Something You Should Know - How Smells Impact Your Thoughts and Actions & Why People Get Burned Out

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Starting point is 00:00:17 You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, got a big decision to make? Maybe you should wash your hands first. Then, what you never knew about your sense of smell. You can smell when snow is coming and you can smell emotions.

Starting point is 00:00:45 Oh, that's so interesting. Scientists have studied three in particular. Joy, fear, and disgust are discernible through smell. You can smell when snow is coming and it's a sort of three-part thing. And it is indeed pretty accurate. Also, listening to your gut instinct may sound like a good way to make a decision, but it can steer you wrong. And burnout. A lot of people get burned out at work. So you don't burn out because there's something wrong with you. Rather, you burn out more because there's something wrong with the way your company operates. And ultimately, with the way we tend to overvalue work.

Starting point is 00:01:26 All this today on Something You Should Know. This is an ad for better help. Welcome to the world. Please read your personal owner's manual thoroughly. In it, you'll find simple instructions for how to interact with your fellow human beings and how to find happiness and peace of mind. Thank you, and have a nice life. Unfortunately, life doesn't come with an owner's manual. That's why there's BetterHelp Online Therapy. Connect with a credentialed therapist by phone, video, or online chat. Visit betterhelp.com to learn more. That's betterhelp.com. Something you should know. Fascinating intel, the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers.

Starting point is 00:02:15 Hi there. Welcome. It's time for another episode of Something You Should Know. Before too long, you will probably have a big decision to make. We all have big decisions to make. So before you buy that new car or even before you decide what restaurant to go to, here's a suggestion. Wash your hands. It could actually change your decision. You see, human beings tend to repeat past decisions instead of trying something new.

Starting point is 00:02:47 But a study found that if you wash your hands, you can override that process. Researchers say that the reason it works is because when you wash your hands, it's pretty much of a mindless activity that can have a subconscious wiping-the-slate-clean effect. It can help reset the thought process to focus on current needs and separate that from past decisions and influences. It almost sounds too simple, but the research says it works. And that is something you should know. How does smell work? We've discussed your sense of smell before here on this podcast, but not in the way we're about to.

Starting point is 00:03:33 Today, we're going to look at questions like, what happens that allows you to smell something in the first place? Why do you like some smells but hate others? Can you actually smell an emotion, like fear? Why do some smells conjure up a memory? Are there smells we cannot detect? Or if something gives off an odor, can we smell it? These are some of the interesting questions explored by Jude Stewart. Jude is a writer who really got in touch with her sense of smell as she researched

Starting point is 00:04:06 her book Revelations in Air, a guidebook to smell, and she's here to discuss things about your sense of smell that you likely never knew but have probably wondered about. Hi Jude, welcome to Something You Should Know. Oh hi, thanks for having me Mike. I suspect most of us haven't really thought a lot about our sense of smell and what it does and why we have it. And what is it? What is smell? Yeah, I think it's weird because there's a feeling sometimes that smells are subliminal and that they're creepy and that they're going to act on you and make you buy stuff you don't want to buy or what have you. And I think that's, it's more than we're just not paying attention to it. And, you know, because we're not clued in,

Starting point is 00:04:49 and we're not aware of how smell is shaping our environment or our associations. And because it's not related to our verbal parts of our brain, we can't always put words to why smells make us feel a certain way. It feels a little upsetting in that way, but I wanted to really tap into that by getting to understand more about how my sense of smell works and how it's shaping my perceptions. So how does it work? Well, really quickly, it basically is a process of you're perceiving airborne chemicals. That's why smell exists, is to help us understand information about our environment that might prove to be a threat or an opportunity. So, you know, if you have a fire in the distance, you want to perceive it before you come upon the fire. If you're going to eat some

Starting point is 00:05:33 food that is off, you want to know right away that it's off and smell is helping you. So briefly, it's just that the odor molecules go up your nose and they travel up in there. And then they go to the place where your glasses sit on the nose of your face. And that's where you have these olfactory neurons. They are attached to your brain. They're the closest your brain gets to touching the outside world. And inside them are these little receptors and the receptors bind to the odorant and they tell you what the smell is. And what's crazy about that is that we don't really know why we perceive them as they are. There's not really a kind of an equivalent to the color spectrum for different colors or the audio spectrum where we can tell what a sound's going

