Something You Should Know - How to Get Other People to Change & The Science in Everyday Life

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Starting point is 00:00:17 You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, the problem with listening to music on headphones and how to solve it. Then, can you really change other people, sometimes, if you use the right process. There is no point in this process where I am telling her what to do or giving her advice. I'm engaging with her in thinking about it.

Starting point is 00:00:56 Always keep her in control. It's her change. It's her choice. Then, you've heard that having a pet is good for your health. So how does that work exactly? An interesting science behind everyday life experiences, like washing your hands, intermittent fasting and the placebo effect. The placebo effect is one of the most important effects in medicine. One thing though is that the placebo effect does not cure any disease.

Starting point is 00:01:21 It just allows you to perceive the symptoms in a more acceptable fashion. All this today on Something You Should Know. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like Something You Should Know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman

Starting point is 00:01:56 who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back. And in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed, critical thinker.

Starting point is 00:02:31 Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers.

Starting point is 00:02:56 Hey there, welcome to Something You Should Know. When you listen to music, there's a pretty good chance that you listen on headphones or earbuds. I think I, whenever I listen to music, practically, I'm listening on headphones or earbuds. And the question is, does listening to music on headphones or earbuds cause hearing loss? Well, it does for a lot of people. You see, according to experts at Harvard, regardless of the source of the sound, hearing loss is the result of three factors. Volume of sound, the duration of the sound, and how far away the source of the sound is from your ears.

Starting point is 00:03:41 Well, if you're listening to music on headphones, the volume can be pretty loud, the duration can be pretty long, and it would be hard to be any closer to your ear than headphones get. So you see the problem. There's an additional issue. Portable music devices have updated over the years to adapt to higher qualities of digital sound. With old audio devices, when the sound got too loud, the music didn't sound right. The bass would often distort and it would just sound horrible in your ear, so you would naturally lower the volume.

Starting point is 00:04:12 But now, with digital sound, you can turn up the volume and it doesn't distort, so there's a tendency to turn up the volume. Just be aware that listening to loud music for long periods of time on headphones or earbuds will take a toll on your hearing. It pretty much has to. And that is something you should know. I'm sure you've heard the common wisdom that you cannot change other people. That generally people don't change. And if they do change, they have to change

Starting point is 00:04:45 themselves. That trying to change other people is a waste of time. Well, meet someone who disagrees with that. Peter Bregman. Peter is a well-respected consultant and coach who has authored several books, one of which is called You Can Change Other People. And as he'll explain, it's not about manipulating people, and, well, I'll let him explain it. Hi, Peter. Welcome to Something You Should Know. Thanks so much for having me, Michael. It's great to be here. So since there is this common belief that you cannot change other people, explain why you can and why you would and why you'd want to,

Starting point is 00:05:24 and what's the point of all of this? You can change other people. It's just that the way we try to change other people doesn't work because we're doing and saying the wrong things and we're actually creating resistance. People don't resist change. They resist being changed. And so I change all the time. But if you try to change me, forget it. I'm going to fight because that's my loss of control. So we have to change people in ways that doesn't elicit the kind of resistance we end up fighting against. It also seems, though, that one of the reasons people don't change is that when you try to change somebody, you're trying to change them to fit your needs and wants and desires. It may have nothing to do with them. You want them to do

Starting point is 00:06:09 what you want to do. Exactly. And this process is not a magic manipulative process where I'm going to give you three words to say and people will instantly hypnotically change. It does drastically increase your hit rate in helping people change, but it is ultimately about them. So most often we want people to change, right? Because there's something we're frustrated about, but that frustration is coming out of a place of care. Usually when you're frustrated or angry about something, it's because you care deeply about something. And almost always the thing you care about is in your mutual interest as well as their individual interest, but it's not being framed that way

Starting point is 00:06:51 at all because you're coming off as sort of a critic of their behavior as opposed to an ally working with them. And so we've been talking so far in kind of the abstract. Can you give me an example of how you would change somebody so I get a better sense of what you're talking about? Sure. And you know what I'll do? I'll give you an example that fits your category of something where I want someone to change, but they don't necessarily want to change. And I'll up the ante and I'll make it my, my daughter who's 19. Right. So like, so now I want to change one of my kids. You know, one day I went downstairs in the morning and I found her eating a chocolate chip cookie and for breakfast. And she looked up at me with this guilty expression and she said, yeah, this is the last one. I stayed up till four o'clock in the

