Something You Should Know - How to Be More Charismatic & How Modern Genetics is Changing Everything

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Starting point is 00:00:17 You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, your name and the names you give your kids really do matter in life. Then charisma. What is it people do exactly to appear charismatic? If someone shows up on a video or in a meeting or on a date and you instantly are drawn to them, it's because they know exactly what to do with their hands, their voice, their words.

Starting point is 00:00:55 They are masterfully sending social signals of warmth and competence. Also, the health benefits of shopping and a peek into the fascinating world of modern genetics. For example, how does DNA last so long that we're solving criminal cases that are decades old? DNA is actually pretty hardy. And so if it's left at a crime scene, you know, the DNA that's in the blood cells, if there's blood on a crime scene, that DNA can last for a long time. All this today on Something You Should Know. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world,

Starting point is 00:01:35 looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology.

Starting point is 00:02:06 That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel.

Starting point is 00:02:37 The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hello there. Welcome to another all-new episode of Something You Should Know. I think parents, especially first-time parents, would agree that there's quite a bit of pressure in coming up with a name for your child. And I'm about to add to that pressure, because it does seem that your name or your child's name is all part of how people perceive you. In a study in the Journal of Educational Psychology,

Starting point is 00:03:17 experienced elementary school teachers were asked to grade a set of paragraphs written by 10th graders entitled, What I Did Last Sunday. Eight different paragraphs were used, all about average and quality. And attached to these essays were eight different names. Four, Karen, Lisa, David, and Michael, were rated as desirable names by students and teachers. The other four, Bertha, Adele, Hubert, and Elmer, were rated as undesirable.

Starting point is 00:03:51 The names were attached to papers at random, so that, for example, one paper that was labeled as written by Adele one time was attributed to Karen or Lisa at other times. Now, although the teachers were given identical papers with only the names being different, they gave significantly higher grades to the papers written by students with desirable names. In another study published in the same journal, sixth graders' self-concept, meaning how effective, how attractive, and how valued they felt, turned out to be related to the desirability of their first names. Moreover, children with desirable first names

Starting point is 00:04:36 scored higher on a standardized test of academic achievement. Now, one possible interpretation of that is that teachers expect children with more popular names to do better. And so over time, those positive expectations translate into higher academic achievement. And that is something you should know. I think we all know charisma when we see it, and we like it when we see it. Most of us are drawn to people who have charisma,

Starting point is 00:05:11 and I suspect many of us secretly wish we had more of it. So can you have more of it? Is charisma something you can acquire, or is it something you're just born with, or not? Well, that's a question Vanessa Van Edwards investigated. She is the founder and lead investigator at Science of People. She's also a renowned speaker and TED Talk giver. She had a big best-selling book out called Captivate the Science of Succeeding with People, and her latest book is called Cues, Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication. Hi Vanessa, welcome to Something You Should Know. Oh, thanks so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Starting point is 00:05:55 So, since you've investigated it, what is charisma exactly? Because it does seem hard to define. You know it when you see it, but to describe it is difficult. So what is it? Yes, you're so right. So the good news is, is we can learn charisma. And when we actually look at highly charismatic people, they rank high in two specific traits. Research has found this is groundbreaking research from Princeton University, completely opened my eyes to how people work. They found that highly charismatic people are both at the same time off the charts in warmth and off the charts in competence. In other words, they can be likable and trustworthy and open and at the same time, capable, productive, and efficient. Well, that sounds like good news because warmth and competence are things anybody can have and exude and demonstrate.

Starting point is 00:06:54 So that would mean that anybody can have charisma. This is actually exactly what started me on this journey. Little did I know, 17 years ago, I started a little folder on my desktop called Curious Cues. And at the time, so I struggle with social anxiety. I like to joke that I'm a recovering awkward person. And so at the time, I was always observing people and I started to notice patterns. On the one hand, this was a year where there was a lot of bad actors coming out. So there was athletes who were admitting to doping. There was politicians who were lying.