Starting point is 00:06:13 to be because of where it falls in that continuum. We don't have that for smell. So something about the molecule shape will let us know what it's going to smell like, but you can change that shape a little tiny bit and the smell will shift in this unexpected way. So it's still really early days in sulfaction studies. It's pretty interesting. Well, that brings up an interesting question because we can only see colors in the visual color spectrum, but can we smell infinite smells? Are there things that perhaps aren't even invented yet or created yet that will have a smell that we've never smelled? Would we be able to smell that? Yes, that's a great question. We still don't know yet how many different smells we can distinguish between. The estimates range between 80 million and possibly 1 trillion smells, which is theoretical and a little disputed, but still possible.

Starting point is 00:07:06 I found it amazing to think that unlike colors, we can invent new smells. And in fact, not only is that possible, but it's happening all the time. There's a whole industry of fragrance and flavor chemists who are cooking up smells in the lab that don't exist in nature, these molecules, but somehow we can perceive them as a smell. And the reasons why you would do that are, you know, many different reasons. One of them is obviously that you want to make things that are novel and smell good. That's the biggest motivation, but sometimes it's to synthesize smells that we find in nature that are perhaps some exotic plant that could be hunted to extinction to make perfumes, or you can take the smell molecules, synthesize them in the lab, and then have that smell forever to enjoy. Sometimes they're purely

Starting point is 00:07:49 accidents. There's a really popular invented smell called calone that I think was created when somebody was trying to come up with a cure for a disease and it didn't work as such, but the molecule smelled really great and it smells like ocean breeze. So anytime you have that shampoo or care products that smells like the ocean, that's probably has calone in it. How do you spell that? C-A-L-O-N-E. Is smell completely subjective or are there smells that are universally loved and universally hated? It's more universally loved than universally hated. It's interesting. Smell is all about what you associate smells with. So obviously there are certain things that none of us like the smell of. The smell of death is not great. Most people don't like the smell of poop,

Starting point is 00:08:36 but it's surprising what you'll habituate to too. If you're used to the smell of trash in the streets, then you're not going to notice it after a while. There was some interesting science around trying to find the most universal stink bomb. And what they discovered is it was harder to do than they thought. I think this was sponsored by the army as a potential military tactic. The one thing that seemed to be surefire is making sure you had some weird combination of smells that didn't resolve well. On the flip side, a smell that is pretty much universally loved or at least not disliked is vanilla. And the reasons for that are pretty simple. Vanilla doesn't have itself usually a starring role in things we eat, but it has a great supporting role. It makes other flavors elevate and just taste better. So that's why pretty much

Starting point is 00:09:23 every baked good that we make, it has a little dash of vanilla extract in there. The second reason is that vanilla does not activate some things that make us dislike smells. We have this system of nerves in our face called the trigeminal nerve, and they are activated through smelling. When you smell something that has like stinging hot chili peppers, or when you chop up onions and you cry. This is your trigeminal nerve being activated. Vanilla doesn't activate that at all. And some people don't like that feeling. And that's why they will dislike a certain smell. So vanilla has the main obstacle removed.

Starting point is 00:09:57 It always seems to me that the reason that I like smells, when I think about the smells that I like, is they're associated with a time or a place or a person or something that, I don't love a smell that isn't. I mean, I might like a smell that I smell and go, well, that smells nice, but I don't have that attachment to it that I do when I think of cut grass and I think of my father mowing the lawn or my grandma baking in the kitchen. It's really interesting with smell is that there's sort of a biological basis for that. When you're smelling things, unlike the other senses, your smell bypasses all that sort of

Starting point is 00:10:37 neocortex, higher order logic verbalization part of your brain, and instead goes right past that new brain into your old brain. And there's specifically two areas that it's associated with the amygdala, which is responsible for emotion and hippocampus, which is responsible for memory. So if you think about it, if you have a really important event in your life, you generally feel emotional about that event. And if you happen to smell something in that moment, those three things will fuse, the smell, the memory, and the emotion. And then every time you smell that smell, you will bring all those feelings and emotions back with incredible clarity.

