Something You Should Know - How to Design YOUR Perfect Life & Why Humans Make So Many Irrational Decisions

Episode Date: February 22, 2018

Back in Grandma’s day, you had to spend an afternoon defrosting the freezer once in a while. Today we have frost-free freezers but unfortunately they can do damage to the frozen food in there. I’ll explain what to do about it. One of the reasons life is so stressful is because we try to do things that we are just not wired to do. Gretchen Rubin, host of the “Happier with Gretchen Rubin” podcast and author of the audiobook The Four Tendencies has a solution. She explains how to figure out your own personality profile and then incorporate ways to live your life that are in line with your personality. When you do, life gets easier. By the way, to take the personality test Gretchen talks about, go to her website www.GretchenRubin.com Then, a lot more kids today have allergies and eczema compared to previous generations. And it may have to do with your dishwasher. You’ll want to hear this. We humans are very good at making irrational decisions. It seems we can’t help ourselves. We like to think we are rational beings but so often what we do and how we think is driven by something else. Ron Brafman, co-author of the book Sway: The Irresistible Pull of Irrational Behavior explains why we do irrational things and offers some advice to help you be more rational when everyone else isn’t.  To see the before and after images of my living room courtesy of Modsy.com, go to: http://bit.ly/2EKrpmG Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As a listener to Something You Should Know, I can only assume that you are someone who likes to learn about new and interesting things and bring more knowledge to work for you in your everyday life. I mean, that's kind of what Something You Should Know was all about. And so I want to invite you to listen to another podcast called TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks. Well, you see, TED Talks Daily is a podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday in less than 15 minutes. Join host Elise Hu.

She goes beyond the headlines so you can hear about the big ideas shaping our future. Learn about things like sustainable fashion, embracing your entrepreneurial spirit, the future of robotics, and so much more. Like I said, if you like this podcast, Something You Should Know, I'm pretty sure you're going to like TED Talks Daily. And you get TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts. Today on Something You Should Know, your kitchen freezer has a big flaw that can ruin your food. I'll explain. Then, understanding that you experience the world differently than everyone else can make your life so much easier. A lot of times when people get frustrated or they think,

oh, there's something wrong with me, why don't I have any self-control or willpower, what they're doing is trying to do something in a way that's not right for them. We all have to figure out what works for us. Plus, if your kids have allergies, it may be your dishwasher's fault. And human beings make a lot of irrational decisions, and it gets us in trouble. People come in and they say, I don't know why my relationship don't end up well. Instead of saying, you know what, I want somebody who's honest and kind, we look at somebody and we say, wow, she has a great body, I'm

going to go out with her, but that might not be the best match for who I'm really looking for. All this today on Something You Should Know. There's a good chance that you're in a bit of a rut when it comes to the way your rooms look and the way your furniture's laid out. Because, well, the couch goes there because the couch has always gone there. And if that sounds a little like you,

I'd like you to do what my wife and I did and try Modsy. Modsy is a home design solution that uses 3D visualization to help you redesign the rooms in your home and buy with confidence. We chose our living room, and the before and after images are on the Something You Should Know website. What happens is you take their style quiz and provide some information, and then you upload some photos.

They then create this amazing 3D model of your rooms to scale. I swear, what you see looks like photos, but they're not. It's your room, but with all new furnishings in it. And then you use their style editor to try other furnishings and see how they would look in your room. Check out the before and after images of my living room on the Something You Should Know website. The link is in the show notes.

Then start your project today. Take 20% off any design package. Visit modsy.com, that's M-O-D-S-Y, modsy.com, and enter the promo code SOMETHING at checkout. You'll get 20% off any design package by going to modsy.com, M-O-D-S-Y, modsy.com, and enter the promo code SOMETHING at checkout. Something You Should Know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers.

Hi, welcome. It is episode 150 of the Something You Should Know podcast. And it's because of people like you who listen and tell their friends that this podcast has become so successful and continues to grow. I think it's like with any podcast, the way it grows and becomes successful is word of mouth. And without that, it's really hard to make a podcast successful. And so for that, I'm very grateful and thank you. First up today, if you ask anybody over 50 maybe, they can tell you stories of the day when mom or grandma used to defrost the freezer. And it was a real ordeal. You had to take all the food out of the freezer and then chip away all the ice because that's just what happened to a freezer.

