Something You Should Know - How Rituals Enrich Your Life & The Simple Science of Being Healthy

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Starting point is 00:00:27 Download June's Journey now on Android or iOS. Today on Something You Should Know, why you probably don't do your best work at work and how to fix that. Then rituals. You have a lot more of them than you realize, and they really do help. One of the things that researchers suggest rituals help us with, if you think of them, they're very orderly, they're very familiar. Rituals give us a sense of being in the here and now and help us to get ready for what's coming instead of often our own minds stressing.

Starting point is 00:00:59 Also, why revenge can be so sweet and how to be healthy, what's proven to work, and the myths to avoid. For example… There's this idea that, for example, you have to do 10,000 steps a day. That's the magic number to be healthy. And if you look into where that number came from, it was actually made up by a Japanese company that was trying to sell pedometers, those things that measure how far you walk. All this today on Something You Should Know. This is an ad for BetterHelp.

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Starting point is 00:02:01 Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hey, hi, welcome, and thank you for taking time out of your day to listen to another episode of Something You Should Know. We start today with a question. Where do you get your best ideas? Or where do you do your best work?

Starting point is 00:02:29 It's probably not at work. Most of us work in an environment that is full of distraction. And distraction saps our creativity and concentration. This is according to Edward Halliwell, who is one of the real gurus on distraction. He's written several books on the subject. And Edward says that when people are asked where they do their best thinking, the number one answer is in the shower.

Starting point is 00:02:56 And usually you don't have any distractions in the shower. When you're distracted from doing something, it isn't just the distraction that's the problem. Once you go back to whatever you were doing before, it takes a while for your brain to get back to where it was. And sometimes it never gets back to where it was. So in order for your mind to work well, you need uninterrupted time, away from all the distractions of everyday life. And that is something you should know.

Starting point is 00:03:29 Your life is full of rituals, even if you don't know it. You shake hands? Ritual. You celebrate holidays? Rituals. Pray? Ritual. In fact, religions are full of rituals. Graduation day? Ritual. Weddings, funerals, ritual, ritual. And there's more.

Starting point is 00:03:48 Many of us have daily rituals we perform. Humans seem to like rituals. Maybe we need them. What role and function do rituals serve? Should we have more rituals? Well, that's what Michael Norton is here to discuss. Michael is a professor of business administration at Harvard Business School, and he is author of the book, The Ritual Effect. Hi, Michael. Welcome to Something You Should Know.

Starting point is 00:04:13 Thanks so much for having me. So I'm curious, first of all, you're a professor of business administration, and you wrote a book about rituals. So bridge that gap for me. I'm a psychologist by training. And so my favorite thing to do is observe very weird things that humans do. And it turns out we do lots of them all the time. So my job is pretty easy. But about a decade ago, I started thinking a lot about a particular type of unusual thing that we do, which are rituals. And I started seeing them in many different places in life. So for sure, we can think of things like holidays and weddings and funerals as all times when rituals bring us together.

Starting point is 00:04:59 But I also started to think about the role of rituals in our own daily lives, the way we get together in the morning the way we might wind down at night what we might do at work when we're nervous for a big meeting and it really started to feel like across all of these domains of life we were turning to ritual as one solution to solve all of these different problems are rituals solving problems or are they just a comfortable kind of guardrail we do see people turning to ritual in particular in times of need so for example speaking of being nervous for a big meeting or a big presentation or if you think of athletes or musical performers who often have extremely elaborate rituals that they do before they serve

Starting point is 00:05:45 or before they sing it does seem to be the case that humans as the stress level goes up we are more likely to bring rituals to bear and we're more likely to have more and more complicated rituals so in the world we can observe really that when we have this problem of anxiety one of the and we can do lots of things, of course, we can meditate, we can take medication, there's lots of solutions to that problem. But one of the things that people seem to do is turn to ritual as one solution. Those elaborate rituals that you sometimes see athletes do before they play a game or run a race or serve a ball, why is it that it seems athletes have these rituals? And many

Starting point is 00:06:27 athletes don't have rituals, at least that we can see, but some have really elaborate ones. So why is that? One of our solutions when we feel anxious that is extremely ineffective is we try to tell ourselves to calm down. So I can say, you know, Mike, this isn't that big of a deal. Just calm down. It's going to be fine. And what the research shows is that that is really one of the worst things you can possibly do because unfortunately that's not how we're built. We can't just tell ourselves to feel a certain way and then magically feel that way. That's the problem that we're trying to solve. So how do we get out of this sometimes doom spiral of anxiety and I'm going to blow it. And now I'm anxious because I tried