Starting point is 00:11:16 You say that you can smell emotions. What do you mean? Oh, that's so interesting. Scientists have studied three in particular. Joy, fear, and disgust are discernible through smell. One fun experiment had two groups, and they each watched a different movie. One group watched Disney's The Jungle Book, so a very cheerful, joyful-inducing type of movie. And then another movie was Stanley Kubrick's The Shining. So it's a movie that elicits fear. So these folks were all wearing t-shirts, the t-shirts were removed, and then they were given to another group. And the question was, can you smell the t-shirts that are associated with fear and the ones that are associated with joy? And the answer is overwhelmingly yes, that people were able to detect those things through smell alone. I want to talk about how we can smell emotions,

Starting point is 00:12:05 because I think that's really interesting. I'm talking to Jude Stewart, and she is author of a book called Revelations in Air, a guidebook to smell. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue.

Starting point is 00:12:47 It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named the Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast.

Starting point is 00:13:19 The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool.

Starting point is 00:14:08 And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. So Jude, I've heard people talk about how animals can smell fear. You know, don't let them smell your, don't be afraid, don't let them smell the fear. But I didn't know that humans could do it. Yeah, there's another smell researcher whose name is Rachel Hertz.

Starting point is 00:14:46 She's written a book called The Scent of Desire. And in that, she says that smells are to animals what emotions are to people. So if you think about how important it is for us to understand each other's emotions as humans, that's so critical to communications. Animals are using smells in the same way, but we are also animals. So we are to some extent using a smell in that sense as well. It was interesting to read in your book that you can smell when it's going to snow. And see, I've always thought you could, but I thought it was just me. Isn't that so nice to have those hunches confirmed. You can smell when snow is coming and there's a, it's a sort of three part thing. The first is that cold tends to deaden your sense of smell.

Starting point is 00:15:30 So what you're registering first off is the cold and that blankness and into that blankness will be a sudden rise in humidity. And that's the precipitation coming. And then the third thing that you'll notice is again, those trigeminal nerves in your face will start to tingle and activate. So those three sensations together help you predict snow. And it is indeed pretty accurate. I never knew that you could trademark smells. And in fact, that Play-Doh, the smell of Play-Doh is actually trademarked. This is correct.

Starting point is 00:16:04 This is absolutely correct. I wanted to look at Play-Doh because I thought, oh, it's an iconic childhood smell and it'd be great for emotions and nostalgia. And what I didn't realize is that it's one of the very few trademark smells. And I had to figure out, I had to learn a bit about the difference

Starting point is 00:16:21 between a trademark and a patent. A patent has to do with the product's functionality, like does it do the thing that it promised to do? And a trademark doesn't have to do with functionality. It has to do with those intangible qualities like, is this the real thing? So when you're smelling Play-Doh, what you're smelling is the fact that it's the actual Play-Doh and not some kind of imitation. Is the smell put in there deliberately to smell that way, or is it a byproduct of what the Play-doh and not some kind of imitation. Is the smell put in there deliberately to smell that way, or is it a by-product of what the play-doh is made of? It's both. You can actually look up the trademark online and see what they describe as the smell notes. But yeah, it's a

Starting point is 00:16:57 combination of the actual ingredients, but then also a few additives that are actually like vanilla and cherry notes. So the next time you pick up your Play-Doh, maybe see if you can sniff for those notes, but you also notice some like kind of damp doughy quality. It has a bit of salt to it. Those are actual ingredients of the product. I wonder, can you like distill that in a bottle? Can you, can they make Play-Doh perfume?

Starting point is 00:17:22 Oh, Mike, you can distill everything in a bottle. Every smell is potentially synthesizable and probably has. I mean, there are some very interesting perfumes out there. I think Odea Play-Doh is probably out there. Really? Odea Play-Doh. What are some of the smells that you find particularly fascinating? I really enjoyed, I really liked some stinks. I wanted to learn

Starting point is 00:17:46 things about perfume ingredients and spices and pleasant smells and certainly didn't want to overload the book with stinks. But I also wanted to get to know some things that people like that they maybe shouldn't like as smells. Gasoline and skunk were two of those that I kind of dove into. A stink that I kind of set out to learn, to be friends with, was the smell of durian. It's this really, really smelly kind of spiked fruit that comes from Southeast Asia, from Malaysia in particular. And it smells like rotting onions. There's some very vivid descriptions of it. It smells very gross. And then when you open it up, though, it has this beautiful custardy center and a really high sugar content. So people tend to make it into ice cream. And it is the weirdest ice cream I think I've ever had. It never fully resolves the weirdness of the smell and

