Something You Should Know - How to Create More Special Moments in Life & The Problem with Trying to Be Being Perfect

Episode Date: July 18, 2019

I suspect every parent wonders how they will be remembered in their child’s mind. What kind of parents do your kids think you were? This episode begins with a look at what children tend to remember most about mom and dad. https://time.com/4097995/parenting-kids-remember/ Some moments stand out in your life while many other moments are a blur or have long been forgotten. So what makes that special moments so special? And once you know that can you create more of them? Dan Heath joins me to explore that question. Dan is co-author of the book, The Power of Moments: Why Certain Experiences Have Extraordinary Impact (http://amzn.to/2yY3fOH) Are you a worrier? Worriers are often told not to worry because supposedly, it doesn’t help. Well maybe it does. Listen as I discuss some interesting research that shows how all that worrying can really pay off. http://www.purewow.com/wellness/worrying-and-intelligence Being a perfectionist must be frustrating since it is impossible for humans to be perfect. Still, a lot of people strive for perfection in an imperfect world and it causes a lot of problems. If you are a perfectionist or know one, listen as I speak with clinical psychologist Dr. Elizabeth Lombardo author of the book, Better Than Perfect: 7 Strategies to Crush Your Inner Critic and Create a Life You Love (https://amzn.to/32tNfDb).  This Week’s Sponsors -Omax Health. For 50% off your first box of Omax Sleep and Stress Remedy with CBD plus free shipping go to www.Omax Health.com and use the promo code: SYSK  -SimpliSafe. For a 60 day risk-free trial and free shipping, go to www.SimpliSafe.com/something -Dashlane. For a 30 day free trial plus 10% off Dashlane Premium go to www.Dashlane.com/SYSK -Stroke of Genius Podcast. Subscribe to Stroke of Genius on Apple Podcasts, at www.ipoef.org, or your favorite podcast platform. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As a listener to Something You Should Know, I can only assume that you are someone who likes to learn about new and interesting things and bring more knowledge to work for you in your everyday life. I mean, that's kind of what Something You Should Know was all about. And so I want to invite you to listen to another podcast called TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks. Well, you see, TED Talks Daily is a podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday in less than 15 minutes. Join host Elise Hu.

She goes beyond the headlines so you can hear about the big ideas shaping our future. Learn about things like sustainable fashion, embracing your entrepreneurial spirit, the future of robotics, and so much more. Like I said, if you like this podcast, Something You Should Know, I'm pretty sure you're going to like TED Talks Daily. And you get TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts. Today on Something You Should Know, what will your children remember about you as parents? Every parent should hear this. Then, you know those special moments in life that really stand out?

What is it that makes them so special? What psychologists have found is that looking back on our experiences, we tend to disproportionately recall two moments in particular. The peak of the experience, which is the most positive moment in a positive experience, and the endings. Plus, if you're a worrier, that may be just fine. It seems there are some real benefits to worrying. And perfectionism. If you're a perfectionist, you might want to figure out why that is. Look at your past. When did this perfectionism develop? What rules did you come up with for you? I have to be perfect in order for people to like me. I can't make a mistake.

Look at those events and see how you can reinterpret them to be more helpful to you. All this today on Something You Should Know. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples,

Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Something You Should Know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hey, welcome to Something You Should Know, episode 296.

296. We start today with a question worth pondering. I suspect every parent has thought this to themselves. What do kids take away from their parents? What do they remember? When you're all done parenting and the kids grow up and leave the nest, what do they remember about you? According to an article on Time Magazine's website,

here is what really matters. The times you made them feel safe or unsafe. Those would be the times you chased away the monster under the bed. But kids feel unsafe when they see their parents lose their temper. Those memories really stick. The times you gave them your undivided attention. Kids measure love primarily by our attentiveness to them. So the times you stopped what you were doing to have a tea party or go outside to throw a ball will be memories etched into their hearts and minds forever. They remember the way you interact with your spouse.

