Something You Should Know - How to Easily Negotiate (Almost) Anything & Why You Need the Rat Race

Episode Date: June 4, 2018

Mental health is complicated. But there are some things that can trigger depression in almost anyone. I begin this episode with a list of things that can cause you to lose your objectivity and make you sad if you let them. (https://www.everydayhealth.com/columns/therese-borchard-sanity-break/surprising-reasons-young-people-get-depressed/) If you knew there was a good chance that you could get a discount on a new shirt or pair of pants or a vacuum cleaner – but you had to ask – would you? It turns out that you can get discounts on many items in retail stores by asking but you have to ask the right way. To find out how listen to my discussion with Emily Hunter. Emily Hunter. Emily is an associate professor of management at Baylor University's Hankamer School of Business, where she teaches negotiation and conflict management. (https://business.baylor.edu/directory/?id=Emily_M_Hunter) Who hasn’t felt guilty about not visiting grandma or some other friend or relative? You go when you can but you wish you could go more often– right? Well if you ever feel that way, there is something important to understand. It is called the “certainty of contact.” I’ll explain what it is. (Dr. Charles Foster, author of Feel Better Fast - https://amzn.to/2Jm9YdH)  How often have you heard people talk about the “rat race” and how important it is to get out of it? The idea is that the rat race is so stressful that it is somehow bad for you. But is it really? Not according to economist Todd Buchholz author of the book, RUSH: Why You Need and Love the Rat Race (https://amzn.to/2LiKQSF). Todd makes a compelling case that the stress of the rat race is exactly the fuel we need. By the way Todd served as White House director of economic policy under George H.W. Bush. His latest book is called The Price of Prosperity: How Rich Nations Fail and How to Renew Them (https://amzn.to/2Linigr) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today on Something You Should Know, the simple lack of play and having fun is just one of several things that can trigger depression. I'll tell you some of the others. Then you might be amazed at how many times you can get a discount at a retail store just by asking. These days the retail stores are often empowering and training their cashiers and even their floor sales people to negotiate. Plus, if you ever feel guilty about not visiting a family member often enough,

there's something important to remember. And if you think it's a good idea to eliminate stress and get out of the rat race, think again. People who try to remove all stress from their lives end up no more happy than those who find themselves engaged in the rat race. So maybe we just have to recognize that we were born to create and endure stress. All this today on Something You Should Know. As a listener to Something You Should Know, I can only assume that you are someone who likes to learn about new and interesting things and bring more knowledge to work for you in your everyday life. I mean, that's kind of what Something You Should Know was all about. And so I want to invite you to listen to another podcast called TED Talks Daily.

Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about Ted Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done Ted Talks. Well, you see, Ted Talks Daily is a podcast that brings you a new Ted Talk every weekday in less than 15 minutes. Join host Elise Hu. She goes beyond the headlines so you can hear about the big ideas shaping our future. Learn about things like sustainable fashion, embracing your entrepreneurial spirit,

the future of robotics, and so much more. Like I said, if you like this podcast, Something You Should Know, I'm pretty sure you're going to like TED Talks Daily. And you get TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts. Something You should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts.

And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. I bet you've struggled yourself or know someone who has struggled with depression at some time in their life, it's pretty common. And maybe you've wondered why people get depressed. Well, mental health is a complex issue, but there are some things that seem to cause depression that you may not realize. Lack of play is one of them. Play allows your brain to breathe and form the neurons that help you fend off negative, intrusive thoughts. In his Psychology Today blog called The Decline of Play and the Rise of Mental Disorders, Peter Gray connects the rise of depression and anxiety among children and adolescents

with the deterioration of relaxed play in our society. Antibiotics are another cause. At least in studies of mice, the use of antibiotics disrupted intestinal bacteria and caused changes in mood and made them more anxious. Screen time. A British study in 2013 found that children who spent more than four hours a day in front of computer screens or television had lower self-esteem and greater emotional problems such as anxiety and depression.

Divorce is certainly a cause of depression. A study published in the Journal of Marriage and Family found that divorce had serious consequences on the psychological well-being of children both before and after the divorce, and that the negative effect could not be attributed to the pre-divorce stress within the family. And stress in general. While some stress is good, which is what we're going to talk about later in this podcast, too much stress compromises almost every biological system in your body, wearing out important organs so that you are vulnerable to mood disruptions.