Starting point is 00:18:35 sweetness and the wonderful custardy, velvety texture. And it's so weird. You just keep getting hits of strangeness when you eat it. I eventually just became very hooked on it. You mentioned gasoline, okay? I like the smell of gasoline, and I know why. Because my earliest memories of gasoline, the smell of gasoline, was more or less combined with fresh-cut grass, because my father used to fill up the lawnmower with gasoline, and then he would cut the grass.

Starting point is 00:19:04 And those two smells are linked for me. And so I like the smell of gasoline. I mean, I don't crave the smell of gasoline, but I don't find it objectionable. I find it rather pleasant, but I guess most people don't. Oh, you know, actually, I think a lot of people do secretly like it. But interestingly, it does but, but interestingly, it does have, like many solvents have this influence over your nervous system that's similar to being drunk. So do not huff a lot of gasoline is bad for you, but nonetheless,

Starting point is 00:19:34 it is sort of giving you a high. But I'm with you. I went on a lot of road trips as a kid. And, you know, to me, the smell of gasoline is like travel and adventure and, you know, footloose and fancy free in the car. So it's a good association for me. Well, and, you know, speaking of my father, cigars are a good example to me of I don't like cigars. I can't stand the smell of cigars. And it's specifically because when I was young, my father, when we would be driving, my father would be smoking a cigar occasionally.

Starting point is 00:20:07 But the smell was just horrible. And ever since then, I can't stand cigars. But other people love the smell of cigars. You know, it's funny because I am a fan of the smell of tobacco before it's been burnt. I really like that tin note. And I think it has to do, again, with associations. You know, a friend of mine during COVID was, he was supposed to move overseas to his dream job. And then at the last minute he couldn't go

Starting point is 00:20:32 and he was stuck here. And so he would come over and he took a pipe smoking just to kind of pass the time. And he had all these beautiful pipes and beautiful tins. And he told me about how smell is so important that there's literally this concept of the tin note, the smell in the tin or the room note, whether or not it leaves a beautiful or objectionable smell in the room. And it was such so bound up in his enthusiasm that I became really keen on the smell of tobacco, but you know, it was voluntary. I wasn't stuck in a tiny car. I defend your position. I think you were right not to like it. It's probably not so nice to make you smell it that much.

Starting point is 00:21:10 It's interesting to me how people take their sense of smell for granted. I equate it with electricity. You don't realize how important electricity is until there's a power failure, and then you realize how essential it is and you don't realize how important your sense of smell is until you lose it and with covid especially but also just as people get older your sense of smell sometimes fades away temporarily or or maybe permanently and then you really miss it. And that's why I think partly it's important to kind of maximize, use it or lose it, maximize on what you've got, you know, and become kind of attuned to the smell that you have.

Starting point is 00:21:56 But yeah, that is unfortunately kind of common. And one of the reasons why people tend to eat, you know, saltier food when they get older is because they're not smelling it as much. It's not quite as satisfying. So they're seeking that hit of whatever's going to taste like something. Well, when you say use it or lose it, I don't think people think much about using their sense of smell. It's just there. I mean, you smell what you smell and that's the end of that. So what do you mean by use it? Smell is shaping our reality and we might not just realize that

Starting point is 00:22:27 we're registering smells. So I think tuning into that, it was allowed me to sort of be aware of all my senses working in concert together to create an impression of something. And it was, I realized that it was information that I was not necessarily consciously taking in, but unconsciously taking in. And so I wanted to be attuned to that. Interestingly, your olfactory neurons, where the receptors are, they regenerate every four to six weeks. So, you know, depending on the smells that you expose yourself to, you can, you know, if you get out there and you're more adventurous, you could possibly regenerate with some more

Starting point is 00:23:01 interesting receptors. Well, I can certainly tell that my sense of smell is not as vivid as it used to be, but I still can smell everything just fine. But I can't imagine what it would be like to not be able to smell at all. Smell is just a rich aspect of what surrounds us. It's interesting when you think on the flip side of people who've lost their sense of smell. They tend to be highly prone to depression or anxiety. They lose interest in sex.

