Something You Should Know - How to Deal with Defensive People & Understanding the Mother-Son Relationship

Episode Date: May 7, 2020

Why are names so hard to remember? This episode begins with an explanation and an experiment that explains why so many of us forget people’s names and what we can do to remember names better. http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2017/03/the-moses-illusion-explains-why-you-cant-remember-names.html Do you ever get defensive? Actually we all do. We also have to deal with others who get defensive with us. What is going on here? Why do people get defensive? It turns out to be all about fear according to Jim Tamm. For 20 years, Jim worked as a judge helping defensive people resolve their disputes. Today he is a consultant with his own firm called Radical Collaborations (https://www.radicalcollaboration.com) and he is author of the book Radical Collaborations: Five Essential Skills to Overcome Defensiveness and Build Successful Relationships (https://amzn.to/2VVYJhN) . As an expert on defensiveness, Jim explains where it comes from and how to deal with it both within ourselves and others.  The relationship between a mother and son is interesting to say the least – yet it isn’t talked about a lot. Pediatrician Dr. Meg Meeker believes that there is so much going on in every mother-son relationship and it is time to bring it out into the open. Dr Meeker is the author of the book Strong Mothers, Strong Sons (https://amzn.to/2y9ZV8h) and she joins me to help explain the mother-son relationship and offers advice on how to make it better. Do you ever suffer from “ring anxiety?” It is the belief or the sensation that your cell phone is ringing when it isn’t. It happens to a lot of people. Why? Listen as I explain. http://www.realsimple.com/work-life/technology/ringxiety-linked-insecurity-study This Week's Sponsors -Better Help. Get 10% off your first month by going to www.BetterHelp.com/sysk and use the promo code: sysk The Zebra. Compare and save money on car insurance. Go to www.TheZebra.com/sysk  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, why it's so hard to remember people's names and what you can do about it. Then we all get defensive and have to deal with others who get defensive. So let's understand what's going on. Most of us think that when we get defensive,

we think that we're defending ourselves from other people. But that's not really what's going on when we get defensive. We're not defending ourselves from other people. We are defending ourselves from fears inside of us that we don't want to feel. Plus, do you ever think your cell phone is ringing when it really isn't? And the special relationship between mothers and sons, and why it often hits bumps along the way. Mothers, I have found, are harder on their daughters than they are their sons, because we see our daughters as little mini-us. But for our sons, we're not quite sure, and

we tend to parent them far too long. We don't want to let our boys go. All this today on Something You Should Know. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more.

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openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts.

And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome. advice you can use in your life today something you should know with mike carothers hi welcome the one thing probably at the top of my list to do when we can get back to life as normal whenever that is is to get a haircut i am so glad this is not a video podcast is my hair my hair is just i've I can't remember it ever being this long. Same with my boys. I mean, even they, when they like to have their hair long, this is getting, this is getting ridiculous.

But in the meantime, I just avoid mirrors and wait it out. We start the podcast today talking about the problem of remembering names. If you have trouble with that, well, you're in good company. It's not easy. And we now have a better understanding as to why it's so hard to remember names. It's called the Moses Illusion. So here's the question. How many of each animal did Moses bring on the ark?

If you said two, you're wrong. The answer is zero because Moses didn't bring any animals on the ark. Noah did. If you said two, you're wrong. The answer is zero because Moses didn't bring any animals on the ark, Noah did. The question is part of a classic psychology experiment called the Moses Illusion, first developed in a 1981 study to test memory and reading comprehension. Both names refer to male biblical characters, Moses and Noah, and they're both associated with miracles. And these shared features create competition for recalling the correct name at the correct time. This in turn makes it more difficult for people to detect the error, even though most people know the difference, between Noah and Moses. Names are

essentially just syllable soup. They're meaningless labels that usually do not reveal any telling information about the person to whom they refer. That's why they're so easy to forget unless you associate them with something else. And that is something you should know. Here's a comment I'm sure you've heard or said to someone else. Don't be so defensive. Or why are you getting so defensive? So why do we get defensive? And what is all this defensiveness doing? Well, it appears to be causing a lot of problems, because it makes communication hard when you get defensive, or the person you're talking with gets defensive. Here with some really interesting insight into this is Jim Tam. For 20 years, Jim was an administrative law judge who was right in the thick of this, helping to resolve disputes between people who were, by definition, pretty defensive.