Starting point is 00:07:10 to calm down and I can't even calm down. One of the things that researchers suggest rituals help us with, if you think of them, they're very patterned, they're very orderly, they're very familiar. They actually just take up some mental space so that we don't have all of our resources brought to bear on spiraling out of control. Rituals give us a sense of being in the here and now and help us to get ready for what's coming instead of often our own minds stressing. And where, I imagine a million places, but where do rituals tend to come from like when when you see an athlete do his little pre-run ritual where do you get that interestingly so the word ritual itself i think and this was true for me as well it makes us think of traditions uh and you know cultural practices and religious practices with a long history. And those are for sure rituals that have

Starting point is 00:08:06 enormously important meaning in our lives. At the same time, what we see in the research is when we ask people about their own rituals, they come up with them themselves pretty often, actually surprisingly often. So even with something like grief, we'll say, you know, you lost someone you love, what did you do? People will say, well, we went to the funeral or whatever their faith, you know, prescribes for them to do. But I also did this thing privately to honor them. One woman said for a month she listened to her mom's favorite song every morning. Now, there's no historical sense that you should listen to your mom's favorite song. This was something that this woman came up with on her own and we see that very very often that what people are doing is freelancing thinking of things that

Starting point is 00:08:49 are meaningful to them and then building those into their own rituals it doesn't mean they're not using the cultural rituals and the religious rituals as well we still rely on those for a lot but we also can come from the ground up and make up our own. It seems that rituals tend to be solitary. Some are, and then some are with the goal of connecting. So we use them, you know, to calm myself down. For example, if I have to go give a presentation, but teams also will use rituals. For example, before a big sports match, a soccer team or a football team will have their own rituals. And there what they're trying to do is actually bond together.

Starting point is 00:09:28 So again, interestingly, we use them in very different ways in different aspects of our lives. It seems a lot of rituals get passed down, traditions I'm thinking of particularly. But also, I think there's a lot of rituals going on in people's heads and things that they do that they don't talk about. I don't talk about it. You know, Rafael Nadal can stand in public and do his unusual pre-serve rituals on television, and we think nothing of it. For ourselves, we're sort of aware that we shouldn't do that in front of a crowd because they might say something is wrong with Mike. And so we do in fact often do them privately. I mentioned going

Starting point is 00:10:11 into the bathroom to psych yourself up in the mirror. One of the first thing you do when you go in there is check under the stall to make sure nobody's in there so that you can talk to yourself in the way that you need to talk to yourself. So we have this sense of my rituals are private to me. At the same time, there are many rituals that by their nature occur in a group. So if you think of family rituals in the US, you might think of Thanksgiving as a kind of a classic family ritual. There, we all know what Thanksgiving is. There's some sort of turkey involved and the family gets together. But even there there people are choosing their own pies they're choosing what time they eat they're making it their own and imbuing it with their own

Starting point is 00:10:50 traditions so you see often people pulling from history and tradition pulling in some of their own creations and then as you said sometimes those then get passed down so the rituals that i do at thanksgiving with my family my daughter may rituals that I do at Thanksgiving with my family, my daughter may very well do some of those with her family if she chooses to have kids in 30 years. The idea of ritual, I imagine, goes back forever, right? I mean, this is just kind of a human coping thing. The earliest known text, Gilgamesh, actually has rituals in it. So from the very first time that we can see people recording things, we see that people are reporting on their rituals. And in fact, if you think about with archaeology, how we identify that a group of people had a culture, it's very often we look to see if they bury people ceremonially or not. So dinosaurs, the bones are just all over

Starting point is 00:11:46 the place. We know that dinosaurs did not have funerals for each other. There's no pattern to it. But with humans, even thousands and thousands of years ago, we see them burying people very carefully with treasured objects and with care. And that tells us really that that was a very early ritual. And that means that that was a culture or that was a group that mattered to each other. They do go very back, very far back, and they are very deeply embedded in human psychology. But are rituals also inherent in other creatures? The experts are mixed on that for sure. So the closest species that many people believe have rituals are elephants who have what appear to be mourning or grieving rituals.

