Something You Should Know - How Therapy-Speak is Destroying Relationships & Why We Need More Fun at Work

Episode Date: July 24, 2025

Like a supermarket, major airports are laid out and configured to try to get you to spend money while you are there. Listen and discover how they do it and when you are most likely to open your wallet at an airport. https://www.neatorama.com/2015/06/11/12-Behind-the-Scenes-Secrets-of-Airports/ How many times have you used "therapy-speak" to descibe someone - words like toxic or narcissist or psychopath? It’s a handy and very descriptive way to talk about someone – but there are potential problems with doing it. Those words are often used by psychologists to describe serious conditions that most of us are not equipped to diagnose. And there are other bigger concerns which you will hear about from my guest, Isabelle Morley. She is a clinical psychologist, couples therapist and a contributing author to Psychology Today. She is also author of the book called They're Not Gaslighting You: Ditch the Therapy Speak and Stop Hunting for Red Flags in Every Relationship (https://amzn.to/40xjTUr) Fun and work are a bit like oil and water – at least in many workplaces. But maybe if work was more fun, people would do better work, stay at their jobs longer and improve the quality of their lives. So says my guest, Bree Groff. She is a leading expert in company culture and a senior advisor at the global consultancy SYPartners. Her clients have included leaders at Target, Pfizer, Microsoft, Calvin Klein, NBCUniversal, and Alphabet. Bree is author of the book Today Was Fun: A Book About Work (Seriously) (https://amzn.to/4kwSklg) Listen as she explores ways to incorporate more fun at work and why it is such a great idea. UPS drivers drive a lot. And you just might find that some of the strategies and hacks they use to navigate around town could be useful to you. Listen as I reveal some driving tips from UPS. https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/60556/18-secrets-ups-drivers PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS!!! SHOPIFY: Shopify is the commerce platform for millions of businesses around the world! To start selling today, sign up for your $1 per month trial at⁠⁠⁠ https://Shopify.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠ INDEED: Get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Indeed.com/SOMETHING⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ right now! QUINCE: Stick to the staples that last, with elevated essentials from Quince! Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Quince.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns! HERS: Hers is transforming women’s healthcare by providing access to affordable weight loss treatment plans, delivered straight to your door, if prescribed. Start your initial free online visit today at ⁠⁠⁠https://forhers.com/something⁠⁠⁠ DELL: Upgrade your learning experience during Dell Technologies’ Back to School event with AI PCs starting at $749.99! Discover a smarter way to learn at ⁠⁠⁠https://Dell.com/deals⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Since you're a listener to something you should know, you are, by definition, the curious type. You like to discover new ways to improve your life. And if I've got that about right, there is another podcast I want you to check out called The Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey. It's a podcast that can help you think sharper, feel better, maybe even live longer. Dave Asprey is a best-selling author. He's the guy who created the biohacking movement. And his podcast explores how to optimize

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search for The Human Up upgrade with Dave Asprey wherever you get your podcasts. Today on something you should know, the tricky ways airports get you to spend more money. Then therapy speak. Should we be using therapy words in everyday conversation? I will say therapists do joke that we never have to tell people in our lives, this is my boundary, you're being toxic, I think you're a narcissist because it's not effective to

do that. The main problem with how these words are used is that it lays unilateral blame on the other person. Also some great driving hacks from people who drive all day long. And can a workplace be fun and still be professional? I think what we've done is we've sort of equated professionalism with seriousness. But ultimately, I really believe that people want to enjoy their days. It's not a controversial thing to say that people enjoy laughing.

All this today on Something You Should Know. Hi, I'm Adam Gitwitz, host of Grim, Grimmer, Grimmest. On every episode, we tell a grim fairy tale. Not the cute, sweet versions of the fairy tales that your children have heard so many times. No, we tell the real Grimm fairy tales. They're funny, they're weird, sometimes they're a little bit scary. But don't worry, we rate every episode Grimm, Grimmer, or Grimmest, so you, your child, your family can choose the episode that's the right level of scary for you.

Tune in to Grimm, Grimmer, Grimmest, and our new season available now. into Grim, Grimmer, Grimmest and our new season available now. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. We all know that stores are designed and laid out to get you to spend more money. But did you know airports are as well? Hi and welcome to this episode of Something You Should Know. In airport lingo, the time between when a passenger clears security and boards the plane, that's called dwell time.