You are the model for what a relationship should look like. Your words of affirmation or criticism, their identity and self-worth are molded largely by your words. And traditions. Kids have a deep need for predictability. They will cherish family traditions, so you should have some. And that is something you should know. When you look back at your life, what you remember are moments. Moments that made you very happy and perhaps moments that made you very

sad. But for those moments that you remember that delighted you, what is it about those moments that makes them so memorable, so special? And can you create more of them in your life and in the life of your friends and family members and even your customers. That was the question that Chip and Dan Heath set out to discover. The Heath brothers have written some really interesting books over the years, including Made to Stick, Switch, and Decisive. Their new book is called The Power of Moments, Why Certain Experiences Have Extraordinary Impact. And Dan Heath joins me.

Hi, Dan. Thanks for being here. Mike, thanks for having me on. So we've all had those standout moments we remember fondly, or those horrible moments that we remember vividly, but not so fondly. And we remember them like they were yesterday. So what is it about those moments? Maybe it's just that they were so good or so bad that makes them stand out. But what is it that makes special moments so special? Well, you've just articulated exactly the mystery that led us to this book, which is why is it that these certain moments pop out?

And some of them are pretty obvious. You know, the day that you get married is obviously going to stick in your brain for a long time and graduating from high school or college. But there are also a lot of smaller moments that stay with us. You know, maybe something that happened on a vacation, some nice thing that someone in the service industry did for us, or a moment in school when a teacher or a mentor or coach, you know, took you aside and commented on a talent that you had that you didn't even know you had. And so we were interested to study across these different kinds of moments, what are

they made of? Can we reverse engineer them with an eye toward creating more? Because if we can understand what they're made of, maybe we can create more of these positive moments. And that was the entry point to the book. And since this is what you and your brother do, what did you come up with? Well, we came up with a theory, that's for sure. So we basically propose that positive experiences are linked by four elements. Those elements are elevation, insight, pride, and connection.

So I'll just say a couple sentences about each of those. Elevation means it lifts us above the everyday. You know, there is positive emotion like joy or delight or surprise. So think in terms of, you know, a drink with a friend at sunset or, you know, a performance in your high school musical. There's something about it that's joyful and extraordinary. When it comes to insight, those are very different kinds of moments. That's in an instant we rewire our understanding of ourselves or our world. So you might figure out this is the last day I'm going to spend in this job.

You might look across the dinner table one night and realize, hey, this is the person I'm going to spend in this job. You might look across the dinner table one night and realize, hey, this is the person I'm going to spend the rest of my life with. They come suddenly and with force. The third element is pride. So probably everybody listening to this somewhere in their house, you have a little box or a file drawer where you keep things that are special to you, you know, thank you letters from people that you've helped or certificates or awards or plaques. They're moments that capture us at our best, moments when we accomplish things we weren't sure we'd be able to. And then the final element that occurs again and again and again is connection. So often these moments that are so

memorable to us are social moments or they're moments that deepen our ties to other people. So, you know, think about a conversation that goes on for hours with a dear friend or think about a particularly grueling project you may have had at work that once you succeeded and got to the end of it, you felt bonded to that team forever. And so when we talk about experiences, you know, whether we're thinking about the customer experience, the patient experience, the student experience, the employee experience, what we're really talking about is how can we create moments out of these four elements that enrich those experiences? Because they do seem

to be somewhat random, don't they? They just, they come whenever they come and their magic when they're magic and then they're gone and then you wait for the next one. That's exactly right. I mean, I think we have a certain fatalism about these moments, you know, we appreciate them when they happen. They're, they're serendipitous. You know, you bump into someone that turns into a friend or someone that you have a relationship with and it's just kind of unpredictable magic. But this is actually a power that we have that we may not be using. And that is we can understand what these special moments are made of. And in the business world and in our personal lives, we can create more of them. How so? How do you, because part of what seems to be so special about

those moments is that they're not artificially created. They're spontaneous and they're just aha kind of moments. Well, let me give you an example of an artificially created moment that's actually pretty special. So there's a hotel in Los Angeles called the Magic Castle Hotel. And let me first say that whatever image is popping to your mind right now when I say the Magic Castle Hotel, it doesn't look anything like that. It looks like what it is, which is a 1950s-era apartment complex, two stories, that's been converted into a motel. I think hotel is actually stretching it a little bit. It's been painted bright yellow, totally unremarkable place to look at. But would you

