Something You Should Know - How to Decide Which Risks Are Worth Taking & How to Stop Being too Nice

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Starting point is 00:00:17 You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, is it a moot point or a mute point? Espresso or expresso? Etc. or etc.? We'll look at some commonly misused words and phrases.

Starting point is 00:00:44 Then, how risky are you? And how does your age affect how much risk you'll take? There is something about having your peers around you in the teenage years which really downplays risk. You're much more interested in impressing your friends and trying these things than you are in thinking about the outcome. Also, the most common reasons cars break down, and they're all preventable reasons. And too many of us are just too nice, and that needs to change. And that involves saying, hey, you know what?

Starting point is 00:01:15 Other people and their needs and their desires matter, but so do mine. And I think the habitual nice person devalues their own needs, dismisses their own wants, and is very self-sacrificing. All this today on Something You Should Know. This episode is brought to you by Melissa and Doug. Wooden puzzles and building toys for problem solving and arts and crafts for creative thinking, Melissa and Doug makes toys that help kids take on the world. Because the way they play today shapes who they become

Starting point is 00:01:45 tomorrow melissa and doug the play is pretend the skills are real look for melissa and doug wherever you shop for toys something you should know fascinating intel the world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. You know, something podcasting has, as an industry, has done pretty well is figured out how to count how many people are listening. But one thing podcasting, which is a relatively new medium, one thing podcasting, as an industry, doesn't do One thing podcasting as an industry doesn't do all that well is figure out who is listening. It's all kind of vague and their estimates and

Starting point is 00:02:32 we go by anecdotal evidence from emails, that kind of thing. But that's a long way of saying that it's always good to hear from you, a listener, because it gives us a little more piece of the puzzle as to who listens. So you're always welcome to contact me. I read all the emails. I reply to all the emails that need a reply or ask for a reply. And my email address is mike at somethingyoushouldknow.net. First up today, words and phrases that get warped and misused over time. The problem is that a lot of those words and phrases become commonplace, but they're still warped and misused and consequently incorrect. Here are some commonly misused words and phrases that you want to make sure you're not using.

Starting point is 00:03:21 A mute point. The correct phrase is a moot point. Mute means silent. A moot point is something that is subject to debate or a matter of no importance. Espresso. Strong coffee in a tiny cup has no X in it, either in writing or pronunciation. It is espresso, not expresso. Jive with the facts. This phrase is used to say that something isn't correct as, hey, that doesn't jive with the facts. But jive is defined as a colorful form of speaking or as referring to a certain kind of jazz or swing music.

Starting point is 00:04:00 The correct phrase is jibe, with a b, jibe with the facts. Jibe means to agree, etc. Pronounce etc. exactly how it is spelled. The first syllable is et, not ek. Overuse of the word literally. A lot of people throw this word around as an embellishment to intensify whatever they're trying to say, but literally means actually or in a strict sense. So you can't say my head literally exploded because if it did, your head would have exploded. 80s. When people write the abbreviation for a decade, like 80s or 70s or 90s, they typically write 80 apostrophe S.

Starting point is 00:04:50 But the correct way is to write it apostrophe 80S. The apostrophe goes in front to replace the 19 of 1980. There's no apostrophe between the 0 and the S because there's no reason to put an apostrophe there. And that is something you should know. One of the fascinating things that really defines who we are and where we go is our ability and willingness to take risks. Think about it. If you never take risks, you never get anywhere. Taking risks is how we move forward in life, literally and figuratively. But taking risks can also be, well, risky.

Starting point is 00:05:38 Risky in the bad sense of the term, that you're being too risky. Because taking a risk implies you could fail, and if you're too risky, you could fail a lot, and, well, that you're being too risky. Because taking a risk implies you could fail, and if you're too risky, you could fail a lot, and well, that's not good. So let's dive a little deeper into the topic of risk with somebody who has really studied it. Kate Sukal is a journalist and author of the book The Art of Risk, The New Science of Courage, Caution, and Chance. Hi, Kate. Welcome. So what's your interest in this subject

Starting point is 00:06:07 of risk-taking? I mean, you write about a lot of things as a journalist, and you have another book about love and sex. So why risk-taking? My parents had always talked about me and said that I was a risk-taker. And I kind of approached 40, and it stopped. So I was kind of curious about that. If risk-taking is supposedly this innate quality, where had it gone? At the same time, you know, my son was getting older and I was watching him explore the world. And I was also sort of curious, you know, how he was set up. How much of risk is biological? How much of it is the environment? And can you learn to be a good risk taker?