This is when passengers are most likely to spend, especially during the crucial golden hour, the first 60 minutes beyond security, when passengers are in a more self-indulgent mood. The display boards listing flight information are there in part to keep you updated on your flight, but also to reassure you that you have plenty of time to wander and shop. One hour of dwell time is great, but two hours, that's even better. So airports are constantly trying to get people through security faster. Well, that's not always been my experience, but the effort is there. One study found that for every 10 minutes a passenger spends in the security line, they spend 30% less money on retail items at the airport. Several years ago, the TSA announced it would give $15,000 to the person who came up with the best idea for speeding up security.

I have some ideas. Shops and restaurants are often clustered together to evoke sort of a main street feel because people like to shop in more bustling environments. And you'll notice that while the floors in airports for most of the airport are hard surface like linoleum, the gate waiting areas are carpeted. This is an attempt to make holding areas more relaxing,

like your own living room, because happy, relaxed travelers spend more money. And that is something you should know. You often hear people talk about other people using psychological terms. They'll say things like, oh, she's so bipolar, or he's such a narcissist, or those people are so toxic. And those are very clear and descriptive terms,

but should we be throwing around these rather clinical sounding words in casual conversation? It seems those words can cause some problems that you may not realize. That's according to my guest, Isabel Morley. She is a clinical psychologist and couples therapist. She is a contributing author to Psychology Today and has been featured in all sorts of media.

She's author of a book called, They're Not Gaslighting You, Ditch the Therapy Speak and Stop Hunting for Red Flags in Every Relationship. book called, They're Not Gaslighting You, Ditch the Therapy Speak and Stop Hunting for Red Flags in Every Relationship. Hi, Isabelle, welcome to something you should know. Hi, thank you so much for having me on. Sure. So let's define some terms here. What do you mean by therapy speak and what's the problem with using therapy speak when you're not in therapy? And just help me understand this issue. Therapy speak is when people take clinical terms

often used in therapy, whether they are disorders or terms like boundaries and holding space, and bring it into their everyday conversations with people. And so sort of apply all of this therapy knowledge into their everyday lives and While that can be a really great thing because it helps people understand and explain and get their needs met It can also be very easily misapplied and lead to a lot of problems You know, I hadn't really thought much about this till I saw your book

But when you hear people throw around those clinical terms, well, he's a narcissist or, you know, she's toxic. Those are pretty powerful words that have a real impact. That's the problem is that these are clinical terms and we give a lot of deference to medical terminology and people tend to respect and listen to others when they use those words, even if they're being used incorrectly. And I make a strong case that I don't think these therapy terms even need to leave the therapy room

and certainly not to be misused and weaponized in our relationships. Well, these therapy terms have been around forever, but why is it now that people are using them in everyday conversation to describe other people? I do hold therapists a little bit responsible for the proliferation of therapy speak, because we have introduced terms as we educate our patients and we try to help them understand their experiences,

and perhaps not with enough caveats of when and how those words should be used But I will say therapists do joke that we never have to tell people in our lives. This is my boundary You're being toxic. I think you're a narcissist because it's not effective to do that But that is what many people are now doing and why is it not effective? If someone is a narcissist or someone is a psychopath, I mean, why not call it out? The main problem with how these words are used is that it lays unilateral blame on the other person. And so rarely is it the case that one person is the only objectively wrong person in that dynamic relationship or interaction.

Outside of abusive relationships, both people contribute to communication issues. Both people have to negotiate boundaries, be flexible, work on emotion regulation skills. But when you call somebody a disorder or you label them as toxic or a red flag, it really points the finger and says, you're the whole problem. Yeah, but here's the thing. If you say that Bob, he's so toxic, I know exactly what you mean. I mean, it's a good term to use. Well, I may not know exactly what you mean, but I have a pretty good idea of what you mean and I don't think any other word would be as good as that.

So I get why people use it because they're very descriptive. I mean, I know what a narcissist is. So if you tell me Bob's a narcissist, I know exactly what you're talking about. And here's the thing, I agree with you. And I am certainly someone who has done it myself, especially when I was younger, because these words communicate something very quickly and very clearly. And especially when you're talking with friends and family, it's nice to have a quick, relatable point to make, and everybody understands what you're saying. Therapy speak, and it's misuse and weaponization is this next level where people are using these words directly,

accusatorily, in their relationships with their parents, their friends, their coworkers, their bosses, their spouses, and not just sort of trying to describe an experience, but really labeling and accusing the other person of being this full-blown disorder or term. Well, it also seems that when, and I think what you're talking about is when people use this therapy speak In a negative way there are words in therapy

speak That are nice, you know, he's very compassionate. He's an empath. He's a Those aren't the words you're talking about are they or are they? You know No, I haven't really addressed those terms, but you're right. There is a lot of positive therapy speak. I'm thinking of validation being a big one that I think is fantastic.