Starting point is 00:07:44 morning and baked a plate, you know, baked a sheet of chocolate chip cookies and ate them all. And, you know, my instinct is to immediately criticize, like to be like, what are you thinking? Like, you don't want, you know, you told me you want to lose a little bit of weight and you're, this is how you're doing it. And like, seriously, chocolate chip cookies, is this what I've taught you? Chocolate chip cookies in the morning for breakfast? But I immediately shortcut that process because I knew that that would instigate a resistance, denial. Like, you know, when we criticize someone, we come at them, or even when we give feedback to someone,

Starting point is 00:08:23 we're eliciting their shame. We're telling them there's something you're doing that I'm pointing out that's bad. And people will do almost anything to avoid shame. So what do we do? We go into either denial or defensiveness, because those are the easiest ways to avoid, which is to say, I'm not doing it, or I don't even know what you're talking about. And then that's a non-starter conversation, because now we're in a conflict. I don't want to be in a conflict. I'm her ally, right? And so what I said instead, I followed

Starting point is 00:08:51 the first step in the four-step process is to shift from critic to ally. And we have a formula for doing that, which is three steps, which is empathize, which is express confidence, and ask permission because it always has to be up to them. So I said, hey, I totally get you eating a plate full of cookies at 4 a.m. when you're exhausted and especially your cookies are awesome. Like there's no way I wouldn't have eaten them, but I would have just joined you. I'm glad I wasn't up at four o'clock in the morning. So I totally get it. And I also can see the guilt in your face and how frustrating that must feel. I also know that you can make different decisions and do it differently if you want, because I've seen you do that in the past

Starting point is 00:09:33 also. And do you want to think about this together? Do you want to think this through together? And so it's express empathy, express confidence, and then ask permission to engage in the conversation. That's the first step. And so it would seem that if the answer is no, if permission is not granted, that's pretty much the end of that. And in the case of my daughter, which is why I brought this particular example up, in the case of my daughter, she said, no, I don't want to talk about it. And this is what's really important. That's her call. So I said, okay, no problem. And then I said, if you ever want to talk about it, I'm happy to talk about it with you. But I gave her the power. Later that afternoon, she came back to me and she,

Starting point is 00:10:18 you know, with the confidence that it was up to her to say, hey, and a little distance from the situation and from her own shame around it and said, hey, can we talk about it? I kind of do want to talk about it with you, but I want to stop. Whenever I want to stop, you have to stop. And I said, that's fine. You're totally in control of this. This is for you. The second step is to identify an energizing outcome. So when there's a problem, when we're giving someone feedback, when we're telling them we want them to change, it's often de-energizing. We're basically telling them this thing they're doing is bad. People don't like to sink into problems. People get very narrow-minded around problems. Their energy gets sucked out.

Starting point is 00:10:59 So the first thing you do is you say, what is the outcome you want that would actually be exciting to you? So that's step two. The negation of the problem, meaning if the outcome were just, I don't want this problem, it's, I don't want to eat so much sugar, right? That's not very inspiring. So my next question is, for the sake of what? What do you hope not eating sugar will give you? The answer became, I'm an athlete and I want to think and act like an athlete. I'm a skier. I'm an ice skater. I want to do a double axle. I need the right strength to weight ratio to do that. So think about how much more inspiring it is to have an outcome that says, I want to act and be an athlete as opposed to, I want to stop eating sugar. One is just depressing and the other is sort of exciting.

Starting point is 00:11:52 So, okay. So now that's step two. So we've got this energizing outcome. So step three is what is the opportunity that's hidden in the problem? Because we still have a problem. It's great that you want to be an athlete, but you still have this problem of eating too much sugar. So then the question is, what's the opportunity there? And after asking certain questions, we get to the point that actually the reason I'm eating that sugar is because I'm exhausted. And in this particular case, it was four in the morning and I was exhausted, but in general, I work myself too hard. I push myself so hard and sugar gives me this burst of energy. Well, all right. That's interesting. So the opportunity that you find hidden in the problem of eating too much sugar is rest. It's like, I need to rest.