Starting point is 00:06:46 Well, what's interesting to me about risk is it's one of those words that it kind of depends on how you say it as to whether it's a good or bad thing. You know, it's too risky or, wow, he's so successful because he's a risk taker. And it's the same word, but it can go either way. And there's no in-betweens, right? It's either risk is the thing is going to kill you and bankrupt you, maybe in the reverse order. It's going to ruin your life, or it's the thing that's going to make you great. It's the thing that's going to make all of your dreams come true. And we don't really talk about the middle.

Starting point is 00:07:23 It's either all injury, disease, and death, or, you know, all success, wealth, and happiness. And how did we get there? Why these two sides that are so, so far apart? And of course, what scientists are learning is risk-taking really is something in the middle. When we're talking about risk, as simple as it sounds, it really is making a decision of which you're uncertain of the outcome. And so it can be something as little as whether or not you should have that third cup of coffee in the morning, knowing it might give you the jitters later, or whether it is about investing all of your savings into a new startup or moving cross-country for a new job.

Starting point is 00:08:02 We talk about risk mostly about these big things. And the irony is we don't see all those little decisions, all those little risks that went into, you know, those outcomes that we usually end up talking about. Yeah, nobody ever says, you know, he's so successful because he's a really mediocre risk taker. Well, and the thing is, you know, there's a judgment value in there, right? So it's this idea that you have to gamble. And I think that's the other thing when we talk

Starting point is 00:08:31 about language. You know, some people, when they talk about risk, they're talking about, you know, gambling. They're talking about impulsive behavior. They're talking about, you know, things that often do lead to negative outcomes. But really, that smart risk-taking, that calculated risk-taking, he's maybe not a mediocre risk-taker, but he's done his homework. He's done enough to know the knowns and make a good calculation on some of the unknowns. And he's learned enough from his mistakes so that he can go forward and succeed. And I think that that's really important. And there may be a fair amount of, you know, mediocrity in some of those decisions that got him there. I want to go back to something you said at the beginning that when

Starting point is 00:09:14 you hit 40, it disappeared. Where'd it go? Good question. You know, I'd spent all this time in my 20s and 30s traveling all over the place, literally swimming with sharks, rock climbing. I mean, I was a bit of an adrenaline junkie. And then I sort of hit my 40s and found myself, you know, not unless there was a SVU law and order marathon on, I wasn't doing much of anything at all. And I really wondered about that switch. And of course, there is a lot of science that talks about now, as we get older, it kind of gets harder to put yourself out there. There's good reason for that. Certainly risk-taking as a behavior is something that is linked to mate-seeking.

Starting point is 00:09:57 It's something that's linked to success and choice. By the time we get to our 40s and 50s, you know, we gain enough experience. You know, the old joke is you're old enough to know better. Well, you get to the point where you're old enough where it's not that you know better or not, you just know too much and it kind of can make you stand still. So a lot of the research really looks at as we get older for because we've gained all this great experience, we know about all the potential bad outcomes. And a lot of times that can make us really risk averse. And it's too bad because in the process, we can miss out on some great opportunities. I would think too, though, that if you're a risk taker and have been most

Starting point is 00:10:36 of your life and been successful, and the risks have turned out that it wouldn't go away, that it's worked for you up till now, why not keep going? You'd think so. And that would be a really great experiment to do. And yet, there is something about getting older where all of a sudden you're like, you get more protective of what you have. It's interesting in talking to some old rock climbers. These were all very, very good rock climbers who, you know, were very skilled, very practiced. Even they sort of got more risk averse. They sort of, as they were assessing situations, tended to rate them as more dangerous or more likely to result in a fall than younger rock climbers were. So even though they had the skills to do it, even though they

Starting point is 00:11:25 had the know-how, all that experience that their brain had taken in over time was telling them, okay, here's the 1600 ways this could go wrong. And I think at a certain point, when your brain starts going down that path, you know, it's almost a sense of anxiety. There has to be a really good reason to start that climb. And the reverse is true. I mean, at least starting in the teenage years, you look at teenage behavior, often called risky teenage behavior. Teenagers seem very willing to take risks and to the point of being foolish about it. Well, there's a biological imperative there. I mean, one, the brain, if we distill down what the brain does into simplest form, it's a prediction machine. It is there to try to figure out what the world is going to throw at you next. In order to be a good prediction machine, it has to through this last leg of brain development. They're, you know, cementing these really important connections that are going to help them be successful adults.