But when people are using therapy speak and misapplying, it tends to be to avoid taking responsibility for their own part of the problem. And my concern is that it stunts people's own self growth, because they're saying this person is is so terrible in this way and I'm gonna focus on that. They're a narcissist, they're a sociopath, they lack these abilities and skills and they're not doing any self-reflection and doing any self growth that would benefit them for their future relationships. Yeah, well, it kind of becomes a permanent label.

Like, if I call you a narcissist or I call you a psychopath, that becomes your label. That's who you are. That's who you think I think you are. And chances are, just because I called you a narcissist, it's probably not true. For the most part, no. I mean, therapists joke about this all the time,

that there's just no way that everyone's boss and everyone's ex is a narcissist, right? Statistically speaking, it's up to five or 6% of the population at most. So it's just not possible, but it's definitely tempting to have the escape route of calling another person something that is so definitive and absolves us of blame.

But then it leads to this question of, if you think that this person you're in a relationship with is a narcissist, a sociopath, has bipolar, is borderline, what does that mean for you? Telling them that they have this big problem and expecting them to change it, to take responsibility and apologize, I think people don't realize that the work doesn't stop at identifying a label.

Well that is such a great point because if I declare that you have this disorder, well now what? I mean, I put this label on you and so what are we gonna do with it? Right and then anything the other person does could feed into that conclusion very easily so they have to walk on eggshells to not give you any more evidence for your conclusion about who they are, what disorder they have, and the point that I make to my clients all the time is if you have genuine concerns that a person you love has a disorder or is abusive or toxic in this way you have

to think about how you're gonna approach that with this person and if you want to be in a relationship with them when so often I see people sort of lob these accusations and expect the other person to just live with it like you said. Yeah I'm perfect and you're a mess. And so now what are we going to do with that? But you have to, I'm sure you understand the appeal of doing that, of labeling someone else as having the problem.

It takes a lot off your shoulders. So there is real appeal there. Every grad student will tell you that we have all gone through the phase when we learn about how to approach diagnostic impressions. There is this immediate temptation to view everyone in your life through a clinical lens. And finally, you have an explanation for every time

somebody hurt you, disappointed you, made you feel a certain way. You can label them. You can explain them in this pathology that made you feel a certain way, you can label them, you can explain them in this pathology that makes you feel better. However, grad students are taught out of doing that in years and years from their professors, whereas now people are learning these terms on social media, they think they're experts and nobody is talking them out of using this clinical lens. Well, in some of those words, I mean, you call somebody a psychopath or a sociopath.

That's some pretty heavy hitting there that, boy, that, I mean, that carries a lot when you throw big words like that around. If you think somebody you're in a close relationship with is a sociopath, you need to be finding a way to get out of that relationship. Right. I would think so, yeah. with is a sociopath, you need to be finding a way to get out of that relationship. I would think so, yeah. Real fast.

Fast as possible. Since it is so tempting to think that way, to label people because of their behavior, well, they're a narcissist or they're toxic or whatever, what's a better way to think? Can I tell you, I think the better way and the most unsatisfying answer which is to accept and even embrace how complicated and messy and imperfect humans are that even humans who are well within the normal range of Psychological and emotional functioning are gonna do pretty terrible things to each other sometimes. And that's not necessarily pathology. That is situational.

That is a skill deficit. That's a growth opportunity. Right. But we have to understand that humans, even at their best, do a lot of bad things. And we need to figure out how to work with people and work with ourselves to improve and continue to communicate. So let's go down that path for a little bit. People, even in the range of normal,

do horrible things to each other. Like, why, I don't want to hear that. Me neither. Listen, if I could find a pathological reason why someone's hurt me, I would love to have that explanation, as opposed to finding out that they just didn't consider me,

that they didn't care about my feelings, that they put themselves first in a way that really made me feel unimportant. That's a terrible way to feel. So if there's an out to that feeling and I can call them a narcissist, of course I would want to do that. But the truth is people do hurt each other,

they do put themselves first sometimes, and that's not a reason to pathologize them. That's a reason to look at how we can continue to grow and change. And there's a reason to have compassion for ourselves, too, when we are the person who missteps and hurts another. We're talking about therapy speak and reasons why we shouldn't use it in everyday conversation.

My guest is Isabel Morley. She's author of the book, They're Not Gaslighting You. Ditch the therapy speak and stop hunting for red flags in every relationship. From the podcast that brought you to each of the last lesbian bars in the country and back in time through the sapphic history that shaped them comes a brand new season of cruising beyond the bars. This is your host, Sarah Gabrielli, and I've spent the past year interviewing history-making

lesbians and queer folks about all kinds of queer spaces, from bookstores to farms to line dancing and much more. You can listen to Cruising on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes air every other Tuesday, starting February 4th. Hey, it's Hillary Frank from The Longest Shortest Time, an award-winning podcast about parenthood and reproductive health.

