Something You Should Know - How to Embrace Conflict and Fight Well & Why We Love to Live in Cities

Episode Date: April 15, 2019

Grocery stores have a lot of germs. For one thing there is a lot of raw meat and fish moving around in the store. Some of those germs can cause you and your family to get really sick. I begin this episode with some very important advice on how to protect yourself from this very real threat. http://www.menshealth.com/health/supermarket-safety Conflict can be ugly and messy. It can also be positive and productive, according the Liane Davey author of the book, The Good Fight (https://amzn.to/2YXKnwG). Liane joins me to explain how to have “productive conflict” that actually gets to a solution. Plus she reveals how to avoid unproductive conflict that does little more than to cause trouble and make things worse. Conflict is part of life. How we handle it is what matters.  Do you sleep in the fetal position? A lot of people do and it may be messing with your self-confidence. Listen as I explain how and why and how you can counteract the effects. https://www.businessinsider.com/amy-cuddy-advice-waking-up-right-2016-1 More than half of the world’s population lives in cities. Yet cities are full of problems: crime, high taxes, traffic, ridiculously high cost of housing and many more. Monica L. Smith, a professor of anthropology at UCLA and author of the book Cities: The First 6,000 Years https://amzn.to/2InT5yt) joins me to reveal why people love living in cities, why cities are a relatively new invention (6,000 years ago) and what the future holds for urban environments and the people who live there.  This Week's Sponsors -Ancestry. To get 20% off your Ancestry DNA test go to www.Ancestry.com/something -BetterHelp. Get help with a counselor you will love at www.BetterHelp.com/SYSK -Quip. Get your first refill pack free. Go to www.GetQuip.com/something -Skillshare. For 2 months free access to over 25,000 classes go to www.Skillshare.com/something -ADT. To get a secure smart home designed just for you go to www.ADT.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today on Something You Should Know, something you must hear before the next time you go to the grocery store. Then, understanding conflict and emotion so you can have better fights with better outcomes. Emotions in a conflict are just like pain. They're diagnostic, they're helpful. Oh, something's being injured here. And usually when people get either they're crying or they're yelling, it's because the person isn't feeling heard and they're not feeling understood.

Plus, there's a popular sleeping position that could be causing you harm and the fascinating story of cities. A lot of people claim to want to get out of the city and move to the country for a better life. But you know, for every person who says that, there are another million people clamoring to get in because the opportunities are greater than what you're going to find in the countryside. All this today on Something You Should Know. As a listener to Something You Should Know, I can only assume that you are someone who likes to learn about new and interesting things and bring more knowledge to work for you in your everyday life. I mean, that's kind of what Something You Should Know is all about. And so I want to invite you to listen to another podcast called TED Talks Daily.

Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks. Well, you see, TED Talks Daily is a podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday in less than 15 minutes. Join host Elise Hu. She goes beyond the headlines so you can hear about the big ideas shaping our future. Learn about things like sustainable fashion, embracing your entrepreneurial spirit,

the future of robotics, and so much more. Like I said, if you like this podcast, Something You Should Know, I'm pretty sure you're going to like TED Talks Daily. And you get TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers.

And a lot of that practical advice you can use in your life today, I use in my life every day. And in fact, we'll be using some of it later today when I go to the grocery store. As I've mentioned before, I like going grocery shopping. I like being in the grocery store. But as it turns out, the grocery store is crawling with germs. So knowing that, here is some great advice that I take to heart. Wipe and wait.

72% of shopping carts contain illness-inducing bacteria like E. coli. 72%. The bugs come from other shoppers who may have already had germs on their hand or picked them up after touching contaminated food products in the store. So before you grab a cart, take an antibacterial wipe and wipe over the cart's handle and then wait 20 seconds for it to dry. Double bag your meat. A Tennessee State University study says about 50% of poultry packages contain bacteria, including diarrhea-causing coliform and E. coli, on the outside. Plop one of those packages in your cart and you could spread

those bugs to other items in your cart. So put it in a plastic bag. That way you're protected. And clean your reusable bags. In a lot of places now, of course, we have to take reusable bags to the store and half of them contain nasty bacteria that can lead to diarrhea and vomiting, according to University of Arizona researchers. But 97% of people never clean their reusable grocery bags. And that is something you should know. It's hard to get through a day without some sort of conflict. Kids, co-workers, your spouse, your boss, store clerks, mother-in-law,

they're all potential sources of conflict for you. And most of us would probably rather avoid the conflict if possible. That seems like the better road to take. But is it? Actually, no, according to Leanne Davey. Leanne is a psychologist, speaker, and regular contributor to the Harvard Business Review, and she's author of the new book, The Good Fight. Hi, Leanne.