He now has a business called Radical Collaboration, where he helps people get beyond defensiveness. And he's author of a book called Radical Collaboration. Hey, Jim, welcome. Thank you. It's good to be here, Mike. So help me understand defensiveness, what it is, where it comes from, and why it's such a problem. The problem with defensiveness is we tend to put, when we get defensive, we tend to put more energy into self-preservation than problem solving. Now in my 20 years as a judge dealing with employment disputes, I almost never had to deal with pure legal issues. People were typically before me because somebody was feeling vulnerable. And when that happened, then they get defensive. And when we get defensive,

our thinking becomes rigid. Our IQ drops about 20 points and we simply become stupid. And not only are we terrible at solving problems, but we tend to invite everybody else in the room to get defensive as well. So we have a whole room filled with bad problem solvers at that point. Well, when you explain it like that, it makes you wonder what purpose, if any, does it serve and where did it come from? Why did we ever get defensive? Typically, our defensive behaviors were behaviors that we learned much earlier in our life. And they were behaviors that gave us some shelter or protection from situations that we didn't have much control over. Let me give you an example.

If you're a little kid and your parents are fighting all the time, this can be a very scary situation for a little kid. So a really good strategy might be to turn all this anger and all the fighting that's going on between the parents into background noise, right? So just gray noise back there. Now that is a really helpful strategy for that little kid. But if that kid takes that same strategy into their adult life, it is a horrible strategy because then what it means is anytime they get into a conflict situation, they become a lousy listener because they've learned that that's something that could help them as a kid, but it undermines them as an adult. So we have all of these behaviors and the strategy that we try to do is get people to better

understand what defensiveness is about, recognize when they're getting defensive at an earlier point in the process before it's too late and the damage is done, and then develop an action plan for when they do get defensive. All right, so let's start with that. Yeah, see, most of us think that when we get defensive, we think that we're defending ourselves from other people. Somebody's done something to us, and so we need to protect ourselves from that other person. But that's not really what's going on when we get defensive. We're not defending ourselves from other people. We are defending ourselves from fears inside of us that we don't want to feel.

And so we behave in a way that lets us stay unaware of those fears. The three fears that come up all the time are fears about our own significance, our competence, and our likability. If people get fearful about that, they oftentimes will get defensive. Let me give an example of that. Say I have some fears about doing this podcast today and say I'm not prepared. I've flown in from Europe and I'm jet lagged and I'm tired and I'm taking things out of order and I'm not paying attention. I don't know what I'm doing. Now, this could cause me a lot of discomfort because I hate feeling incompetent. But one way that I could reduce the amount of discomfort that I'm feeling is I might start blaming you.

You know, it's like you're not asking the right questions. You're not giving me enough time to prep. You should have given me the questions ahead of time. You know, I'm making it all your fault. So I don't have to feel my own fear. So it seems like I'm defending myself against you, but what I'm really doing is I'm behaving in a way that lets me stay unconscious about those fears. what we can do to help them deal with it more effectively is for them to spot what their behaviors are as they're starting to get defensive because the fears that we have inside of us are almost all unconscious stuff so we don't even recognize that we're getting defensive until it's too late and the damage is already done so we're unaware of these fears because that's the whole point of the defense system.