We talk about things like sex ed, birth control, pregnancy, bodily autonomy, and of course, kids of all ages. But you don't have to be a parent to listen. If you like surprising, funny, poignant stories about human relationships, and you know, periods, The Longest Shortest Time is for you. Find us in any podcast app or at longestshortesttime.com. So, Isabel, it's one thing to say, okay, we shouldn't call people these names. We shouldn't use these terms in labeling people. But when the urge strikes,

what do you suggest we do instead? Love this question, because using these words is a way to avoid being vulnerable. And therapists always want to bring people back to their deep emotional experience, and when it's appropriate and safe, to be vulnerable with the people and their lives So instead of saying you're such a narcissist for showing up late to my work party

You never think about me and you're so self-absorbed. How about try saying? Wow, I was really embarrassed that everybody had their spouse there and that you walked in 20 minutes late and didn't even seem to notice That I was standing by myself and looking pretty anxious. That really hurt my feelings. I wonder, too, what those words do to the person they're aimed at. In other words, if you call me a psychopath, well, I'm going to respond to that. I'm going to, I'm not going to like you very much

for calling me that name. It's not a benign thing to call me names and I will respond either verbally or tell myself something in my own head. Absolutely. You're going to think it's unfair. You're going to want to explain yourself. You're going to want to pick your own term to throw back in their direction, right? How borderline of you to get this upset about something this small. That's classic. And again, it tends to create this one upping of scorekeeping, of labeling, and everyone is missing the point, which is that people have hurt feelings, or there are really problematic patterns in a relationship that are not being addressed. Or there pathology But the way people are approaching how they express their concerns that it exists make it impossible for the other person to actually

Consider if they need to get help When I think of times that those words come up that therapy speak Psychobabily stuff comes up in a conversation It's often between people talking about someone else rather than to their face. You know, that Fred, man, he is such a... he is so toxic. He's... and maybe that's okay because, you know, I'm not... we're not throwing it in his face, but I wonder what that does, if there's an effect there. It kind of normalizes that type of speech around the kitchen table.

It definitely makes it seem appropriate to use these words casually. It makes everyone think that they are an expert in using the words correctly. And we all want to be part of the zeitgeist. We all want to be up with the language that our peers are using. So I think it encourages more and more use of it. And again, to be honest, I don't have a huge problem with the more casual use when people aren't being incredibly serious or accusatory or even weaponizing these words. My concerns really began when I saw couples coming into my practice calling me beforehand

to let me know just a heads up my partner is a narcissist or an undiagnosed sociopath or having them in session say it to each other in front of me. And then I realized just how out of hand this had all gotten. Wait, really? People call you ahead of time and say just to let you know my partner is a undiagnosed sociopath? Yes. And I've had people say they have

talked to their individual therapist. They've come to this conclusion. They just want me to have that information going into the session, because obviously I will need to help fix their partner for them. And I'll tell you, every single time, it has not been accurate. Every single time. Every single time. Every single time.

And again, this is where I hold therapists responsible because we should not be diagnosing people we have not met. And the joy of being a couples therapist is you get to see both people in the room explaining their emotions and their experiences and you see how reasonable or unreasonable they are. Whereas if you're getting one side of the story, it's easy to think the other person is a total monster. Well as you said in the beginning, when you label someone, when you label your partner or someone else, your friend or whoever the conflict is with, when you use one of those fairly powerful clinical terms

You're you are putting the blame on them that the the reason there's a problem is because you're Bipolar you're toxic. You're a narcissist whatever it is The blame is a hundred percent you That's everyone's favorite go-to move I think everyone who comes to couples therapy is secretly hoping that the therapist will say, yep, the other person is the problem. Let's take care of them and send you on your way. Because it's hard to see our own flaws. It's hard to see the ways in which we're

contributing to the problem. Because, and I really believe this, we're all doing our best. Even the sociopaths out there are doing their best to operate in this world in the ways that make sense to them. And because we're doing our best, we cannot easily see how we could be contributing to the issue at hand. So I'm curious what the procedure is. Like, let's say, let's say you really turns out you really are a psychopath or a narcissist or or your bipolar