Starting point is 00:12:36 And that means they kind of have to get out there and get into the thick of it so they do know what the consequences are. I think often it's not so much that teens, you know, think that they're invincible. It's that they really have no idea what the outcomes might be. They don't have enough experience and it's not enough to say, oh, you know, this could hurt you or this could ruin you or what have you. They have to really sort of experience a little bit of that for themselves to understand what the stakes are. Yeah, but there are plenty of things that kids do and they know full well if you go 100 miles an hour in a drag race, there's a good chance you'll wind up crashing your car and be dead. And if you do drugs, I mean, they've been... But there's a difference between intellectually knowing and having experienced some of that stuff

Starting point is 00:13:19 firsthand. And when you're in the moment, and there's actually quite a bit of research that now shows when you're talking about driving 100 miles an hour there is something about having your peers around you in the teenage years which really downplays risk you're much more interested in pressing your friends and trying these things than you are in thinking about the outcomes it almost you know turns off the frontal lobes of the brain, the area of the brain that sort of acts as the executive control, the judgment center, the brakes, if you will, of bad or impulsive behavior. So part of that is being in a group and going with a crew. But another part of that really is, you know, there is a huge difference,

Starting point is 00:14:04 you know, between intellectually understanding something. They get these messages all the time in school from movies, from after school specials, but there's something about gaining some of that experience firsthand or having a peer who does or that really makes them think about it a little bit differently. And I think we probably know plenty of adults, even older teens, that maybe they're not drag racing, but they'll look down, you know, when they're driving on the freeway every now and again and go, oh, wait, you know, I'm up near 100. I really need to slow down.

Starting point is 00:14:36 I'm speaking with Kate Sukal. She is a journalist and author of the book, The Art of Risk, The New Science of Courage, Caution, and Chance. This is an ad for BetterHelp. Welcome to the world. book, The Art of Risk, The New Science of Courage, Caution, and Chance. nice life. Unfortunately, life doesn't come with an owner's manual. That's why there's BetterHelp online therapy. Connect with a credentialed therapist by phone, video, or online chat. Visit betterhelp.com to learn more. That's betterhelp.com. This winter, take a trip to Tampa on Porter Airlines. Enjoy the warm Tampa Bay temperatures and warm Porter hospitality on your way there. All Porter fares include beer, wine, and snacks, and free fast-streaming Wi-Fi on planes with no middle seats. And your Tampa Bay vacation includes good times, relaxation, and great Gulf Coast weather.

Starting point is 00:15:40 Visit FlyPorter.com and actually enjoy economy. So, Kate, my guess would be that in terms of gender, that men are generally bigger risk takers than women. That has been the story for a very long time, and there was plenty of research to support it. And the idea was there was an evolutionary biology, you know, kind of story that men, they need to be riskier so they can go out and find food and avoid predators and, you know, take things back to their family, attract mates. But newer research is actually showing not as big of a difference as we once believed between males and females. And what researchers are thinking now is it has to do with opportunity. So many of the experiments that have been done on risk-taking

Starting point is 00:16:31 behavior, both in the neuroscience and psychological realms, they look at things like finances. They look at things like extreme sports. They look at things, you know, that women just didn't have great numbers in for a very long time. And as we see, you know, more and more sponsored female athletes by companies like Patagonia and Clif Bar, and as we see more women in the boardroom and, you know, in the doctor operating room or where have you, what we're seeing is men and women, there's not that much difference in the amount of risk that they take. So that whole idea that boys will be boys and women are better angels, a lot of it really depends on the context. And new research is showing that it's not as cut and dried as we once thought. So when you look at what you would maybe call successful risk takers, what do they have in

Starting point is 00:17:27 common? Well, the first thing is you will talk to them whether they are a, you know, world-renowned base jumper or a professional poker player or a famed neurosurgeon. They will all sit there and tell you, I'm not really a risk taker. And you can kind of argue with them about that. But they all sort of, they don't think of themselves as risk takers. And I think that's because they are so well versed in what they do. They have a lot of experience. They take the time to really know that one area. And it's usually the area that, you know, they work in, whether it is base jumping or neurosurgery, they spend a lot of time and have a lot of experience. They're always learning and not only learning from their successes, but also learning a lot from their mistakes. And they're