Starting point is 00:12:43 And by the way, an athlete, like probably the most important thing that you can do for yourself as an athlete is to rest. So now we've got this outcome of an athlete and we've got the opportunity, which is I need to find more rest. When I am yearning for sugar, that is a sign that I'm overtired and that I need to rest and I need to build rest into my life and I need to build rest into my schedule. And then that, once we figure that out, now we're up to the fourth step, which is to plan. Specifically, what am I going to do? By when? How am I going to do it? And that plan is an experiment. So it doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to be right. We don't

Starting point is 00:13:25 necessarily need to know that you will solve this 100% this week, but we want to know that you can choose some action that you can do that will reflect movement towards the solution, towards the outcome that you want to achieve. So clearly in a situation like that, the person you're trying to change has to value what you have to say. In this case, your daughter obviously is going to value what her father has to say, but that isn't always the case. People have varying feelings about the people in their life who are trying to change them and may not respect what they have to say or advice they have to offer. So here's the thing. There is no point in this process where I am telling her what to do or giving her advice.

Starting point is 00:14:12 I'm engaging with her in thinking about it and asking certain questions that always keep her in control. It's her change. It's her choice. What about the momentum of this? It seems like you could have this conversation with your daughter, but a week later, there might be another plate of cookies again. Exactly. So it's a great point, Michael. And that's why step four

Starting point is 00:14:38 is the plan that says, I'm confident that I'm going to follow through on this, but it's not necessarily going to solve the whole thing. It's an experiment. I don't know if I'm going to follow through on this, but it's not necessarily going to solve the whole thing. It's an experiment. I don't know if it's going to work or not. I just care that you're going to follow through on something that looks a little different. Let's get together again in a week and see how it's going. No shame with failure. That's just part of the process. We're scientists here. We're experimenting. We don't know what the solution is about how to get better as opposed to just, you know, where we started, which was me criticizing you. What about though, when you're in a situation with someone and let's just change the nature

Starting point is 00:15:15 of the conversation, you walk in your daughter's eating the last cookie of this plate of cookies that she's been up till, till four in the morning and she doesn't see a problem with it. Why don't you just get off her back? So I think that that is absolutely her choice in a sense. This will not work with everybody in every situation because in order for people to change, they need four things. They need ownership. They need independent capability. They need emotional courage. And they need resilience, future-proofing when it gets hard. They need those four things.

Starting point is 00:15:53 Emotional courage is the willingness to feel hard things. We could build all of those things. But if ultimately she says, I don't care. I'm happy with eating those cookies. I don't really care what my weight is. I'm not so interested in being an athlete. I don't really care. I'm happy with eating those cookies. I don't really care what my weight is. I'm not so interested in being an athlete. I don't really care. I'm good. So you have to realize that when you want other people to change and you want to help them change, you show up as an ally to support them, but it's not going to be a, and you could predispose them to it. You can open them to the possibility of making the change.

Starting point is 00:16:27 You could support them in making the change. You could give them ideas and ways of approaching it. But ultimately, it's going to be their call if they decide they don't want to. I'm speaking with Peter Bregman, and we're talking about how to change other people. Peter is a well-respected consultant and coach and author, and the name of his book is You Can Change Other People. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce.

Starting point is 00:16:59 That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla So excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared.

Starting point is 00:17:36 It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your

Starting point is 00:18:18 podcasts. So Peter, so far we've used this example of you and your daughter, but that kind of relationship is a very close relationship. And as your daughter, she respects you and and cares about what you think, I imagine. So what about, though, in a work situation where you've got somebody who needs to change? Maybe they're a member of the team and but they don't see a problem. They're hard to align with and be an ally for to solve a problem if they don't see the problem. So, and Alan Mulally, who was the CEO of Ford for the turnaround in 2008, and before then he was the CEO of Boeing during September 11th, I mean, he's an unbelievable leader. And he was amazing at this. Whereas what he would do is he would say, these are the standards. And by the way, when he, just to give you an example, when he turned around Ford, Ford was losing billions and he turned it around so they were making billions. And this was during the recession when everybody else was taking bailouts.