And I don't mean to laugh because we've been talking about using those terms when they don't apply but if they actually did apply What's the procedure because it seems like you're not gonna really be able to fix that in couples therapy with your partner Maybe that's something you go do on your own or with another therapist or something. Absolutely, yes. And this is the way in which I'm concerned that we have lost the value of accurate diagnosis because knowing that someone you love,

your partner, has a disorder should set both of you free. It can help them get the right treatment, which yes, should be with their own therapist, their own prescriber, their groups, whatever that looks like. And it can help explain parts of the dynamic that might be difficult in your relationship and shed light onto what might be going on

for the two of you, but it can't just be solved in a couple's context. You know, it occurs to me that, you know, you could see something on Instagram or Facebook that, you know, describes a narcissist and you see three signs of narcissism and you go, oh, that's my significant other. And you, so you therefore, even in your own head, if you don't say anything out loud, in your own head you have decided

this person is a narcissist. And from there, it seems like now, because you've labeled them that, you're constantly looking for evidence to support that opinion, that confirmation bias of you find things to confirm what you've decided is true? Absolutely, yes. You filter all the rest of the incoming data

to pull out evidence that reinforces your belief, and you ignore any data that would contradict it. So confirmation bias is so powerful when you have decided on a label, and it leads to increased vigilance so that you are really actively seeking out data to confirm your belief, making it almost impossible for someone to not appear like a narcissist.

So therapy speak, these clinical terms that we've been talking about. Like, how did they get out of the clinic? Because we didn't used to hear people say these things a lot. People didn't throw those terms around as much as they do now. I imagine social media has a role to play in this. And this is the way in which I appreciate social media, because it's lowered the stigma around therapy

and clinical terminology in a way that has helped people understand themselves and seek help more openly. Whereas in the past, you would just say somebody was, quote unquote, crazy and leave it more openly. Whereas in the past, you would just say somebody was, quote, unquote, crazy and leave it at that. But yes, now there is much more openness to talking about these words and terms in a way that has been really complicated.

Yeah, because it's good in one way and not so good in another. And I argue that a pendulum can swing too far in the other direction. I don't think it was good when we refused to talk about depression and anxiety or encourage people to seek help. And we have taken a good thing too far, where now we over pathologize people in our lives and ourselves in a way that gets in the way of a happy functional life. Well, it seems to me that expectations are different, that people expect their lives to go better than they probably could ever go, but that's the expectation because that's what we see when we see people on social media.

They never post their horrible days, they only post when things are going great. How many influencers do you see on Instagram and Tik Tok who seems so happy with their lives, who have the perfect marriage and who never fight with their kids. And that's the expectation now that that's what you should be able to have. You should wake up every day feeling rejuvenated and ready to tackle work. And if you don't feel that way, you must be depressed, or your partner must be a sociopath or there is something pathologically wrong if you are not

living this wonderful perfect life that it seems like everybody else can achieve. Well this this therapy speak stuff it I mean it is so tempting to use those labels and you said you've done it even though you now try not to but I've done it and I it's hard not to but I think at least we can be a little more careful about it. I've been talking to Isabel Morley she is a clinical psychologist and couples therapist and the name of her book is They're Not Gaslighting You. Ditch the therapy speak and stop hunting for red flags in every relationship. There's a link to that book

at Amazon in the show notes. No Frills delivers. Get groceries delivered to your door from No Frills with PC Express. Shop online and get $15 in PC optimum points on your first five orders. Shop now at nofrills.ca. Hey everyone, join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week we deliver four fun-filled shows. And Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong? Which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice.

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Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Traditionally, fun and work are almost opposites. Work, well that's something you do that is serious. It requires your full attention.

To incorporate fun into work would be a distraction. It would interrupt the flow. It would hamper your work and make you less productive. Still, for several years now that I'm aware of, there have been efforts made to incorporate more fun into people's work, and it has met with some resistance. Probably because what would be the payoff? Why would a business want their employees to have fun at work?

To what benefit? They can have fun outside of work. If they're having fun at work, well then they're not working, and we can't have that. Well, here with a fresh look at this whole idea of making fun part of work, and the reasons why it is a good idea, is Brie Groff. She is a leading voice in the future of work and the reasons why it is a good idea is Brie Groff. She is a leading voice in the future of work and company culture.

She's a senior advisor at the global consultancy, S.Y. Partners. Her clients have included Target, Pfizer, Microsoft, Calvin Klein, NBC Universal, and more. Brie is author of a book called, Today Was Fun, a book about work. Seriously. Hi Brie, welcome to Something You Should Know. Hi Mike, how are you? I'm great. And so, what is the purpose? Why are we talking about this? What would be the benefit of incorporating fun into work? Why do it? What's the goal? Yeah, two things. First is that when you overwork, you underlive.