And then along came the frost-free freezer, which we all have now. But here's the problem. Your freezer regularly goes through a frost-free cycle. That means the temperature actually warms up in there. It gets as high as 45 degrees. During that time, the frost melts and evaporates and prevents that buildup of ice on the walls of the freezer that mom and grandma had to deal with back in the day. The problem is that when the frost melts, your food starts to melt too, and then it refreezes, and that

causes problems. This is a big cause of freezer burn and why you get those ice crystals on your ice cream. One food science professor calls frost-free freezers ice cream destruction machines. What happens is, as the temperature goes up and the food starts to thaw, the water from the food escapes into the air. As the temperature drops again, the water wants to re-enter the food, but it cannot because the food is still mostly frozen. So the water sits on top of the food and then freezes into ice crystals. This happens over and over and over again and eventually can ruin food in your freezer.

One way to minimize the damage is to keep as little airspace as possible between the food and the package it's in. This will help prevent the water from escaping out of the food because it will have no place to go. And that is something you should know. Sometimes we do things that unintentionally make our lives unnecessarily difficult. I'll give you the perfect example. Let's say that you decide you're going to get fit. And so what you're going to do is get up early every morning and go to the gym.

Great. Good for you. The problem is you're not a morning person. So on the third day, you pretty much just say, screw it, I'm staying in bed, I'm not getting up. But maybe if you scheduled time in the afternoon or evening to go to the gym, it would be much easier to accomplish because getting up early is not who you are. Gretchen Rubin is a best-selling writer, and she's the host of a podcast called Happier with Gretchen Rubin,

and she's just put out an audiobook called The Four Tendencies. Gretchen says that there are basically four personality profiles. There are four ways that people live their lives, basically. And when you figure out which one you are, you can then live your life with much less stress. In fact, life gets a lot easier. Hi, Gretchen. Welcome to Something You Should Know. Hello. It's great to be talking to you. So it seems like what you're saying is that if you want to be happy and if you want to stop

struggling, stop doing things that aren't you, that don't fit with who you are. Is that a good summation? Absolutely. You put your finger right on what I think is the essential point, which is that a lot of times when people get frustrated or they're defeated or they think, oh, there's something wrong with me. Why can't I use tools that other people use easily? Or why don't I have any self-control or willpower? Really, what they're doing is trying to do something in a way that's not right for them. You know, there is no magic one-size-fits-all solution. We all have to figure out, you know, what kind of person are we? What works for us?

When do we succeed? When do we fail? How can we change circumstances to help us get where we're going instead of trying to work on ourselves, you know, instead of trying to beat yourself up because you don't have enough willpower, figure out a way so that you don't need any willpower. You can just, you've set things up to help you succeed. But if you want to do something like lose weight or, you know, exercise more or stop smoking, those things seem to scream willpower. Well, you know, they really, I think it's, and I wrote a book called Better Than Before that's all about habit formation, and the reason why it's helpful to, and you gave three excellent examples of kind of major habits that a lot of people want to work on.

When you think about setting those things up in a way that makes it easy to form habits, then the beauty of habits is you don't have to use willpower. You don't have to use self-control. You don't have to make decisions. Something just happens automatically. So say eating more healthfully or losing weight. One thing I do is I don't eat sugar. I never eat sugar.

And so I'm never tempted by sugar. I don't think about sugar. I don't have to use any willpower. I don't have to make decisions. It's like, oh, I'm walking into a store and they have a free bowl of candy. Do I eat it? No, because I don't eat sugar. I don't think about sugar. I don't have to use any willpower. I don't have to make decisions. It's like, oh, I'm walking into a store and they have a free bowl of candy. Do I eat it? No, because I don't eat sugar. Oh, I'm at a dinner party and they're serving dessert. Do I have dessert? No, because I don't eat sugar. I'm at a restaurant and they offer me a free dessert. Do I eat it? No, because I don't eat sugar. That's just my habit. I don't have to think about it. I don't

have to use the willpower. And so the more that we can use our knowledge of ourselves and knowing ourselves, figure out a way to shape our habits, then we can achieve those aims in a way that's a lot less difficult. So you think that we generally fall into one or more of these four tendencies. So why don't you explain what they are? Oh, yes. So the four tendencies is a personality framework that I devised or I glimpsed in the world that has to do with how you respond to expectations. And according to my framework, you're either an upholder, a questioner, an obliger, or a rebel, depending on how you respond to outer expectations and inner expectations. So we all face outer expectations, like a work deadline or request from a friend.

And we all face inner expectations. My own desire to keep a New Year's resolution. My own desire to get back into playing guitar. So upholders readily meet outer and inner expectations. They meet the work deadline. They keep the New Year's resolution without much fuss. They want to know what others expect from them, but what they expect for themselves is just as important.