Starting point is 00:18:18 making sure to really pay attention to things that might trip them up in the future. And that is something that we saw again and again, no matter what their domain was. It was a lot of preparation, a lot of homework, and a lot of an ability to take a step back and say, okay, this may be a mistake, but if it is a mistake, this is how I'm going to learn from it to move forward. And what is it that people who are lousy risk takers have in common? I imagine that's harder to define, but what are they? It is not, actually. It's impulsivity. A lousy risk taker is somebody who is flying by the seat of their pants.

Starting point is 00:18:59 They're not thinking things through. They're acting in the moment. And that tends to be the kind of risk that's going to land you in jail or, and, you know, get you a disease or a serious injury. And it really is a huge difference. We often use, you know, risk taking and impulsivity interchangeably, but they're clearly very, very different from a cognitive standpoint. Flying by the seat of your pants, it may work for you every once in a while, but over the long term, it's dangerous. But successful, calculated risk-taking really is about doing the upfront work, you know, practicing, doing your homework, and again, failing forward. But don't you think that there just are people by their nature that are more willing to take risks,

Starting point is 00:19:49 and there are other people who are much more cautious and not willing to take risks, and it's just part of who they are, and nothing more than that? There is some of that, and certainly there's been a lot of work looking at the genetics of risk-taking behavior. A lot of people like to talk about a gene. They call it the warrior gene. And it's not that we can't learn to become better risk takers, become more comfortable with novelty. It's funny that one of the greatest indicators of whether or not when a person will take a risk is how familiar they are with it. And you can think of a really silly example, which is the subway versus driving in a car. If you grew up in New York City, you know, from the time that you're a little kid, you're probably riding the subway and not thinking anything of it.

Starting point is 00:20:53 And I grew up in that area. I took the subway by myself when I was 10 or 11. And now I live in Texas. And I remember telling somebody here that I did that. They were horrified. They had never been on a subway or even in a big city like that. And they thought that I basically was walking onto a train as a child with a big sign on it that says mug me. They just thought that that was the riskiest thing ever.

Starting point is 00:21:16 Whereas your average person from Manhattan wouldn't think twice. But then you take that same hardcore Manhattanite, the person who's, you know, been in the city forever and has seen it all, put them in a rental car in, you know, rural Georgia and tell them, give them directions, like turn left at the blue chicken, and they're going to start to freak out. Wait, where do I go? How do I do this? So much of what we're comfortable with really comes down to familiarity. You know, what's interesting to me is that a lot of times we'll say something is risky and feel that something is risky when it really isn't. And probably the stereotypical risky thing to do would be to, you know, parachute jump,

Starting point is 00:21:58 jump out of an airplane with a parachute. That feels real risky, but statistically it's not risky. Most people who jump out of an airplane live through it just fine. The parachute opens and they land. It's scary, but it's not risky. Well, and that's the thing. Heightened emotions can really change the way that we assess risky situations. Stress can as well. And those are important things to realize. It ties into what I said before about familiarity. I mean, you are so much more likely to die on your morning commute to work. Yet all of us, you know, get or many of us, you know, hop in our cars every morning. And some people drive up to an hour and a half, two hours to get to work back and forth, despite the fact that there are so

Starting point is 00:22:43 many automobile accidents. And yet, you hear people all the time talking about how they're so afraid to fly, and our emotions really change the way that we do the calculations. They heighten factors that probably shouldn't be heightened, and they may often make us ignore things that absolutely shouldn't be ignored. So if I wanted to be a better risk taker, a smarter risk taker, what do I need to do? What are the things I need to put together here? I think the first thing is you need to understand that there's risk involved with every decision you make each and every day.

Starting point is 00:23:19 We need to stop inflating risk into something that it's not, which is all of this, you know, extreme sports, adrenaline junkie, you know, big business kind of talk that we usually use with it. But I think the second thing is, you know, once you get past that really kind of polarizing language is you sit down and you think things through. You try to get as much experience before, you know, you take a deep dive into a particular hobby or business project. You learn what you can. You take baby steps. You know, small steps can be, instead of a big jump, they'll still get to the same outcome, but probably with less chance of a broken leg,

Starting point is 00:24:06 right? I think it's really about doing the work, doing the preparation, gaining the experience, and taking the time not to make decisions in the heat of the moment or when you're overly emotional. And those are really the big keys to being a more successful and a more calculated risk taker. Which is, of course, the point, not to take a lot of risks necessarily, but to take the right risks and do it well. My guest has been Kate Sukal. Her book is The Art of Risk, The New Science of Courage, Caution, and Chance. And there's a link to her book in the show notes. Thank you for being here, Kate.