And that is something you should know. I remember hearing a long time ago that you can negotiate anything, that we pay retail price for a lot of things we could get cheaper if we just asked. And while I understand that's true when it comes to cars and boats and houses, I'm not the kind of guy that's likely to ask for a discount on a bag of potatoes at the grocery store or even on a pair of pants at the department store. But maybe I should.

Maybe we should be asking for discounts a lot more often when we go retail shopping. Why? Because fewer and fewer people are going retail shopping in brick-and-mortar stores, so those stores are motivated to move merchandise by matching prices, making concessions, and making it easier for you to buy. That's according to my guest, Emily Hunter. Emily is an Associate Professor of Management at Baylor University School of Business, where she teaches negotiation and conflict management, among other things.

Hi, Emily. Thanks for being here. Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to talk about negotiating. So this idea of walking into a store and negotiating the retail price on something, I think makes a lot of people uncomfortable. It makes me uncomfortable. I've tried it a few times, and I'll admit they were pretty half-hearted attempts at it because it just doesn't feel right to me. And usually the response is, no, we don't do that here. We don't negotiate. Well, first I'll say you're not alone. Most people

are very reluctant to negotiate. It's not a skill that I think most people would consider themselves good at. But I think there is so much more opportunity now to negotiate, especially in retail and big box stores, because the retail landscape is changing. As we all know, there's so much more online competition. And so the big box stores are desperate for you to buy. If you're in their store, if you're walking in there, they want you to make a purchase. And so they are highly motivated to work with you. And sometimes that means coming down on their price. Is it safe to say that the higher the price, the better the chances?

You know, that's not always true. Because I think you could even negotiate a bell pepper at a grocery store that has a bruise on it. I mean, really, it's any possible range of item that you can think of is possibly negotiable if you just remember a few, you know, kind of reminders and tips. Well, that's a good place to dive in because people hear that you could negotiate the price of a bell pepper with a bruise. Well, come on, really? I mean, who's going to do that? And you think, well, the people that you're asking are going to think you're such a dweeb for asking for a few cents off a bell pepper. Just buy the bell nominal. But what I keep in mind and what I teach my students is that every opportunity at a retail store is an opportunity for you to practice your skills. It's a little bit like a game. And if you think about negotiating as a game,

and that every time you engage in that game that you're practicing and improving your own skills, then I think it's easier for you to justify why you might negotiate the bell pepper. So let's go through some of the tactics and the strategies that you recommend to help people negotiate better, and I'll let you lead the way. So first, when you find an item that you want to negotiate. And it's often easier to find something that there's a reason why it might be more negotiable. So for example, finding some sort of defect, like I said, the bruise on the vegetable, something that's wrong with it, even a very minor defect. I mean, even being mislabeled on the shelf. Those are all really good reasons to

try to ask for a lower price, even if it's a stain on a shirt that you know that you might be able to wash out. So once you find an item, though, you really have to kind of think on your feet once you find the defect or whatever it is that's prompting you to negotiate this item. How do you do that? There's a few things that you can do to prepare yourself very quickly right there in the middle of that store. So I would encourage you to think about three things to prepare. The first is to set a goal for yourself. Research finds that it's really important to have a goal in mind when you're going into a negotiation. And that goal should be a really

strong goal. So if you're the customer, then you should think into a negotiation. And that goal should be a really strong goal. So if you're the customer, then you should think about a really strong high discount from that shirt. Maybe the shirt's originally $20. Why don't you ask for 50% off? Because you never really know how desperate they might be willing to get rid of that item. So don't sell yourself short. Don't assume, oh, I'm probably only going to get 10% off. And so then you ask for 10% and says that a high goal and ask for 50 even ask for 75% off just to start the conversation. The second thing to prepare is sort of the opposite of a goal. So what is the most you're willing to pay for that item or your red line price?

So if you're willing to pay the original price, the sticker price, then that's okay. But maybe you're not willing to pay that for a damaged item. So think about what is the most you're willing to pay. And then third, consider what is your best alternative to buy an item like this. So if you fail, if they reject you and they say, nope, we can't give you a discount, then what will you do next? What's your backup plan? And that might often be doing a little research and finding a similar item online or a similar item at another store. So three quick things you can do to prepare in the moment. Does that make sense?