Hi, Mike. I'm thrilled to be here. So the idea of having a good fight scares a lot of people. There's no such thing as a good fight. A good fight is to have no fight at all. At least that's what many people believe. Yeah, so life creates conflict. Being a human, being in a relationship, you know, being on a soccer team, being a member of the PTA, whatever you do, and not to mention going to work every day, there is an endless stream of things that we end up in conflict about. It's totally natural. And the problem is if we try and avoid it, then that conflict gets worse. It escalates, it can get nasty. So conflict as a process to get to the other side of a difficult issue is a really good and really important thing.

And everybody has been through that, where a conflict has gotten much bigger than it had to be, and then somebody usually says, well, I wish I had said something sooner, and yet you didn't. And so now it's this big thing that blows up out of proportion. Yeah, so I use this term conflict debt, and I think about it kind of like credit card debt. So, you know, you buy that thing, and it's not that expensive, but if you don't pay it off and you keep carrying the balance over month to month to month, then that interest starts to become debilitating. So conflicts are like that.

The original thing we avoided wasn't so bad. But when we let the interest pile up and pile up, whew, it can get a bit overwhelming. So the same is true with our conflicts. And the problem is the interest we pay is that over time, if we haven't said anything, when we do raise it, then suddenly it's like, well, why didn't you say something sooner? And, you know, your credibility kind of goes down. So there's a big cost of not having conflict when it happens, but instead try to delay it. So everybody knows in their own particular instance why they didn't say something sooner, why they didn't deal with the conflict at the time, but in a more scientific approach way,

why do we avoid it? Why do we let it slide until later? Maybe it'll go away. What's going on in our head? Yeah, so there's a bit of biology to it, which is we are kind of tribe-based creatures. And if you didn't want to get voted out of the cave and eaten by the saber-toothed tiger, it was pretty important to get along. So we're biologically wired to get along with our in-group. And then we're socialized to think that conflict isn't polite. So I bet many of your listeners had a grandma who said, if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

And we learned to mind your own business or all these things that we were taught as kids that said that conflict isn't nice. It isn't polite. For me as a female, conflict certainly wasn't seen as ladylike. So there, you know, it's biological to begin with, but then we reinforce it. So there's a lot of things that are telling us and little voices in our heads telling us to zip it and to tough it out as opposed to making things better. You talk about productive and unproductive conflict. So can you explain the difference? The word that's most meaningful to me on unproductive conflict is when I'm mad at you for something or I resent you for something

and I bottle that up and I just live with that resentment. And Nelson Mandela had my favorite quote about resentment. He said, resentment is poison you swallow hoping someone else will die. And we do that in relationships all the time where we don't like the way we're being treated. And so we just get mad and resentful and indignant about how horrible you are. But that's not doing anything to the other person. All it's doing is making you feel crappy. So resentment is another really good reason why we don't want to have that unproductive conflict. We want to get it on the table and get to the other side of it.

And so what does that look like? And some examples might help here of what do you say? When do you say it? How do you say it so it doesn't get out of hand? Because I think that's a big concern people have is, if I say something, this is going to turn into a huge fight, and I don't want that. Yeah, so let's go through this in a couple parts. So let's start with what you do. More importantly than what you say is when you say it. And when you say it is before you get into a fight. So I call this the Valentine's Day effect. So if you think about it, I know a lot of people who have images in their mind of what the perfect Valentine's Day would be. And, you know, when they tell me, I'm like, all right, if that

sounds good to you, that's great. So they have these grand illusions of the perfect Valentine's Day, but they never tell their partner what's included. And they'll say things like, well, if she doesn't understand or he doesn't understand what that is, then if they don't understand me by now, then, you know, then it's just dot, dot, dot. They don't say what the then is. And then, of course, it doesn't work. They don't get that Valentine's day. And I say all you're doing is setting the person up to disappoint you.

So the best time to talk about what you want and what you need and what good looks like to you is before they disappoint you or do something different from that. So don't fall victim to the Valentine's day effect. If there's something you have in your head, whether that be, you know, here's what a fun night out would be for me. Here's what a good report would look like at work. Here's what I'm looking for in this. You know, what your real estate agent is, the kinds of houses you're going to take me to.