believe that on TripAdvisor, this place is ranked the number two hotel in LA ahead of the Ritz, ahead of the Four Seasons. And so the natural question is how in the world could that be true? Well, the Magic Castle has figured out moments. So I'll give you one example. By the pool, which is a totally ordinary looking pool, it might be the same size as your neighbors in the backyard. But by the pool, there's mounted on the wall a cherry red phone. And just above the phone, there's a sign that says Popsicle Hotline. And you can pick up this phone. Somebody will pick up, say popsicle hotline will be right out. They'll bring out grape, cherry, orange popsicles, all delivered poolside on a

silver tray by somebody wearing white gloves like an English butler, all for free. They have a snack menu where kids can go up to the front desk and ask for a variety of snacks for free. And they've got board games you can check out and movies you can check out. And they'll do your laundry. If you drop it off in the morning, they'll have it back by the end of the day. They've got magicians that come and do tricks in the lobby. And so when you start thinking about the hotel through that lens, you realize, hey, people will forgive average-looking rooms, an average-looking hotel,

an average-looking lobby if you deliver some moments that stand above the rest. And what the Magic Castle has figured out is that if some moments rise above the rest, that's often enough to create a great experience, even if not every single detail is perfect. I'm speaking with Dan Heath. He and his brother Chip are the authors of the book, The Power of Moments, Why Certain Experiences Have Extraordinary Impact. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a co-founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lightning, a fantasy adventure series Thank you. Lessons with every quest, sword fight, and dragon ride. Positive and uplifting stories remind us all about the importance of kindness, friendship, honesty, and positivity. Join me and an all-star cast of actors, including Liam Neeson, Emily Blunt, Kristen Bell, Chris Hemsworth, among many others,

in welcoming the Search for the Silver Lining podcast to the Go Kid Go Network by listening today. Look for the Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking

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So, Dan, I remember hearing that Walt Disney knew something about optimizing experiences, that when it comes to experiences, we remember the beginning and the end more than we remember the middle. And that if the beginning and the end of an experience is not as good as it should be, then it tends to taint our recollection of the entire experience. And that's why he made a big effort to make sure that getting into the theme parks, Disneyland and Disney World, and getting out of the theme parks is a relatively stress-free, relatively easy, enjoyable experience, because he wanted to make sure that people got in and got out and were happy. Exactly right. And you're making actually a really important point, which is when we look back on experiences like going to Disney World, for instance, psychologists know a couple of things about what our memories are going to look like. Number one,

there's no sense in which we can just load up a film of our experience end to end. You know, you can't look back on your last family vacation and kind of play the videotape. You're left with snippets or scenes or moments from the vacation. And furthermore, there's a logic to which moments you recall. And what psychologists have found is that looking back on our experiences, we tend to disproportionately recall two moments in particular, the peak of the experience, which is the most positive moment in a positive the peak of the experience, which is the most positive moment in a positive experience, and the endings. And in fact, in the book, we explain why the beginnings and the ending are both important. You can think of them as transitions.

So what we recall are the peaks and the transitions, exactly like you said. But what we don't remember, and this is fascinating to me, and I think anybody that's been to a theme park can relate to this, is my guess is the majority of moments when we're in a theme park, we would actually be happier sitting on our couch at home. Because it's crowded and it's hot and it's humid and we're standing in line and someone cuts us off and we're irritated. And there's a lot of these kind of micro irritations and micro frustrations that we endure in a theme park. And in memory, those things just fade out. You know, so a year later, what may have been a mostly uncomfortable day at Disney World now seems like one of the highlights of the year. And the reason for that is I don't think we're crazy to think that, by the

way. I think the reason we think that is because the park delivered peak moments that our couches at home will never deliver. But as you pointed out about Walt Disney, you know, that takes forethought. Those remarkable moments don't just create themselves. Well, I think I may be a little bit the exception to the rule because when I go to a thing, I was just at Universal Studios not long ago, and it gets so crowded because it's not a big park. And you know what I remember? I remember the people stepping on the back of my shoe. I remember the people running their stroller into me. I remember doing the dance where you go left and I go right and no, I go right and you go