Starting point is 00:19:31 And he made that turnaround with essentially exactly the same team. There was a turnover of one person, but otherwise the same 16 people who were driving Ford into the ground rescued Ford, right? So he changed them. He changed what they were doing. And he had a view of creating a certain set of boundaries. This is how we act on the team. These are my expectations. And if someone wasn't fulfilling their expectations, he would say to them, that's okay. That's really your call. It's your choice whether you do this or not. There's nothing wrong with you for deciding to act differently than I'm stating that we're going to act. But you just can't do that here. I will help you leave well. It's your call. And the one person who left, he had this conversation with and they left.

Starting point is 00:20:22 Another person he had this conversation with and they decided to stay and change. But when you're working in a system, when you're working in a team, it is completely valid to set up clear standards of how we operate and hold people to it and then support them in changing if they want to. And if they don't change, then that's okay too, but there may not be a place for them on the team. I wonder what it is that if people want to change, why they need somebody else to help them change, why they need that ally, what happens there that people just don't do it on their own? I love that you asked that question. The people, the clients that I work with are not remedial. I'm working with the top CEOs in the top companies.

Starting point is 00:21:12 They are incredibly successful people. They don't, you know, they're not people with tons of problems. Then the question is, well, why do they need me? And the answer is when you are stuck in a problem or stuck in a rut or stuck in a problem or a habit or a challenge that you're not getting over, you cannot think your way out of it with your current capability because you're in it. If you're struggling in water, think of if you're drowning in water and you can't swim, like you still need an arm to reach out and pull you out of the water. That arm is really important. So you don't have to be a brilliant person with all of the solutions already to help people. You just have to help them through a process where a different mind is thinking about their problem with them and

Starting point is 00:22:04 helps them to see things they can't see otherwise. Yeah. Well, that makes perfect sense that, you know, you're too close to the problem. It's your problem. It's always easier to help other people. It's always easier to solve somebody else's problem than your own. A hundred percent. And I, I, that's true for me. Like I've been, you know, I've honed this process over 30 years of doing this, and I still need someone to think through the problems with me. I can't think, even though I know the process better than anybody, I still need someone to help me through it. How do you start this process? How do you approach someone who you would like to see change

Starting point is 00:22:41 and get them to buy into this? So the most important step, the sort of turning the light on step is that first step of shifting from a critic to an ally. So when you really shift from this sense of, I care about you and I care about this and I'm not coming at this from anger or frustration, but I'm coming at this as someone who wants to help if it's helpful to you. If it's not helpful to you, it's not a problem either. That approach as an ally versus a critic is the thing that switches, you know, kind of switches the light to say, yeah, I have the control and I'd be willing to talk about it. It certainly puts your defenses down, I guess, because if somebody comes to you as a critic,

Starting point is 00:23:30 you get defensive and off we go. But this way, there's nothing to be defensive over. Yeah. And if they say no, they don't want to talk about it with you. Your acceptance of that no reinforces that they have the control. And what they realize, what they know, and what often happens is they will then come back to you, like I described with my daughter, because you're not threatening to them anymore. Like something has changed and they know, well, you know what? I really do want to get better at this. And actually here's someone who was willing to talk to me about it. They're probably my best bet. And I didn't feel judged by them. Well, yeah, that's a kind of a good way to feather the nest there and make it so that

Starting point is 00:24:10 that conversation goes so much better. But I think you have to be very careful not to slip back into critic once the conversation starts. Seems like that would be very easy to do if you're not careful. 100%. 100%. It is very, very tempting. You know, you really have to keep reminding yourself, I'm here in support of them. It's not about me. I'm here in support of them. And yeah, that's really critical. But it does get back to the idea that, the idea that you can't change people who don't want to be changed.