So if we can help people become more aware of what their behaviors are when they're starting to get defensive, that can act as an early warning system for them. And what typically might those things be? Well, for me, for example, I've noticed over the years that when I start getting defensive, I start talking louder. I start breathing a lot faster. I feel very misunderstood. And so if I'm in a room and I'm getting some feedback and I notice that I'm talking louder and breathing faster and feeling kind of misunderstood, the alarm bells can go off. You know, ding, ding, ding. Hey, Jim, pay attention. So it's important for people to know what their behaviors are, what these outward signs of defensiveness are, because they're easier to spot. We've got a list of about 50 of them. You want me

to give you some common examples here? Sure. Loss of humor, taking offense, high charge of energy in the body, sudden drop in IQ, wanting the last word, flooding with information to prove a point, withdrawal into deadly silence. That's one of my favorites too. Being very critical or making fun of others or blaming or shaming others. We've got this long list, and we have people take a look at it and pick out their top three. And then they need to be on the lookout for those top three because those are going to be their personalized early warning system. And if people don't know what their signs are, oftentimes we'll say, well, go talk to your family members.

Family members are quite willing to help out on this exercise. All right, so I get that, because I heard myself in many of those things that you just listed, so I can recognize it, but I wouldn't know how to turn it off. I've been doing it forever, so has everybody else. So how do you then do something else when that's your default? Well, that's the key. Once you come up with your early warning system, these top three, once you know what your behaviors are, then you need to be on the lookout for them. And then when you see them, then there's a number of things that you can do.

Probably the most important thing is acknowledge to yourself that you're getting defensive. Now, that may not seem like it's a big deal, but it is a huge first step. Because if you don't notice it, and if you don't acknowledge to yourself that you're getting defensive, you won't take any other action. Then once you notice it, then you can try to slow down your physiology and try and re-engage your whole brain. When we start getting defensive, we tend to get tunnel vision and a good portion of our brain just shuts down. The prefrontal cortex shuts down and that's the part of the brain that helps us solve problems. So we don't have access to that. So if you can slow down your physiology and then maybe focus outward in the room, try to look around and see how many different colors you can see,

how many different sounds you're hearing, physical sensations. Notice your feet on the floor, your arm on the armchair, the coat, how it rubs up against your sleeve, those kinds of things. And that can help re-engage some of your brain. So that's focusing outward. The next thing is to focus inward and try and figure out what the fear is about, what the real underlying fear is about, whether you're feeling significant enough or competent enough or likability enough or whatever the underlying fear might be. Then the next step would be to try to create an action plan that's going to moderate the damage of your signs of defensiveness.

And so, of course, those are going to be different for everybody. But say your sign is flooding with information to prove a point, then maybe your action plan will be simply to be quiet for 15 seconds. Now, that won't help you if your sign is withdrawal into silence. You know, then what you need to do is you need to speak up and ask a question or stay engaged in a conversation somehow. Maybe tell the other party that you're getting defensive. If you have high energy in your body, maybe take a walk or visualize some relaxing place out in the countryside. Or if it's all or nothing thinking, maybe, you know, you only see things in black or white. Anytime you see yourself or feel yourself getting polarized like that, think of a sentence

like, look for the gray, to try to remind you that it doesn't have to be all or nothing, doesn't have to be black or white. And so the things that you need to pay the most attention to are, first of all, noticing that you're getting defensive, that's your early warning sign, and then practicing your action step, this action plan, because you want it to be automatic. We're talking about defensiveness, and we're talking about it with Jim Tam, former administrative law judge and author of the book Radical Collaboration. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining,

a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years.

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There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So Jim, it would seem that if you're being defensive, it's because someone's being offensive. They're attacking. And it seems like it would be hard to keep looking inward and looking for your clues and what you're feeling when people are attacking you. Most of the time, when we're getting defensive, if you can stay non-defensive, it won't necessarily feel like an attack. I mean, they may have disagreements with you. They may argue that you're doing something wrong or everything, but it won't necessarily feel like it's a personal attack out to get you if you can stay non-defensive. And that's the most important

thing that you can do when you're dealing with somebody else who's getting defensive or coming after you. You know, we've all seen these pictures of the Aikido master in the middle of the room who's fighting off the, you know, 20 warriors at the same time. They can only do that as long as they stay centered and don't get angry and stay focused on what they're doing. But if they get angry and they become fearful, then they're going to lose it. And that's what happens when you get defensive. So if you can realize the other person is doing this typically because they're fearful about something, I mean, they're getting defensive also, or they wouldn't be attacking. They'd be trying to problem solve. So, you know, if you can keep that in mind,