Starting point is 00:23:36 They sometimes eat not enough and they lose weight or they eat too much because they're eating too much salty or fatty food, just trying to get some kind of hit. And they describe the experience as one of just being sterile. You walk into your house, your house doesn't smell like your house. Your wife doesn't smell like your wife. It's very lonely. And with all the people who've lost their sense of smell through COVID, luckily, most of them are recovering it, but it can take weeks or months. And they don't really appreciate what they've lost until the sense of smell is gone. And then they tend to report a really dire situation that I hope changes for people. One of the smells you researched that I want you to talk about is baby smell, the smell

Starting point is 00:24:14 of a newborn baby, because it's really interesting what that smell is and where it goes and what it means. So talk about that. I was interested in the way in which that, that smell kind of, again, fuses with memory, fuses with emotion. You know, the time when my baby was so small, it's like nothing else exists in the world, but this little person. And when you finally gotten them clean and sweet smelling and they smell like their little bodies, it's, it's marvelous. And, you know, and it's such a fleeting sense. It doesn't last very long,

Starting point is 00:24:45 maybe six weeks. And so I was interested to find out like, what are some, what science have to say about that? And in fact, it's a little crazy. I don't entirely know where new baby smell comes from, but it's very clear that parents can identify their own children, you know, from that smell super early on. There was one study where women had had very limited exposure to their newborns, 10 minutes to an hour of total exposure. And they were asked to identify which t-shirt had been worn by their baby. And to an overwhelming degree, they were able to do it, even though they'd had no hit of this, they had not very much encounter with this smell, they still kind of knew it right away. And it's been tested with fathers as well with amniotic fluid in a different study.

Starting point is 00:25:28 And the fathers were able to tell which amniotic fluid was their child. So it's very strongly imprinting. Wouldn't you think that the smell of a baby is one of those smells that pretty much everybody's going to like? You know, that could give vanilla a run for its money. I agree with you there. I think so. Particularly the smell of your own baby.

Starting point is 00:25:49 If you don't like the way your own baby smells, that could be a real problem. And it's interesting how kids' smells shift over time. You know how as kids get older, they don't smell quite so nice. There was a study I encountered that was about trying to quantify or get to the bottom of that. And it's indeed true as kids get older and they need less paternal or

Starting point is 00:26:09 parental care, they do in fact sort of smell less, less attractive than sort of pushing the parent away in an olfactory sense. Well, it's such a universally interesting topic because, you know, pretty much everybody has a sense of smell. And I imagine everybody's wondered about how it works and why it works the way it does and why it brings up memories and things. And so it's interesting to hear the research. Jude Stewart has been my guest. She is author of the book Revelations in Air, a guidebook to smell. And you'll find a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Jude. This was fun.

Starting point is 00:26:46 Thanks so much, Mike. It was a real pleasure. I enjoyed talking to you. Hey, everyone. Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice.

Starting point is 00:27:03 Then we have But Am I Wrong, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong. And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

Starting point is 00:27:24 or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life.

Starting point is 00:27:54 So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. How many times have you heard people describe themselves as burned out? Oh man, I am so burned out. Maybe you've even said it about yourself. But what does it mean to be burned out? Is there a real definition? Or if you say you're burned out and you think you're burned out, well, you must be burned out. And if you are feeling burned out, what is it you can do about it so you don't feel that way?

Starting point is 00:28:32 Jonathan Malasik quit his job as a tenured professor because he was burned out. He then researched and wrote a book about it called The End of Burnout, Why Work Drains Us and How to Build Better Lives. Hey, Jonathan, welcome to Something You Should Know. Thank you so much for having me. So to hear people talk about burnout, I mean, almost seems like an epidemic. So what is it exactly? It seems like a self-described thing that if you say you're burned out, then you must be. But is burnout like a real thing? Are there a list of symptoms that if you say you're burned out, then you must be. But is burnout like a real thing? Are there a list of symptoms that if this happens, if you feel this way, then you're burned out? Or is it not that? There's a big difference between our common

Starting point is 00:29:17 cultural conversation about burnout and the scientific conversation about it. And in ordinary colloquial speech, we talk about burnout just like you were saying. It becomes a kind of catch-all term for our dissatisfaction with work. And it can mean just about anything from boredom to a to-do list that seems unmanageable to a total career breakdown. And if burnout can mean any of those things, it's pretty hard to put a definition on it when it's, as you say, just general dissatisfaction about your work.