Starting point is 00:24:47 You can't solve a problem that the person doesn't think exists. Yeah. And I think the real focus then is to sort of say, what is that outcome that we're trying to go to? So when you shift to the outcome and you're no longer talking about the problem, then you're in a more interesting, positive, engaged conversation. It's actually one of the things I always suggest to leaders that I'm coaching, which is if you're disappointed with someone's behavior and they've made a big mistake,

Starting point is 00:25:20 if you go back and say, what were were you thinking what were you thinking in this when you decided to do this that is a setup for a disaster of a conversation and the reason is because they're going to tell you what they were thinking it obviously wasn't smart thinking but they're going to tell you what they were thinking they're going to answer your question and that's going to sound defensive and you're going to see the holes in it because it obviously didn't work and then you're going to get mad and then they're going to get defensive and it's just going to go back. And instead, I always suggest you say, instead of saying, you know, what, what were you thinking or what you say, what would you do differently next time? So now you've gone from a defensive, shameful conversation to one of hope and opportunity

Starting point is 00:26:01 and, you know, energy. When I think about trying to get someone else to change, I've always thought of it more of as a, you know, I'm right, you're wrong kind of problem, that you need to do this because I, I guess, because I said so. And what you're talking about is a very different approach that aligns the parties and probably has a lot better chance of success. Peter Bregman has been my guest. He is a consultant and coach and author. The name of his book is You Can Change Other People, and you can find a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Thank you, Peter. Appreciate the insight. Excellent. A lot of fun, Michael. Thanks so much. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, Excellent. A lot of fun, Michael. Thanks so much. is for rabbit holes, Disney themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed,

Starting point is 00:27:09 but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes

Starting point is 00:27:32 on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong. And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture.

Starting point is 00:27:44 Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Science is part of pretty much everything you do all day long. We know, for example, there is science behind why we wash our hands. But have you ever wondered who first thought that hand washing would be a good thing to do to help with health and hygiene? Or the science of placebos and how they work? Or the science of aging?

Starting point is 00:28:22 Or the science of anti-aging? Is that a real science? Science is everywhere, and sometimes what we believe about science may not always be accurate. So Joe Schwartz decided to clear up some of the science of everyday life. Joe is director of McGill University's Office for Science and Society, and author of a book called Science Goes Viral, Captivating Accounts of Science in Everyday Life. Hi, Joe, welcome to Something You Should Know. Hi.

Starting point is 00:28:53 So let's start with hand washing, because I actually have wondered, well, when did that start? Somebody must have said, you know, washing our hands would keep us healthier. But who? And you say that it was a Hungarian doctor named Ignaz Semmelweis who first suggested the idea. So let's start with that story. All right. Well, you know, before the germ theory really takes us back to Louis Pasteur, people had absolutely no idea about microbes and certainly no idea that they might cause disease. I mean, if you couldn't even see these things, you couldn't imagine that they were going to do any harm. And even when Ignaz Semmelweis first introduced the idea of washing hands, he didn't do it with the knowledge that this was to get rid of bacteria.

Starting point is 00:29:56 He just had made an observation in maternity wards that there was a higher incidence of death among the women who were attended by physicians than by nurses. And he figured that it was because of where those doctors were coming from. And very often they had come to the maternity ward after having done an autopsy somewhere else. And he figured that they were carrying something on their hands that was causing the childbed fever that some of these women were dying of. And he just said, okay, let's try washing hands. It was an empirical observation. It didn't really have a theoretical background, but obviously it worked. But the interesting thing, it wasn't immediately accepted. And there were arguments about whether or not it was worth doing that.

Starting point is 00:30:35 But then, of course, the evidence became very clear, and we've been washing hands ever since. So it's very important to wash hands. Something that has gotten a lot of attention lately when it comes to weight loss is intermittent fasting. The idea that you restrict the hours that you eat. You only eat between these hours. And that somehow there's science there that it somehow is more effective than just your standard weight loss diet. So what is, is there science there? What's the story? It does work, but I'm not sure

Starting point is 00:31:13 it works for exactly the reason that people think that it works. I don't think that there's anything magical about restricting it to certain hours of the day. I think what that really does is it reduces your overall calorie consumption. That's what it does. It's just a gimmicky way of doing that. But, of course, if it is accomplished, then it doesn't matter if it's gimmicky. You know, I often like to say that the laws of thermodynamics will never be rescinded. And the only way to lose weight is to expend more calories than you take in. And with intermittent fasting, the studies have shown that indeed you are consuming fewer calories.