Yeah. And it brings up a point of, okay, so now it's time to go talk. And I bet it really matters who you talk to. Definitely does matter. And so sometimes this is kind of a trial and error process, but it is best to find a person to talk to at the store that probably has a little more authority that might be in a manager. But these days, the retail stores are often empowering and training their cashiers and even their floor salespeople to negotiate. So don't be afraid to ask the person on the floor or to ask the cashier for a discount because a lot of times they're empowered to go ahead and give you one right there. Now, sometimes they have a limit of what they can offer. Maybe they can only offer 15% for a damaged item. And that might be good enough for you. But if you want more than that, then you

might need to go to a manager. And you have to keep in mind that this process happens all day long for them. Those cashiers, they are constantly having people come up and ask for discounts. You may not feel like that. You may, because you don't ever negotiate, you may feel like, oh, they're going to think I'm such a terrible person or I'm so greedy or I'm so annoying because I'm asking. But keep in mind that they have people ask them for discounts all day long. So it's a very normal thing for them. And they'll just refer you to a manager if they can't deal with it themselves. And the managers definitely deal with this all the time. And whenever you speak with someone who has the authority and

who's willing to talk with you about it, they are likely to offer you a minor discount. But I encourage you to keep pushing for more. So if the item is damaged, touch the damage, like really point out what is wrong with that item and then ask for a specific price. So what people tend to do that's I think a mistake is people, they want to play it safe and they want to say, oh, is there something more you can do for me? Or is this negotiable? Right, right. That's me. Those kind of open-ended questions, right? Because that's really safe and that's really easy to ask that. But the problem is it's so much easier to say no to an open-ended question like

that. Instead, when you're negotiating retail, give a very specific price counter offer. Don't be afraid to make a really strong discount request. Because the worst they can say, the worst that can happen is they can say no. I'm speaking with Emily Hunter. Emily is an associate professor of management at Baylor University's School of Business, where she teaches about negotiating. Of course, you don't want to think about it, but disasters do happen. They just do. And what you do in the first 72 hours can mean the difference between life and death.

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kind of polite. You know, I have this shirt and I really love this style and it's a shirt that I want to buy, but I found this stain right here on the sleeve and I'm not really sure if that's going to be able to come out in the wash. And so, you know, I'm wondering if I could get 50% off because of this stain and I'm pointing to it and I'm showing you and I'm touching it. What get 50% off because of this stain. And I'm pointing to it, and I'm showing you, and I'm touching it. What? Get out of my store. Very unlikely that you say that to me, right? Because I'm a customer, and you're trying to make me happy. What would you say you think more reasonably?

That's asking a lot, but maybe we could do something like 25%. That's really great. I really appreciate you working with me. That's really kind of you to offer. But this stain, I think, is worth a bit more than a 25% discount because I don't think it's going to come out. And I think it's a little bit unsightly. And you're probably going to have a hard time selling it to anyone else, to be honest. So because of this stain, I would love to consider a 50% discount. Um, but do I need to talk to a manager about that? Oh yeah. You need to talk to a manager because I don't want to talk to you anymore. That's right. They're going to refer you,

but, but be nice and polite. Right. And so don't be too annoying and they may keep talking with you, but they may not be authorized. So they may have to refer you to a manager and guess what? Managers are authorized to give you steep discounts. So they may have to refer you to a manager. And guess what? Managers are authorized to give you steep discounts. So you can often get more out of a manager. Because what's their motive? What happens if that, I mean, it obviously depends on what it is and where it is and everything else, but typically what's going to happen to that shirt if you don't buy it and nobody else buys it? Is that a hassle for the store or probably not a big hassle, but they lose the sale? Exactly. It's really helpful to put yourself in the shoes of the

people that work in the store or the people that own the store and think about what do they want. I mean, certainly they want a sale. They want profit from you. They also want to make you happy. So it's helpful to use persuasive tactics, persuasion to remind them of what's important to them. So the way that I was sort of saying, maybe no one else is going to buy this shirt, you know, I'll take it off your hands is one way to think about it. But I could also help them buy something else. Like I'm willing to buy three other full price shirts if you'll give me a 50% discount on this one shirt.