Starting point is 00:12:36 Not all elephants do this, but if you observe some elephant groups, they will when one of the elephants dies, they will mourn in a sense. They will gather and they will mour someone when one of the elephants dies they will mourn in a sense they will gather and they will mourn publicly in order to grieve the elephant that's gone other people say that's just an instinct you know it gets to be kind of a discussion and a debate but it does seem that humans are the most likely to use them across the most contexts as is very often the case we're very very creative and innovative so we'll take a tool and then use that tool not just for the original purpose, but for all sorts of purposes.

Starting point is 00:13:13 The rituals that are, you know, the tennis player who bounces the ball so many times or those kind of rituals, if you ask the people who do them why they do them, my sense is that there would be some element of good luck in it. And it isn't about thinking about something else. It's like, you know, if I don't do it, or maybe it's that if I don't do it, it'll bring bad luck. But it seems that luck plays a role, or perceived luck plays a role in this.

Starting point is 00:13:50 That's right. And I think that that also points to the fact that it isn't just that rituals are good. So I wish I could say, add 50 rituals to your life and you'll be happy from now on. That really isn't the function that rituals serve. When you ask athletes, for example, about their rituals, they do say, you know what, when I do it, I feel like I'm ready to go, or I feel like I'm in the zone. I feel like I can get done what I needed to get done. However, if they can't do the ritual, if something interrupts them or they don't have time, well, now they're in a worse off state. In fact, they might've been better off to not have a ritual at all because now if they can't

Starting point is 00:14:28 complete their ritual, they feel off. They feel not ready to go. They feel like they can't do the thing that they're supposed to do. So when we have rituals, they have a lot of meaning and emotion built into them. And if we do them the way we wanted to do them, they can be very positive, but they also have this risk where if we can't enact them the way we had hoped, they can in fact have negative consequences. Yeah. Well, I hadn't thought about that, but yeah, I guess, I guess so. But, but that means you better plan time to do your ritual if you want to do your ritual. Exactly. And you saw, you know, in baseball, they instituted a pitch clock and some of the pushback against the pitch clock was,

Starting point is 00:15:09 well, I'm not going to be able to do all my tapping and glove adjusting in time for the next pitch. People really want to make sure they have time to enact those rituals that matter to them. We're talking about the importance of rituals in our lives. My guest is Michael Norton, a professor at Harvard Business School and author of the book, The Ritual Effect. Metrolinks and crosslinks are reminding everyone to be careful as Eglinton Crosstown LRT train testing is in progress. Please be alert as trains can pass at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals. Be careful along our tracks and only make left turns where it's safe to do so.

Starting point is 00:15:46 Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. This winter, take a trip to Tampa on Porter Airlines. Enjoy the warm Tampa Bay temperatures and warm Porter hospitality on your way there. All Porter fares include beer, wine, and snacks, and free fast-streaming Wi-Fi on planes with no middle seats. And your Tampa Bay vacation includes good times, relaxation, and great Gulf Coast weather. Visit flyporter.com and actually enjoy economy. So Michael, ultimately, as important as rituals seem to be, I think if you ask people, you know, if you do that thing where you do, you know, bounce the ball or whatever it is, we all know it doesn't really do anything, you know, scientifically. And yet we cling to them. If you look very broadly at the function of rituals, it's sometimes the case that we are enacting a ritual with some goal in mind.

Starting point is 00:16:49 And sometimes we actually achieve that goal. But at other times, we're enacting a ritual and it ends up actually helping in a different way. So one example of this that I find very interesting are rain dances, rain rituals. In cultures where there's drought, many independent times, humans have come up with the idea of some sort of dance or ritual to try to encourage rain. Now, we know that it is, at least we have no evidence that our movements on the ground will cause it to rain. So why would so many cultures engage in these sorts of activities? And of course, one reason is that in times of drought what happens is social conflict starts to happen with scarce resources i don't take care of you you

Starting point is 00:17:31 don't take care of me and the kind of fabric starts to fray of our society when you engage in these rituals together what you're saying is we have a shared history together we are a people and by the way people have been doing this for hundreds and thousands of years and they got through it also. So maybe we can get through it as well. So you can see that the, they're trying to make it rain and that's probably not going to work, but by enacting these rituals, they're actually accomplishing an incredibly important goal, which is making sure that we stay together rather than drift apart. Well, that's interesting because that only comes when you, it seems like when you look back on it and kind of understand and explain it, but you wonder if the people doing the dance are thinking