Starting point is 00:32:01 And, you know, if you stick to it, you can lose weight. But what happens with the intermittent diet is what we see with so many other diets. Over the short term, they work because people can abide by them but then it just becomes too restrictive and people go back to eating the way they were eating before. So yes, in the short term, intermittent fasting works, but we do not have any evidence that it has a long-term effect. One of the things you talk about, and I think people would really like to know the science here,

Starting point is 00:32:36 is about plant-based burgers, because they've become a real thing now, and they really do get very close to tasting like real meat. So how do you make meat out of plants? And what about the implication there that because they're made from plants and they're not real beef, that somehow that's healthier? So what about that? There are many versions today of burgers made from plant materials. I mean, the Impossible Burger is one that has gotten a lot of publicity. But even before that, I mean, you know, we have a history of vegetarian burgers. And mostly they are made from soy.

Starting point is 00:33:19 Soy is the closest to meat in terms of having the right protein content. And it's also quite easy to make things out of soybeans. Another one is peas, a certain kind of pea you can formulate into very meat-like texture. But the taste is not exactly the same. You can't totally mimic the taste of meat, but they're coming pretty close. Some of the ones that are made from the roots of the soybean plant have a texture and taste that is quite similar to meat. But one thing that I think is important to point out is that there are some downsides to these burgers, and one is the salt content. And the plant-based burgers generally have a higher salt content than meat-based burgers. What I normally say is that the reason to eat

Starting point is 00:34:13 the plant-based burgers is if you have a consideration for the environment, because animal agriculture is not an environmentally friendly business. The pesticides and fertilizers that have to be used to grow the food that is to be fed to the animals, all of the trucking that is involved, you know, leaves a large footprint. And it is somewhat less with the plant-based burgers. However, in terms of nutrition, there's nothing really to recommend the plant-based burgers over the beef burger. Their composition is very similar in terms of fat content and protein content. But the concerning thing is that the plant-based burgers tend to be higher in salt, and that is something that we should be cutting back on.

Starting point is 00:35:04 But they're not necessarily because they're plant-based, one might assume, oh, that means they're healthier, but they're not healthier. No, they're not healthier. They're nutritionally very similar to beef burgers. And in fact, I mean, one could argue that the high salt content makes them less nutritious. So you talk about BPA, and I remember hearing about this some time ago that, you know, don't touch your receipts from the supermarket or the ATM machine. And I thought this was figured out and done away with. So where are we with BPA?

Starting point is 00:35:36 Yes and no. I mean, BPA stands for bisphenol A, which is one of the most widely produced chemicals in the world. And I mean, as you can imagine, the reason one of the most widely produced chemicals in the world. And I mean, as you can imagine, the reason that a chemical would be produced on such a scale is because it's a very useful substance. Now, most of the BPA that is used is formulated into a type of plastic called polycarbonate. And once it is linked with other materials to make a polymer, which is the basic material in polycarbonate, the bisphenol A as such is no longer present because it's been linked together with other molecules to make the plastic. And polycarbonate plastics are very useful. The headlights on cars, for example, are made of polycarbonate.

Starting point is 00:36:21 Football helmets, hockey helmets, eyeglasses are made of polycarbonate, so it's a very useful material. Now, the problem is that bisphenol A, the BPA, that is the monomer, which is used to make the plastic, that has endocrine disrupting properties, meaning that in the laboratory and in test animals, we can show that it has hormone-like effects. That's not something that one wants to see. However, when you're talking about it being incorporated into the plastic, it is no longer present as BPA. So that really isn't an issue. But there are two other situations where there is an issue. The BPA is also used to make what we call epoxy resins that are used to line the inside of food cans.

Starting point is 00:37:08 Now, the reason that it's in there is to make sure that the food in the can is isolated from the can material so it doesn't pick up a metallic taste, and also so that the can material doesn't react with the food to produce little pinholes in the can through which bacteria could enter and would make the food unsafe. Now, the issue here is that these epoxy resins can, in fact, break down and release small amounts of BPA into the food. Whether or not that has any kind of consequence, no one has been able to show because the amounts that are released are very, very small. And of course, it's impossible to do the study that would give us a definitive answer there. So we make some educated guesses here. And it is that with the doses to which we are exposed from the cans is not likely to be harmful. But nevertheless, it would be better if there were none.