and then you can stay non-defensive, you'll be much more effective. So, what's interesting about this is that it seems to me, as I think about situations in my life, that defensive reactions, getting defensive in a conversation with somebody is a very emotional reaction. And we're talking here in very calm, pleasant tones about how, you know, what you should do when that happens. But people are very emotional, and that's when all this goes out the window. You know, if you can't do it in the moment, what we encourage people to do is to go back as soon as they can after the situation and visualize the situation once again as though they're typically more able to do that later on when they're looking back on the situation than when they're in the situation. They acknowledge it.

They see themselves acknowledging to themselves that they're getting defensive. They try to slow down their physiology. They try to focus on the fear. Then they try to implement this action plan of theirs. And they see themselves as they visualize it. They see themselves doing that. And if you can do that process afterwards, yeah, it may not help that particular situation. But what they're doing is they're creating new neural pathways in their brain, which is going to make it easier for them to stay present, to not get defensive the next time it comes up. And then if they keep practicing, then they'll be able to handle themselves in very difficult situations. So it's, you know, taking little baby steps. So let's talk about when roles are reversed here. Not that you're getting defensive,

but you're talking to someone and they're getting defensive with you. So how does that conversation go? Sure. Good question. Let me talk about what's the least helpful thing you can do, okay? And that's don't point out to the other party that they're getting defensive. Don't start by doing that. That's what a lot of us want to do. Wow, you're getting defensive here, aren't you? And if you've ever been feeling defensive and someone points that out to you, you know how unhelpful that is. It's like pouring gas on a fire.

So first of all, don't do that. Second of all, you stay non-defensive. Try not to get triggered. Try not to take it personally, right? Then put a lot more energy into listening to what the other party is saying, because oftentimes people will get defensive if they're not feeling heard. If people really feel heard and understand and understood, I mean, even if you disagree with them, oftentimes that will not be as triggering as if you're just ignoring them or you clearly don't have a clue about what they're talking about. So we encourage people to use all those active listening skills that most of us have

been taught and most of us ignore most of the time. You know, summarize what you're hearing from the other person, feed it back, check for understanding, be nonjudgmental, ask open questions, all those kinds of listening skills. Put a lot more energy into that. And then, once you have a good understanding of what the other person is thinking and feeling, then in order to resolve the differences that you may have with this other person. Use this interest-based approach. Talk more about what the interests of both parties are. Look for the overlap there. Look for the area where there might be some meetings of the mind in there. And just paying attention to those few things can make a big difference in solving problems. You used the phrase a moment ago, don't take it personally.

Is that feeling of taking it personally the same thing as defensiveness, or is that a symptom of, if not? Yeah, that's a big part of it, because oftentimes if I'm talking to somebody and they're getting angry or they're attacking me or something, it's because they're fearful about something too. So if I can sit back in my own mind, I don't have to say anything about this, but if I can sit back and say, all right, well, they're feeling emotional about something. So what's going on there? What am I saying or doing that might be triggering them? How am I contributing to their attitude right at the moment? So maybe if I stay calm, if I can be asking more questions, if I can be trying to learn more about what's going on

inside of them, that's a good way to help diffuse the situation. If you can do it. If somebody's screaming and yelling at you, it seems so hard to sit there and go, well, they're being defensive. Let me just think about this. And they're being abusive. It may feel like we're being abused if we start getting defensive too. But I think it's perfectly legitimate to set some clear boundaries. In fact, when we're teaching collaboration skills, one of the things we say is if you're going to be good at collaboration, you also need to be good at setting clear boundaries. You have to be able to say no if your yes is going to mean anything, you know. So it's very legitimate to say, listen, I want to hear what you have to say. I want to understand your position, but I'm not going to allow you to be screaming at me. That is not acceptable behavior. So let's

reschedule this meeting for a time when you can, you know, be a little calmer, unless you want to tone down right now. It does seem that, well, that this sounds hard, that if you've been the kind of person who gets defensive or if you're dealing with someone who's being defensive, it's hard to act and react the way you're talking about. Well, one thing that helps too is if you have a compassionate attitude towards yourself. If you are trying to change your behavior and become less defensive, but you beat yourself up every time you get defensive, that's not going to help. That's like trying to get a turtle to stick its neck out by pounding on the shell. You know, you need to let yourself feel safe. Cut yourself a little slack.