Starting point is 00:24:44 Oh, no, thank you. I really appreciate it. Metrolinks and Crosslinks are reminding everyone to be careful as Eglinton Crosstown LRT train testing is in progress. Please be alert as trains can pass at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals, be careful along our tracks, and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where

Starting point is 00:25:32 great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. If I were to say, think of someone who is too nice,

Starting point is 00:26:22 you probably get a picture in your head of someone who is overly polite, apologizes way too much, is always worried that they're going to offend someone, and maybe you're one of those people, or maybe you do some of those things. While being nice is fine, being too nice can cause some real problems. And being too nice is something a lot of people do. Dr. Aziz Gazapura was one of those too nice people, and he made the commitment to change. He's now a leading expert on this topic, and he coaches people on how not to be so nice. And he's author of a book called Not Nice.

Starting point is 00:27:00 Stop people-pleasing, staying silent, and feeling guilty, and start speaking up, saying no, asking boldly, and unapologetically being yourself. Hi, Aziz. Welcome. Hi, Mike. Thanks for having me. So let's define too nice, because nice is good, but too nice is maybe not so good. So where's the line? That is a really interesting question question because I think most of us learned growing up that nice is good and more nice is better. But as you are pointing out, a lot of us realize at some point in our lives that there is such a thing as too nice. And I think it's not so much you can't look at a specific behavior and say, oh, that's too nice.

Starting point is 00:27:40 Because, hey, in a certain situation, a friend needs something, your spouse needs something, your kids need something. You step up and you give a ton. So we can't look at the behavior and say, oh, that's too nice. What we got to look at is the inner state of the person, their emotional state and what they're doing and why they're doing it. And so if you are doing something because you want to please the other person, because you can't handle please the other person because you're, uh, you can't handle it. If they're upset with you because you need them to, to be okay, then that's probably going to be too nice. Yeah. And I think of things like, you know, if, if somebody steps on your foot by

Starting point is 00:28:18 accident and then you apologize that maybe that's being too nice. Absolutely. And there's a lot of that. You need bump shoulders. Um, two people there's a lot of that. You bump shoulders, two people start speaking up at the same time. You say, oh, I'm sorry. Sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead. And a lot of people that are overly nice have a habitual over apology approach to life. Where does that come from? I mean, well, it starts with a nice training, as I call it. Usually a childhood, a primary parent, grandparent is usually the primary, uh, whoever's our person is bringing us up. And we get trained very early on to be nice. And that's what parents will say to their kids, be nice. And their parents are doing the best they can. They're trying to like contain the craziness. I get it. I have two kids myself,

Starting point is 00:29:01 but what, what most of, uh, parents unconsciously are doing is saying, I want you to please me because you're easier to get along with. You're not a ruffian. You're not crazy. You're just calm and do what I want and be obedient. And and on some level, as parents, we want that because it's easier. And the downside though is then they get older and our kids have problems with being assertive, being really susceptible to peer pressure, not knowing who they are, not knowing what they want. And so the short answer is it comes from our upbringing. Do you think that people who are too nice know it? Yes. Okay. That's a great question. There's like glimmers of awareness. Am I too nice? No, no. Just keep doing what I'm doing. We see that it's not working. Like something breaks down. We get burnt out. We get, we, we, if we're honest with ourselves, we're resentful inside. Something is not working. But the idea of being not nice or less nice is totally unacceptable. So we just double down, dig in and try to be nicer. And so there's that glimmer of awareness. And then we put it aside until we reach a breaking point. And we say, you know what, this isn't working. And sometimes that breaking point comes from a breakup or we need to break up and we've been in a relationship for years too long or a