Then there are questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if they think it makes sense. So they make everything an inner expectation. If it meets their standard, they'll be like, yeah, I'll do it. No problem. If it fails their standard, they will resist. And they tend to dislike anything that's arbitrary or inefficient

or irrational. They always want to know why they should do something. Then there are obligers. And obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. And I got my first glimpse into this personality type when a friend of mine said, I don't understand it. When I was in high school, I was on the track team and I never missed track practice. So why can't I go running now? Well, she's an obliger. When she had a team and a coach expecting her to show up, she had no trouble going. But when she was just trying to go on her own, it was a challenge. And then finally, rebels. Rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner alike. They want

to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time. They can do anything they want to do. But if you ask or tell them to do something, they're very likely to resist. And typically, they don't even like to tell themselves what to do. So most people can tell what they are just from that quick overview. There is a quiz on my site, GretchenRubin.com, and more than 1.3 million people now have taken that quiz. But like I say, a lot of times people don't even need to take the official quiz because they can tell what they are just from... I hear myself in all of those, or most of them, at least a little bit. Is that normal? Well, you're probably a questioner then, because questioners feel like,

well, sometimes I act like an upholder and sometimes I act like a rebel. And it's like, yeah, because you're probably doing what seems like it makes the most sense in the situation. That's questioner because a questioner is like, well, why would I do what you tell me? Well, if I trust what you tell me, of course I'll do what you tell me because I trust your judgment. But if I don't trust your judgment, then I'm going to rebel against it. I'm like, well, that's questioner. Yeah. So thinking that you belong to all of them is definitely a sign of questioner. And look what I do for a living. Yep, there you go.

So I would imagine that if you identify which of those you are, it's kind of like liberating because now you go, well, oh, now I see why that didn't work, and that didn't work, and that didn't work. Well, so a great example, and you're exactly right, is with obligers. So the fact is for obligers, if they want to meet an inner expectation, they need to have outer accountability. That is just, in my observation, the absolutely crucial and necessary thing. And fortunately for obligers, that's very easy to do.

But often obligers don't understand this pattern. And then once they understand the kind of the definition of obliger and how it plays out, like all their whole history makes sense to them. And they're like, well, now I understand. Like my friend, when I was on the track team, I could run. When I took that college, when I took that exercise class in college where the teacher took, when the instructor took, you know, attendance every time, then I showed up. When I had that daily walk that I did with my neighbor where she was really annoyed if I didn't show up. Well, then I had no trouble. But then when I was trying to go on my own, I could never follow through. And I would say to myself, well, why can't I make time for myself? Or I need to be more motivated or I need to have

more willpower. It's like, and I'm saying, no, what you need is outer accountability. That's what explains the pattern of your successes and failures. And that's how you fix it. If my friend said to me, well, why can't I exercise? I'd be like, well, how can you get outer accountability now the way you had in high school? So you could take a class. You could work out with a trainer. You could take your dog for a run who's going to be so disappointed if he doesn't get his

run. And plus, he's going to tear up the furniture if he doesn't get his run. You could run for a charity where they're not going to make as much money if you don't complete the run. You could think of your duty to be a role model for other people. You could think of your future self and how disappointed your future self will be if your present self doesn't keep your promises to yourself. There's a million ways to have outer accountability once you realize that's what you need. Now, of course, for rebels, they don't like feeling accountable. They don't want a teacher saying, hey, Gretchen, why didn't you show up on Saturday? They want to feel like they can do whatever they want in their own way. So trying to get more accountability for a rebel would be counterproductive. But for an obliger, it's crucial. So once you know your tendency, you can be much, much more precise and effective in figuring out how to shape situations in a way that's going to get you where you want to go. My guest is Gretchen Rubin. She is a writer and host of the Happier

with Gretchen Rubin podcast. She's also the author and narrator of the audiobook, The Four Tendencies. You know, audiobooks are great for helping you be a better you, whether you want to feel healthier, get motivated, learn something new, or just listen to a great story. As it happens, I really recommend Gretchen Rubin's audiobook, The Four Tendencies, which we're talking about today in this podcast. And I recommend you get it at Audible. You see, Audible members get a credit every month good for any audiobook in the store,

regardless of price, and unused credits roll over to the next month. Didn't like your audiobook? You can exchange it, no questions asked. Plus, your books are yours to keep. With Audible, you can go back and re-listen any time, even if you cancel your membership. Audible content includes an unmatched selection of audiobooks, original audio shows, news, comedy, and more. Start a 30-day trial

and your first audiobook is free. Go to audible.com slash something or text the word something to 500-500. This is a no-risk offer that really lets you dive into the world of audiobooks that I know you're going to love.