Starting point is 00:07:34 And I noticed that whether it was a politician, an athlete, or a celebrity, if they were in shame or guilt, they were showing some very similar cues for fear and anxiety and guilt. And on the other hand, I noticed that there were very charismatic people. And again, it was politicians, actors, celebrities, athletes. It didn't even matter their talent, but they were showing similar positive cues. And I wondered, is there a way to code this? Is there a way to learn what are the cues we send in negative times and what are the cues that we send in positive times and can we adapt them? Can we adopt them? And I suspect your answer was yes, which is why you wrote a book about it. But before we get into the cues specifically, in your definition of warmth and competence, I guess I'm kind of surprised that confidence

Starting point is 00:08:27 is not part of your definition of charisma. You are so, yes. I, you know what, confidence was a bucket sort of in the research list for a long time. And I actually wondered, is confidence a third bucket? What I've come to realize is confidence comes from control. I think why I could not identify specific cues of confidence different than warmth and competence is because what we like is we like people who are in control of their cues. If someone shows up on a video or in a meeting or on a date or at a party and you instantly

Starting point is 00:09:06 are drawn to them, it's because they know exactly what to do with their hands, their voice, their words. They are masterfully encoding or sending social signals of warmth and competence. But actually, confidence, the backdoor, the secret way into confidence is that these highly charismatic people are always able to hit that balance with control. confidence, the back door, the secret way into confidence is that these highly charismatic people are always able to hit that balance with control. And so that's why we could not find those standalone confidence cues. It was more that confidence was a side effect of effectively using warmth and competence. So let's talk about these cues, because when I see somebody that I

Starting point is 00:09:42 think of as charismatic, I see the charisma, but I don't necessarily know what the building blocks are. Is it what they say? Is it how they say it? Is how they hold their hands? I don't know what it is that they're doing, but I can spot it a mile away. Yes, you're so right. We spot those charismatic people right when they enter the room. It's like we're drawn to them. So there are four different cue channels, modes of communication where we transmit our cues. The first one is nonverbal. Our facial expressions, our posture, our gestures, those are all nonverbal cues that we send the moment someone walks into a room. And by the way,

Starting point is 00:10:20 introverts, introverts have this mistaken belief that the moment that they start speaking is when they make their first impression. But actually, we make our first impression the moment someone first sees us. And that's why that first mode, nonverbal, is so important. The next one is vocal. So, vocal is how we say our words, our volume, our pace, our cadence. And that's sort of a secret mode that I think a lot of people don't realize that how you say something is just as important as what you say. And then there's verbal, of course, the actual words we use. And then lastly is imagery. And that's the colors we wear, the fonts we use, even fonts have personality, the props that we carry or that we have in our

Starting point is 00:11:02 background, in our Zoom background, or the props we have in our profile photos, those are all different imagery cues. And so given that those are the cues, are there then recommended cues? Are there right and wrong answers? Should you use this font, but not that font? Should you have this in your Zoom background, but not that in your Zoom background? What do you say? I like to say there's no right or wrong cue because it's dependent on your goals. For example, so most people want to come across as highly charismatic. They want to be as memorable as possible. So for them, they want to hit that perfect balance of warmth and competence cues in all those channels. But there are some folks who maybe just want to come across as competent. Maybe they don't want to be very warm. They're

Starting point is 00:11:50 in an interrogation or they need to solicit important information. Well, in that case, they might not want to send signals of collaboration. They might just want to come across as imposing or powerful. One example that I love to give is my good friend, Michelle Poehler. She has a brand about addressing fears. And so in all of her branding and all of her videos, she shows lots of fear cues or what I call danger zone cues. Those are cues that are neither warm or competent. They're actually negative, but that's part of her brand. She's showcasing how she conquers fear. So the good news is, is that everyone has their own unique flavor of cues. And this is important. If we all did the same cues, we would

Starting point is 00:12:33 be robotic and no one wants that. But instead I want people to think about how you come across authentically is your recipe of warmth and competence. For example, I used to believe that you had to be the bubbly extrovert to be likable, to be charismatic. And that is not true at all. There is the bubbly extrovert, but there's also the quiet, contemplative, powerful introvert. There's also the compassionate, empathetic, nurturing healer. And so the way that you use those cues makes your unique cake, your unique flavor. So you really have to be pretty intentional about this to make that, to create that recipe that you want to create to project the image you want to project.

Starting point is 00:13:17 I think that's confidence. So I think intentional is one of my favorite words. Intentional is control, is confidence. If you know exactly how to show up in a room, how to speak your words with confidence, how to share your passion or your ideas, what to do with your gestures, what to do with your face, that is intention that's serving your goals. A lot of people, as they're reading the different cues, they go, oh, that's why I do that naturally. And that's the good news. My goal is to help you be a little bit more intentional.