Okay, but what if there's nothing wrong and there isn't a shirt up there, there isn't a cabinet with a defect? It's just that you'd like a better price or you'd like to test the waters and see if there's a better price and there's nothing to discuss about the product. It's just you think it's high. So maybe you could get it for less. You know, one way to do that is to compare it to an alternative somewhere else where you could buy the same product for less. And people do this all the time, right? It's the price matching policies that most stores have. So if you can find it cheaper online and you can show the clerk or the manager that price online, they'll often match prices. This is the way that they're trying to stay competitive.

But I would encourage you to ask for an additional 10% beyond the price match if you buy it today right now. Oftentimes I'll look online and the price online is the same as the price in the store and it's the same everywhere. And there's really no, there's nowhere to dig in. It's just, I mean, I guess it still can't hurt to ask, but you don't have much evidence to support your position if everybody's selling it for the same price, including this guy. That's right. So it kind of depends. If it's a really high dollar item, like a TV, a full price high end TV, or especially any sort of furniture, a lot of times those items are marked up. And so they will still bargain with you, even though there's nothing wrong with it. So you can, especially on furniture,

have a lot of wiggle room to negotiate a lower price, even without finding any sort of defects. But again, you're not going to be 100% successful, right? I don't think every item is negotiable. But I think that there are some circumstances where you can push yourself to try to negotiate when you normally wouldn't have thought about that or wouldn't have had the courage to try. I think probably the most interesting thing to me that you've said, because I've never thought of this, is that those clerks in those stores, when you're feeling all sheepish about going to ask for that discount, people have been doing that to them all day long. And I never think of that. I think I'm the one that's making a fool of myself, asking for 20% off this shirt because there's a stain on it. But you're saying that's just not true. That's right. I think that it's really not unusual to them. The fears that you build up in your brain about what they think about you are much more elaborate and imaginative than what they actually

think about you. They may find you slightly annoying because it's taking longer to interact with you than their normal interaction, but they are not going to think that you're a jerk. And you said that practicing these skills can help you, say, in a job interview, but it doesn't necessarily seem to me as if it's directly transferable because it's such a different kind of negotiation, but you're going to tell me I'm wrong, so go ahead. No, I do want to point out that it is a very different negotiation. Anytime that you are working with someone that you have a relationship with, or you're trying to foster a relationship,

you actually use somewhat very different skills to negotiate those kinds of interactions. So I could talk all day about salary negotiations but those negotiations you're going to really work to build that relationship with your future boss or your future employer but ultimately it still requires the same level of confidence that you can negotiate and so many people especially we know women are not negotiating their job offers. And this can maybe partially explain the gender wage gap, right? There's a lot of research on that. And so I really want to empower women especially to negotiate their job offer every time. And so we can build our confidence up in these smaller interactions so that we're ready for the job offers.

I remember talking with someone, perhaps an interview, I think on this podcast, of somebody who was an expert in salary negotiations, who said that there was some research, because people's fear is that if you look too greedy, they're going to say, well, then forget it, we'll hire somebody else. That they couldn't find any incidents of that ever happening. That asking for more money. I completely agree.

I have worked with a lot of HR professionals and managers who extend job offers. We bring these people into our career fairs here at Baylor University. And so I will often talk to those people at the career fair about the negotiating experience. Because I want to know if I'm empowering my students to negotiate job offers, I want to make sure that that's okay, that I'm doing the right thing and not teaching them to, you know, just be greedy and ask for higher salary and that employers don't like that. I have never heard a hiring manager or an HR person tell me that they would take the

job offer away. Actually, they are all almost universally happy that I'm teaching negotiating skills because their employees need these skills at work. And they want their candidate, job candidate to try to negotiate, even if maybe they can't give any higher salary, they love to see the candidates try. And so the biggest fear that people have is that that job offer will be taken away if they seem too greedy. I've never had a student tell me a job offer was taken away, entry-level jobs, you know, fresh out of college, never taken away. I've never had a hiring manager tell me that they would take that job offer away. So I think that fear is just in our minds.