And we only get so many hours and days on the planet. And so the first thing I want people to know is that there's always an opportunity cost to anything, right? But especially when we prioritize our work over our lives. but especially when we prioritize our work over our lives. And the second thing is that the quality of our working days really matter. This has been my mission in my career, with the premise that when you try to get to Friday, when you try and wish away the work week,

you're also just wishing away your life, that we only get so many Mondays. And so the quality of our work days matter, and I believe they should be fun. To which many people would say, yeah, well, fun sound may be at your job, but it's not much fun here. This is, we leave fun at the door. Yes.

So I hear two super common arguments about this, two ends of the spectrum. One is like, well, work is called work for a reason. It's drudgery. It's why we get paid because it's painful and people wouldn't do it otherwise. That's one end of the spectrum. The other end I hear is, oh, work should be your life's purpose and your calling. And if it's not, you're doing it wrong. And I'd actually reject both of those ends of the spectrum. I mean, I understand why people feel them both, but also I think there's a simpler middle ground

where work could just simply be fun, could just simply be a nice way to spend our time on the planet because work fundamentally is fun. It's nothing more than creating value, creating value that people then exchange money for. And it's fun to make things that people enjoy. It's fun to build with others. It's fun to show off our skills and build new skills. So when we simmer work down to the basics, it is fundamentally fun. What I'm trying to

do is get a lot of the other cluttery stuff away from it. You know, performance reviews that suck the soul out of you and all the rest of it. But whether or not your workplace is fun, that's a tone that gets set from the top. I mean, I've worked at jobs in different companies, same job, but the experience can be very different if the tone is set at the top that it's okay to be light and fun.

Yes, it's incredibly important because when you see an executive team laughing in meetings and smiling and not taking themselves so seriously, that absolutely sets a culture for fun and enjoying your days. But even if you don't have that, I still think it's possible, I know it's possible, to create sort of a corner of organizational sunlight, almost like you're a cat. I mean, if you ever see cats, they squeeze themselves into the one sliver of sunlight

in an apartment or a house. That's what people can do for themselves, is how can you create, even for your own working days, even if you have one or two direct reports of small team, how can you make life a little bit more joyful within your sphere of influence, even despite anything else that's going on in the business? Well, it would seem before anything much can happen here, you would have to get yourself into that mindset. You have to actually believe that work can be fun

and then think of ways to make it fun. And can you, just an example or two of like, how do you make work fun? I'm a big fan of mischief at work, just like the micro mischief. So this could look anything like, how do you make work fun? I'm a big fan of mischief at work, just like the micro mischief. So this could look anything like, let's say you order umbrella picks for your workplace.

And as you have your morning coffee, you put a little umbrella in yours and give one to a colleague. And now you're not having mediocre office coffee, you're having an umbrella drink. And it doesn't slow down the day, doesn't threaten anybody's bottom line. It's just a little bit of mischief and delight. Another example, you might ask your team,

oh, we have this problem. Normally you might say, okay, let's just figure out some solutions. There's this inventory thing going on. But instead, maybe might say, okay, let's just figure out some solutions. There's this inventory thing going on. But instead, maybe you say, what is the most hilarious way to solve our problem? And it opens up a whole new line of thinking. It's just honestly more fun to work and run businesses like that. You know, lastly, I always think connection is such a great antidote to not

having fun at work. If you can like the people that you're with, as you said, it almost sometimes the nature of the work isn't quite as important. So just learn something about a colleague. And some of my favorite questions are ask somebody's middle name. It's not too intrusive of a question, but it's also kind of intimate in a way because you hear family histories or you make someone questions are, ask somebody's middle name. It's not too intrusive of a question, but it's also kind of intimate in a way, because you hear family histories, or you make someone blush, or maybe you find out what their pet's names are,

and all of a sudden now you know that they have a dog named Rover, and you get to see pictures on their phone, and you have a connection that you didn't before. So those are some sort of micro joy, micro fun places to start. You know, as you were saying that, it seems like you would have to navigate the people that you're working with, because I can think of people who would find putting an umbrella in their drink

would find that quite charming. I know other people who would go, hey, what are you doing? You know, and get upset about it. See, you kind of have to tread lightly, it seems. Look, you're going to pick your battles, and I'm not trying to get anybody fired. So maybe if the place you need to start is just wearing fancy socks, maybe they have a little Flamingo

print on them, like then you start there. Whatever sort of smallest version of breaking the shell of formality and professionalism is a really, really good place to start. And I'll also share the story because I get that question a lot, like, oh, we couldn't do this in our business. It's much too professional and formal. And so then I tell the story of what surgeons will sometimes do in the OR, which is arguably the most serious of all workplaces