Starting point is 00:18:19 that, or are they thinking, God, I hope this makes it rain. It's so interesting to think about the inside the ritual versus observing the ritual whether the experience is the same or not in fact if you think about um as a social scientist if I observe um a religious ceremony I'm Irish Catholic so if I observe a Catholic Mass everyone in the church is engaged in the exact same actions you know we kneel at the same time we stand at the same time etc but for some of the people in the church that is an incredibly deep reflection of their faith it connects them with their you know grandparents who had faith as well it connects them with their spirituality it may be one of the most important things they do in their

Starting point is 00:19:03 life and literally the person sitting next to them might be there because their parents made them go. They're doing the exact same actions, but for one person, they are getting this enormous benefit out of it. And the other person can't wait to leave. And I think that's quite important because it means that it isn't just that it's the specific movements that cause something to be a ritual and be meaningful. It's the meaning that we bring to it often that imbues rituals with their power. It does seem, well, let me ask you, does it seem that there are plenty of people who probably have few, if any rituals, I imagine that this isn't a real thing for them.

Starting point is 00:19:43 So I was a skeptic of rituals. I mean, I'm supposed to be a scientist and this sort of thing. And so the word ritual for me also was I was a bit skeptical of it. I will say when people say I don't have any rituals, the first thing to do is ask your spouse or your children or your coworkers, and they may very well tell you that you've got some that you weren't aware of. But I think the other thing is that it depends how you define them. So if I say, have you ever been out and had liquid in a glass and everyone around the table lifted up the glass and clicked them together and said a one or two word phrase? Nearly everyone says, oh yeah,

Starting point is 00:20:24 of course, know cheers or in gaelic slancha you know whatever your language is and i say well why did you do that and they say oh i see doesn't have a functional purpose to clink your glasses all you're trying to do is in a sense drink something out of a glass but we do these rituals and you can of course we see the benefit of it we're connecting we're celebrating other. The words that we use often mean luck or health or good wishes to each other. It's just liquid in a glass. But with ritual, we can turn it into something that's a little deeper. And when you start thinking of your life like that, people say, you know what?

Starting point is 00:20:57 I actually do, of course, have rituals that I engage in that not only do I engage in them, but I actually like them. And I think that they're helpful. Well, I think church is a good example of, I think one of the reasons people go and find comfort is in the rituals that the rituals mean something to them. I do think that there's something in us that really responds to ritual. And we found the oddly named Seattle Atheist Church. So if you think about atheist church don't usually go together very well, but what's the Seattle Atheist Church? It's a group of people who gather together often in a church who enact many of the same

Starting point is 00:21:39 behaviors. For many people, religion is very important to them because it connects them with other people. So by having a religious service, in a sense, you can connect with others. The Seattle Atheist Church wanted to keep all of those good things about religious services. They just happened to not want to include the part about God or a higher power. Well, just in everyday life, I mean, just think every time you greet somebody for the first time you shake hands or you hug fist bump do you high five do you hug we have do you bow we have all of these across the world very specific greeting rituals that we use but the thing that you see is all cultures have one in other words we've decided that when we meet someone, we do something to signify that we're meeting. It just varies really widely from place to place. I find it really interesting that during COVID, people were saying, you know, the handshake is dead, that we just can't do that anymore. We're just spreading germs. And when it was appropriate, the handshake came roaring back because people just weren't

Starting point is 00:23:07 going to have that. And even during COVID, you could imagine that during a situation like that, you might say, well, let's just dispense with this thing altogether. If we can't shake hands or hug, let's just not do anything. But that's not what we did. We came up with a brand new one, which was bumping elbows, which did not exist before and really doesn't exist anymore. But it shows how strong the urge was to engage in some kind of greeting ritual rather than just have nothing there that we, we literally humans invented a new way to greet that they had not used before when pressed. Well, it's so clear listening to you and looking at this through your eyes, how important rituals are really to the point of it seems like we need them, we crave them. They're like guardrails to help us navigate life.

Starting point is 00:23:59 And they're probably a lot more important than people think they are. I've been speaking with Michael Norton. He is a professor of business administration at Harvard Business School. And the name of his book is The Ritual Effect. And there is a link to that book in the show notes. I appreciate you coming on and talking about this. Thank you, Michael. Thank you very much.

Starting point is 00:24:20 If people are interested, you can go to michaelnorton.com. And there's a rituals quiz that you can take to figure out if you have a lot or have a little. This episode is brought to you by Melissa and Doug. Wooden puzzles and building toys for problem solving and arts and crafts for creative thinking. Melissa and Doug makes toys that help kids take on the world because the way they play today shapes who they become tomorrow.

