Something You Should Know - How to Get People To Give You What You Want & The Amazing Benefits of Being In Nature

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Starting point is 00:00:31 Today on Something You Should Know, a few little tricks that will make sure you look good in photographs. Then, getting people to give you what you want by negotiating just the right way. I think negotiation is misinterpreted as manipulation and it sounds like you're trying to manipulate someone for more than you deserve but the reality is it's just leveraging your worth for something that you value. Also in a job interview should you be modest about your achievements or speak up proudly? Depends on who you are and the remarkable evidence that getting out in nature is really

Starting point is 00:01:10 good for you. Spending time in nature, studies show that it can balance our nervous systems, help us recover from stress more quickly and more completely, even reduce inflammation and enhance immune function, which is very important. All this today on Something You Should Know. human beings and how to find happiness and peace of mind. Thank you and have a nice life. Unfortunately, life doesn't come with an owner's manual. That's why there's BetterHelp Online Therapy. Connect with a credentialed therapist by phone, video, or online chat. Visit betterhelp.com to learn more. That's betterhelp.com.

Starting point is 00:02:01 Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today something you should know with mike carothers we just got back from picking my son up at camp and of course as everyone's leaving everybody's taking pictures and i love taking pictures but i I'm not so thrilled about being in pictures because so often I don't think I look that good. And if you've ever felt that way, here are some tips that will ensure that you look better in the photographs you're in. If you're taking a selfie, a photograph of you and someone else

Starting point is 00:02:40 with your arm out in front of you, be careful. The tendency is to hold the camera too low so it's shooting up. A low camera angle is never flattering. Try to position the camera level with your forehead and then tilt it down slightly. Instead of faking a smile, try to think about something truly happy. A genuine smile always looks better. And don't say cheese. You can use this Hollywood trick and say the word money instead.

Starting point is 00:03:16 The movement of the lips when you say money makes the smile look more natural. To prevent squinting or having your eyes shut when the photo is taken, ask the photographer to count to three, then close your eyes and open them on three. If you're standing, turn slightly and put your weight on one foot. It may feel funny, but you will look better. And look slightly above the lens, not directly into it. And that is something you should know. I have always remembered some advice my father gave me when I was very young, and that is, if you want something, you have to ask for it. Seems like simple and pretty obvious advice, but so much of the time we don't ask for what we want. And often when we do, we don't ask in a confident way, as if we don't ask for what we want. And often when we do, we don't ask in a confident way,

Starting point is 00:04:07 as if we don't deserve it. Well, enough of that. Dr. Meg Myers-Morgan is here to help you discover how to ask and negotiate for the things you want in your life and do it in a way that gets people to want to give you what you want. Meg is an assistant professor at the University of Oklahoma, and she's author of the book, Everything is Negotiable, The Five Tactics to Get What You Want in Life, Love, and Work. Hi, Meg. Thanks for being here.

Starting point is 00:04:36 Hello, Mike. So why do you suppose it is that people have such trouble asking for what they want and then negotiating to get it? I'd say there are three reasons why people don't negotiate or are bad at it. The first is they don't know if they can, when they can, where they can. The second is they're not even sure what the ask is. They're really kind of murky about what it is they want. And the third is they're worried about how they will come across if they negotiate. Maybe they think they'll seem greedy or ungrateful, especially when we think

Starting point is 00:05:10 about salary negotiations. So a lot of times it's having to figure out what it is you want and what it is that you're worth. And those two questions are just hard for people. Yeah, I think you're right. Especially it seems when the ask is big, if you're asking for something really important, like, you know, a raise or whatever it is, the bigger the ask, it seems the harder it is. And you're right. We don't want to appear greedy. We don't want to appear stingy. I wonder where that comes from. Yeah, I think there's some insecurity there. I think there's always a way. One, I think there's a fear that maybe the job offer will get revoked or what you're asking for you won't get. And we're just sort of conditioned to maybe undersell our worth in a variety of ways, but also just confirmation bias.