Be compassionate. Be charitable with yourself. Recogn safe. Cut yourself a little slack. Be compassionate. Be charitable with yourself. Recognize that this is a human condition. It's going to happen. So if you get defensive, you notice it, you acknowledge it to yourself, you take some action, you try to correct the situation you're in, and then afterwards, you know, you do your little after-action review if you can. Then let it go and move on. And don't keep beating yourself up, because it's never in your best interest to keep punishing yourself for something like this. Otherwise, it's just going to make it worse.

And so tell me that with all that you know and all your experience as a judge, you still lose it. Come on. There have to be. Yes. Yes, I do. Come on. There have to be. Yes, I do. Thank God. Not nearly as often or as badly as I did 40 years ago. Well, it's a subject that we can all relate to

because we all have to deal with our own defensiveness as well as the defensiveness coming from other people. So it's really good to get some insight and some advice on how best to deal with it. Jim Tam has been my guest for 20 years. Jim was an administrative law judge. He now has a business called Radical Collaboration, where he helps people get beyond defensiveness and helps them to collaborate. And he's author of the book, Radical Collaboration. There's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Jim.

Thanks, Mike. It's been a pleasure to be here. I love talking about this subject, so I appreciate the opportunity. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show,

we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong?, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our Lister poll results from But Am I Wrong?

And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. You know, there are plenty of books and conversations about mother-daughter relationships and about father-son relationships, but you don't hear as much about the mother-son relationship. Yet, in some households, a mother is a son's only parent, and in almost every case, the mother-son relationship is special, unique, and extremely important. Meg Meeker is a medical doctor, and she's really studied the relationship

between opposite-gender parents and children. She's author of a book called Strong Mothers, Strong Sons. So welcome, Dr. Meeker, and explain what it is you see that is so important about the mother-son relationship. Well, I think it's very important today because it's difficult for the parent who is trying to parent the opposite-sex child to understand what the needs of the child are and to understand, you know, particularly with mothers and sons, when you need to move into their lives and when you need to gently pull back. And it's very important because boys need their mothers to do that. There are a lot of mothers who don't understand what their boys need. And particularly because we're living in a time where many of the boy experts, if you will, you know, Dr. William Pollack and Leonard Sachs talk about the boy crisis, where boys are falling behind in

school. Boys are much more likely to be diagnosed with attention deficit hyperactivity and different learning disorders as well. There's a whole lot mothers can do. So I really wrote the book to open mothers' eyes to what their boys need and what they don't need, and how mothers can enjoy a richer, deeper, really more fun relationship with their boys. So in a broad sense, what do boys need and what do boys not need from their mother? During the first 10 years, boys need a lot of security to come from their mothers. They need a lot of time. They need affection. They need a bonding. For instance, mothers bond with their

children, particularly their daughters, by talking to them. Boys, however, bond with parents and other people more by doing activities together. So there's one instance where I say, moms, you know, you may want to bond with your son during his second, third, fourth grade years by talking a lot, but he really just wants to go bike riding with you and he wants to spend more time with you. So it's really important for mothers in those first 10 years of life to give boys a strong sense of security, a comfort with themselves. Mothers need to help boys sort of identify their feelings and then learn what to do with those feelings in a healthy way, you know, anger and sadness. But then during those pre-adolescent years,

boys pull away from their mothers. Daughters don't, but boys do because developmentally, they need to do that to develop emotionally into an emotionally and psychologically healthy young man. Very painful time for moms. Mom needs to understand what's going on. So, you know, and then a little bit later on in a boy's life after high school, he again pulls away and then he pulls away again when he goes to get married. Again, these are things that mothers don't experience with daughters. They do experience with them with sons. So I found educating mothers and helping them through these different phases will help