Starting point is 00:30:23 health crisis because that stuff can take a toll on our health to be suppressing and being overly nice for many years. Something happens or we just wake up one day and we're fed up and we say, okay, now I get it. I'm being too nice. So there is a moment where people don't just get into the glimmers. They actually really get it. And then, then they're ready. Then they just got to learn and change the way that they approach life. Well, I think there is this perception, you know, people will sometimes say, well, I'd rather be nice than be a jerk. As if those are the only two options that it's either, or you're either too nice, or if you're not too nice, you're a jerk, but it's not either, or it's a sliding scale. Absolutely right. And I think that's just, it's too simplistic. And often

Starting point is 00:31:05 the idea of like, well, if I'm not nice that I'm a jerk, right? That's kind of trying to push us back into being nice. And people will often do this with themselves. They'll push themselves back into being too nice because to be other is scary. They think they're going to lose love, lose connection, but you're absolutely right. Think of it like a dial. And you want to turn the dial from all the way down on the nice side to just the middle. And that involves saying, hey, you know what? Other people and their needs and their desires matter. But so do mine.

Starting point is 00:31:38 And I think the habitual nice person devalues their own needs, dismisses their own wants, and is very self-sacrificing. And so we want to just turn it up into the healthy range of give and take and of being able to say, well, what do I need here? And then being able to ask for what we need, say no to people when we need to say no to them. And that puts us in a healthy medium range. Does all of this, do you think all of this have its core basis in, I care too much about what other people are going to think or say or do? Yes. And I would tweak it slightly. Um, because then we think the answer is to not care at all, right? I care too much. Well, I shouldn't care. I think it's that when we say we care too much, it's like we can't tolerate unpleasant feelings in others.

Starting point is 00:32:27 It makes my skin crawl. I'm going to freak out if you're upset with me or disappointed or want something that I can't give you or don't want to give you. So yes, the short answer is we care too much. And really, like, we're just too, we just can't tolerate it. And so our goal is to increase our capacity to handle the discomfort of someone being upset with us or wanting something from us. Has anyone ever surveyed the population and figured out what percentage of the population

Starting point is 00:32:58 either self-report as being too nice or meet some criteria as being too nice? You know, I haven't seen anything like that. I, that's a great question. I do not know. What's your sense though? What's your sense of the population is, is this a 5% problem or a 50% problem? It's big, it's big. And I would say, I mean, you're looking at the realm of probably 50% because it's a dominant way of being. And most of those people aren't going to identify. The issue is they're not going to identify as too nice. They're not going to say, yeah, I'm too nice. of what they're doing is coming from caring too much what others think, pleasing others, shaping their life in a way so that no one could judge them. And that means holding back,

Starting point is 00:33:52 not speaking up, not sharing what they're interested in, not pursuing their passion or what they want to create in their life. And yeah, maybe even more than 50% as I'm saying this. If I'm one of those people, if I'm too nice, how do you, how do you stop? You're doomed. Doomed. How do you stop being too nice? I mean, because again, the feeling is, well, if I'm not too nice, I'm going to be a jerk and I can't be a jerk. So it's, it's, it's that ease either or thing. So how do you back it off a little? I love that question. And the opposite of nice is not a jerk. The opposite of nice is bold and authentic because niceness is really this like a persona, this shell of like, Hey, I'm not even here. Whatever you want, I'm here for you. And that's not, that's false. So

Starting point is 00:34:38 it's really to be our bold, authentic self. And that helps people dispel the idea that they have to go somehow be a jerk or something. It's like, first you have to kind of wake up from just that glimmer of like, Hey, wait a minute, being this way in the world is not working. It's not working for me. It's not working for my relationships. I want to be less nice. So that's the first step kind of deciding that the next step is to do the uncomfortable stuff. And it often is uncomfortable. That means having boundaries saying no, when someone's like, Hey, can you do this for me. And it often is uncomfortable. That means having boundaries, saying no. When someone's like, hey, can you do this for me? And maybe you used to always do it for them, but then you resented them. Well, you say, no, I can't. I'm not available then.

Starting point is 00:35:15 You ask for what you want. You tell someone, hey, you have a difficult conversation. Like, I asked you to do this and you didn't. And now I'm upset with you or whatever it is. So you go do those uncomfortable things. That's the second step. And then the third step is you work through the inner discomfort because it stirs up. It can stir up guilt or anxiety like, oh, was I was I too mean there? Was I too harsh? Am I a bad person?