I would like you to take me to places like this, those sorts of things. Tell them ahead of time so that we don't have this Valentine's Day effect where we're just waiting for people to disappoint us. So that's one idea. The other idea is once something unpleasant starts to happen, when someone tells you something, an idea that you don't like, the problem is we tend to want to contradict them or tell them that's not true, that no way, that's not right. And instead of that, the secret is to actually, instead of invalidating them, we want to validate them. So if my husband comes home and we're talking about

a vacation and he said, I think we need to go back to the same resort we went to last year. What I want to say maybe is, oh, that's so boring. Who wants to go back to the exact same? I want to invalidate his point. But instead, what I should do is say, oh, so you want to go back to the same place again. Validate it. And it's amazing how as soon as you start a conversation that way, it won't start like a fight. It'll start as a conversation. And then you ask a question, you go, oh, what makes you want to go back to the same place again? Well, you know, so much of the hassle of going on vacation is planning everything. And if we go there, then I don't have to worry about planning everything. I already know. Oh, so, you know,

you really want to make sure that vacation is not more of a hassle than it's worth. Cool. Okay. You know, for me, I'm really thinking that, you know, vacation's about having some novel experiences and I want to do some stuff I haven't done before. So, you know, where do we go with that? So this technique of validating the person first, asking a question to show them that we want to understand where they're coming from, it will immediately not feel like a conflict. It'll feel like we're problem solving. We're problem solving. Where's the right place to go on vacation this year? And what's really cool is that when you validate someone first, the way we as humans are wired is once I hear you out, you will have a tremendous obligation to hear me out. So then when I say, for me, it's really about something novel.

And then what you can do is go, okay, so what we're looking for is a vacation that doesn't give us too much planning to do and can give us some new and novel experiences. All right. And then you've got a world of opportunities. You can go back to the same place and take different excursions. You can go to a different place but use a travel agent to take away all the hassle. And then you're problem solving and then it's not fighting. So that's a technique that really works 95% of the time. Validate them first, ask a question to show you're interested, and then you can sort of pivot

and share your perspective. And that's great if the person you're talking to is being reasonable, but I want to ask you, what about when the person is not being reasonable? I'm speaking with psychologist Leanne Davey. She is author of the book, The Good Fight. I've been talking for a while now on this podcast about the Quip toothbrush, and you've probably wondered, eh, come on, it's just a toothbrush. No. Quip is a better electric toothbrush. It's been created by dentists and designers. It has this sensitive sonic vibration that's gentle on your gums

because a lot of people just brush too hard and some electric toothbrushes are very abrasive. Not the Quip. And brush heads are automatically delivered on a dentist-recommended schedule every three months for just five dollars. Because three out of four people use bristles that are old and worn out and ineffective. I love the Quip toothbrush because it makes brushing easy and I know I'm brushing right. That's why I love Quip. And the Quip toothbrush is backed by over 20,000 dental professionals. Quip starts at just $25,

and if you go to getquip.com slash something right now, you get your first refill pack for free with a Quip electric toothbrush. That's your first refill pack free at getquip.com. There are times in everyone's life where something happens that interferes with your happiness or it prevents you from achieving your goals. And if that's happening to you, BetterHelp Online Counseling is there for you. I love this idea. BetterHelp offers licensed professional counselors who specialize in issues such as depression, stress, anxiety, relationships, grief, and so much more. You connect with your professional

counselor in a safe and private online environment. Anything you share is confidential, and it's so convenient. You can get help on your own time and at your own pace. You can schedule secure video or phone sessions. Plus, you can chat or text with your therapist as well. And if you're not happy with your counselor, you can get a new one at any time for no charge. Best of all, it's truly affordable.

And for something you should know, listeners, you can get 10% off your first month with the discount code SYSK. So why not get started today? Go to BetterHelp.com slash SYSK for something you should know.

You simply fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs and then get matched with a counselor you will love. BetterHelp.com slash S-Y-S-K. So, Leanne, what about when you're disagreeing with someone who's not being so reasonable? They're yelling and screaming and things are just going off the rails. Yeah, so it's really interesting. People tend to be afraid

of emotion. And one of the reasons that we avoid conflict is because we want to avoid emotion. And so I'm going to give you a different way of thinking about it. What if the emotion was useful and diagnostic and interesting? So I like to talk about seeing emotion in a conflict as exactly like feeling pain. So I have a bum shoulder at the moment. So when I give speeches, I tend to throw my hands up in the air and I'm a bit goofy and my shoulder will hurt. And what that is, is a really useful piece of information that Leanne, you're injuring yourself. Put your arm down. So you know what? Emotions in a conflict are just like pain.