Start a 30-day trial and get your first audiobook free. Go to audible.com slash something or text the word something to 500-500. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to, called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more.

A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about

the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Since I host a podcast,

it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years.

She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best

podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed, critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So Gretchen, I would imagine it's not only helpful to know which of these four tendencies you tend to be, but it would also be helpful if you can figure it out, which of the four tendencies other people are that you have to deal with all the time? Absolutely, absolutely. Whether it's a teacher and a student, or it's an employee and a manager, or two colleagues, or people in a, you know, two sweethearts,

and then just managing yourself, too. It's just, because the thing that is true, and I feel this so much myself, it's just very hard to realize that other people don't see the world the way we do. We just think everybody's basically having the same experience. They really aren't. They really are not. people's attention to ways that people might be having a different reaction to a situation that maybe you wouldn't have thought of. You know, I have a podcast called The Happier with Gretchen Rubin Podcast, and we get listener questions all the time. And it's so striking to me how often someone will describe a situation and their response to it. And I'm thinking, wow, I would think that if that were me in that office, I would be thinking something very different. And it wouldn't even have occurred to me that

you might be thinking what you're thinking. But now that you say it, it makes perfect sense. But I have to hear it from you because it's not what I would automatically think. I mean, something like what happens to a dirty dish in the office sink. I mean, it's crazy how many different philosophies people bring to that. There's not just one way to think about it. I think about that a lot, how people experience the same situation so differently. But it's kind of hard to remember, right? Because your own interpretation seems so dominant. It's hard to remember. There's counterperceptions. Yeah, we think what we see and feel and hear is reality, but it's just our reality. It's nobody

else's. It took me a long time to really grasp that, because I'm like, but in the end, reality is reality. And it's like, well, it's really not. Right, right. it's really not. Right. It's hardly. No. And, you know, I'm an upholder. And it's been a hugely helpful thing for me to realize, you know, there aren't that many people. The biggest tendency is obliger.

That's the one for both men and women that the largest number of people belong to. And then after that, questioners. Rebel is the smallest one. It's the one the fewest people belong to. And also upholder is very small. So I'm part of a very kind of small, extreme personality type. And this has been hugely beneficial to me because I used to feel like, why can't other people get stuff done?

Like, what is the deal? And now I understand, like, and I communicate with people very differently. Even in things like work email, I will specifically change the way that I would phrase something or communicate something or the way I do my own work process to take into account that most other people are not upholders. And then when I work with an upholder, I absolutely know that and take that into account. Like, oh, there's all this stuff that I don't have to do because I know that this person's an upholder like me. So we get it, you know? And it's not that it's hard, but you need to be aware of it, you know? And I think

having a vocabulary for it just makes that a lot easier. Well, it is interesting that so much of the advice that you hear about motivation and getting things done, like, it's very common for people to say, one of the best ways to exercise is to have accountability. But you're saying that, well, that's true for some people, but it's not true for everybody. Absolutely. And then some people don't need it. So it's like, it's burdensome. And sometimes it's helpful, even if you don't, if it's not crucial, but it's also burdensome. So if you know you don't depend on it, maybe you don't want to have to fuss with it because it's not that important for you. Whereas for somebody else,

it's crucial. And same thing along the same lines, one of the things that experts always say is, if something's really important to you, like you want to exercise, you should get up and do it first thing in the morning. And I've talked to so many people who are like, yeah, for my New Year's resolution, I'm going to get up early and go for a run before work. And my first question is, well, are you a morning person? Because there really are morning people and night people. And it's not just a question of when you go to bed. Night people are largely genetically determined and a function of age. And if you're a night person, you're just that you're much more productive and creative and energetic later in the day. You probably are barely getting to work or school on time as it

is. And the idea that you are going to try to use willpower or self-control to get yourself to get up early and go for a run, it's just you're setting yourself up for failure. I get why on paper it makes good sense. And I'm a morning person, so it would work for me. But if you're a night person, you have to figure out a different solution. It doesn't matter that everybody's like, well, this is the best way to do it. It's not the best way for you. And believe me, I mean, because night people, it's just not going to work. It's too hard for them because it goes too much against the grain of their natural, the natural rhythms of their energies. Yeah, I'm not even sure it's that black and white because I'm not a night person, but I've tried to get up in the morning and go to the gym and exercise. I'm not a night person, but I get up when I get up. And if I had to try to force myself