Starting point is 00:35:41 And we work through that. We calm down. We see like, hey, you know what? This is how I want to be in the world. It's okay for me to have needs or be assertive. And then we just repeat that process. And it's like a reconditioning. We have to do it again and again. It's not a one-time thing. I remember hearing someone talk about this once and it rang true for me that, you know, when we say no to people, we think we've devastated them. But, you know, we've let them down. We've so disappointed them.

Starting point is 00:36:12 When actually they just cross you off the list and go to the next person to see if they'll do it because you can't. But we, in our own mind, tend to think our no is much more devastating than it is. Absolutely. And that's true with a lot of this stuff where we think with the nice patterns, we think, oh, I'll crush them if I say no, or that would destroy them if I pointed out something that they did that wasn't, you know, up to my standards or whatever. The truth is that, yeah, people aren't that fragile. They don't collapse in that way. And the only way to really see that is to test it and to prove to ourselves again and again. And I can't tell you how many times I had it all built up in my head, how terrible it was going to be if I said this or

Starting point is 00:36:55 did that. And then I go do it and the person doesn't even bat an eye. It's not like they break down and we have to rebuild them back up. They're just like okay and then we move on i'm like wow that's what i've been avoiding for a decade right right and it was no big deal that the the world still turns when you say no and that's okay yeah and and the big that what makes it this big deal is yeah rarely the other person's reaction it's the all that dust and that sediment that gets kicked up in our head afterwards and all those stories. Oh my gosh, that was so terrible. And you know, that's where it comes back to our childhood training, our upbringing, because we're, we're reliving all this stuff from when we were growing up. And so it's not the actual present

Starting point is 00:37:40 day that we're feeling all this stuff about that That person's fine. They're an adult. They're just, as you said, they crossed you off the list, move on to the next one. It's all of our old past stuff. And so that's where we need to do that inner work and have ways to calm ourselves and see more truthfully that it's okay for us to ask for what we want. And deep down, the biggest fear we have about all of this, Mike, is that we're going to lose connection. We're going to, I'm going to, that person's going to hate me. You know, I'm going to lose connection. That person's going to hate me. I'm going to lose my relationship. I'm going to get dumped. My friends are going to leave me. My boss is going to fire me. And what we need to test out and prove to ourselves is that my

Starting point is 00:38:14 attachments are more secure than that. They're different now than when I was a kid. And I can be me. It's safe to be authentically me in the world. There does seem to be some cultural element to this. I think of many Asian people as being too nice compared to more typical American behavior that the Asian cultures tend to foster that. Sure. It gets really interesting. Yes. In Malcolm Gladwell's book, I believe it was Outliers, he talks about different cultures have a scale of how much deference they show to authority. And it was Korea and other – I think it was Korea. South Korea had the highest ratio of like we show – and they show the most deference. And it was so extreme that they had an issue because there was a plane crash and the pilot was doing something wrong. And the co-pilot and the other person on the plane, the cockpit, did not speak up in a direct manner to that person.

Starting point is 00:39:13 And they all crashed. And everyone on the plane died. And it was like it was so extreme. And so they had this, you know, crack team to get in there and try to figure out how to train these Korean pilots and co-pilots to be able to communicate with the person in authority. So that could be textbook too nice, right? I mean, to a detrimental degree. What's the advice, if you have some, of somebody who, you know, really has trouble saying no, what's a good way to say no and understanding that it may cause you to be uncomfortable, but at least maybe make it a little easier.

Starting point is 00:39:45 I love that question. Saying no is, you got to think of it like a, I don't know, a golf swing or a tennis serve. You get better at it the more you do it. And so you can get some basic tips, which I'll give you here. But then, you know, if you try to get your golf swing perfect on the first time, it's going to be a little messy. It's not going to be great, but you do it enough and eventually it looks more smooth. So same thing with saying no, you do it more often, you'll get smoother. But a simple tip is first and foremost, before you open your mouth in your mind, remember and reinforce in yourself, I have permission to say no. It's healthy to say no. Like all that stuff you're talking about, feeling like we're going to devastate people.