They're diagnostic. They're helpful. Oh, something's being injured here. And usually when people get either they're crying or they're yelling or we're seeing that kind of negative emotion, it's because the person isn't feeling heard and they're not feeling understood. So if I'm facing somebody who is reacting in that way, I try and say, okay, so clearly something's going on for this person that I don't know about. It's probably linked to something that I couldn't even understand. And so what I do is I treat it like pain. I slow down. I go, hey, this seems like

something important. This seems like an important issue. What am I not getting? What am I not understanding? Or, you know, for me, this is just something where we have to figure out what to do. And, you know, I'm sensing that for you, this is a bigger deal. What don't I understand? What am I missing? You know, those kinds of questions. So the problem is we have all this baggage and bias about emotions. We think it's bad. We think it's unprofessional. We think it's unreasonable. And there's new neuroscience research that shows that we interpret feeling outcast by the group or feeling like we don't fit in or feeling like our ideas aren't good. We interpret that in the exact same place in the brain as if somebody bit us. It's like pain.

And so if somebody's reacting emotionally, just go, oh, you know, this is a painful issue for them. Something's not being, something's being injured. And if you can slow down a bit and show them that you're willing to understand what it's like for them, how they're experiencing it, you'll get back to that same thing of the person who had seemed unreasonable was actually not unreasonable. They just weren't being heard or they couldn't articulate what was going on for them. So don't think about emotion as unprofessional or inappropriate. Think of it as a really good clue. Uh-oh, something's being injured here, and I need to slow down and figure out what that is.

And if we figure out what that is, we'll probably be able to solve the problem. Do you ever lose your temper? Oh, of course, of course. And it's interesting. When I teach conflict skills to people and I tell them about the right words to say. And, you know, I go through a lot of that. I spend a lot of time on, you know, how to say it. And people say to me, oh, what if I screw up? I said, I screw up all the time because we're human. But in some ways, it's a great opportunity to build trust with people.

So when I lose my temper, I go back, not quickly, because it takes a little while before I calm down, but I go back and say, that did not go how I wanted it to go. Or that is not how I like to behave. I blew it. Can I have a do-over? Or this is, you know, I really wanted to hear you out about, you know, what you want the vacation to be like. And I just got so busy talking about what I wanted that I didn't spend the time hearing what you want. So can I have a do-over? Please. I'm going to zip it.

You tell me what this is about for you. And when you do that, first of all, you express your own vulnerability, which strengthens trust and is good for relationships. Secondly, you reinforce what good looks like. Hey, good was us listening to each other, not just telling each other what we always say. You can't communicate to someone. You can only communicate with them. So if you just went and communicated to somebody, go back and say, okay, I didn't hear your side of that. Let's try that again. So getting it wrong, when I lose my temper, I lose my temper with my kids. I lose my temper with my husband. I've lost temper with

coworkers and all those sorts of things. And when I tried to go to the PTA, I lost my temper too often. So I had to stop going to the PTA. But that one was just too big an ask for me. But I've found when you're willing to put your hand up and say, whoa, okay, my bad, that was not how I wanted to show up, people respect you more afterward, not less. Yeah, I mean, I've been in conflicts with people where it actually turned out to be a good thing because it, I don't know, it cleared the air.

When you come back later and say, I'm sorry, it went that way, somehow a bond gets formed that would not have gotten formed if that hadn't happened. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I think we fear this, right? We fear that they'll get emotional or we'll get emotional, and that's why we avoid conflict. So we sit with this poison of resentment, or we don't get the issue resolved. And if we just understood that maybe it will get emotional, and that's okay. You're human.

And if it gets emotional, just go back and say, you know. So if you cry at work, right, okay, God, I got into that conflict and I cried in front of my boss. The next day you just go and you say, I'm so grateful for your patience in talking me through that. I really appreciate that you were willing to hear how I was experiencing this. It's a great opportunity. And the boss goes, look what a great boss I am.

It's a great opportunity to strengthen your relationship. So that's a really, really important thing for people to remember. Even if it, you know, it's like, it's not that conflict is always going to be pretty, but the point is, even when it's not pretty, it's an opportunity to make the situation better and to improve the relationship and to reduce your stress level. Because once you're through the other side of it, you're like, well, okay, nothing to be stressed about now. Yeah, isn't that funny that you'll sit and dwell about a conflict and yet when it gets resolved, you never think about it again? Of course, then it's done. So it's just like that debt, right?