Starting point is 00:06:03 We just may not feel really strong in ourselves. And so when we're trying to put ourselves out there and ask for something, whatever it is, I think there's part of us that doesn't think we deserve it. So it's getting in your mindset what you deserve and then speaking up and asking for it. Yeah. Well, I think you've identified a big part of it is that insecurity, that nagging fear that maybe I don't deserve it, maybe I shouldn't ask for more. So what's the solution? What people could have of you for asking what you want. In the case of a salary, it might make you look very confident and competent and worth more to the company. If you're a wife negotiating with your spouse for more support and help at home, it looks like you're standing up for yourself. So I think it's a little bit about reframing your concern over what other people are going to think.

Starting point is 00:07:06 Isn't it interesting that, you know, in my case, let's say, if somebody asks me for something, I don't necessarily think badly of them for asking. And yet, I sometimes worry when I ask for something, and I'm sure other people feel the same way, that when I ask for something, I worry that they will think badly of me. Right. And with negotiation, we tie it to the outcome. And to some extent, that's good. We do want to get what we're going to ask for. But don't forget, there's a lot of value in the ask.

Starting point is 00:07:39 And a great example was I had a student that got a job and she was a little upset that the pay wasn't bigger, but she didn't want to ask for more money. And so we talked about it and then she decided, okay, she would ask. And they came back and they said, I'm sorry, we're just not going to, this is all we're going to offer you. But because she hadn't made that ask, she now realized she was worth what she was asking for and she turned the company down. So I think sometimes the value is in saying aloud what it is that you want or asking for. And even if you don't get it, you've at least negotiated with yourself a new bottom line.

Starting point is 00:08:17 I know you talk about deadlines and how deadlines can get in the way of what you want and setting arbitrary deadlines for things that you think you want can be a problem. I'm not sure why we do this. I see this a lot with the younger generation where they sort of line up their life by deadlines. So they need to have, you know, a master's degree by 30 or be married by 25 or kids by whenever. And the problem with that is you start to compartmentalize your life instead of letting it all happen at once. And when you're sort of waiting around for the right time, we all know that doesn't exist. And so I just say, you know, you should have sort of a general timeline, but not deadlines on things because that's added pressure and it's arbitrary. And it makes you believe that you couldn't

Starting point is 00:09:10 renegotiate terms later on. If you chose a career and you're, you, you're in that career and you decide you don't like it, but it aligned with your timeline. Now you feel kind of stuck there. So I think it should be a little bit more fluid in how your life comes at you. You offer a piece of advice that is contrary to what most people would think would be good advice. And that is you say that you shouldn't say you should give your all to any one thing. That giving your all puts you in a bad position? I think it's really detrimental to say things, to even say them, that you should give your all, because there's truly nothing we can give our all to. And that's a very high expectations for anyone. And I argue that you should give your sum to a lot of things. And that doesn't mean that

Starting point is 00:10:02 you don't do things well. But I do think that people that are really well-rounded and have good careers are doing more than one thing. And all of those things they're doing inform the others. And I am a living example of that. I'm a college professor, but I'm also a writer. And it helps me sort of spread out career disappointments and achievements. Because sometimes you're up in one side of your career. And if all your eggs are in one basket, you might have some highs and some lows, but those lows will be tough if there's not something else tethering you. And so you say focus on the people in the room. Explain what you mean by that.

Starting point is 00:10:42 Yeah. Explain what you mean by that. Yeah, so when I got my position at the university, I had, it was a dwindling graduate program and they had the option to either shut the program down or hire someone to see if they could save it. And this wasn't wisdom on my part. This was survival. I had six students and there were all these ideas of ways I could save this program,

Starting point is 00:11:03 but really I just had to commit to those six students in the room, to those, those people that were in front of me. And by working with those students and kind of shaping a program around what they wanted, you know, the program grew and grew and now it's, it's quite big. And so I just think that a lot of times we're sort of searching for big goals and big plans, but I think it starts with small action. And I think it starts with working on what's right in front of you, the negotiation that's right in front of you. The people that are right in front of you are often the quickest way to make those big plans happen. Well, I think when people think about negotiation, you know, well,

Starting point is 00:11:41 first they think, well, that's what you do when you buy a car. Right. You know, or when you go get a job. But even then, I think people are reluctant to negotiate. They just take whatever is offered. And that's the deal. Because there's something about negotiation that people either don't like or don't feel comfortable with or feel they're inept at. I think negotiation is misinterpreted as manipulation.