Starting point is 00:24:44 Melissa and Doug, the play is pretend, the skills are real. Look for Melissa and Doug wherever you shop for toys. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more.

Starting point is 00:25:20 A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. You already know that exercise and a healthy diet are important to maintain your weight, stay healthy, and live longer. Everybody knows that.

Starting point is 00:26:08 But putting it into practice and sustaining it, that is a real challenge. Here with some really great advice to get you and keep you motivated is Jacob Sager Weinstein. He is a writer whose work has appeared in The New Yorker

Starting point is 00:26:23 and on HBO and the BBC, and he is author of a book called Be Healthier Now, 100 Simple Ways to Become Instantly Healthier. Hey, Jacob, welcome to Something You Should Know. Thanks for having me. Glad to be here. So before we get into the specific advice, what is the general outlook, your philosophy? What are you saying to people about getting healthy? So I think there's, broadly speaking, two different ways of framing the idea of health. If you say, Jacob, tell me about your health, I could say, well, I'm a 52-year-old guy

Starting point is 00:26:59 with mild asthma. And that's true, that's accurate, because I'm answering in terms of what I am. But it's not very useful because I cannot change what I am. But if instead I say, well, I got a good night's sleep, I had a healthy breakfast, I took a 30-minute walk after lunch and had more energy when I was done than when I began, then I'm framing my health in terms of not what I am, but what I do. And I find that a much more useful way to look at it because I can change what I do at any moment. So I think if there's one big takeaway people take, I'd like it to be that. But the goal is what? To be healthy is always a journey or, I mean, obviously you can't stop, but what does it mean to be healthy? Well, the funny thing is that, you know, I said, don't frame it in terms of what you are, but if you do enough, if you frame in terms of what you do and you do enough of those things, then it does change what you are. You become healthier. You have more energy, you live longer, you're less likely to get a heart attack or a dementia. So for me,

Starting point is 00:28:04 the ultimate goal of anything you do to be healthy is to get more pleasure out of life. And that might be from living longer, and it might be from being healthier and more with it while you're there. So how does someone decide what to do first and what to do that will actually sustain them, that will allow them to keep doing whatever it is they're doing so that they do become healthy. I'll dive into the nuts and bolts, but let me give you two big picture things that guide me. One of them is to think of health as an ongoing experiment. So if you're supposed to eat vegetables and you eat a vegetable and you don't like it, don't conclude you don't like vegetables. Conclude, I don't like this specific vegetable prepared in this specific way. I'll give you a really, maybe this is a weird different kinds of apples. There's Cox, Pippin, Gala, Delicious. And having one apple doesn't tell you anything about whether you like even other apples, let alone whether you like

Starting point is 00:29:11 fruits. Same with exercise. If you try some sort of exercise and you don't like it, that's an experiment. It successfully told you one kind of exercise that you don't like. But that shouldn't be the end of the experiment. It's a first step. And that ties into the second overall point that I think is really crucial, which is the value of incremental change. That you are not going to become an athlete by trying one athletic activity today. You might not even like it, like I said. But if you try it, whether or not you like it, you've moved yourself one step closer to having a sport or an exercise that you actively enjoy. And if you keep taking those steps, keep experimenting to find something you like, and then once you like it, gradually and sustainably increasing what you're doing, you are on a path that will take you to a much healthier and more sustainable place than if you just said,

Starting point is 00:30:06 okay, I'm going to do 30 minutes of this thing I hate and just grind through it. What I've noticed is that a lot of people, and I've done this in my life too, dabble in healthy. They, you know, buy an exercise bike, ride it for three days, and that's the end of that. Or they start walking after dinner for a couple of weeks and that's the end of that. And then they don't really do anything else. They just decide exercise is not for me and give up. Right. Which is totally natural and understandable. So let me dive into a few specifics because one thing that can help you keep up with it is if it's a habit, right? Obviously habits by by their nature, by definition, are things you don't even think about doing.