Once you pay it off, if you've got conflict debt, you're carrying that debt. Oh, and the interest you're paying on that. You're losing sleep. You're having to drive the long way around to your house to avoid seeing the guy down the street. All these things, these workarounds you're doing to avoid the conflict. And once you get to the other side of it, you're like, oh, well, okay, I'm sleeping again, and I'm getting to my house the direct way. So there's a lot that we take on to carry that conflict debt, where if we

would just pay it off, right? Okay, we got to have this conversation. Life gets so much easier. What about, though, a lot of what you're talking about sounds like taking the high road, that rather than get in the dirt and the mud and wrestle, you're taking a higher road. But sometimes you really get mad, and it's hard not to express that anger. And I guess this gets back to the emotion thing. But sometimes somebody's just being a real jerk jerk and you want to tell them off. Yeah. And that's, you know, sometimes I want to eat a Krispy Kreme donut too, right? And it tastes so good while it goes down. And then, you know, you're like, oh, can't get my jeans done up,

right? So yeah, yeah. And every once in a while, give yourself permission to just lose your stack. Like, yes, absolutely. But just understand you're going to then be in a hole and you've made your own life worse. You've made your life harder. And so, yeah, if you're willing to put in the hours on the treadmill to get rid of the Krispy Kreme later, okay. You know, some days though, I hope you decide I'm not going to eat that in the first place. I'm not going to. And I understand that, you know, I could say all these things, and it might make me feel good very briefly, but then I'm not going to be proud of myself. And carrying the weight around of not feeling proud of your behavior is pretty crappy. So, you know, where possible,

take the high road, it's worth it. Yeah. Well, I think you're right. I had an experience where I was just in a horrible mood. I was at a store. I was in this long line. It was taking forever. We finally get up to the cashier. He's probably pretty new at this. He's screwing everything up. And I got mad. I was very impatient with him. And I felt horrible. And I actually, two hours later, I drove back to the store and apologized to the guy. Yeah, which must have felt amazing. Yeah. And the look on his face was, oh, God, here he comes again. Well, you know what? I'll tell you, writing a book about this stuff is a really good accountability mechanism, because it's really hard.

So I've actually played with the opposite. So if you're in a restaurant and you know you have a wait staff who's just bumbling and getting everything wrong and things like that, occasionally I'll do a crazy big tip for that person and I'll write right on the receipt, like, you know, I think you're having a hard day, hang in, whatever. And then all of a sudden, I feel so good because I've been a waitress. And I know that sometimes it all just goes south and it's not even necessarily your fault. So in those moments where you want to get frustrated with someone else or whatever, sometimes it's easier rather than even just being neutral. Sometimes it's easier to click over to the other side and just be really generous. Just, right, be that person that gives them the big smile and gives them the look that says, it's okay, take a breath, right? Take a sec, collect your thoughts. And then you get it paid back so fast because they just, their eyes looking like,

thank you. Right, right. Right. So, you know, one of the other things is in that moment where you feel that amygdala hijack, where we feel that, right, my palms are sweating and my heart is racing and I'm so frustrated, you know, every once in a while, try taking the complete opposite tack and just be, you know, sickly sweet and just so generous. And, you know, that'll make the whole rest of your day better. And that becomes a virtuous cycle. Well, there isn't a person alive who couldn't use your advice. This is really good stuff. Leanne Davey has been my guest. She's a psychologist, speaker, contributor to the Harvard

Business Review, and author of the book, The Good Fight. You'll find a link to her book in the show notes. Thank you, Leanne. I appreciate it. My pleasure. At some point in your life, you've had to wonder to yourself, who am I really? Where did I come from? Well, why not get the real story? You can with the Ancestry DNA test. I did. Ancestry connects you to the places in the world where your story started using precise geographic detail and historical insights. You can

actually trace your ancestors journeys over time and follow how and why your family moved from place to place. They've combined DNA results with over a hundred million family trees and billions of records to give you more insights into your genealogy and origins. I took the Ancestry DNA test and got my results back, went online, and saw my real story unfold before my eyes. It was so cool. I saw who my ancestors were, where they came from, and I've been building my family tree. It's fascinating to do, and you can do it too.

Go to Ancestry.com slash something today for 20% off your Ancestry DNA kit. That's Ancestry.com slash something for 20% off your Ancestry DNA kit. Ancestry.com slash something. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more.

A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious,

you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about

a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works

to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed, critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The

Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, join me you get your podcasts. take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our Lister poll results from But Am I Wrong? And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. In the United States today, over 80% of us live in cities, or what could be described as urban areas. Just over half the entire world's population lives in cities.

But 6,000 years ago, no one lived in a city. They didn't really exist. In many urban areas today, there are a lot of problems that result from so many people living so close together in a city. And yet people stay. They not only stay, but people keep coming in. So what is it about cities and the people who live in them? Monica L. Smith has some great insight into this. She's a professor of anthropology at UCLA and author of the book Cities, The First 6,000 Years. Hi, Monica. So what is it about cities that is so particularly fascinating to you?