them ultimately have a better adult relationship with their sons. This pulling away, the way you describe it, is just a natural part of growing up, right? Absolutely. Bruno Bettelheim used to say that during their early adolescent years, boys quote, kill off their mother. It's kind of a, you know, a violent wording. But really what he means is that boys need to emotionally detach a little bit because with the puberty coming on and they're sensing their maleness coming out in a much stronger way and they feel very close to their mothers, hopefully, but they don't know. It just feels a

little bit creepy, if you will. They're close to this woman. They love this woman, but now they're a different person and they're male and they need to figure all that out. So in order to do that, they need to emotionally distance themselves. Not completely. It's not a complete tearing away, but it's very painful for mothers because mothers begin to feel that their sons don't like them anymore. Boys get a little snarly. They get snappy. They look at their mothers like, I don't need you. Everything in their body language is, I don't need you. Of course, down deep, they do need their mother and they're conflicted about that, but they don't want to. So when mothers understand this is a normal, healthy process that my son

needs to go to, we don't chase after them and say, what's wrong? What's wrong? We don't take it personally. We learn to ride with it and to sort of let them pull away, but be ready when they want to come back and be closer to us, which they do. In a healthy relationship, they will. And that's one of the things I tell mothers, but boys won't come back and be close to you again if you don't let them move away. When will they be back? That's the million-dollar question. I always tell mothers, your job is to raise a healthy 25-year-old son or daughter. And the reason I say 25 is because that's when they have full cognitive maturity, full intellectual maturity, and psychologically they're on much firmer ground.

Usually mothers don't have to wait until their sons are 25 to have a healthy, strong, good relationship. Boys come back, if you will will during the teen years whenever a boy begins to feel more comfortable with his masculine identity and more comfortable with who he is separate from his mother as an individual a lot of boys feel that at 15 16 17 some boys don't and it doesn't come till they're 20 um but at least the snarliness that mom gets at 13 or 14 usually goes away when a boy is 15 or 16. It can come up again when he leaves home and he's living off on his own or he's going off to college,

and then it comes back again. And then, again, that final separation when he goes to get married, mom needs to realize, I cannot be between him and his wife if they're to have a healthy relationship. I need to sort of stay on the periphery. But once they get a solid marriage and they're on solid ground, there's a real strong place for me to be present in my son's life with really firm boundaries. And while this is happening, when boys pull away and get snarly, are they not also doing it to their fathers?

Not as much. You know, it's interesting. They tend to pull away more from their mothers for a couple of reasons. First of all, we're female. And I really believe that the development of the masculine sexuality is contingent on the healthy feminine sexuality, if you will, sort of the opposite sharpens the opposite. So there's more thorniness there. There's more sort of figuring out who I am as a male and you're female. The teen years for boys are really about looking towards dad as the male role model,

the male identity. And as a boy separates from mom, he sort of visually goes towards dad and said, that's who I want to be. And they pick out pieces of their dad and they want to figure out what do I want to emulate and what do I not want to emulate. So in a way, they want to draw closer to their dad during their teen years in an ideal world and separate more from mom during their teen years because she's female. The second reason that they tend to pull away from mom more than dad is that usually boys feel a little more emotionally connected to their mothers. Again, because we're the ones who spend more time with our sons. We're the ones who pick them up when they cry. We don't say, you know, hey, when somebody hurts your feelings in second grade, don't cry.