Starting point is 00:30:00 This is why I think that we need to turn to the really good research on the question of burnout. My definition of burnout is most broadly the experience of being stretched across this gap between your ideals for work and the reality of your job. And the researchers on burnout measure the experience in three ways. They describe it as feelings of exhaustion, which I think most of us are familiar with, the feelings of cynicism or depersonalization, which is when you start to treat the people you work with, whether they're co-workers or customers or patients or students or whatever, as less than the full human beings they are. And finally, burnout includes an experience of feeling like your work isn't accomplishing anything.

Starting point is 00:30:58 It's a feeling of ineffectiveness at work. And I think that we'll have a much better chance of addressing the problem if we can start talking about burnout in those more precise terms. Yeah. Well, I like those terms because it does bring it into focus and it isn't this vague kind of, oh, I'm so burned out, which, you know, who knows what that means? It could just mean, you know, you need a break. I've always thought of burnout as also being the lack of a break. Like people who often are burned out never seem to take a break. They never take vacation. They're working on the weekends. They're just, they're constantly, the candle is always lit. Right. And this is how burnout can sometimes become a term for self

Starting point is 00:31:47 praise. You know, our culture values work so much to be a good worker is simply to be a praiseworthy human being. And so if you claim that you are burned out, then you're saying that you were an ideal worker. That, like you said, you never take a break. You work through weekends. You work through vacations. You're always ready to take on a new project. You're always responsive to client requests and supervisors' emails and all of that. And when all that adds up and you experience the strain, then you can think of yourself and tell others that you're a kind of martyr, that you have fulfilled our cultural ideals of work so much that it has actually ruined your life. And you are praised in that sense. So it's an ideal of work that can really is ultimately self-defeating. So based on what you're saying, the picture

Starting point is 00:32:57 that's starting to emerge is the tired, doesn't care anymore, grumpy old guy at work who seems burned out. Yeah. The one thing that I would change about your description, and this is certainly what I thought about burnout at the beginning, is that the person who's suffering from burnout is not necessarily the old guy. In the research, there's a pretty consistent finding that it's younger workers who are earlier in their careers who are more susceptible to burnout. And I think a big reason for that is when you're just starting out your career, that's often when your ideals are at their peak. You are ready to take on the world. You have a ton of energy. You're ambitious and you're eager to climb the ladder of your job is often pretty unsatisfying. You might not make very much, you might not get the best assignments, you might be overlooked as you're trying to climb that

Starting point is 00:34:15 ladder. And so it's often those younger workers who are exposed to the conditions that cause burnout. And then what happens if they have a really bad case of burnout? They'll quit and they'll move to a different career, perhaps until they find one that they can do sustainably. And so the older workers who are still around are the survivors. They're the ones who didn't burn out. But does part of the definition of burnout have to be that the person acknowledges it, that they agree that they're burned out? Or can you determine that somebody's burned out and have them say, no, I'm fine? Yeah, this gets into the tricky question of the clinical status of burnout, which is that it doesn't have any, at least not in the United States.

Starting point is 00:35:05 So you can't go to a psychiatrist and get a diagnosis of burnout. And so to find out if someone is burned out, you have to get them to talk about it and to say what their experience of work is. And so the scientific research on burnout operates on surveys. And the most widely used one is called the Maslach Burnout Inventory, named after the pioneering researcher Christina Maslach. And it's a series of 22 questions that ask you about your experience at work. And it's a way of getting the person to say what their level of burnout is without directly asking the question, what is your level of burnout? It would seem that you could look at burnout as, I guess, like a resilience problem. That, you know, some people just can't handle the pressure and that's why they get burned out, that the problem is them.