Starting point is 00:30:49 You just do them. So I've experimented. I found that running is a sport that I generally enjoy, but even so, it's effort. And it's not always easy for me to stick with it. So as silly as it sounds, I found that if I take my running clothes out at night and I put them where I'm going to see them first thing in the morning and just automatically put them on while I'm sleepy and not thinking clearly, then just the fact that I've got those running clothes on makes me much more likely to go running. And in a sense, what I've done is I've made each step smaller. I don't have to decide to go running, find my clothes, get going. I've made as many of those steps mindless and automatic. I just get in the habit of putting out my running clothes in the morning. And it shouldn't make a difference. Like the health benefits of exercise should get me going every day. But as silly as it sounds,

Starting point is 00:31:42 just the habit of already being dressed for running makes a huge difference. So let's talk about your concept of thinking healthy. Because I think people often think healthy is something you do in between the fun stuff. Yes. Rather than incorporating it because, as we discussed, healthy doesn't necessarily equate to fun. So maybe a shift in mindset is important. So let's talk about thinking healthy. One thing that I think is a useful distinction is between physical activity and exercise.

Starting point is 00:32:20 And we think about exercise, like we've been saying, as this unpleasant thing that you've got to do if you don't want to die. But the fact is, if I spend 10 minutes running dutifully just doing stuff, the chasing the dog, I actually enjoy and it's just as good for me. So the more you can find ways to think in terms of physical activity. So for example, when you park, if you drive to work, take the farthest parking space from your office rather than looking for the closest. And automatically, you've now built in a few extra minutes of walking into your day. If your building has multiple floors, get in the habit of pushing the button in the elevator for one floor below where you actually want to go and walk up that last flight of steps. It still counts. Even if you're not in the gym in your sports clothes, that's physical activity that is good for your body. But how good?

Starting point is 00:33:32 That's the thing I think a lot of people struggle with is going up one flight of stairs really going to matter. So screw it. And I think sometimes there's certain myths that get in our way. So there's this idea that, for example, you have to do 10,000 steps a day. That's the magic number to be healthy. And if you look into where that number came from, it was actually made up by a Japanese company that was trying to sell pedometers, those things that measure how far you walk. And it wasn't really based on any science. When they've actually done real studies of this, they found that going up to about 4,400 steps a day has a big jump in your life expectancy. And if you keep going past that, if you go up to about 7,500 steps, that gets better for you with every step.

Starting point is 00:34:15 But once you actually hit that 7,500 steps, it doesn't hurt you to keep walking. But there's not really any gains they've seen in life expectancy beyond that. And even more broadly, what they've often found is that there's diminishing returns with almost any exercise you do, which means that the most benefits you get are when you start doing it. So if you walk up two flights of steps, that's better than one. But if you walk up one flight of steps, you've still gotten most of the benefits or a good chunk of those benefits just from that one flight. And most importantly, you've gotten more can add an extra flight once a week or once a month, then over the course of the year, that really adds up. If you can just do a little bit healthier stuff today than you did last week, that really adds up. One of the things that sabotages people, I think, is, well, it's food because, you know, if you have it in the house, you're going to eat it.

Starting point is 00:35:24 And if you don't have it in the house, you're not going to eat it. And so talk about the hot-cold empathy gap and how that works. It's a weird quirk of human nature that when you're full, it's surprisingly hard to predict how you'll behave when you're hungry. And that seems to be true of all emotions. If you're calm, it's harder to predict how you'll be when you're hungry. And that seems to be true of all emotions. If you're calm, it's harder to predict how you'll be when you're angry. Believe it or not, they've actually done a study where they had people study things underwater while scuba diving, and they found they could remember them better when they went scuba diving again than they could on dry land. There's just something about our brains that has a hard time picturing ourselves and how we'll react

Starting point is 00:36:01 in other circumstances. So where that comes into health and healthy eating is if you're at the grocery store and you're feeling full, you're going there after lunch, and you see a big bag of candy, you think about, well, you think about how you feel in that moment. And because you're full, you can resist that big bag of candy. So you think, I'll go get home. I'll have one piece every day. It'll be fine. Then the next day, when you're actually hungry, you eat fistfuls of it. And you think, why didn't I know I was going to do this? Why did yesterday me do this to me? And it's because yesterday me was in a different state of mind. And to some degree, that's inevitable. It's just part of human nature. But there are some things you can do to

Starting point is 00:36:42 get around it. If you have plans for what you're going to buy, try making those plans when you're hungry and seeing how you feel, seeing what you think you're going to do. If you make plans while you're full, take another look at them later when you're hungry. And if you are shopping when you're full, then think about, okay, last time I was hungry, how did I react to this bag of candy? And if I reacted badly, why do I think I'm going to do things differently this time? And that's maybe as close as you can then get to picturing yourself in that alternate decision-making state. Yeah, that is such an interesting thing is when you are full, it's like so hard to imagine hunger. It's like, well, I'm so full I can't eat for days. But that's not true. And you'll be eating again soon. But it is that weird quirk that we can't imagine ourselves in the state we're not in at the moment. And sometimes the best you can do is to, what I would say, lay healthy traps for yourself.