Yeah. Well, I remember also in that same conversation that someone said, not only has it never happened, but it's expected that the HR people expect you to ask for more. That's why they offered you less. that they may be shooting at the lowest end of the range that they have available. And some jobs, think about it like sales or other jobs where you're going to actually negotiate on the job, that hiring manager might be disappointed if you don't negotiate. And they may think, maybe I hired the wrong person. So if it's expected as part of the job, then I would absolutely negotiate it and come in strong and well prepared. Well, it's empowering to hear you talk because I think most people would say, you know, I don't want to be the one. I don't want to be that guy. Like there's only one guy that does that. But lots of people do it. And it's in many ways expected. And the world won't come to an end if they say no, you just you buy the shirt or you don't and you go home. That's right. It's okay if you don't buy the shirt.

It's fine. You'll find another shirt somewhere else. My guest has been Emily Hunter. She is an Associate Professor of Management at Baylor University School of Business where she teaches negotiation and conflict management, among other things. And there's a link to her website in the show notes. Thanks for being here, Emily. Yes, thanks so much for having me. It's been great. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world,

looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson,

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Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. me we tackle our listeners dilemmas with hilariously honest advice then we have but am i wrong which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice plus we share our hot takes on current events then tune in to see you next tuesday for our lister poll results from but am i wrong and finally wrap up your week with fisting friday where we catch up and talk all things pop culture listen to don't blame me but am i wrong I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. When you hear the term rat race, you know exactly what I mean. It's that grind of everyday work and life, and it doesn't have a particularly positive connotation to it.

There's a lot of advice about getting out of the rat race, because being in the rat race is somehow doing you harm. Well, since many of us are in the rat race, whether we like it or not, maybe we should look a little closer at it and see just how bad the rat race is. Or perhaps it isn't. Todd Buchholz is an economist who served as White House Director of Economic Policy under George H.W. Bush. He's also a speaker and a writer, and his latest book is called The Price of Prosperity, How Rich Nations Fall and How to Renew Them. And prior to that,

he wrote a book called Rush, Why You Need and Love the Rat Race. Hi, Todd. Welcome. Good to be with you, Mike. So I guess I first have to ask you why you tackled the topic of the rat race, because you're an economist, you've worked for President Bush, you've written about nations and their economies. So why turn your attention to the rat race? I had been concerned and had been thinking about all the stress that we all are under, whether we're entrepreneurs or whether we're parents and stressed children are under. And I thought, wow, the whole system is turning us into a bunch of rats in a maze, and it's making us crazy and so on.

And then I started doing some research into neuropsychology and some more recent tests that have been done and looked at the history of nations, and I decided, you know what, some stress is good for us. Countries that try to remove stress end up being poor, being weak, being conquered, and people who try to remove all stress from their lives end up no more happy than those who find themselves engaged in the rat race. So maybe we just have to recognize that we were born to create and endure stress, and we just have to figure out the best way to deal with it, as opposed to thinking that we should just meditate all day, do yoga, and ignore productive

and sometimes anxiety-inducing activities. Well, but it isn't necessarily either or, right? I mean, in fact, you know, we have listeners all over the world, but most of our listeners are in the U.S., but a lot of times I hear people point to the Scandinavian countries as that they've figured it out, that it's not so stressful there. Look, there's no country, there's no people that really has shown that they've found the secret to happiness. There's a little country near Nepal in the Himalayas called Bhutan, and about 10 or 15 years ago, the king of Bhutan declared that his country placed a priority on happiness. And essentially, they tried to become more socialistic, remove capitalist urges, and basically the place became poorer and people became more depressed, not less depressed. In my book, Rush, I talk about Edenists, that is like the Garden of Eden,

people who think that somewhere, someplace, we can recapture the Garden of Eden. And the fact is, man was put on Earth or maybe evolved on earth in a way that, in fact, requires some stress. You know, dopamine flows through our brains and our bloodstream, and that's a chemical that creates feelings of pleasure, but those feelings of pleasure and joy are often accompanied by stress. So, for instance, the kid, it's prom season in my neighborhood, in my household. The kid who works up the nerve to ask a girl or a girl to ask a boy or so on to the prom, there's stress involved in that. Asking for a raise from your boss, there's stress involved in that. Asking for a raise from your boss, there's stress involved in that. Being pregnant and carrying a baby is a very stressful thing.