left. I hate it. And that's what I remember. But you know, what's interesting too is when you go on it or when you tell me if this is more universal than just me, but when I go on a trip and I have this horrible flight there and a relatively horrible flight home, the flights tend to disappear in the background. I don't remember the trip there or the trip home. I remember the vacation. I think that's right. And I think partly this is a definitional issue that's a little tricky is, you know, when does an experience start and end? And so, you know, is the ending of a vacation, the flight home, or is the ending, you know, the last day when you were abroad in Rome? And I think probably for most of us over the long haul, the ending of a vacation, the flight home, or is the ending, you know, the last day when you were abroad in Rome? And I think probably for most of us over the long haul, the ending of the vacation is your last day in Rome, because you're right. I think a lot of the commuting stuff just fades

out naturally. So what do we do with this now that we know this? I mean, clearly, you can do like the Magic Castle Hotel and put a Popsicle hotline in your lobby or by the pool, but not everybody has a hotel. So how else could you imagine this being put to use? So there's this interesting research that says when people look back on their lives, they tend to recall more memories from this period that goes from roughly age 15 to age 30. They call this the reminiscence bump. And it's a puzzle why so many memories, I mean, you could be talking to a 70-year-old and most of the memories they're talking about come from ages 15 to 30. And so the people who studied this basically say that the reason that's so memorable

is because that's a period of firsts in our life. You know, first kiss, first relationship, first time away from mom and dad, first time managing a budget, first job, you know, first child. And these are so profoundly different. You know, they move our lives in such new directions and uncover such novelty that they're unusually memorable. And, of course, in life, what happens is as we get married, as we settle down, as we find a job we like, the amount of novelty we experience just shrinks. I mean, because we're figuring things out. But one consequence of that is that time seems to pass faster, that novelty slows down time and familiarity speeds it up. And so one way to create more moments for ourselves as older adults is to try to break the script, which means to try to disrupt the normal things in the normal way that things flow.

And that might be as simple as disrupting your routine on Saturday. We did a little exercise as part of the research for this book where we just challenged families to tear up their Saturday routine. Because look, we all kind of have the same things that we do on Saturday. We wake up at a similar time and we shuttle the kids around and we eat at the same places. And even that little dash of novelty, I mean, that's a pretty small thing, really seemed to delight these folks. I mean, it was fun for them to try new things, to treat their hometown as if they were a tourist, to go to restaurants they'd never tried before, to do a day trip they'd never contemplated. And so I think one piece of advice is the old saw, variety is the spice of life. Notice it doesn't say variety is the entree of life. You know,

a little bit of variety, a little bit of novelty goes a long way. Well, you know, life is made up of nothing but moments and it's, you know, the ones we remember are the special ones. but also the ones we remember too can be horribly terrible. No question. If you just ask people about the defining moments in their lives, the moments that made them who they are, you get a lot of great, wonderful moments, but you also get some horrible moments. You get moments of trauma, moments of loss, moments of grief. And so we acknowledge that in the book and we say like, look, no discussion of defining moments is complete without that. But we don't spend a lot of time unpacking or studying those moments in the book because our motivation is to show

people how to create more of the good ones, more of the positive moments. We do have an appendix in the book that talks about some of the research, and it's really blossomed in the last 10 years, that shares ways of turning moments of trauma or loss into growth. In fact, the name of the body of research is called post-traumatic growth, and it deals with this kind of unexpected and remarkable finding that often many people benefit over the long run from experiencing losses or difficulties of various kinds, especially health difficulties, interestingly enough, that one study found that the majority of people, the majority,

who'd had a really serious health scare actually said it made their life better, you know, perhaps because it got them focused on the things that mattered, or maybe it simplified some decisions they'd been agonizing about, but that they were actually able to grow from a very, very difficult experience. You know, my mother died many years ago. She died on Christmas Day, and many people have said to me, oh, Christmas must be so hard for you. And it's not, because I have reframed that experience, and I was there when she died on that Christmas Day.