Starting point is 00:36:12 One of my big points about burnout is that it's not the result of some failure within the individual. So you don't burn out because there's something wrong with you. Rather, you burn out more because there's something wrong with the way your job is designed or the way your company operates. And ultimately, with the way our culture functions and the way we tend to overvalue work. We started this conversation by talking about how the term burnout gets thrown around a lot, that people use the term without a real clear definition. But according to your definition, how many people are burned out? Yeah, so it's not as big as some of the really splashy headlines that you see if, like me, you pay a lot of attention to

Starting point is 00:37:08 headlines pertaining to burnout. I've seen numbers in generally pretty shoddy surveys claiming that 77% of all workers are burned out. Or the most shocking and perhaps least believable one that I have seen is that 96% of millennial generation workers are burned out. Basically all of them. And those numbers are the product of poor surveys, imprecise definitions of burnout. When you look at the really good, more precise scientific definitions of burnout, the best research that I have seen would identify somewhere in the neighborhood of 10% of workers scoring high on all three dimensions of burnout. They have a high score on exhaustion, a high score on cynicism, and a high score on a sense of personal ineffectiveness at work. Those are the classic cases of burnout. Now, it's possible to score high on only one of those three dimensions or two of them. So

Starting point is 00:38:28 perhaps you're exhausted, but not especially cynical and you feel like your work is accomplishing something. I think it's worth it to talk about someone in that category as being on the burnout spectrum. And so I estimate based on, well, it's not just my estimate, estimate, it's based on, you know, really good research on this, somewhere around half of workers in the US are on the burnout spectrum at any given time. So that is a lot. So you said you estimate that about 50% of people are somewhere on the burnout spectrum. And I imagine that that 50% changes that people come in and out of that spectrum. So I'm wondering, do you think that over the course of a lifetime, pretty much everybody ends up on the burnout spectrum at some point. Yeah, I think that everybody is very likely to

Starting point is 00:39:27 experience it at some point. And that's not really surprising if you think of burnout as this experience of being stretched between your gap, the gap between your ideals for work and the reality of your jobs. Our jobs, people change jobs many times over their careers. And it's likely that at some point, they experienced conditions that didn't live up to the reasons that they went into that line of work to begin with. Maybe their workload was too much or not what they expected. Maybe they didn't have enough autonomy or control

Starting point is 00:40:06 over the work that they did, or they didn't get the respect that they were hoping for. Those are fairly common experiences. And when they last for a long time, then burnout is pretty likely. So yeah, I think it's not surprising that most people know what that experience is like. And so given that most people know it, what tends to be the successful way to address it? If you're at an organization, do you have to leave that organization because that's where the problem started? Or can you stay in your job and somehow manage it in a way that the burnout disappears? I mean, what's the best way to fix it? There's probably no one best way, but the possibilities that you're talking about are the ones that we ought to try. If you think about burnout as being the result of an organizational culture

Starting point is 00:41:08 that is not meeting the needs and the ideals of the workers, and you look around that organization and a lot of people are complaining from burnout, then something needs to change in that organization. And it's probably not going to be one person's decision what that change ought to be. People are going to have to talk to each other as a department, as a unit, as an entire organization to figure out what is going wrong, what things they're doing that maybe they don't need to do anymore because it's making everybody miserable, and figure out how to redesign jobs. It's possible to do that on an individual level, just with a conversation between you and your superiors. But that

Starting point is 00:42:01 solves the problem for you, but it might not solve the problem for others in your organization. And certainly when it doesn't seem like there's any hope of larger change, then quitting is often the only way to solve the problem. And in my case, that was the solution. I had been a college professor. It was my dream job.

Starting point is 00:42:26 Over time, I became more and more miserable and I couldn't figure out why. And when the opportunity presented itself, because my wife had gotten a good job offer thousands of miles away, I quit and it worked. I am no longer burned out. Of course, I had to take a huge pay cut. I'm not in that career anymore. But yeah, I mean, quitting is one surefire way to deal with burnout, though it's often you know, they can never say no. They take on too much. And it's not going to matter where they go. That's kind of their modus operandi. They're just one of those I can take on everything kind of problem. And moving jobs isn't going to solve it because it's them. It's not the organization.

Starting point is 00:43:21 Yeah, that's a good point. And that person is someone who has unrealistic ideals for work and unrealistic ideals of what it means to be a good worker or to be a little bit more in line with reality. But at the same time, those ideals don't spring up totally from just inside the person. They're cultural ideals. They're ideals that many of us share and that workers absorb from the culture that saying yes to assignments and always being ready and always hustling is the sign of a good worker and a good human being. Has the nature of work, the way work has changed over the last, I don't know, couple decades, do you think that's contributed to the burnout problem? I think that work genuinely has gotten worse in some ways over the past several decades. And workers of my generation and younger, so I'm in my mid-40s, have experienced worsening conditions in our jobs.