Starting point is 00:37:49 So I got to a point at one point where if I was writing, if I would stop and think, I'd get up and wander around my flat and I'd end up in my kitchen grabbing a fistful of chocolate chips. And I knew I was going to do that. And so even though I couldn't stop myself from being hungry at that moment, what I could do in a more rational moment was move the chocolate chips out of reach and put a bowl of washed grapes in my fridge right at eye level. And so I would still do that thing where I would get up, walk to the kitchen, open the fridge. But the thing that was right in front of me, the thing that was easiest to grab, was now a healthy snack.

Starting point is 00:38:30 And I was able to sort of hack my hot-cold empathy gap by doing that. Something that I'd like you to address, and this is something that I think happens to everybody who tries to get healthy. They're going to eat healthier. They're going to exercise. They're going to eat healthier. They're going to exercise. They're going to do something. And inevitably, they fall off the wagon. Something goes wrong and they don't do what they thought they were going to do. And then they throw in the towel.

Starting point is 00:38:57 Okay. So they actually did a study of 60,000 gym members to find out when they stopped showing up to the gym or when they missed one workout session, what was the most effective incentive to get them to come back to another. And I mentioned that it was 60,000 people involved in this study, because when I tell you the results, you're not going to believe it. So I want to emphasize this was a big study. And the thing that got people to go back after missing a workout was a payment of nine cents, which is insane. Again, increasing your lifespan, improving your health, that's not an incentive to get back on it and get back to the gym. But nine cents is.

Starting point is 00:39:41 And I can tell you in my own experience, when I've had really like little crazy, small things of accountability like that, it does work. And maybe it's because it's so small, it feels almost silly. And you just want to, it makes you just want to say, okay, I, I'm going to go back to it, but it does seem to work. So what you can do and what people do sometimes is they make bets with friends. They make accountability bets where you and I make a deal. I say, I'm going to go to the gym three times every week. And if I don't, I'm going to

Starting point is 00:40:17 owe you 25 cents. And obviously the 25 cents is not a financial incentive, but maybe the embarrassments, the silliness of having to actually pay you that quarter could be enough to get me to go back to the gym when I miss it. You know, I know there's advice about when you should exercise, but the best advice I've ever heard about when you should exercise is to exercise when you can. And if it's in the afternoon and you can stick to that, great. If it's in the morning, great. If it's at night, great. As long as you do it is better than not doing it. Absolutely.

Starting point is 00:40:53 And I think that's true about most fitness advice in general. It seems like, you know, every year some new superfood hits the headlines of this specific berry is the best berry for you. But I kind of think that, you know, the healthy food that you will actually enjoy and eat is the the best berry for you. But I kind of think that the healthy food that you will actually enjoy and eat is the best healthy food for you. Now, I am happy to talk about some of the science about what time of day to exercise if that's interesting. But I do agree with you that the far and away best time to exercise is whenever you can work it into your schedule. But assuming you're available, what's the science say about time of day?

Starting point is 00:41:28 Okay, so there is some evidence that exercising in the morning before you've had any food may help you burn more fat. There is some evidence that exercising either in the afternoon or right after you've had a meal may help you control blood sugar. There is definite evidence that doing vigorous exercise less than an hour before you're going to bed will make it harder for you to sleep. So based on all those things, depending on what you do or don't want, if you have the flexibility, that might help you schedule your exercise. I've always found it interesting how many people just, you know, really can't find the motivation or the desire to do things to improve their health until they get some bad news from the doctor, or maybe a good friend or family member gets some bad news from the doctor,

Starting point is 00:42:22 that it's that dreadful news that works to motivate. Yeah, it definitely is another weird quirk of human nature. And I think the flip side, insofar as you can make it work for you, is to try to remember in the good times where you're not facing a disaster, what you want to exercise for or what you want to be healthy for. You know, there's a classic story of the guy who wants to quit smoking. So in the pocket where he would normally keep his packet of cigarettes, he puts a photo of his daughter. And every time he automatically reaches for a cigarette, he ends up with that photo and he remembers why he wants to quit. And even if you're not trying to quit something,

Starting point is 00:43:00 if you're trying to start something, I think that can help too. If you want to exercise, not just because of some vague idea that it's good for you or you're supposed to, but you want to exercise so you can be hiking with your grandchildren when you're 80, or if you want to exercise so you can visit that city you've dreamed of visiting a year from now and have the energy to walk around all day, I think sometimes having a specific positive image in mind can help keep you going. So talk about some other things that you have in doing your research for this and found that maybe people haven't heard before of some advice that run through like three or four tips that people could use. Sure.