to get up earlier than I get up, you know, it lasted two days. And on the third day, I said, oh, no, I'm staying right here. I'm not going anywhere. Well, see, and that's the thing is a lot of times I think people are like, oh, I can't exercise. And I'm like, no, you can't get up early. You know, they've misdiagnosed the problem because they think, oh, I can't get to the gym. It's like, no, you can't get out of bed. So you're just, you're making one thing that is maybe challenging exercise, doubly challenging and maybe like even triply challenging by setting it up a circumstance. Or like I was talking to a person who wanted to learn to swim, but was very introverted and hated taking swim classes. And I'm like, you're asking yourself not to do one thing, but two things. One is to take swimming, which is hard for you. And it's something

that you like are working on a challenge and also to be in this class situation, which for you is very off-putting. So it's not like you need to find a better way for you because this is, you're, you're, you're piling too many demands onto one thing. You know, if you're trying to do a challenging habit, you want to make it as easy as possible for you. And, and, and, and like things like time of day and the circumstance, or like, I hate loud pounding music. Like I'm just very sensitive to noise. And to go to a gym where there's loud pounding music, it's like, it's not that I have a problem with exercise.

It's I have a problem with loud pounding music. So just go to a different gym. But sometimes people aren't, they just feel like, well, that's just the way a gym is. Like there's something wrong with me that I can't exercise. They don't even look below the surface to say, it's not really the exercise that's the problem. And so then they don't see how they could solve it a different way. Well, maybe you want to go for a run outside where it's quiet and peaceful and you'll have

solitude and you're starved for solitude and this is going to be a really joyful thing for you. Or whatever it might be. There's a lot of ways to do this stuff. And I think sometimes we're sort of told, well, this is the one best way. This is the way successful people do it. You should do it this way. And if you can't succeed, then there's something wrong with you. There's a lot of ways to eat healthy. There's a lot of ways to exercise. There's a lot of ways to read healthy. There's a lot of ways to exercise. There's a lot of ways to read more. There is host of the podcast Happier with Gretchen Rubin. She has an audio book out called The Four Tendencies, and there is a link to the audio book in the show notes for this episode. And if you'd like to take the quiz and figure out which of the four tendencies you are, you can take that quiz at GretchenRubin.com. Thanks, Gretchen.

Okay, bye-bye. Maybe you've thought about starting up a website for your business or organization or even your hobby, but you think, yeah, but a website is such a big commitment. It takes a lot of work. Well, if that's what you think, you need to know about Squarespace. Squarespace makes creating your website so easy. You start with their beautiful templates from award-winning designers and then customize everything so it's perfect for you. And it's easy to do. And the great thing is they have everything you need.

Free hosting, e-commerce functionality so you can sell products on your site, search engine optimization to help people find your site, and all the analytics you need to see who's visiting your site. It's really the perfect solution. It's why we chose Squarespace for an upcoming podcast website, and the site when we launch it is going to be perfect. Look, a dream is just a great idea that doesn't have a website yet. Make it a reality with Squarespace. Head over to squarespace.com for a free trial so you can really dive in and get a feel for it. Then when you're ready to launch, use the offer code SOMETHING to save 10% on your first purchase of a website or domain.

That's squarespace.com for a free trial and then use the offer code SOMETHING to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover.

We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong?

Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong?, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong? And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture.

Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. You and I make irrational decisions and we do irrational things. We don't do this stuff intentionally, but we do things like we'll stay in a relationship that we know we should get out of, or we listen to advice from someone just because they're important,

even though they may not have any qualifications to offer that advice, or we make financial decisions based on little more than a gut feeling. It actually gets deeper and more complicated than that, and a lot more fascinating. Ron Brofman, along with his brother Ori, who was a guest here several months ago, did some really interesting research on this for a best-selling book they published several years ago called Sway, The Irresistible Pull of Irrational Behavior. Hi, Ron. So what was it that pulled you guys into this work in the first place? I'm a psychologist, and my brother was getting his MBA at Stanford, and now he has an MBA. And one of the things that we saw is that in both

of our fields, there's this intersection of we're interested in why people make irrational decisions. And why do people make irrational decisions? Well, the thing is that there's several forces that when they act on us, it makes us act irrationally. For example, you have the force of commitment. So once we start something, whether it would be a project or a career or a relationship, and we put energy into it, it's very difficult to stop and look at it and say, you know what? Maybe this is not the right thing for me. Maybe I'm getting too much entangled in it. But once we start, it's very, very difficult to stop.