And somehow I've managed to turn that into more of a celebration of her than to dwell on how horrible it was that she died. But I know other people, when they go through a loss like that, it's devastating and some people never recover. Yeah, it's individual. I talked to one grief counselor who said there is no standard. There is no norm for grief that what might take one person weeks of grieving might take another person years. And neither person is abnormal.

It's just a personal endeavor. But I think you're right to say that, that a lot of the way we process loss is about how we frame it. So there's actually some research on, um, the way people tell their own life stories to themselves. And they find that if people can take those, those, those bad moments, those moments of difficulty or trauma, and weave them into a story of how they were able to overcome those situations, how they were able to survive them and adapt, that that storytelling, that ability to see yourself as someone who can survive moments like that is actually really healthy. So give me some homework. Give me and the people

listening something to do to embrace the power of moments. So in the next week, let me challenge everybody listening to this to do what psychologists call a gratitude visit. You may have heard this before, but the idea is you pick someone who's been important in your life, maybe a teacher or an old boss or a mentor, and you write them a letter, just a short letter, just talking about what they've meant to you and how they've made a difference in your life. And then this is the important part. You've got to see their face. So preferably you visit them in person. If they're across the country or something, maybe you just get on Skype video and you read the letter to them. And it's that simple. And would you believe if I told you that research

has suggested that people stay happier for a full month after a visit like that? And I'm talking about the person writing the letter, much less the person who receives a wonderful letter like that. So that is a way that you can create a defining moment in your life, a defining moment in the life of someone who is special to you, and it takes maybe a couple of hours and makes you happy for a full month. How's that for a deal? Great idea. The book is The Power of Moments.

It is by Dan Heath and his brother Chip, and there is a link to his book in the show notes for this episode of the podcast. Thanks for being here, Dan. Mike, thanks a ton. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle.

On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everyone.

Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong?, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our Lister poll results from But Am I Wrong? And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all

things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Perfectionist. It's one of those words that seems to have, you know, some good qualities and some bad qualities. I mean, if you're going to do something, why not do it right? Why not do it perfectly? On the other hand, the world isn't perfect.

We aren't perfect. And having that standard that everything must be perfect can be a heavy burden to bear. Whether you are or are not a perfectionist, or maybe you even know a perfectionist, I think you're going to enjoy hearing clinical psychologist Dr. Elizabeth Lombardo and what she has to say on the topic of perfectionism. She is author of the book, Better Than Perfect, Seven Strategies to Crush Your Inner Critic and Create a Life You Love. Hi, Elizabeth. Welcome. Thanks so much. It's great to be here.

So what is perfectionism? How do you define it? What's your definition? So a lot of people think of perfectionism or those people who have a really neat junk drawer where everything is categorized. But the way that I view perfectionism is much broader. It's an all-or-nothing mentality. Something's perfect or it's a failure. It's right or it's wrong. It's the way that I think things should be or wrong. And that all-or-nothing mentality can really get in the way of our relationships, of our health, and of our functioning in the world.

Because we expect so much. Because we expect so much of others and ourselves. So, you know, a lot of people say to me, well, I'm not really a perfectionist. I know someone who is, but it's not me. And then I ask them to take the better than perfect quiz. And when they do that, they are often amazed at how much perfectionism does play a role in their lives. As a matter of fact, when Better Than Perfect first came out, I did a media tour in one of the interviews on the Today Show. And I had about five producers who were working on the segment. And the head producer pulled me aside and said, just so you know, we all, except for one person, denied being perfectionist until we took your quiz and all of us scored really high. So a lot of times, it's not even something that we are aware of because our society is very all or nothing.

We are very, you made one mistake, so you're a failure kind of mentality. And so a lot of us have internalized that. So help me figure out if I'm a perfectionist or not. What's in that quiz? Help me know. Well, I mean, everything from you think in terms of all or nothing. I had one cookie and messed up my diet. I might as well have the whole plate. You know, that kind of all or nothing.

Are you a procrastinator? So people who put things off tend to be perfectionistic. It's going to be boring. It's going to be hard. I don't know how to do it,. Oh, it's going to be boring. It's going to be hard. I don't know how to do it, so I'm not even going to start. Maybe the perfectionism comes in your work. You made a presentation. You had a conversation with someone, and all you can focus on is that one little mistake that you made. You replayed over and over and over what you should have said, what you shouldn't have said. I call that pressing on a bruise.