Starting point is 00:38:06 So companies have now worked out ways to replace the epoxy resins with ceramic coatings or with polyethylene coatings, which don't have this problem. So that has pretty well been solved. The other problem is the cash register receipts, because the ink that is used in those is made with BPA, and that indeed can leave a tiny residue on fingers. I don't think that is an issue for the customer, but it may be an issue for the clerk who is handling these all the time. But again, I think in the context of overall life and all of the risks that we face, I think these risks are minor. I want to talk about placebos because you write about them in your book and they're so fascinating because this idea that human beings can make something work by believing that they work is, it's almost like anti-science. It's like there's no reason for this to in medicine, and it's not one that

Starting point is 00:39:25 should be swept under the carpet. You know, very often people will say, oh yeah, it's all in your mind, suggesting that therefore it doesn't matter. Well, of course it matters. I mean, if you feel better, you feel better. It doesn't matter where that solution is coming from. And we know that the placebo effect works in 30 to 40 percent of the cases. That is, if people have some condition, especially if it's a painful one, and you give them what amounts to a sugar pill or sugar water, but tell them that it's some new kind of medication that has been just developed, 30 to 40 percent of the time they will tell you that they feel much better. One thing, though, I think we have to be very careful to point out is that the placebo effect does not cure any disease. It just allows you to perceive the symptoms in a more acceptable

Starting point is 00:40:20 fashion. So we're not talking about a treatment here. We're just talking about changing the way that you perceive the symptoms. But the sort of the dastardly cousin of the placebo effect is the nocebo effect, where if you believe that something is going to do you harm, you may actually experience symptoms. If you believe that talking on a cell phone could give you a migraine, and you've been reading all of these articles on the internet about that, you may actually get a headache from talking on a cell phone. So the mind is very powerful, both in doing good and in causing problems. Slowing down the aging process is a thing that people talk about all the time, and there's lots of products and lots of theories on how you slow it down.

Starting point is 00:41:13 What do you say? I say you slow it down by exercising regularly and having a good diet. That's how you slow it down. Now, of course, there is a lot of talk, as you mentioned, about all kinds of supplements, the so-called anti-aging supplements, the memory-enhancing supplements. I mean, you know, there are a large number of supplements on the market that claim to slow down the aging. But again, you underline the word claim because they don't have any real evidence. And one of the most unfortunate aspects here is that you have a law in the U.S.

Starting point is 00:41:50 called the Dietary Supplement and Health Education Act, or D.J., which was passed back in 1993, which essentially allows anything to be sold as a dietary supplement as long as it occurs somewhere in nature. And for a dietary supplement, you do not have to furnish the same kind of proof as you would for any kind of pharmaceutical product. So there are numerous substances that are sold, which really don't have any kind of evidence, but which have all kinds of exorbitant claims.

Starting point is 00:42:31 And, you know, I mean, these range from the commonplace like vitamin C, vitamin D, vitamin A, to the esoteric, like substances isolated from the soil on Easter Island, you know, a rapamycin. And again, what you always have to ask is, where is the evidence? Is there any evidence that has been published in a peer-reviewed journal? And that's always the question to ask to someone who says that they have come across something that has longevity-inducing properties or anti-aging effects. Say, well, where did you hear about this? Can you direct me to where you saw this, where it was published? Was it published in a prime peer-reviewed journal, or does it come from the National Enquirer? And you will find that

Starting point is 00:43:20 there is no backing in any proper peer-reviewed trials for any of these things. But there certainly is a lot of backing for exercise. If only we could bottle that, that would be great. But you can't. Similarly for nutrition, this we know, that the food that we eat plays a very important role in our health. And we are beginning to learn that the closer we are to a plant-based diet, the better off we are. And isn't there some connection between

Starting point is 00:43:52 calorie restriction and longevity? There is. Certainly, there have been a large number of studies on that, studies on fruit flies, on primates. If you just restrict your caloric intake significantly, you increase longevity. But again, fruit flies and mice or rats are not people. So you cannot necessarily extrapolate to people. But certainly the studies that we have on more primitive creatures show that if you really restrict their caloric intake, they live longer. But we're talking here about a very severe restriction. We're talking about cutting back about a third of your daily calories, which does not make for an attractive lifestyle for most people. and you know then you begin to question is it worthwhile to live longer when you don't