Starting point is 00:13:51 So you have the cues you've already been doing accidentally that work for you, but you're adding on just a little bit more intention. Talk about gestures. I think they're so important. I mean, people use them all the time. They use them even when they're on the phone and nobody can see them. I'm using them right now and nobody can see me, but I'm gesturing. Are there good gestures to use or bad gestures to use that send messages that you do or don't want to send? Gestures are sort of, I think, the best social hack when it comes to charisma. And the reason for that is because we tend to

Starting point is 00:14:25 forget about them. Our hands naturally, while we're speaking, tend to emphasize our gestures. And researcher, Dr. Susan Golden Meadow, she's the chief researcher on gesture. She wrote a book called Hearing Gesture. And she found two interesting things about gestures that changed my perspective on how I use my hands. One is that when you use gestures along with your words, so you match your words and your gestures, your gestures emphasize your points. So if you say, I have three ideas, you hold up three fingers. If you say you have a big idea, you hold it like it's beach ball big. If you have a small idea, you hold it like it's a little tiny pea pinched small. Those gestures help lower your listeners' cognitive load.

Starting point is 00:15:09 So it's a gift to your listeners when you can demonstrate or emphasize your words with your gestures. I like to think of it like a highlighter. The second thing that she found is that gestures help speakers be more competent. So if I were to ask you to tell me an embarrassing story while you sit on your hands, you would have a harder time recalling and transmitting that story. And that's because our gestures are almost like a lubricant for our own thinking. And also that adds a little bit of dynamism to my voice. Even adding gestures that you can't see adds a kind of dimension to my vocal power. It changes those vocal cues.

Starting point is 00:15:54 Charisma is the topic on the table, and my guest is Vanessa Van Edwards. She is author of the book Cues, Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS

Starting point is 00:16:34 and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back,

Starting point is 00:17:00 and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed, critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everyone. Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows.

Starting point is 00:17:25 In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our Lister poll results from But Am I Wrong. And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and

Starting point is 00:17:56 Friday. So Vanessa, I understand that everybody has their own recipe, but very often we don't know exactly what situation we're about to walk into, but we do know we want to look strong, we want to look powerful, we want to look charismatic. Is there a basic recipe for walking in a room and looking and appearing charismatic, regardless of who you are or the situation? When we studied highly charismatic people, we did find common recipes, if you will. There are six charismatic cues. There are five warmth cues and five big competence cues that those cues sort of make the basis. They're the favorite cues, if you will. So, you know, for example, one is how much space you take up.

Starting point is 00:18:44 So this is a really basic cue across genders and cultures and races. University of British Columbia researchers, they found that athletes across cultures make the same body language gestures when they win a race versus when they lose a race. So winners typically take up more space. They tilt their head up towards the sky. They open up their arms. They usually have lots of space. They're claiming their space. Whereas losers, losing athletes in defeat or shame, take up as little space as possible. They roll in their shoulders. They tuck their chin into their chest. They clench their fists. They make a pained expression. So when we first see someone,

Starting point is 00:19:25 we are very quickly looking for winners. Now, of course, this is completely subconscious. And that's a really important thing to note because these days, most people are accidentally making their first impression in defeat posture. Every single time you check your phone, when you're in a waiting room, when you're walking into a restaurant, when you're walking into a room, when you're waiting to greet someone, you are accidentally in the defeat posture. Your chin is tucked to your chest, your arms are tightly pressed to your sides, you're hunched over. Sometimes you're making a pained expression if you're concentrating on your emails. That is your first impression. Before you even hop up and shake their hands, you just made that first impression of looking more like a losing athlete.