It doesn't feel good. But a lot of times we do that to replay it. That's perfectionistic thinking. So what's the difference, though, between being a perfectionist and just wanting to do well and wanting to learn from your mistakes and wanting to get it right the next time? Where's the line? So that second thing that you just described is what I call being better than perfect. A perfectionist thinks in all or nothing terms.

Again, something's perfect or it's a failure, but then they take it one step further. If it's a failure, then I'm a failure. They personalize their failures. They personalize their mistakes. And perfectionism is actually perpetuated, a lot of alliteration there, is actually perpetuated by a fear of failure. People often say, oh, I'm not a perfectionist.

I don't think I'm perfect. No perfectionist thinks they're perfect. A perfectionist is so fearful of failure that they are going to do whatever they can to prevent it from happening. A lot of this, I would imagine, has to do with that little voice inside your head that is constantly telling you, not only do you need to be perfect, but in fact, you suck at everything. Yes. It's that inner critic. And here's the thing. I don't think everyone realizes that every single person has an inner critic. Sometimes it may be silent. Sometimes it may be screaming in your ear.

But we all have an inner critic. And the thing about perfectionism or inner critic is when we are at a low level of stress, when things are going pretty well, that inner critic isn't so loud. Or even if they're speaking to us, we can rationalize it. Oh, come on. I don't suck. I just made a mistake. We can keep that open mentality.

But as stress levels start to increase, that's when we go from seeing everything, putting everything in perspective, to focusing on the negative. In psychology, we call it negative filtering, so focusing almost exclusively on the negative. And this is why someone, a very rational individual, can say, no, no, I know it doesn't have to be perfect. It's okay if I made a mistake. But when stress levels are high, we personalize it. It becomes more overbearing for us. Do you find that people are perfectionist in one or a few areas of their life and maybe not so much in others? Yes, definitely. There are definitely areas, for some people, it's their health. So maybe they're very regimented with their eating or their workouts. For some people it's their work, so they're very meticulous. They're the micromanagers, so even if they have delegated a responsibility off to someone else, they are going to double check and triple check and quadruple check to make sure that those people are doing it. But they may not have that mentality in other areas of their life. And it really goes into our self-worth. How we view ourselves, our worthiness, plays an impact on every single interaction and every single interpretation that we have.

And I like to differentiate between conditional self-worth based on conditions and unconditional self-worth. So conditional self-worth means I believe in myself if. I believe in myself if people agree with me. I believe in myself if I look a certain way, if I have a certain amount of money. I believe in myself if I do things correctly. And that conditional self-worth is, it's very taxing because you're constantly scanning the environment to determine how you're going to view yourself. And when stress levels get higher, we tend to pull into that more, be more conditional in terms of our self-worth. The goal is unconditional self-worth. And unconditional self-worth means you believe in yourself regardless.

Not in a narcissistic, I'm better than everyone else sort of way. That's actually very conditional self-worth. But unconditional self-worth is really based on your values and your core and who you are so that you feel good about yourself and you know you can keep getting better. And that way, mistakes aren't viewed as personal problems with who you are, but just, okay, that was an error. I really messed up there. How can I move on from this?

But it would seem to me that human beings, especially in our culture, need evidence. That if you and your brother start out the same and he's doing really great and everything you try sucks, it's hard to get up and go, I can unconditionally love myself because you now have evidence that you're not doing as well as maybe you should be or maybe you thought you'd be. The evidence is flying right in your face that you've failed. Again, it's the difference between failed and failure. Did I not be as successful as I wanted to be? Yeah, but that doesn't mean that

I suck as a human being. And you're right. As a society, we base our worth on conditions, right? I mean, look at social media. I feel good about myself if I get at least 100 likes or, you know, comparing ourselves to other people, but all of that is very conditional. And just because it is common in our society doesn't mean it's very helpful. The goal is to have unconditional self-worth. You'd be like, I'm good regardless. And when you have that unconditional self-worth, it actually doesn't make you lazy and sitting around eating bonbons. I'm okay, so I don't have to do anything. It allows us to be our true self. It allows us to really pursue our passions and our purpose in a more meaningful way.