when you have someone's life on the line in front of you. So there's a great example from Dr. Peter Attia, the author of Outlive. He tells the story of when he was a Johns Hopkins surgeon doing kidney transplants, he and his team would listen to clips of Napoleon Dynamite while they were doing surgeries. And if you don't know Napoleon Dynamite, it's a throwback 2004, very ridiculous, dry, hilarious film. or very ridiculous, dry, hilarious film, these clips would have them laughing

all throughout the kidney transplants. And you would think, wait, did it compromise the outcomes? Did they live? Like, did the surgeries turn out okay? And he said, actually, over the course of three days, they did 13 kidney transplants, listening to Napoleon Dynamite, and every one had remarkable outcomes.

And so I shared that story because if surgeons in the OR can have fun, then we definitely can in a budget meeting or whatever feels very formal. So you work your way up to it. If there's no harm done, then why would anybody object to it, except that I think there are those people who just at their core believe that work is no place for fun.

And so, again, it does depend on the people. People will have different appetites for this, and that's okay. Although I will say, I have never met a leader, especially in all of my years consulting, who didn't a little bit want to have fun. And sometimes it just takes the right kind of fun or the right kind of like nudge or the right kind of joke to get someone a little bit out of their shell. But ultimately, I really believe that people want to enjoy their days. It's not a controversial thing to say that people enjoy laughing. And I think what

we've done is we've sort of equated professionalism with seriousness. And when we really think about what it means to be professional, it's doing high quality work on time, being reliable, being kind, to be able to say, we get all of our work done, and we have time for a laugh. So you make a good case for having fun at work, because having fun is fun. And so that's good for morale. It's good for people.

People like to laugh. But what about benefits to the business? You mentioned those doctors performing surgeries and the outcomes were better when they were having fun and laughing. But are there real substantial benefits to any business for doing this? There's two big benefits. One I find more valuable than the other, but I'll cite both. The first is employee engagement drives performance. And this has been studied all up, down, left, and right. You can find Gallup's research on this is prolific over the years.

Research that having a best friend at work improves business outcomes. So there's definitely a business case to be made. That if people are engaged, connected, enjoying themselves, that that drives performance. And intuitively, it's actually pretty easy to see that if people are feeling confident and comfortable, they're more likely to share their best ideas,

to really care about supporting colleagues and doing what they need to do to Be a good member of a team. So there's that benefit and that is all over the place You can find it in every business book ever written about culture. I actually think the existential argument is one we're not talking about enough and is Actually far more important You only get so many Mondays. Every day that you spend at work is a day that comes from the finite bank of days

that you have on the planet. And when we are doing no more than trying to get through the week because work is extracting from us and we feel we hold a mental model that we just empty ourselves for our employer so that we can refill ourselves on the weekend. That leaves us in a place where we are enjoying two-sevenths of our lives each week at best. And I don't think that's okay. It's not what I want for myself.

It's not what I'd want for my daughter. Also, it's not what I'd want for any of the people in the teams that I've led. I would never want them to feel that their existence was only input to the company's bottom line. I also want them to have enjoyed their days at the company because that is valuable too. And ultimately customers provide a share of wallet, which is important. It drives the business, but employees are devoting a grand portion of their lives. And I think we don't, we haven't valued it to date in the way that we should have. Well, I like what you say, and you had talked about this earlier, that there's this image people have that, you know, your work has to be your calling and, you know,

your passion and do something you love, and you'll never work a day in your life. But that just isn't practical for so many jobs. And it makes people feel like somehow they're a loser because they don't have this passion. But most people probably don't have that passion in the way that it's been written about. And this is something else to replace that, because that's

not doesn't exist in a lot of places, that is much more realistic and has clear benefits and outcomes that trying to find your passion is never gonna do. It's just not. Yeah, it's too much. And some people on this planet will feel like that and that is beautiful for them.

But I also want the barista serving coffees to feel delight in making latte art. To me, that impact is plenty. And so it's important to take down the wild expectations that every day has to be joyful or purposeful, because the truth is, it's, you know what? I'm only shooting for most days. My motto, especially on hard days I'm only shooting for most days. My motto especially on hard days is most things most days. That's actually plenty.

If most days at the end of the day you can say today was fun then I think you've won. What are some other ways that people can push the idea of fun into work without you know ruffling anybody's feathers, but just kind of push it along. Okay, here's a few other simple ones. Our language really matters at work. So one thing I recommend is saying, happy Monday, happy Tuesday, happy Wednesday, happy Thursday.