Starting point is 00:43:43 So something that really changed the way I eat. For most of my life, I have been a really fast eater. I just wolfed down my food, which is a bad habit I picked up as a teenager and carried through my whole life. So I saw the advice, and as simple as it is, it's made a big difference to me, to put down my fork while I'm chewing. So I pick up the fork, I put the food in my mouth, and I put the fork down till I'm ready for the next bite. And as simple as that is, that has made me a much more mindful eater. I eat more slowly. I noticed as a result of eating slowly when I'm full, so I eat less. And I'm not just mindlessly shoveling the next bite into my mouth. So I'm actually

Starting point is 00:44:25 enjoying my food more than I was before. And to me, something like that, like mindful eating, which isn't just healthy, but actually is pleasurable, that makes me enjoy food more rather than less, is the kind of health advice that I love to find, that I think we're all seeking out. Along those lines, another tip is I think we have this stereotype that healthy food is bland. And that's because too much salt, too much sugar, too much fat. Yes, those are all bad for you. If you have too much, you need to cut them down. But most herbs, pretty much almost any herb you can name, basil, cumin, oregano, they're actually healthy for you.

Starting point is 00:45:05 Garlic, onions, those are things that are good for your heart. There's evidence that they can reduce the risk of cancer. There's evidence that chili, fresh chili, changes your taste buds in a way that makes you crave less salt. Now, I'm a wimp when it comes to spicy foods, so I can't follow this tip myself, but if you like spicy foods and you can substitute chili for salt, that's a virtuous cycle. The more you do it, the less salt you will crave, and chili itself is healthy as well. I will say another bit of good news is that if you like coffee and tea, there is evidence that those are probably

Starting point is 00:45:46 on the balance good for you. If you have too much, you lose sleep, you get stressed, but generally about two to five cups a day of coffee or tea are actively good for you. They reduce the risk of dementia. They reduce the risk of stroke. There was one study that moderate coffee intake actually made people less likely to commit suicide. So there's evidence that it improves your outlook. So those are things that people sometimes think of as vices that are actually virtues. Well, what I like about your advice and suggestions, they're fact-based, so they're backed by science, but they're also relatively simple. They take some commitment, but not a lot to put your toe in the water. I think it makes the whole idea of trying to be

Starting point is 00:46:32 more healthy pretty easy. I've been talking to Jacob Sager Weinstein. He is a writer whose work has appeared on HBO and the BBC and The New Yorker, and he is author of a book called Be Healthier Now, 100 Simple Ways to Become Instantly Healthier. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks for being here, Jacob. Okay, thanks. I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me. You've heard the saying that revenge is sweet. Well, when you think about it, revenge is kind of harsh. So why is it considered sweet? Well, scientists say that just the thought of revenge lights up the feel-good regions of our brains. What they did was hook up some people to a scan and then played some games. When one player was cheated, that player was given the option to punish their opponent,

Starting point is 00:47:26 and the thought of doing that proved to be scientifically sweet, stimulating the same areas in the brain that sex and chocolate affect. Sometimes, players even opted for revenge at their own peril, proving that revenge can cloud our judgment. And that is something you should know. I'd love it if you would share this episode just, you know, in the next day or two, when you have a moment, share this episode right there on the app that you're listening to. There's some way, easy way to, there's a share button, there's an easy way to share it and send it to

Starting point is 00:48:01 someone you know. I'm Mike Kerr Brothers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity.

Starting point is 00:48:36 The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook. Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts.

Starting point is 00:49:25 Contained herein are the heresies of Rudolf Buntwine. To be continued... is not a loving God, and we are not its favored children. The Heresies of Randolph Bantwine, wherever podcasts are available.

Something You Should Know - How Rituals Enrich Your Life & The Simple Science of Being Healthy

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