Yeah, but it's one thing that I understand, you know, getting likes or not getting likes on Facebook, but if you've lost your job, you can't find another one, you can't pay the mortgage, you can't buy your kid stuff, this isn't likes on Facebook. This is real life stuff that hurts and is hard to pop through and say, but I love myself, I'm still doing great. Because you're not doing great. Well, that's two different things. Love myself internally, doing great externally.

I work a lot with people who have lost their job, and that is an unbelievable blow to a lot of people. A lot of people define themselves. Who am I? I am my job. And so when you lose that, there's a whole sense of loss of identity. I am my job. And so when you lose that, there's a whole sense of loss of identity. I am nothing. But when you can really look and cultivate who you are on something much deeper, it's not that those external events don't hurt. It's not that they aren't difficult,

but it's not an attack. It's not an attack on who you are as an individual. And if you can have unconditional self-worth when going through something like that, then what happens is you're not saying, it's not being delusional. My life's great, even though I can't pay the mortgage and my kids are mad at me because I can't buy them presents. It's really, okay, I believe in myself. I'm going through a tough time right now. I know I can get through this, even though it sucks right now. Yeah. I mean, because part of life, you know, we know that life is up and down. And so I always tell my clients, if you're feeling, and if you're really, really down spot, if you wait long enough, things will get better.

Unfortunately, the same can be said when we're kind of on cloud nine, that inevitably something is going to happen. When we look at the characteristics of true success, things like resiliency, perseverance, grit are really important. And those really require a belief in yourself. Again, not in a delusional way, everything's perfect, but in the sense of, okay, it sucks now and I can get through this. I can handle this. Maybe not by myself. Maybe I need to get some help in terms of coaching or help in terms of social support or whatever it is, but I can do this.

So, Elizabeth, what do you think the difference is between those people who look at adversity and see the silver lining and know things will get better, and those people who say, I suck, my life sucks, I can't deal with this, and really have a problem. Well, yeah, I want to take a step back, because I will tell you, usually people, even those people in that first group who are the resilient ones, fall back into, I suck, I can never do this. So it's not in all or nothing things. A lot of times we're dancing between those two. But one of the, I mean, one of the key characteristics and the differentiators is that sense of self-worth. Am I worth it? Because if we base our worth on conditions, I'm only good if I have a job,

I'm only good and believe in myself if my kids, you know, I can pay for their presents or I can pay for the mortgage. Then when you don't have that, it can really spiral into, you know, anything from, you know, just feeling down to clinical depression where you truly can't. You can't get out of bed. You can't put in your job application. And, you know, a lot of times that's what happens. So the goal then is to say, how can I feel good about myself? How can I take a step, one step in the right direction to get me back on this road? And what is that?

What is that one step do you think that's easy for people to do that might start to give them that sense of control and sense that they're doing better? Well, it's a different step for everyone. I will say one of the things to remember when you're in a really tough place and it feels like you have no control is to look at, I talk about there are two different strategies to dealing with a problem. There's problem focused, changing the problem itself. So if you're unemployed, it's getting a

job. But then there's emotion focused, which is changing your emotional reaction to it. And so, and some of that is that what we call cognitive restriction, changing what you're saying to yourself. But another part of that is stress management. So we talked before about how when our stress level is high, we tend to think in more negative ways. So if you think of your stress level as going from zero to 10, zero is no stress at all. You just got off the massage table. Life is great. Ten is the most stressed you've ever been. If you're feeling angry, you're screaming. If you're feeling anxious, you're having a panic attack.

Usually, luckily, we're not at ten a whole lot of time, and we're not at zero a whole lot of time. We're somewhere in between. When we're at a seven or higher, I call it the red zone. We aren't thinking rationally. It seems like we are, but we're not. We go from using our frontal lobe in lower levels of stress, which is this beautiful structure in the front part of our brain that differentiates us from other animals.