Starting point is 00:44:38 Our work has been more precarious. Our careers have existed in the era of mass layoffs. Wages for workers have almost totally stagnated for 50 years. And at the same time, work has become emotionally very intense as we've shifted to a service economy. And with the wide availability of mobile technology and email and Slack channels and all that, there's never a time when we couldn't be working. And so work truly has changed in ways that are harmful to workers and are likely to contribute to their burnout. My sense is that a big part of burnout today, or at least an ingredient in the mix, is this idea that didn't used to exist, that you're always connected to your work.

Starting point is 00:45:38 Your boss can always find you. You can always be notified of some problem that you're always on call and that takes a toll right it certainly does because you there's always some part of your mind that is waiting for that phone call that ping, that text message saying that, you know, calling you to work in a way. It's a constant vigilance. And it doesn't go away. It doesn't go away on vacation. It doesn't go away. It sometimes doesn't even go away when you sleep. And that contributes to the total pervasiveness of work in our lives. And work simply doesn't deserve all of our lives. Work is good. We need to work. And it's a good thing. But it's not all we are as human beings. If you're feeling burned out, whether or not you fit the

Starting point is 00:46:42 definition or not, but if you feel subjectively, it's your feeling that you are burned out, whether or not you fit the definition or not, but if you feel subjectively, it's your feeling that you are burned out. Is there something someone can do in the short term, fairly immediately, to help relieve some of that horrible feeling? You can start by trying to take a real weekend, for instance, and try to disconnect from work. But if you're truly burned out, the feeling is going to return on Monday morning because the conditions of your job have not changed over that weekend. The real cure for burnout has to be a shared effort to remake the work that we do. So this is why I think it has to happen at the organizational level.

Starting point is 00:47:27 And there, it has to begin with conversations with co-workers, with clients, with superiors about what it is in the job experience that is becoming damaging to you. But it also has to entail a larger cultural conversation about the role of work in our lives. Well, given how many people complain that they're burned out, how many people I hear talk about, oh, I'm so burned out, it's really good to get a more specific definition of what it is, what causes it, and what you can do about it. Jonathan Malasik has been my guest, and the name of the book is, what causes it, and what you can do about it. Jonathan Malasik has

Starting point is 00:48:05 been my guest, and the name of the book is The End of Burnout, Why Work Drains Us and How to Build Better Lives. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks for coming on, Jonathan. Yeah, thank you. How many times have you heard the advice to go with your gut, follow your instincts? Well, if you rely on your gut instincts, there are some scenarios where that could be a little off. Ray Herbert, author of the book On Second Thought, says, You should think twice about what your gut is telling you if, A, you're in a group. Most of us subconsciously mimic others, and that can influence

Starting point is 00:48:47 behavior and decisions. Your gut may tell you to go along with the crowd, but that may not always be such a wise idea. B. You're financially strapped. Feeling deprived can increase appetite and desire until

Starting point is 00:49:04 reason sets in. And C, if you're cold. Most people are less interactive and a little bit more isolated when they're cold, so you shouldn't let your gut judge other people too quickly until you've interacted with them in a warmer environment. And that is something you should know. There is no such thing as too many ratings and reviews. Some were close to 5,000 of them on Apple Podcasts, but other podcasts have even more,

Starting point is 00:49:34 and we want to catch up. So please leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful

Starting point is 00:50:06 religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a co-founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lightning,

Starting point is 00:50:52 a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. During her journey, Isla meets new friends, including King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, and learns valuable life lessons with every quest, sword fight, and dragon ride. Positive and uplifting stories remind us all about the importance of kindness, friendship, honesty, and positivity. Join me and an all-star cast of actors, including Liam Neeson, Emily Blunt, Kristen Bell, Chris Hemsworth, among many others, in welcoming the Search for the Silver Lining podcast to the Go Kid Go network by listening today.

Starting point is 00:51:26 Look for the Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Something You Should Know - How Smells Impact Your Thoughts and Actions & Why People Get Burned Out

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