Starting point is 00:40:22 We got to do a little inner work ahead of time because Because if I think I'm going to crush you and you're going to hate me, it's going to be pretty hard to say no. So we got to get some of our beliefs more accurate and say, you know what? People are adults. They can take care of themselves. I have a right to say no. And that might be as simple as putting that on the background of your phone or on a post-it note. I have a right to say no. And that inner step is actually extremely important. So you can, so the words can actually come out of your mouth. Then when you're actually communicating the no, say no, be short. You don't need to like justify your no with a long story, a very apologetic story. In fact, you don't even really want to apologize. Now, if you want to convey some like,

Starting point is 00:41:09 oh, bummer, you can say something like that, or you can say, oh, unfortunately. So for example, you might say, someone's like, oh, come to this thing on Saturday. No, I'm not gonna make it on Saturday. Unfortunately, I'm doing something else. But that sounds like a lot of fun. And hope you guys have a good time. One of the reasons I think people don't speak up and ask for what they want and say what they're really thinking is it. Yeah, it may be because they don't want to devastate the other person, but it's also they just don't want to cause trouble. They don't want to make waves. They don't want to start an argument. So they so they shut up. Yes, I have a chapter in the book called Please Don't Be Mad at me and it's uh, it's that conflict avoidance That's that's part of the niceness syndrome over to nice syndrome

Starting point is 00:41:50 It's it's and sometimes people hear conflict and they think like, you know throwing chairs and yelling. I just mean disagreement tension friction and what we need to learn is that healthy human relations of any sort, professional, business, romantic, friendship, have friction in them. If your long-going relationship with someone is frictionless, one of those two people is withholding a lot, is hiding a lot. Because two humans cannot want the same thing always to the same degree at the same times. I mean, it just doesn't work that way. And so people are going to get disappointed. There's going to be a little friction and we want to shift from that's a bad

Starting point is 00:42:33 thing that I better avoid to, oh, this is a good thing. And look, I've been doing this for years. It's never comfortable. It's not fun, but it's like, oh, I've learned to be like, oh, I'm feeling upset right now. Okay. Let me see what's going on. Hmm. All right. That's the person. Yeah. We had that interaction. Yep. This is what I, okay. All right. I need to have this conversation and going into it, there's a little bit of dread, like, oh boy, but I know it's like medicine. This is going to clear the air. This is going to make us closer. This is going to help us, you know, confront the issue and solve the problem. And it does seem a lot of the time that what we dread never happens. It's never as bad as we think it's going to be, or well, almost never. Yes. And the key thing is that no matter how it is bad or good or easy or

Starting point is 00:43:19 hard, we can handle it. And that is like the root of confidence is knowing I can handle whatever happens. And I think not only that, but when people do stand up for themselves and show that confidence that you're talking about, I think that makes them more attractive to other people. You want to be with someone who's comfortable being them. My guest has been Dr. Aziz Ghazapura, and his book is called Not Nice, Stop People-Pleasing, Staying Silent, and Feeling Guilty, and there is a link to his book in the show notes. Thanks, Aziz.

Starting point is 00:43:55 Yeah, absolutely. That was fun. Thanks so much, Mike. Well, nothing will ruin your day like having your car break down. And yet most of the time, it's preventable. According to Walt Brinker, author of Roadside Survival, the majority of times that cars break down, it's tire-related. It's usually a flat or a blowout.

Starting point is 00:44:19 And that is usually because the tires are underinflated. Take care of your tires, and they'll take care of you. Another reason people break down is they run out of gas. And it's also preventable. Still, it happens. And often, even if you go get a gallon of gas to put in your empty tank, it still won't start. Why? Because when you're pulled over to the shoulder, your car usually isn't level. It's probably leaning to the right. Walt says,

Starting point is 00:44:52 The solution is to rock the car while someone turns the key to try to start it. And still another reason cars break down is the car just stops working. And Walt says, Very often it's just a case of the clamp on the battery terminal becoming loose. Check that first and it may be all you need to do to fix it. And that is something you should know. Most of the people who listen to this podcast subscribe. And if you're not a subscriber, you should know that when you subscribe, A, it's free, doesn't cost anything to subscribe, and B, then you get sent notifications to your, wherever you listen, your phone or your tablet or wherever you listen, that remind you that there's a new episode to listen. So subscribing makes a lot of sense, and it's easy to do.

Starting point is 00:45:41 Pretty much every platform, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, TuneIn, Stitcher, they all have subscription buttons. I'm Micah Brothers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community.

Starting point is 00:46:04 Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent VB Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth.

Starting point is 00:46:36 Chinook, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth that ours is not a loving God and we are not its favored children. The heresies of Randolph Bantwine, wherever podcasts are available.

Something You Should Know - How to Decide Which Risks Are Worth Taking & How to Stop Being too Nice

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