You need to just man up. That's the way it is. Moms don't do that. Moms go, oh, come to me. It's okay. You know, so they tend to feel a little bit closer to mom, feel a little more secure in their relationship with mom. That's why they pull away more as they go to be more independent in the early teen years. Do you know, is it the case that when boys pull away from their

mothers as they start to mature, is this true across cultures and across time? Is this a fairly universal thing? You know, it really is. And interestingly enough, it's a great question because there are things that we do in the American culture that are very, you know, they seem to be peculiar just to the American culture. For instance, the whole way, you know, our teenagers, we approach our teenagers like they turn into monsters from 13 to 18 and they kind of go wild and do this all piercing. That's really not normal. A lot of kids want to stay much more connected to their parents during their teen years. However, the pulling away and the separation of a boy from his mother crosses all cultures and it crosses all socioeconomic divides and it crosses, you know, in different countries as well because it's the normal growing up of the male, the male identity through the different stages in his life. And since all males have a mother, then they all need to go through that shifting of their relationship with their mother, whether they have a good relationship with mom or whether they don't. This is something that all boys have to go, a process all boys have to go through

to be a strong man. And what is your experience as to, do women, do moms get it, or are moms surprised when this happens and hurt, or do they sort of intuitively understand what's going on? You know, I don't think we intuitively understand, and I write books really not so much for other people, but myself, because we need to figure, authors need to figure stuff out. So we write books so that we learn things. And after raising a son and three daughters, my husband and I, when it came to my son, I just was always scratching my head and I just couldn't get

what was going on. And my husband would often say, give him space. You don't need to understand now. You don't need to understand. And I think that we mothers who really want to parent our sons well, and all of our kids, we really want to understand. There's some things we just can't understand until somebody comes along and says, here's how your son sees you. So we put on the glasses that allow us to sit behind our son's eyes and go, aha, now I get what he wants and how he sees the world and how he sees me. And I think that that doesn't always come through intuition. It comes through, you know, understanding and teaching. And because boys think very differently, they bond very differently, they communicate very differently. Yes, they feel similarly and they

feel, you know, hurt is hurt and pain and sorrow and anger are all the same. But what gets us to those places are very different. So I think that it's important for mothers to understand because when we experience pushback from our sons, we always assume it's our fault. No matter what, good mothers, when they see things going wrong in their kids' lives, or they see their kids unhappy, or they see their kids going through something, no matter what the cause, we always assume, A, we caused it somehow, and B, there's something we can do about it because we're a mom. And I think that when we understand, no, we didn't cause it, and no, there's not always something we need to do about it. We don't always need to correct. We need to just stick with our

sons as they go through these phases. Boy, that releases, that frees us up so much, and we can really enjoy being moms. But if we're all bound up and feeling guilty and feeling like we need to change something, it ties us in knots and makes our roles as moms really pretty tough. You know, I've never heard this discussed before, and yet it seems that it affects so many people, but I've never heard anybody actually come out and say, this always is likely to happen with you and your son, so be prepared.

It's interesting that you say that, because I agree. Interestingly enough, a lot of the research and the study going on in boys is done by men. And I think that's logical because men understand boys. And to you listening to what I'm saying, you go, well, sure, well, sure, well, sure. Well, see, we women don't know this. And I was so taken aback when I had letters from men after I wrote Strong Fathers, Strong Daughters who said, thank you for showing us how girls see us because we never got this. When you're trying to parent the opposite sex, there's so much that you just don't understand. So I think it's the fact that as a woman and as a mom, I came at

this from a very different perspective than maybe some of the other, you know, boy gurus out there who are men because they wrote with a different sensibility and understanding that I as a mom and a woman and a pediatrician would. So you're right. That's been my experience as I've been talking about the book is people are like, well, why hasn't anybody broached this before? But I think it's because, you know, the opposite sex involvement here. But you're really talking about, well, at least in this interview,

helping moms understand it, whereas many of the male boy gurus are talking about helping the boys do what boys do. You're talking about moms doing what they do with their boys. Exactly. But here's where we stumble, where we mothers stumble. In our earnestness to parent our sons really well, we parent them very much like we parent our daughters. We pour it on. We go after them. We talk to them. We coddle them. We do everything for them. We don't want them to fail. We don't want them to hurt. We don't want them to fall down. We want to make their life as easy as possible. But you know you cannot grow up to be a strong man if you have a mom who's always doing that for you. Interestingly enough, mothers, I have found,

in general, are harder on their daughters than they are their sons because we see our daughters as little mini us. You know, we know what they can take, we know what they can do, and we're going to drive them. But for our sons, we're not quite sure. So we tend to be a little overbearing, and we tend to not let them go, and we tend to parent them far too long. We don't want to let our boys go.