The thing about cities is that oftentimes, you know, if you're in an ancient city or a modern one, you almost do a little bit of a double take because the same things that we're used to in modern cities, you know, that sense of busyness, but also the spatial layouts of plazas and streets and crowded neighborhoods and elite houses and so on. We see those in modern-day cities, but we also see them in ancient cities. So this pattern of urbanism that people have had for the last 6,000 years is something that we can see both in archaeological and in contemporary examples. When you look at cities and where they're located, is it readily apparent that, okay, this city's here because, well, there's a river here, or, you know, this made a good port, or this is the gateway to something? Or do cities crop up because people just stop and say, well, you know, let's start a city here? You know, archaeologically, that is one of the huge questions because we look at the plethora of cities that we see in many parts of the world, and we kind of scratch our

heads and say, why did the city come up in this spot? Because sometimes it's a place that is vulnerable to floods. Sometimes it's a place that's vulnerable to cyclones or hurricanes or earthquakes. And we think to ourselves, you know, what an illogical place to put a city. But then we realize that we also have places like New Orleans, for example, that are also illogical. And so it seems to me that there is something that people start with, like a really great idea, maybe a mining site, maybe a port site, maybe a trade place. And once people start to come into that domain, and they have this energy and synergy of interaction, even if there's some disaster that hits like a plague or a typhoon, well, they just sort of clean up the mess and start over

again. Well, when you look at some cities, you do have to scratch your head and wonder, well, why here? I mean, some big cities are in places where the weather's bad or they're prone to natural disasters. And you wonder, well, why put the city here when you could put it somewhere really nice? It's challenges that bring people in. You know, the very loveliest parts of the world are places that don't actually have a whole lot of cities in them. If you think of, for example, Stonehenge. Stonehenge is in a lovely location. It's lush.

There's wonderful agricultural potential, and so on. And people certainly gravitated towards it because they built Stonehenge and turned it into a ritual place, but they never turned it into a city. to because you know when people talk about where they want to live they you know you often hear about getting out of the city going to the country get so why do people go there in the first place if they'd really rather be somewhere else that's a great modern-day question that also is something that helps us to understand archaeological examples because we know that cities are bad for your health we know that for modern, where we have things like pollution, and when there's not good infrastructure, there's, you know, disease transmission. But we also know that that's true for ancient cities as well. You know, the ancient city of Rome was constantly plagued by

malaria. We know from looking at gravestones that there was a kind of death season in ancient Rome. You know, the late summer and the early fall was a time when a lot of people got carried off. This was surely not a secret to other people migrating into the area. They knew that they were taking a risk going in, but there were so many amazing opportunities, not only for employment, but also for entertainment and for education. And those are exactly the same calculations that we make today. We want to partake of all of those urban opportunities. And we just accept that there are going to be some things about cities that we really dislike, like traffic. It also seems that as cities grow, so does crime, so do taxes, so does congestion.

Have we seen with cities that where at some point the bad outweighs the good and people leave? Well, you know, it's a common urban trope nowadays, especially in wealthy enclaves, to have people say, oh, I'm going to give up my life in this office job and I'm going to go farm goats in Vermont. But, you know, for every person who says that, there are another million people clamoring to get in. And they come in because the opportunities are greater than what you're going to find in the countryside. And the opportunities for enjoyment are also greater. Think about where museums are. Think about where most universities are. Think about where major league sports teams are. They are all associated with cities because there's a critical mass of people to be able to

partake and enjoy those opportunities. One thing technology has allowed people to do is to not have to be in a city. I mean, what I do, I could do anywhere. And that's true of a lot of jobs now that maybe wasn't true before. And so is that ability to not have to be in a city actually taking a toll or having an effect on population growth or decrease in urban areas? In some ways, yes. But much of the commuting, you know, the telecommuting is maybe one day a week. And another sign that despite our digital capacity to be spread out everywhere, we are still very much tied into the urban form is to look at companies like Facebook and Google that are digital companies, they could be anywhere. They

could be in places where land is cheap. They could be in places where all they need is connectivity. But look at where they're located. They want to be right there in the heart of downtown San Francisco. They want to be in Los Angeles. We have something that's called Silicon Beach, where you have people who are coming in for tech jobs. And so companies realize that people want to have all the amenities beyond just the job, you know, they want to be in a place that's exciting, especially young people. When we think about the demographics of who's moving into cities, and who's grousing about it. Most of the young people, most people in their 20s and 30s are completely willing to trade off living in a tiny apartment for being right there in the beating heart of the city.

They might change their calculation a little bit once they have kids or they want to own property and things like that. But even so, we're seeing a lot of people choosing to raise their families in cities. And we even see retirees moving into cities because there are all these services. You can get people delivering things to you. You can easily go out for entertainment. So despite the fact that people grouse about the city, they have fit into them in ways that make them difficult to leave.