Starting point is 00:20:09 So what I want people to think about is one of the easiest ways to up your power factor, this is a competence cue, is to make sure, especially in those first few seconds, when you hop on Zoom or you walk into a room, you are claiming space. Now, I don't want you to walk into every room like Rocky, right?. Now, I don't want you to walk into every room like Rocky, right? Like that would be a little bit too much, a little bit socially aggressive, but I do want you to create space between your arms and your torso. I love chairs that have armrests for that reason. We tend to not tuck in when we have armrests, our arms are a little bit broader. I want you to also maximize the space between your shoulder and your earlobe. Weird, weird measurements, I know. But that measurement right there indicates, are you protecting? Are you tucking? Are you hunched over? Are you rolling your shoulders up in anxiety? The more space you can create right there, the more you're signaling to people, I feel relaxed, I feel calm, I feel confident. Let's talk about eye contact, because

Starting point is 00:21:06 very often in discussions about making a good impression or being influential or charismatic, that eye contact is really important. So what do you think? I would actually say yes, eye contact is great, but there is too much of a good thing. The sweet spot, and this is just for Western cultures. So Western cultures, typically the right amount of eye contact is about 60 to 70% of the time. So it's not a hundred percent. And that means that in regular conversation, we know as humans that we have to look away. Sometimes we look down at our plate or our drink. We check out a sound across the room. And if we're thinking deeply, we typically look away. So if I were to ask you to, for example, solve a math problem, so if I were to say,

Starting point is 00:21:51 what's 10 times 10 plus 12 minus three? If we were talking, you would probably look away to think, what is 10 plus 10? And that is because when we're deeply thinking, we don't want to socially engage. We're trying to critically think. And so in really good conversations, you have this beautiful dance of making eye contact while you're listening and then deeply thinking and then making great eye contact while you're thinking and deep listening. And that has to do with the chemical oxytocin. So oxytocin, simplified for our process, it's a very complicated chemical in our body, but it's the chemical connection.

Starting point is 00:22:24 And we make it when we're making good eye contact. And that's why it's so important is it actually creates a chemical reaction for both people in the conversation. You've mentioned a couple of times that everybody has their own flavor, their own recipe for charisma. But when I think of somebody who's charismatic, I have an image of, you know, somebody who's very put together, who looks very sharp, very well dressed. There is a charismatic image I have in my head. And so what are some other, what's another example of charisma that isn't that? I think of someone like Johnny Depp, right? Johnny Depp is kind of disheveled on purpose, you know? He has, you know, even like, what's his character in Pirates of the Caribbean?

Starting point is 00:23:14 Jack Sparrow. He has smudgy, yeah, Jack Sparrow. And he has smudgy eyeliner and his hair is all over the place. And he's sort of sloppy and we love him for it. So that's part of his flavor of charisma that he sort of just owns the messiness. So I think that's kind of exciting. That's kind of a good thing is you know that for you, you appreciate the imagery cues of being put together, that hair, every hair in place, the colors are purposeful, the shoes are shined. Some other

Starting point is 00:23:43 people might find the opposite. They might think of purposeful dishevelment or not even caring and going out anyway because their inner charisma shines through. It might be their flavor of charisma. I think that's kind of interesting. Occasionally, I've noticed, maybe you've noticed this too, where you meet someone and upon first meeting them, they seem to have that charisma. They look the part, they walk the walk, they look charismatic. And then you start to talk to them, and it's like the more time you spend with them, the less charismatic they become. And maybe it's because I'm a podcaster and I notice things like this, but, but people who appear very competent and, and I'm not talking about you because you don't do this at all, but they'll start to talk and they'll um, and ah, and there'll

Starting point is 00:24:35 be these pauses and they, they don't seem to really put their thoughts together well. And, and it's like, it's like the charisma just drains right out of them. Yes. Yes. You are so right. And by the way, thank you for saying it's not me because I've had to work on that. I use an app called Ummo, and it counts your ums, your ahs, your nos, your sos, your ooh, the likes. It counts those.

Starting point is 00:24:58 And I've worked for years to actually try to eradicate those from my speech because it's absolutely a signal of incompetence and verbal fillers of, that's a vocal filler. And then, you know, so like those are verbal fillers. And it's absolutely true that when we're buying time or we're afraid to pause, and that comes from a lack of confidence, we add those verbal fillers. And the problem is, when do we use them the most in our most important presentations, interviews, and interactions? And so this is a curse of being

Starting point is 00:25:37 human that we can be super charismatic, never use a verbal filler when we're practicing in front of our mirror. And then this was me before I got my TED talk. I practiced my TED talk over and over and over again in the mirror to make sure that I eradicated those real fills. The moment you hit the stage, that's when your anxiety goes up, you get adrenaline, you get cortisol, and then they come back. So I very much appreciate it. The good news is for anyone who's listening, you can, can, can eradicate it. I highly recommend the MO app. It's a great way to untrain yourself. So understanding that there are a lot of elements to charisma,