And the thing to do is to assess it step by step and to say, if I had to start all over again, would I still be doing what I'm doing today? Or would I do something else? And if the answer is something else, then we really have to think, am I doing something because it's the right thing for me? Or am I doing it because I'm just doing it because I've always done it? But you also hear too, that successful people are persistent, even through tough times. So how do you know whether or not you're being successfully persistent or irrationally persistent? That's an excellent question. And the difference between persistent and the commitment bias is that persistence has logic behind it. And you look at it and you say, and Warren Buffett talked about it like the first time he invested in a

stock and the stock went down and then he sold and he said, I shouldn't have sold, I should have been persistent, because there's some logic behind it. Maybe things are not going well right now, but at least I have some rationale of why I'm sticking with it. Commitment is saying, you know what, maybe I'm in a bad relationship. Maybe I'm not in the right career, but I've always done it. I'm just going to continue doing it. And there's no sound rationale behind it. Right. So talk about some of the other irrational behaviors that people do. You've got loss aversion. So people overreact to prospective losses. For example, look at gas prices and they're just shooting through the roof. And people are saying, you know what,

maybe I don't want to go on a vacation this year. And when you think about it, that's a little bit ridiculous because we don't react to gas prices in the opposite way when they go down. It's not like when gas prices go down, we say we're going to just go all over the United States. And sacrificing a vacation can be irrational when you consider that you can save money in other ways. Maybe go on vacation and just don't go to the most expensive restaurant or stay at a nice hotel but not a super hotel. But what happens is when there's a loss, a perspective loss, we overreact and then we make irrational decisions and a lot of times we feel paralyzed and we just stop everything together and don't do anything.

Yeah, and I think everybody's had that experience where they've overreacted and then looked back and said, well, no, why did I do that? Why did I, or why did I not do that? Exactly. And there's something similar to that with the force of fairness. And we found that what happens is when we're in a situation where something doesn't feel fair, we almost regret and be like, act like little kids.

And we say, you know what, we're not going to do it anymore. So if I'm at work and I don't have, I don't get the raise that I think I deserve, or if I'm talking to my wife and she says, you know what, you don't clean the house enough, and I feel like I do, a lot of times what people do is they say, I'm just going to give up. I'm just not going to do anything. And when you think about it, that's usually not the best thing to do. Oh, I think that's right on the money.

I think when people are doing what they think is the best that they can do and other people don't recognize it or other people criticize it, it's very easy to adopt that kind of juvenile attitude of, well, then screw it. Then I'm not going to do it at all. Yes, yes. And what we found is that the opposite actually works, that frequent communication is the best thing to go about establishing a sense of fairness. So if I feel like something is not going well, if I can talk to the other person and say, you know what, I know you didn't mean it, but I think actually I do do this, this, and this, and the other person's like, oh, yeah, I didn't realize it, okay.

Or if I'm at work, if I'm working on a project and I just become so concentrated on a project that I forget to talk to my boss, to my-workers, they might feel resentful towards me because they feel, hey, how come this person is just hoarding everything and they're not communicating? And the more we communicate, the more we appear fair, and the more we also feel like it's a fair situation because we become part of the process. There was a story in the book about an airline captain who was also the head of safety for the airline who then plowed into a plane on the runway because he was worried about being late. Talk about that.

Yes. What happened, his plane was diverted to this small airport, and he just needed to get his plane in the air as soon as possible because otherwise his crew would get grounded because they've been in the air as soon as possible because otherwise his crew would get grounded because they've been in the air for too long. And so he's stuck in this airport and tries to do everything he can to get out, and he just doesn't, nothing happens. And so finally, finally he gets clearance, and he's saying, you know what, I'm going to take off.

And then his co-pilot says, you know what, I don't think we have flight clearance. I think they just got the ATC clearance, which means your flight plan has been cleared. And he ignores his co-pilot, and he takes off. And unfortunately, there's a plane right there on the runway that Vincent didn't see, and they collide. And it causes the biggest aeronautical disaster in history. 584 people get killed. And now people are saying, what was going on in Vincentian's head? Well, two things.

First of all, he was so committed to taking off that he forgot to take into consideration the basic, basic safety mechanism. And the second thing is loss aversion. He was so afraid of the losses he would incur if his flight was grounded that he did everything he could to avoid the loss, and ironically, of course, created a huge loss in the process. And in retrospect, you know, pretty stupid. Yeah, and that's what happens when we look back, we think, what was I thinking? What was going on? But when those forces are acting on us, we stop thinking rationally, and you've got perfectly rational people acting irrationally.

Well, and there are plenty of people who are seemingly normal, rational people who momentarily did something irrational and got themselves in a whole bunch of trouble. I mean, road rage is the perfect example. I mean, people who are seemingly nice, normal folks just lose it, and all hell breaks loose. Exactly, exactly. How many times we look back in our lives and we hell breaks loose. Exactly, exactly. How many times we look back in our lives and we say, you know what, if only we would have thought about it a little bit more, if only we would have acted a little bit more coolly. And that's the thing to do, to recognize those forces that act in us.