But my point is, Mike, the same kinds of activities that bring us great joy and happiness and pleasure also are accompanied by a more rapid heart rate, which could be interpreted as stress. And so we shouldn't be spending our lives trying to figure out, well, how do we get out of the rat race? How do we remove ourselves from the stress? But instead, how do we find balance? Well, that was going to be my next question, because you could argue or you could infer from what you're saying is that the more stressed out you are, the better. But I don't suspect that's what you're saying. No, I don't think the more stressed out, the better.

But if you're not feeling any stress, then you're probably in a state of stasis, meaning there's probably not much forward movement in your life. And ultimately, that no forward movement in your life leads to a life of sitting on the television, sorry, sitting on the sofa, watching television, not getting up much, getting fat, having a less able-bodied existence, and probably less pleasure and joy in your life. Do you think, though, that there are personal differences? That the one person who may just thrive on the rat race, that other people may not?

That they thrive, you know, making clay pots in the mountains? When you think about moments in your life that are memorable for good reasons, they tend not to be simply sitting on a beach chair. They tend to be about engaging with people, engaging with new ideas. It's funny, there's a fellow I know who was a very successful landscaper here in Southern California. And when I first met him through a friend of mine, he told me he had retired. He was about 45 years old, and he was very successful. He made a lot of money. And he took early retirement.

He was telling me how much he enjoyed his early retirement. And he was, you know, merely, you know, reading books, going to the gym and so on. But then, unfortunately for that plan, he tripped upon my book Rush. And then he read my book Rush. He said, Todd, I think I've made a mistake. So he went back. He bought his business back.

Now he's totally engaged in his business, and he tells me he's happier than ever. Well, I think it comes as good news to people who do love the rat race, who do love their work, who like the competition because they're often vilified for doing so, as if there's something wrong with them, that if you do love your work, that somehow you're ignoring your family or your social obligations or there's something wrong with you. Well, in fact, it's interesting. When you look at studies of what sorts of people work the longest hours,

that, well, the people who work the most hours must be the poorest people. They have to make ends meet, and therefore, you know, they just have to crawl on their bellies into coal mines or work in the dusty, dirty factories. But that's not true. Not true anymore, at least. Those people who work the longest hours are the entrepreneurs.

And also those who are in the so-called professional classes that is investment bankers and lawyers and doctors. And it's often those people who actually have a choice. Do I work more or do I work less? Decide I actually like to work. Most Americans, in fact, are either satisfied or very satisfied with their jobs. Now, would they prefer to be paid better? Sure, everyone would.

Would they prefer more benefits? Sure, everyone. But in general, most Americans are not going to work each day and coming home complaining that, boy, I wish I did something else. I wish I didn't have this job. So I think it's a lot of fantasizing that goes on. And look, it's fine to fantasize, but it's not fine to say, gosh, we should change the entire economic system so that everyone lays around and expects somebody else to do the work. And I think, as you pointed out, that although that may seem appealing, you know, the grass

is always greener. And like the guy that bought his business back, you know, realizing, you know, maybe this isn't so great to have nothing to do. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, there's an all saying about socialism gives every, socialism gives everyone a bed, but no reason to get out of it in the morning. You know, if you can find a better system, there was a wonderful book that I quote in Rush, I believe it was called Chinese Lessons, and it was written by a Washington Post reporter

who earlier in his career had been a graduate student in China. And this was still during the kind of Maoist era in the late 70s, early 80s, as I recall. And now we would think, well, Maoist communist China doesn't have the capitalistic rat race and dog-eat-dog mentality. Well, he tells the story about applying to graduate school in China while he was living in China, and his fellow students, who were all Chinese other than himself, would be filling out applications so that they could pursue higher education in China.

He said people would steal each other's papers out of the mailboxes, tear them up, intercept them, so that the applicant would have a better chance of beating his classmates and getting into graduate school. So my point here, Mike, is that any system, whether you call it capitalist, communist, socialist, or some hybrid, every system has some form of competition. The only question is, is the system set up so the competition leads to better goods, better services, longer lifespans, better medicines, more interesting products and entertainment and freer speech? Or does the competition lead you to try to stomp on your neighbor and steal his application to graduate school? So we can't avoid competition.