Starting point is 00:26:16 what's the advice, the general advice though, that if I or anybody else wants to walk into a room, any room, and appear charismatic, what are like the first three things I should do? Right. Okay. So first is space, right? So making sure that you're claiming your space, your shoulders are back, your arms are loose, your head is up and angled out. Okay. So that's the first space. Second is you want to give a gesture, a very specific gesture, which is an acknowledgement gesture. So we love hand gestures. So specifically in the first 10 seconds, is there a greeting gesture you can do? An open palm gesture is great. So whenever I hop on video, I give a nice little wave. Whenever I walk into a room, I gesture to my friends. When my friend or

Starting point is 00:27:02 colleague or team member walks in the room, I greet them with my hand and beckon them over. My goodness, we love an open palm gesture. So I use them as much as possible. I use them when I'm speaking, when I'm greeting in my first impression. So space, purposeful gestures. And the last one is eye contact. So that holding that gaze across the room. So you're beginning to trigger that oxytocin even across the room during an interaction, even on video. So the good news is research has even found that we can produce oxytocin through a webcam. Last one is phone. So if you're on the phone, right, you don't have nonverbal cues. You only have verbal and vocal. You can't really make eye contact. You can't, your gestures don't really matter. Although they can add a little bit of dynamism. But research that we did during the pandemic, I partnered with Dr. Paul Zak. Dr. Paul Zak is the kind of foremost oxytocin researcher.

Starting point is 00:27:51 He runs a lab called Immersion Neuroscience. And we wondered, you know, in this, when we're all on phone and video, could we still produce oxytocin? How do we do it? And so we found that even mentioning oxytocin words help produce oxytocin. So even when I'm on the phone, I will often say, oh, I wish I could give you a hug, but I'll have to send one from here. Or I'm giving you a digital high five right now, or I'm sending a high five across the airwaves, even saying hug, high five, handshake, touch, any of those kinds of words, even just saying them in an email, those can also help produce oxytocin.

Starting point is 00:28:34 Well, it's one of those topics that I think everyone is curious about. And to hear your definition of charisma as being a combination of warmth and competence, I think is different than what most people would say. I've been speaking with Vanessa Van Edwards, and the name of her book is Cues, Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication. And you will find a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Vanessa.

Starting point is 00:29:02 Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. Thanks, Vanessa. Disney themed games and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Stories of encounters with the paranormal from all around the world. Then we have some fun reacting to those stories. We like to say our goal is to scare the hell out of you, then make you laugh. Belief in the paranormal is not required. All you need is a love of great storytelling and curiosity about the world around you. Come find the Ghost Story Guys on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and everywhere else fine podcasts live, or at ghoststoryguys.com.

Starting point is 00:30:12 There is a lot of talk today about genetics and DNA and how you can take a DNA test and find out about your background, your ancestors, and your health, and how DNA is helping to solve cold criminal cases, how we genetically modify food, how we might genetically modify people. And frankly, it isn't always easy to understand what all this means. So here to help is Dr. Joshua Rappaport. He is a cellular biology expert who teaches at Boston College, and he's the author of a book called Mapping Humanity,

Starting point is 00:30:47 How Modern Genetics is Changing Criminal Justice, Personal Medicine, and Our Identities. Hey Joshua, thanks for coming on to explain all this. Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be speaking with you today. And so what is modern genetics, and what is all the excitement about in this field? The main point when we're talking about genetics is, you know, we hear a lot about nature versus nurture, right? So nurture would be basically your environment, anything that happens to you as you develop, things that shape who we are. And the nature would be the genetics. It would be the genes that you have, the DNA that you have in your body, which you inherit from your parents, and what that impacts

Starting point is 00:31:33 on your development and who you are and the differences between people. So something like eye color, for example, is primarily a genetic thing, whereas things like height and weight will have a genetic component and an environmental component. So nature and nurture at play. And when we talk about the real revolution in modern genetics, it's really in the past few decades, our ability to quickly and cheaply and easily figure out those genetic differences between people. So what makes one person's genetics different from another person's genetics? And in addition to the sort of technology, there's also the computer programs and the algorithms and things that are used to look at that and make predictions and increase our understanding.