And that's what we represent in the book. We're saying, look at all these forces. And when you catch yourself in your life, when you see these forces around you, you got to slow down and you're going to think and you're going to think, and you're going to say, am I making a rational decision, or am I getting swayed by all these forces acting on me? So clearly, timing is important. And in fact, I remember interviewing someone who spoke on the subject of conflict resolution, and she had a great line that I always remembered, and that is,

strike when the iron is cold. In other words, wait, settle down, think it through before you do anything. Exactly. I mean, you know, how many times we've driven in the car, and then you see the yellow light just about, you know, to turn red, and you think, you know, I can make it. And even if you make it, just speeding so you can make it, speeding through the intersection, you're just putting yourself in great danger. What if there's other cars coming? What if you're not going to be able

to brake in time? All to say, to shave two minutes off of a commute, and you look at it back and you say, is that really worth it? And the thing to do is to try to not act based on raw emotion. You talk about how culture can play into this sometimes, and you give the example of the TV show Who Wants to Be a Millionaire and how people react in different cultures to that. Talk about that. You look at the show Who Wants to Be a Millionaire, and what happened is when they aired the show in different countries, the audiences acted differently. So in Russia, they thought that the audience would purposefully give the contestants the wrong answer when the contestant asked for help from the audience. And then we looked and said, like, what was

going on? And we talked to a Russian expert, and it turns out that what happens is that the Russian audiences didn't think it was fair for somebody to get rich with their help. Why should I help someone if I'm not getting any of the money and they're going to get rich? So it's a different cultural perspective of what it means to be helpful, what it means to be fair. And then in France, what the audience does a lot of times, if they feel the contestant should have known the answer, if they feel the contestant is ignorant, then they give them the wrong answer because they say that person is not deservant of winning the money. And it's so interesting how Americans think differently about what it means to be helpful to a stranger than a Russian would or

somebody from France might. Talk about that experiment with the rope bridge. Yes, so it's a classic experiment in psychology. It was done in Vancouver, and you have these men who cross this bridge over a canyon. It's a rope bridge, a suspension rope bridge, not very stable. So you've got the adrenaline pumping, and then at the end of the bridge stands a young, attractive woman asking you, can I get your time and ask you a few questions about a project I'm doing on creativity? Now, unbeknownst to the man, the woman is not really doing a project on creativity. She's one of the research assistants.

And then towards the end, she says, you know what, if you want to know more about this topic, give me a call. And she tears a piece of paper and writes her number on it. And then the same thing was done in another part of the park where people, young men were walking over just a normal, sturdy wood bridge. Now, when they looked at the phone and saw who called, the young men who crossed the suspension bridge were twice as likely to call the research assistant as the guys who were walking over the wooden bridge. And the reason for that is because when your adrenaline is pumping

and there's an attractive person there, all your emotions become more intense. And so you translate that emotion. Instead of saying, hmm, I have adrenaline pumping, you say, wow, I'm so excited. It must be because I'm attracted to this woman. Why do you think, or what does the research say, as to why this loss aversion thing, why this hasn't either evolved out of humans, or what purpose does it serve, or what purpose did it serve long ago? Well, that's a really good question. I mean, you look at cavemen, and maybe it would have made sense to be loss averse, that if you have one deer that you kill

once a year, you do want to stake your life on it to make sure that you don't lose it if there's another bear, say, or a wolf that comes and tries to steal it. But in modern life, we shouldn't act like primitive people, and we should say, you know what, losses don't mean as much as they used to, or something with fairness. In ancient times, people had to play fairly, because if not, you could get cheated, and you can lose all your money, you can lose a lot of things. But nowadays, we're not under so much danger as we used to be, but we act with the same intensity as we used to act. And I think the intensity is where the moderation needs to come in.

So you're saying it is a primitive instinct that once served a purpose, but now it really just gets in the way. Exactly. Not only does it get in the way, ironically, it makes us go back to being primitive and acting primitive ways that derail us from making good decisions and living productively in modern life. Talk about the diagnosis bias. Yes.