It allows us to engage in problem solving and executive functioning and perspective taking and seeing all different perspectives. When our stress level goes up into that red zone, seven and higher, we move from using that frontal lobe to using our limbic system. Limbic system is a part of your brain that is emotionally based. So I feel lousy, so my life sucks. And then you can only focus on that. So one of the things to do, which sounds ridiculous maybe to some,

is to take steps to reduce that stress to get you out of the red zone. I always tell my coaching clients, if your stress level is higher than a seven, seven or higher, don't let anything out of your mouth because that's when you say something that you're going to later regret. And don't put anything in your mouth because that's when Ben and Jerry's therapy tends to happen. But if you are at a seven or higher, what we have to realize is you are not thinking straight. So even if you're dealing with the death of a loved one, even if you're dealing with, you know, a horrible diagnosis, you want to say, what is my stress level and what can I do to get

it out of the red zone? Because that is when your brain will start to function in a way where you could start to make positive changes. So what does that mean? Well, I mean, you can do deep breathing. You can do relaxation. Usually when you're that elevated at stress, it's hard to do. The best thing to do is to change your state, to move your body, jumping on a bed, going for a walk, dancing to a song that you like, anything that you can do to move your body, jumping, jumping jacks, you know, doing two minutes of pushups, whatever it is. While that may seem like, how is this going to help me get a job? What it does is it gets your brain functioning in a way that you can start to problem-solve

and to take those problem-focused approaches to change the situation. Lastly, when it comes to perfectionism, where does it typically come from? Do you find that perfectionists are the children of perfectionists? Where does that behavior begin, typically? It typically begins in our childhood. And it could be, you know, when you look at perfectionists, sometimes it's the parents who are the perfectionists without realizing they were the perfectionists.

So, ugh, you got a 97. What happened to the other three points? Or it could be, oh, you got an A. I'm so proud of you. And then the child starts to associate, you know, getting the 100% or doing really well with their self-worth. And so they strive to keep going for that. I have to be perfect in order for people to love me.

That makes a lot of sense. I mean, and parents do that with the best of intentions, and yet it can backfire. And that's what's so important to remember. They do it with the best intentions. I can't tell you how many clients I've had who talk about parents, especially dads, and I'm just thinking of a couple male clients with whom I've worked, and their fathers are really hard on them. And we know they were jer but we know they were usually using harsher words than that about their father. But when you take a step back and look at why was your parent acting like that, usually your parent just wanted what was best for you. They wanted you to be successful. They wanted you to

be maybe more successful than they are. Their approach may not have been the best in terms of motivating you to do that, but if you can take a step back and really reinterpret what they wanted from you, it can help change your mindset. So, you know, we talked about better than perfect, and I have a book called Better Than Perfect, and there's seven strategies in there. The first one is called post-mortem your past, which means look at your past. When did this perfectionism develop? What rules did you come up with for you? I have to be perfect in order for people to like me. I can't make a mistake. I had to be the number one on the sports team in order to be successful, in order for my parents to give me a thumbs up or even give me any attention at all. Look at those events and see how you can reinterpret them to be more helpful to you.

Good advice. Almost perfect. Beyond perfect. Clinical psychologist Dr. Elizabeth Lombardo has been my guest. She's author of the book, Better Than Perfect, Seven Strategies to Crush Your Inner Critic and Create a Life You Love. And there is a direct link to her book on Amazon in the show notes for this episode. Thanks, Elizabeth. Thank you, Mike. I appreciate being here. Are you one of those people who worries a lot? You worry about the big project at work.

You worry about whether you unplug the coffee pot. You worry about all kinds of things. And people often tell worriers, oh, don't worry, it doesn't help. Well, actually, it does. According to a study conducted by researchers from Lakehead University in Ontario, people who worry also tend to score higher

on verbal intelligence tests. In other words, all that ruminating before you go to sleep is actually sharpening your critical thinking skills. And you know how you spend hours rehashing old conversations in your mind, just obsessing about what you should have said or should have done differently? Well, it turns out that's actually training your mind to respond intelligently if a similar situation happens in the future. That's the podcast today. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening

to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro,

who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot,

and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook. Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first

is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl

named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.