But if we want men, if we want to help raise men, we have to pull back. We have to let go. We've got to confront that. And that's very hard for eager, earnest moms who adore their sons. We don't want to let them hurt and fall and figure out life because that's what we're supposed to do for them. So this is why the book is so important, is to help moms understand, A, you're making your life way too hard, and B, you need to back off. Because honestly, Mike, I know women out there with 25, 6, 7-year-old sons who are really hard for their daughter-in-laws to live with because these moms won't let go. Because we believe as good moms, our job, if we're really

good moms, is to quote-unquote stay close to our boys forever. But we don't know what that really means. And we cross boundaries all the time. Is there any reason to believe, or is there any evidence, that if moms didn't do what you're talking about, if they didn't try to hold on so much, that sons wouldn't pull away so much? You know, I think you're right. I do. I absolutely do.

Because, and this pulling away is very, very tricky. You know, I tell every mother, when every mother looks at her newborn baby boy, there's this horrible sense you have that one day he's going to leave you. You don't have that with a daughter, because daughters don't have to leave their mom or their dad. But when you have a son and you're a mother and you adore this little boy, and you know that one day he'll leave and get married, this sort of grieving process starts. And what we need to understand is if we get what's going on and we understand that our goal is to have a really great relationship with our adult sons,

we relax more, we don't cling to them, we don't claw after them. That's a very harsh thing to say, but I say that as a mother who's wanted to do that with my own son, is to hang on, you know, not let go. If we relax and let go, they are much less likely to pull away as hard and as long. Because the more we want to hang on to our sons, and again, this doesn't come overtly. It's sort of this subtle language that mothers have with their sons. Boys know it and

we know it, but when we communicate somehow to our sons that we can't let go, that drives the boys far away and they don't want to come back because they know it's not healthy. So if we learn to roll with it and to stand back and to let them go, when they pull away, it won't be as fierce and it won't last as long. You're absolutely right. Well, this is not only interesting, but I suspect it comes as a relief to a lot of mothers who probably feel like, you know, why is it just me and my son that are having this issue,

or why do I feel this way? It's pretty much inherent in the relationship between mothers and sons as they go through these times in life. Pediatrician Dr. Meg Meeker has been my guest. She is author of the book Strong Mothers, Strong Sons, and you will find a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Have you ever suffered from ringxiety? Almost everyone has.

It's that experience of the phantom ring on your cell phone. You think it's ringing or vibrating, but when you check it, it was nothing. It was just your imagination. But interestingly, it happens to some people more than others. Some scientists looked into it and found that people who were more insecure or anxious about their love relationships experienced phantom ringing more than other people, particularly if they were expecting a call. The need for reassurance from a partner caused people to hear their phone ringing even when it wasn't. And while this may be an occasional annoyance,

there's growing awareness that ringxiety may result in both immediate and longer negative health effects, including headache, stress, and sleep disturbances. And that is something you should know. If you are a subscriber to this podcast, many thanks for doing that. And if you're not a subscriber, it's easy to do, it's completely free, and then the episodes are sent to you, and you don't have to remember to come get them. Just subscribe on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you're listening on.

I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro,

who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook. Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan.

Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Rob Benedict. And I am Richard Spate. We were both on a little show you might know called Supernatural. It had a pretty good run, 15 seasons, 327 episodes. And though we have seen, of course, every episode many times, we figured, hey, now that we're wrapped, let's watch it all again. And we can't do that alone.

So we're inviting the cast and crew that made the show along for the ride. We've got writers, producers, composers, directors, and we'll, of course, have some actors on as well, including some certain guys that played some certain pretty iconic brothers. It was kind of a little bit of a left-field choice in the best way possible. The note from Kripke was, he's great, we love him,

but we're looking for like a really intelligent Duchovny type. With 15 seasons to explore, it's going to be the road trip of several lifetimes. So please join us and subscribe to Supernatural then and now.