Starting point is 00:32:32 One of the things we hear about genetics and DNA is that it's helping to solve criminal cases. So how does that work? This molecule, this DNA, this deoxyribonucleic acid is basically a long string. We call it in science, we call it a polymer, and it's a long string of different pieces. And those pieces, the sequence of that DNA is different between one person or another. Now, because we're all human, the vast majority is going to be the same, like greater than 99% of every human's DNA is the same as every other human's, but it's those differences that make an individual. And we have ways of identifying those differences and being able to use that as a sort of fingerprint to

Starting point is 00:33:11 identify one individual relative to another. And also it can be used to identify one individual as a member of a family because those differences will be similar between people who are related. And so that's how they're able to find, you know, the killer in this old cold case, because the DNA doesn't go away. It doesn't disappear if there's enough of it. Yeah, that's actually a really great point. So some of the molecules of life are very ephemeral and are very sensitive to heat or light or humidity or whatever. But DNA is actually pretty hardy. And so it will, if it's left at a crime scene, you know, the DNA that's in the blood cells, if there's blood on a crime scene, that DNA can last for a long time.

Starting point is 00:34:01 I mean, you know, you think back to Jurassic Park, right, where they were extracting DNA from prehistoric insects that were in amber. Now, that's a little fantastical. It's a science fiction book and movie. But, you know, the fundamental assumption there that DNA can last for a long, long time is actually pretty accurate. So what is it that science that you can look at somebody's DNA and say that they're predisposed to get some illness? How does that work? There's kind of this spectrum. And to put it simply, basically, there are some very, very rare genetic diseases where if you inherit this certain mutant gene or a combination of mutant genes, you will almost definitely develop that disease. Now that is thankfully very rare.

Starting point is 00:34:54 What's obviously a lot more common are things like heart disease, diabetes, you know, things like that. And these are very complex and they involve lots of different genes and very subtle effects. So it's really this spectrum. So we have ways of looking specifically for individual mutations for these really deadly, rare diseases. And then we also have ways of looking more broadly at these more subtle differences, which any individual, one of them won't definitely cause a disease. But if you accumulate enough of them, and especially, again, going back to nature and nurture, if you have a certain type of lifestyle, you might be more likely to develop one of these complex diseases.

Starting point is 00:35:39 Like, for example, if you smoke and lung cancer runs in the family, those two things are going to be a problem because you're now more likely to get lung cancer. Exactly. So, for example, there are some genetics that are more likely to have heart disease. And maybe if you eat really, really well and you exercise a lot, that'll be helpful in staving that off. But that doesn't mean that if you don't have those risk factors that you can, you know, eat cheeseburgers and milkshakes three times a day and not also develop heart disease or whatever. And, you know, it's sort of like, you know, if you if you wear a seatbelt and you're in a car accident, you might be protected. But if you don't wear a seatbelt and you're not in a car accident, that doesn't mean that wasn't a risky thing to do. Given that we now know so much about genes and what makes up people, is there still more that we don't know than we do know?

Starting point is 00:36:44 Or have we cracked the code and we really get it now? That's a really great question. That's a really interesting question. And I would say that there are a few different ways to look at it. So one is that when we talk about these tools to look at DNA sequence or look at the genes or look at what, in somebody's DNA, we still haven't really been able to easily and cheaply and readily sequence or identify or study every single bit of our DNA that's in our bodies. And there's some parts that are just harder to discover, harder to decipher, harder to analyze. Let's say people, somebody gets cancer, and maybe cancer runs in the family, maybe it doesn't.

Starting point is 00:37:30 But in any event, is cancer a genetic disease in the sense that it does something to your genes, and that's why you get sick? Or is it not? It's really interesting, actually. So there's sort of two answers to that question. So there are genes and certain versions of genes that run in families that increase risk for cancer, absolutely. A lot of what happens, though, is you get mutations that are created in your DNA during the course of your life. So, for example, if you think about skin cancer, there is certainly familial increased susceptibility. But also what happens is, is that the actual radiation from the sunlight can actually mutate the DNA that can then lead to skin cells becoming cancer. So you have the DNA that you're born with, the gene sequences that you're born with, that you inherited from

Starting point is 00:38:34 your family, but those are changing as you grow and develop and continue to live your life. And things like radiation, for example, things like toxic pollution, chemicals and things can go in and create mutations to the individual. Now, luckily, at least most of those changes won't then be passed on to the next generation, because they might just be in a skin cell on your nose or whatever, but they can affect the life of that individual. And that is a major cause of cancer are those mutations that are caused to our DNA as we live our lives. So now we have these tests that people can spit in a tube and send away and find out all kinds of things about their ancestry and about potentially about diseases they might be prone to.