Normally we just say happy Friday with the understanding that, oh good, it's the last day of the week. But if you are alive and well and at work, then it's a happy day. So try, try a happy Monday. A few other things you can do. Sometimes the best way to have a good day is to make someone else's day and enjoy seeing a smile on someone else's face. One way you could do that is sending what I call a love bubble, which is a short little email message could be two lines long just to say something that you noticed and appreciated

about them recently. Like, hey, Joe, you were super masterful in that meeting. I don't know how you got everybody all aligned, but it was awesome. That's it. And they're gonna think about that for the rest of the day. You will have made their day and you're also starting to perpetuate a positive feedback of we say nice things to each other and build each other up. Another in that vein, if you've ever seen a political thriller where there's a fixer and they say to the president, consider it handled, well, wouldn't you love

if someone did that for you at work? Like you've got all these things on your plate and someone says, hey, that presentation, consider it handled. I would go and I'd want to kiss that person if HR wasn't nearby. So why don't you do that for somebody else? Hey, I got the draft of that thing that we need to do.

Hey, I'm gonna look at the inventory or finance numbers for you, consider it handled. And then just see what a smile that puts on someone else's face, and also how much it'll do for you too. Is there ever a concern that once you start bringing fun into the workplace, the more you do that, the more people expect more of that?

You know, if you, for fun, bring in donuts for everybody one day, then next week isn't it kind of expected? Well, where's the donuts? Like you have to be careful with that. I do sometimes get this question both from leaders and employees. Leaders worry, well if I'm generous and fun then everyone's gonna screw around and not get any work done and then where does that leave me? Team members think, well, conversely, if I'm doing my most brilliant work and over-delivering for the boss, then they're going to expect that of me every time.

And so it creates this culture where everybody's holding on a little bit and holding back. What I have found to be so revolutionary, when one party starts with an act of generosity, more often than not, that's received with gratitude, appreciation, and wanting to reciprocate. I wonder if there are businesses or departments within businesses where this wouldn't work because the work tends to be Negative like, you know call centers where people are calling all day to complain that and and the calls are

Constant that it's hard to work in fun when you're just dealing with people who are screaming at you. Is there any hope there? There is hope absolutely and it comes from diversifying your sources of joy at work One of my first consulting clients was the call center of a cancer center so they were receiving the calls from either people with cancer or people whose loved ones had cancer, who were desperately trying to get themselves or their loved one to be seen by a doctor.

And it wasn't always possible. There wasn't always a match with a doctor. This is life or death situations. And so these people were being screamed at. That's why we were there, to try and look at the culture and see how we could support these people the best we could. The bright spot of that culture is that those co workers were so immensely kind to each other, supportive of each other when

one person had to just go outside, get a little air, everyone knew exactly what to do to help that person. Some people needed to be left alone, some people needed a friend in that moment. The break room was such a source of joy and camaraderie. So if it's not the work itself, which by the way was highly fulfilling to them when they could match a doctor and a patient, but if it's not the work itself, then it's the colleagues. If it's not the colleagues, then it's the sense of growth. It's realizing that there's so many ways to spot and amplify the joy in our work. Sometimes it just takes a hot second to take a deep breath and realize

that it's there. It's there for the taking. We just have to look for it. Well, ask anybody who's been working for a long time, you know, what was your favorite place to work? It's always going to have been the place that had fun and it sticks with you and you look back fondly, and it sticks with you and you look back fondly but also probably find you did some of your best work. Brie Graf has been my guest. She is author of the book Today Was Fun, a book about work, seriously. And there's a link to her book in the show notes. Brie, thank you for coming on and talking about this. It was great. It was wonderful so thank you. UPS drivers know a thing or two about driving because well that's what they do, drive. So maybe we could

learn from their knowledge and one thing UPS drivers try to do is not turn left. Why? Well by obsessively tracking their drivers as UPS is known to do, they found that a significant cause of idling time resulted from drivers waiting to make left turns, essentially going against the flow of traffic. That's according to a former UPS public relations manager. So drivers are instead encouraged to drive in right-hand loops to get to their destination. Consequently, many of the routes are designed to avoid left turns, and UPS says the policy has saved millions of gallons of gasoline and reduced carbon emissions. Another thing drivers are encouraged not to do is drive in reverse. According to a UPS

spokesman, we generally will tell them that the first rule of backing up is to avoid it. The way UPS sees it is that backing up increases the likelihood that a driver will unintentionally bump into something or someone. Again, advice we could all use. And that is something you should know. And so now that this episode is over, take a moment while you're thinking of it, it's still fresh on your mind, and hit the share button on your phone or wherever you're listening, and send this episode to someone you know, and that would really help us out. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

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