Yeah, well, it's interesting. It also seems to be a lot of personal preference and maybe where you grew up and what your history is, because I talk to people who live and work in, say, New York City. And I love New York City, but I could never live there or probably work there because that's just not for me. I just don't like that, having to do that every day. New York to me is a great place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there. So that's just my preference. And I've never want to live there. So that's just my preference. And I've never

worked or lived there. But I know other people who say, oh, I couldn't live anywhere else. That's right. I've been lucky enough to live in New York briefly a couple of times. And I now understand how people say that. And, you know, people in Hong Kong say the same thing or Singapore or Delhi. I mean, all over the world, people feel a part of a place, even if it drives them crazy. And that has on balance been the thing that is increasing the urban population. You know, it used to be 6,000 years ago, there were no cities anywhere on the planet. And now more than half of the world's population lives in an urban environment. And that proportion is growing. That's amazing to me that it is because of what we just talked about of

industries, a lot of companies can be anywhere now. And like the advertising industry is still pretty much based in New York, Madison Avenue, but those companies for the most part could probably be anywhere. Exactly. You know, they could set up their own kind of utopian communities. They could buy up entire counties of rural parts of the U.S. or even other countries and set up, you know, an independent campus and have all the facilities that they want. But they don't have to do that because if they just buy a chunk of Manhattan or San Francisco or Sydney or Tokyo real estate, guess what? They have all of those features built right into the city. So it becomes very efficient for them to

locate to an urban environment where they know that all of that, you know, energizing vibe that people want is not something that they have to create. They just buy right into it. Right. Well, it almost seems like, you know, businesses are in cities because they think that's where the people are. And people go to cities because that's where the businesses are. So it's a self-perpetuating environment. Exactly. And cities are also where you get critical masses that allow for innovation, not only in technology and in business, but also think about medicine. When we think about medical interventions and new technologies and where are the very best doctors for specialized medical care,

they are associated with cities because you might have a disease that's very rare, but in an urban population of 5 or 10 or 20 million, you will have enough people who need those services to be able to develop cutting-edge treatments that then become attractive for people to come from other places and use those opportunities. But sometimes cities don't thrive. They go the other way. I'm thinking of a city like Detroit, for example.

I think most people would agree has seen better days. So sometimes something happens that makes a city stop thriving, people stop coming, and it goes in the other direction. You know, speaking archaeologically, this is something that we certainly see in the archaeological record. So one of the sites that's often called among the world's first cities is a site called Tel Brach. And now it's an archaeological site. There is nobody living there. And we have many other cities that are known archaeologically that don't have any populations in them anymore. So this is why the concept of collapse or abandonment has come into our understanding of archaeological cities because there are sites where people lived very successfully

for hundreds of years, and then they just didn't live there anymore. So we naturally ask ourselves, is there a breaking point for cities? Are there circumstances in which cities become completely unviable? I think that when we start to look at it in more broad terms, those people move out of a place that's no longer viable, you know, maybe a major flood or maybe a major earthquake, but they move to places that are close by where they can continue an urban lifestyle and just in a new place.

So I'll give you an example from our own archaeological research that we've been conducting with my colleague, Rabi Mohanty, from Deccan College in India. We've been working at an ancient city, about 2,000 years old. And after about the 4th or 5th century AD, the city no longer seems to have been populated. But there was a new ritual center that started up about two kilometers away. So, you know, an easy walk, about a mile and a half. And that's where the population seemed to go. So it wasn't as though you had a complete abandonment of the settlement idea. You just had a shift from one place to another. Maybe that's also the way we can think about a place like Detroit.

So, you know, the inner part of Detroit is definitely undergoing a lot of stress, but the suburbs seem to be doing just fine. It's very difficult to kill off a modern city. In fact, the only one that I think we can think of is the city that was abandoned because of Chernobyl. Many other cities have taken a huge hit. So think about Tokyo in World War II. Think about New Orleans more or less continuously up into modern times with Katrina.

Think about Bam. It's a city in Iran that was almost completely devastated by an earthquake. And yet, they also, despite all logic, have sprung back to life. Typically, when large parts of an industry locate in one spot, you know, the advertising industry is in New York City on Madison Avenue. Silicon Valley is where a lot of tech companies are. What causes industries to migrate to one spot? Is it a follow the leader thing? Or is there something about those locations that attract those businesses? Or what brings them in? You know, businesses respond to tax incentives, they respond to zoning laws, they respond to

configurations of real estate that are already there. And while we might think of that as being a kind of exotic high-end way of thinking about industry, there are other ways in which this kind of bizarre concept, you know, you think about like an auto mall, right? What's the logic of an auto mall? Why does every car manufacturer want to be in competition right next door to another car manufacturer? Well, it's because when people go to that zone, they might not buy a Maserati or a Toyota, but they're in the market for something. So by having people all concentrated selling the same thing in the same place, they elevate the chances that they'll get at least some customers. So if you have tech industries that are all located in a single place, whether it's Singapore or Silicon Beach or someplace else, they're taking advantage of the fact that they can maybe try to poach other employees.