We looked at people doing job interviews and what do managers do when they interview someone. And one study shows that managers actually make the decision about who they're going to hire within minutes of the interview. Even the handshake, if you give them a fair handshake, that actually gets diagnosed. Now, when you look at the actual numbers, that's a really poor diagnosis because if

you have a firm handshake, that's not really going to translate into you being a good employee. But what happens is that managers don't realize that they're focusing on the wrong criterion. As a psychologist, they see that all the time when people come in and they say, I don't realize that they're focusing on the wrong criterion. As a psychologist, they see that all the time when people come in and they say, I don't know why my relationships don't end up well. I don't know why I keep picking the wrong guys or the wrong women. And it's because we focus on the wrong things. Instead of saying, you know what, I want somebody who's honest and kind and attractive

and somebody who's outgoing, we look at somebody and we say, wow, she has a great body, I'm going to go out with her. Or we look at a guy and say, wow, he seems like he's really tough, I'm going to go out with him, but that might not be the best match for who I'm really looking for. And isn't it true, in fact, I remember Robert Cialdini, who wrote a blurb on your book, has said that we tend to like people who we perceive are like us. Yes, and that's exactly what happens in job interviews. When somebody reminds you of yourself, you say, wow, that person seems like a really nice guy or a really nice gal.

But they might remind you of yourself, but first of all, you're only looking at somebody under a 30-minute microscope. They may not actually be that way. And the second thing, you don't want a company full of people who are exactly like you. You want diversity. But we don't know how to handle diversity. We're kind of afraid of it. We're not comfortable with it.

Talk about the group dynamic that you speak of in the book about how blockers are just as important as initiators. Yes. So we interviewed Justice Breyer in the U.S. Supreme Court, and what he said is that dissent is extremely important, that in a group dynamic, when you have a justice who can stand up and say, you know what, I disagree with this opinion for this and that reason, that that's really, really important because it makes the overall opinion of the court a lot stronger because it adds another perspective. But what happens usually in group dynamics, we love people who are initiators. We love the people who come up and say, you know what, this is a great idea,

and we should do this and we should do that, and we think of them as charismatic and optimistic. And we don't really like the people who stand up and say, you know what, I don't think that's going to work out. I think that's a bad idea. I don't think it's going to go as well as you think. And we're kind of like, you know, come on, don't ruin the party. Just be more optimistic. Don't be so negative. But those people are really essential for us making rational decisions

because they are able to thwart irrational decisions. And it's the person who puts on the brakes, so to speak, on a runaway car, and we need to listen to them. Now, they might be wrong, but their message needs to be incorporated. And even if we disagree with them, we need to say, you know what, speak up, so that way we can discuss what's going on. And unfortunately, we don't give blockers enough time to really communicate and say what they want to say. And people are afraid to be dissenters and be blockers because they know they're going to get perceived as being a pain in the neck.

Right. Well, that's how they're perceived, as they're getting in the way of the progress here. Yes, yes. Imagine I interview for a job and I say, you know what, I tend to disagree with people. And I tend to sometimes point out how things are not going to work out. Nobody's going to hire me. But as an organization, you want to have someone like that. In a family, you want to have someone like that, because they can actually keep the family on track.

They can look at the worst-case scenario and make sure that that doesn't happen. Well, I must admit, it is interesting and fun to listen to how we humans do irrational things and think irrational thoughts. But maybe by understanding how we do these irrational things, we can be more rational about it. Ron Brofman has been my guest. He and his brother Ori Brofman are co-authors of a couple of best-selling books. The one we've been talking about today is Sway, The Irresistible Pull of Irrational Behavior. There's a link to the book in the show notes,

and I appreciate you being here. Thanks, Ron. If your kids have allergies or eczema, it could be your dishwasher's fault. Here's the theory. Dishes washed in a dishwasher are sanitized. Dishes washed by hand have more bacteria on them because washing dishes by hand is less effective in reducing bacteria. So children in homes without a dishwasher are exposed to more microbes,

and this plays into the idea that growing up in a squeaky clean house can actually increase the risk of autoimmune conditions like allergies because the immune system doesn't have anything to do, so it makes stuff up, basically. It seems that exposing your children to many different types of bacteria keeps the immune system busy and working properly. A survey of parents of over 1,000 children between the ages of 7 and 8 support this theory. The risk of developing an allergy was further reduced if a child also ate fermented food, like sauerkraut, or produce that has been bought directly from a farm.

Fermentation of food is a bacterial process, and food from a farm will likely have more bacteria than processed foods. And all of that seems to help the immune system keep working properly. And that is something you should know. Like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter, where we post additional content beyond what you hear in the program. And if you'd like to email me, I'm at mike at somethingyoushouldknow.net. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law Thank you. Kelly Marie Tran, and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts.

Contained herein are the heresies of Rudolf Buntwine, erstwhile monk-turned-traveling medical investigator. Join me as I study the secrets of the divine plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth that ours is not a loving God and we are not its favored children. The heresies of Redolf Bantwine, wherever podcasts are available.