Starting point is 00:39:27 Talk about those from your perspective. Are these a good thing? Are they accurate? Do you do it? What? These personal genetic tests, I mean, I don't think you could inherently call them a good thing or a bad thing. I think it depends how they're used, and it depends how people understand what the results mean and don't mean. So people will spin a tube

Starting point is 00:39:49 and send it off and they'll get some kind of a report back. And millions and millions of people, especially in America, have jumped on this and I've done it myself. And I think it's really interesting. Probably one of the reasons they're interested, interesting is because a lot of the people that are doing it in America, you know, their families have only been here for decades or a few hundred years. And a lot of people are interested to know, you know, back hundreds of years ago, where did my family come from? That family history might have been lost. And so you can learn about your ancestry. You can learn about your family history through this. And then there's also usually a component or there can be a component that's looking at this disease risk. And it won't say you have the following mutations that mean you are going to develop this disease. It'll generally say something like, you know, you have this signature that can be associated with increased risk of this disease. So yeah, it's really interesting and it can be really useful, but also it's usually not absolutely definitive. And another sort of caveat to all of this is that these things are only as powerful as the databases

Starting point is 00:41:02 of information that's already out there. So it's one of those things where the more information that's collected, the better these predictions can be made. And one issue is that historically, up to this point, a lot of this personal genetic testing has been done by generally people with white European ancestry. So it sort of biases the assessment based upon that. Explain, if you can, how what is now known about modern genetics, how that information, how that knowledge then allows us to treat disease in medicine? If somebody has cancer and you can actually look at those cancer cells and look at the DNA in them and see what the mutations are, there actually are treatments and therapies and drugs that can be specifically used depending on what the mutations that cause

Starting point is 00:42:02 the cancer are. Another way it's used when we're talking about drugs is some people are sensitive or allergic to certain drugs. Some people have drugs or can be toxic in some people. And so by looking at their DNA, by looking at their genetics, you can identify beforehand whether you should avoid giving this kind of drug to this person because it's clear that they have a mutation. That means they won't

Starting point is 00:42:31 be able to tolerate that drug, metabolize that drug, process that drug, and it could be toxic or non-functional. That's an area that is referred to as pharmacogenomics. And that has been really, really revolutionary because up to that point, it was kind of like a trial and error thing, or you would have to do sort of lots of laboratory tests to make sure that somebody would be able to tolerate a drug. And now you can just look at people's DNA to figure that out. And then finally, I would say there's the world of what we refer to as gene therapy. And that's where you can actually make changes to people's DNA in order to cure a disease. And this is something that's still primarily in the experimental or developmental or clinical trial type of phase.

Starting point is 00:43:22 Is it a case of being able to identify, well, you have a mutant gene here, so we're just going to go in and take it out or demutantify it or whatever you would do, and then that'll fix the problem. Yeah, it could be exactly that simple. I mean, there are cases of blindness that are genetic, and there are ways of introducing the correct gene into the eye or otherwise removing the gene that the mutant gene that's causing the blindness, and they can literally make the blind regain sight. However, you know, the price tag on those types of things are like literally like a million dollars per eye. So this may be a stupid question, but when we talk about genes and going in and fixing genes,

Starting point is 00:44:15 well, where are the genes? Like, okay, I have blue eyes, so I must have a gene for blue eyes. Where is it? If you wanted to go get it, where do you go to get it? Every cell has a structure in it called the nucleus. And in the nucleus is where the vast majority of our DNA, our genes reside. So if the genes are books, the nucleus is the library. Okay. And the, the, the magic and what really fascinates me actually is every cell has the same genes in it, but a brain cell, a nerve cell is very different than a muscle cell is very different than a skin cell. So if they all have the same genes, how are each of

Starting point is 00:45:03 these cells so different? And that's because, you know, it would sort of be like if you have the same sheet music for everybody in the chorus, but the basses are singing the bass and the altos are singing the alto. So it's the same piece of music, but the different parts of the chorus are singing different parts differently. Talk about how genetics is used to modify food and also maybe why people object to that. And people don't like the idea, in many cases, of genetically modified food. So what is that all about? It can be controversial because people can have an understandable resistance, especially depending on how it's presented.