They're taking advantage of the fact that people who are interested in a certain kind of job have that as a goal. So they are using that competition not as something to be scared of, but as a kind of leverage to increase their market share and to increase the skill level of their employees. I know there are attempts to lure businesses and people out of the city. Having myself grown up in

Connecticut, I remember some years ago when Stanford, Connecticut was trying to lure businesses out of Manhattan with some success with the lure of, you know of bigger homes and a better lifestyle than the inner-city lifestyle. And General Telephone moved their corporate headquarters to Stamford, and General Electric moved their corporate headquarters to Fairfield, Connecticut, where I grew up. And I wonder, how successful is that typically? There was no mass exodus of businesses out of Manhattan to Stanford, but some people, I guess, came. This is the difference between what people say they want

and what they actually want. You know, they might say that they want, oh, they want a bigger house or they want lower taxes and so on. But then they go out to those places and they realize that what they really want is 57 different kinds of pizza. And, you know, the chance to eat, you know, Vietnamese-Mexican fusion. You know, it's all those little intangibles that are not necessarily found on a questionnaire, but that what makes, you know, urban life particularly rich and distinct and exciting.

Yeah. Well, I always had the sense that the answer to the question that I just asked you was as much as Stanford, Connecticut offered people and industries, it still wasn't New York. It's not New York. Right. Right. And people in Japan will say, you know, it's not Tokyo. And people in India will say, oh, you know, it's not Delhi. People in England will say, well, it's not London. There is something about those biggest, big, big urban areas that have a kind of

cachet and prestige. And just by living there, you can sort of feel like you've made it, right? If you are living in London or if you have a child who's living in London, you know, that's a marker of their success. Even if they're living in a really cramped place, you can still say, oh, you know, my kid's living in London and, you know, working in the financial industry. You know, the realities of that might be pretty stretched thin, but the appearance is certainly wonderful. It's interesting, you know, you said very early

in this conversation about how so many people talk about, you know, maybe leaving the city, getting out of the rat race, and going to raise goats in Vermont. But obviously not many people do that, otherwise there would be big cities in Vermont of goat raisers, I guess. And there aren't. There are lots of small towns in Vermont, but there's not a lot of big cities. So cities are still attractive to people, and I guess they're not going anywhere anytime soon. Monica Smith has been my guest. She is an anthropologist and she's author of the book Cities, The First 6,000 Years. You'll find a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes for this episode. Thank you, Monica. Thanks for being here.

Great. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. What could be more natural than curling up and sleeping in the fetal position? I like that. And yet doing so may be sapping your self-confidence. Harvard psychologist Amy Cuddy studied this and found that sleeping with your knees clenched tight against your chest can actually cause you to wake up feeling stressed out. And here's why.

By sleeping all curled up, you're actually sending a subtle signal to your brain that your body is under attack. But if you open up your posture in bed, you will see an immediate improvement in your daily confidence levels and happiness. I know for me, I sleep in that position a lot of the time automatically, and I'm asleep when I do it, so there's not much I could do to undo that. But according to Amy Cuddy, if you just stretch your body as wide as possible when you wake up with your arms over your head and your toes pointed, that can make all the difference in your day. And that is something you should know. This podcast is on Twitter and you are invited to check us out and follow us. You can find us at something YSK at something YSK. I'm Micah Ruthers.

Thanks for listening today to something you should know. Do you love Disney? Do you love top 10 lists? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. The parks, the movies, the music, the food, the lore. There is nothing we don't cover on our show. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney themed games,

and fun facts you didn't know you needed. I had Danielle and Megan record some answers to seemingly meaningless questions. I asked Danielle, what insect song is typically higher-pitched in hotter temperatures and lower-pitched in cooler temperatures? You got this. No, I didn't.

Don't believe that. About a witch coming true? Well, I didn't either. Of course, I'm just a cicada. I'm crying. I'm so a cicada. I'm crying. I'm so sorry. You win that one. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic,

check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Contained herein are the heresies of Rudolf Puntwine, erstwhile monk turned traveling medical investigator. Join me as I study the secrets of the divine plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth that ours is not a loving God and we are not its favored children. The Heresies of Rudolf Buntwine,

wherever podcasts are available.