That's part of human nature. What we shouldn't avoid is a system that actually somehow, almost magically, has figured out in the last 600 years how to raise the standard of living so that we no longer are living more or less as, you know, in the old days you would call savages. For most of man's life on earth, he has lived no better on two legs than he had on four legs. But the magic of a kind of capitalist free enterprise system is that we now have a standard of living where just in the last 120 years, life expectancy has moved from about 46 years of age to 80 years of age. Imagine, 46 years of age was life expectancy around the turn of the century in 1900. And now it's roughly 80 and certainly is rising every decade.

Well, you often hear people claim that the playing field is not level, that some people are more privileged and have opportunities that other people don't have. But I've always thought, but that's always been the case. And so what? I mean, you still have to go out and do the best you can, starting with where you are. Well, and it's not a zero-sum game. Again, this is the kind of Edenist socialist myth. They see a fat person and a skinny person walking down the street and figure, well, the skinny person's skinny because the fat person ate all his food. Well, that's not the way it works.

As I said, our standard of living has gone up tenfold in the century. Our life expectancy has almost doubled, and our life expectancy has not doubled because other people have found their life expectancy cut in half. That's not the way it works. spread. In 1960, it took an average worker 100 hours of labor in order to buy a washing machine. That's over two weeks of work, hourly work, and an average wage to afford a washing machine. Well, now the average worker can afford a washing machine after roughly three days of labor. When you look at the so-called penetration of goods into even poor households, the percentage of the poorest households that have a television or a flat screen television, the benefits of this competition have been spread unevenly. It's true, but the overall standard of living has gone up tremendously. The average house is about 40% bigger than it was when I was a kid. The average family has twice as many cars as they had when I was a kid. And by the way, Mike, I'm not old. It's just that over

the last 30 years, there's been tremendous prosperity. And partly as a result, or mainly as a result, of people competing and moving the bar of making things better. That's absolutely right. Look, every day there are scientists in American universities who are waking up early, staying up late, scurrying around. Why? Because they're trying to figure out a way to cure, whether they're curing cancer or curing baldness. There are competitive juices there. Jonas Salk was a lab rat. He didn't want to leave the lab. He was a tough guy and a tough researcher.

And because of him, the so-called sock vaccine was developed and millions and millions of people around the world benefited in very profound ways and boy if he was just sort of a laid-back guy chanting mantras and working merely you know 10 a.m. and rolling out at 2 30 in the afternoon I'm afraid there'd be many more people today still walking around or hobbling without the benefit of the Salk vaccine. So sum this all up for me. What's the point here? What's the takeaway? The takeaway is that we have to realize we can't escape competition. It's within our bodies. It's within our brains. It often gives us pleasure.

Stress can give us pleasure. And we want an economic and a political system that allows us to flourish even within that. Same time, we don't want to go crazy either. So it's important to have some sense of mental health as well. And the last factor is, in all of this, the most important neurological economic issue is going to be education for this next century. And so for that reason, I commend all of your listeners to go to the App Store and download Kyle Counts, and you won't have to pay a dime to do so. It'll help your kids equip themselves for a more competitive world economy.

Great. That's Todd Buchholz. He is an economist who served as White House Director of Economic Policy under George H.W. Bush. His book is called Rush, Why You Need and Love the Rat Race. And his latest book is called The Price of Prosperity, How Rich Nations Fall and How to Renew Them. There are links to his book on our website in the show notes as well as to his app. Thanks, Todd. All right. Thanks, Mike. Good luck to you. Although I probably already know the answer, I'll ask the question anyway. Have you ever felt obligated to visit a family member and then felt guilty because you think you don't go and visit

them often enough? I think everybody's probably felt that at some point in their life. Well, here's an important point to remember. It's not so much the number of times you visit or even how long you stay. It's the certainty of contact. In other words, people like knowing that you're coming. They like the anticipation, particularly people who are sick or who don't get a lot of human interaction. The certainty of contact is incredibly important. So what does that tell you? Well, first of all, you should let people know as far in advance as you can that you're coming to visit because it means so much. Secondly, don't flake out.

In order to have certainty of contact, you need to have certainty of contact, which means you have to show up. And that is something you should know. We're on Twitter and LinkedIn and Facebook, and we publish other information, other intel that doesn't make it onto the show. We do publish it on social media. So if you like the show, you'll like us on social media. So follow us there as well.

I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Do you love Disney? Do you love Top Ten lists? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle.

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