Starting point is 00:45:47 But the fundamental idea that you could take a drought-sensitive species and make it drought tolerant, and that the places that it's growing are, because of climate change, becoming drier, and that this could increase food security and it could help people not starve is certainly a beneficial goal. Well, because I think that the term genetically modified food sounds scary to a lot of people, but it isn't necessarily scary. It's just different. An important thing we have to remember is that we're all genetically modified, right? Evolution is constantly making mutations and changing things. And, you know, at some level, if it was done in a lab in a year, or if it was done in the fields in 10 years, you know,

Starting point is 00:46:38 sort of what's the difference? I mean, when we eat corn, it bears very little resemblance to the last wild occurring thing that looked like corn, right? Like humans have been changing the genetics of corn for thousands of years. And the examples of that, you know, throughout our food system can be seen. So if we can do that faster, if we can do it more efficiently, if we can, with the ultimate goal of feeding more people, why, you know, I don't see that as an inherently negative thing. You talked in the beginning about DNA and solving crimes, but I'd like to get you to talk a little bit about, it's not just the science of genetics. It's also the fact that more and more people are getting these genetic tests done that is helping to solve more crimes. So when you talk about DNA being left at a crime scene, if you have a DNA sample that you think may have come from a criminal, but you have no suspects, what can happen now is that that unknown DNA sample can be analyzed through one of these genetic tests, and then it can be uploaded.

Starting point is 00:47:53 The results can be uploaded to a database. And maybe the criminal hasn't had their DNA tested, but maybe their second cousin has. And the family-based similarities are so striking that if a second cousin or an aunt or an uncle or a great-grandparent had their DNA tested, and it's in that database, the computer tools are so good that they can find that match. And then what happens is the next step is pretty standard investigation, which is looking at birth and death records, looking at census records, looking at real estate information and figuring out whether there was some relative of this person who's in the database who might have been at the time and place where the crime was committed. So if you see a match and you say, oh, well, look, this second cousin of this person in this database was living in that city the time when this crime was committed and that person is still there, then that person now becomes a suspect. And that kind of genetic-based investigation works really well

Starting point is 00:49:08 and has had a really major impact in closing some very high-profile cold cases. Well, what I find so fascinating about this topic is how fast it's changing. Just as an example, when you think about DNA and using DNA in criminal cases, I looked it up and it was 1911 when fingerprints were first used in a criminal case. That's just a hundred years ago when fingerprints were first used. And look how far we've come now with DNA evidence solving cases. And that's just in one part of the whole topic of genetics. I've been speaking with Dr. Joshua Rappaport. He's a teacher at Boston College, a cellular biology expert,

Starting point is 00:49:54 and his book is called Mapping Humanity, How Modern Genetics is Changing Criminal Justice, Personal Medicine, and Our Identities. And there's a link to his book in the show notes. Thank you, Joshua. This was really interesting. Thank you very much. If you'd like to do something good for your health, go shopping. Research has found that a shopping spree has some of the same benefits as a workout, along with a surge of positive emotion. Shoppers in the study experienced an increase in heart rate and sweating, and bargain hunters

Starting point is 00:50:32 felt the most physical and mental excitement and burned the most calories. Now obviously, retail therapy can backfire if you can't really afford it or you get carried away with it. But if you can master window shopping and actually skip the big purchases, you'll get an even bigger rush of satisfaction from your self-discipline. And that is something you should know. You can help us soar up the podcast charts by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. It's a great way to support this podcast, and it's really easy to do. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

Starting point is 00:51:17 Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair

Starting point is 00:51:46 form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook.

Starting point is 00:52:02 Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called the search for the silver lining a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named isla who time travels to the mythical land of camelot look for the search for the silver lining on spotify apple or wherever you get your podcasts

Something You Should Know - How to Be More Charismatic & How Modern Genetics is Changing Everything

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