Starting point is 00:44:48 have anything worthwhile to live longer for right because people enjoy food. Food is one of the great sources of pleasure in life You write about apples and it's interesting because you know we have the saying an apple a day keeps the doctor away but you also point

Starting point is 00:45:04 out that apples you can use apples to illustrate how science and what you say about science can be manipulated. So explain that. In terms of looking at the nutritional properties of apples, yes, it does contain a number of vitamins. It's very high in fiber. But I also point out that you could also make someone be very scared of apples by just choosing the right and inappropriate words. For example, I could tell you that every time that you bite into an apple, you're consuming about 300 different compounds, one of which is acetone. And the last time you encountered that was probably on the label of your nail polish remover.

Starting point is 00:45:50 There's also some formaldehyde in the apple. And that, of course, is the fluid that morticians use to preserve bodies. So whenever you're eating an apple, you're eating two poisonous things. You're eating acetone, which is highly toxic. You're eating formaldehyde, which is a carcinogen, but it's a safe way to go because you will be pre-embalmed. Of course, this would be absurd to say, even though it is true that the apple contains acetone, it is true that it contains formaldehyde, but these are there in vanishingly small amounts, inconsequential. And as Paracelsus told us 500 years ago, only the dose makes the poison.

Starting point is 00:46:33 And this is one of the most important tenets in science. It's the cornerstone of toxicology. And you always have to look at numbers. In science, numbers are everything. We're comparing numbers all the time. We're formulating in terms at numbers. In science, numbers are everything. We're comparing numbers all the time. We're formulating in terms of numbers. So I could, as I just did, try to insinuate that apples can be toxic because of the acesol and the formaldehyde. It would be an absurd statement because the amounts are way too small to do any harm. And the reason that I mentioned that is because,

Starting point is 00:47:05 as we mentioned earlier about BPA, which is also potentially toxic, but you have to take into account the amounts to which we are exposed. And in most cases, there's no greater worry about exposure to those compounds than there is to exposure to acetone or formaldehyde in apples. So the dose matters. Well, these kind of discussions are important because we hear about the science of things in our life, and I guess we tend to believe what we hear. We hear an explanation.

Starting point is 00:47:37 If it sounds plausible, we believe it. But it's important and I think interesting to hear the real science of these things, and I appreciate the conversation. Joe Schwartz has been my guest and he is the director of McGill University's Office for Science and Society. And his book is called Science Goes Viral, Captivating Accounts of Science in Everyday Life. And you will find a link to that book in the show notes. Thank you, Joe. Appreciate you being here.

Starting point is 00:48:04 Well, thanks very much. You've probably heard the theory that having a pet dog is somehow good for your health. And you may have wondered, well, how? Like, how does that work? Well, here's one way it works. Scientists took a look at 421 heart attack victims, some dog owners, some not dog owners. They found the dog owners were far more likely to survive the heart attack than the non-dog owners. Dog owners are less obese and more active physically and socially. Another study found that

Starting point is 00:48:41 pet owners have to go to the doctor less often than people with no pet. The study looked at kids, too, and those kids with pets had stronger comforting and empathy skills and a better sense of overall well-being. So those are just some examples of how having a pet dog is good for your health. And that is something you should know. I assume you've enjoyed this podcast since you made it all the way to the end of the episode. And so since you did enjoy it, perhaps you could tell someone you know and ask them to give a listen and help us grow our

Starting point is 00:49:16 audience. I'm Micah Brothers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity.

Starting point is 00:49:50 The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook. Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan.

Starting point is 00:50:10 Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Contained herein are the heresies of Rudolf Pantwine, erstwhile monk turned traveling medical investigator. Join me as I study the secrets of the divine plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth that ours is not a loving God and we are not its favored children. The Heresies of Redolph Buntwine,

Starting point is 00:50:41 wherever podcasts are available.

Something You Should Know - How to Get Other People to Change & The Science in Everyday Life

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