Starting point is 00:12:14 And it sounds like you're trying to manipulate someone for more than you deserve. But the reality is it's just leveraging your worth for something that you value. And maybe you value more time, more flexibility, more sanity. Maybe you do value more money or a better price on a car. But what I encourage people to do is to think about the pain point. And if you can find the pain point and name it, that's where you need to negotiate. And so if you're feeling, one of the common ones I get about around careers are boredom. I feel bored in my job. That's the pain point. And so I say, well, what can you negotiate to make it not so boring? And people are sort of always waiting for their boss or their company to sort of fix it for them. But you really kind of have to get clear and go in and say, I'm feeling bored and this is the challenge I'm demanding.

Starting point is 00:13:03 And I think once you can find those pain points, it's pretty clear where the negotiation needs to happen. Yeah, I like that because we don't think of it necessarily in those terms, but understanding the pain point really helps you focus on what it is you want and then how to go get it, or at least gives you an idea of how to go get it. Yeah, one of the great examples that I kind of always reference is, you know, my husband and I were married for a few years before we had kids. And when our first kid came, we suddenly had to like renegotiate the terms because there's suddenly just a third person and it was sort of chaotic.

Starting point is 00:13:41 And so there was a strong pain point there where I was feeling overwhelmed and burdened and resentful and all kinds of things that I think are very common. And so I remember him coming home from work and saying, we have to renegotiate. And me being very clear about what I needed from him was kind because he then could do exactly what was needed versus him just coming home and me saying, this isn't working. I'm not happy. And so I think getting clear on the pain point, getting clear on the ask is the kindest thing you can do for all parties involved in the negotiation.

Starting point is 00:14:17 We're talking about how to get what you want in life, love and work. And my guest is Dr. Meg Myers Morgan. She's author of the book, Everything is Negotiable. Bumble knows it's hard to start conversations. Hey, no, too basic. Hi there. Still no. What about hello, handsome? Who knew you could give yourself the ick?

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Starting point is 00:16:00 There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So Meg, I think one of the fears, one of the reasons people hesitate and don't ask for what they want is they fear the response. You know, what if they get rejected? What if the whole thing falls apart? What if the person says no? And if you don't ask, then you'll never hear those things. Yeah. I mean, I think there are ways, you know, I'm a big fan of having a personal board of directors, having a mentor, having somebody that's not in your line of promotion that you can kind of talk to about this so it doesn't seem as demanding.

Starting point is 00:16:46 But I think, again, that value in the ask, it's going to set up for you what you're willing to accept. People can say no to you. And then you may have to decide this isn't the right work environment for me or this isn't the right relationship for me or friendship or whatever the case may be. But I think having your gut check those pain points, but then being able to maybe bounce that off of somebody who's a little bit more objective. And that's honestly the role I serve for a lot of these students when they come in and they say, I'm really upset or I'm really bored,

Starting point is 00:17:19 I'm going to ask for more. And I think I'm a great sounding board to say, yeah, this is a good area for you to negotiate. Well, I do like that idea because I think if some disinterested third party, if some other person tells you, yeah, you should ask for that, it gives you confidence that you're right and makes you feel less insecure about the ask that you're asking for and gives you that confidence to go ask for what you want. But don't you think too, though, that you have to keep in mind like what's in it for the other person? Why should they give you what you want? What do they get out of this? Yeah, I think negotiation has to have, you know, counter offers, right? So if you think about when you're asking for something that you need, you're also having to define the value for someone else. And if you're not clear

Starting point is 00:18:11 on what they're getting, then that's not necessarily going to be a great negotiation. Because a negotiation, again, is not going in and holding someone hostage for your demands. It's you going in and saying, I need this from you, and here's how it's going to benefit both of us. And I think if you keep in mind the other player's role and their needs, the more likely you are to be successful. Yeah, I think that's so important because, I mean, how often has anybody asked for something and in the back of their mind thinking, you know, I'm taking from you, this is going to benefit me at your expense. And that's hard to sell. Right, right.

Starting point is 00:18:52 And instead, you're just saying, I value something and I'm worth something. And in return, I'm going to give you something else. And no, no boss, no spouse, no friend wants you to be unhappy. But often when I work with students, they're the only person that knows their pain point and are sort of waiting for it to be fixed. And I think, I always say, are you the only person that knows you're bored? Are you the only person that knows you're unhappy? And oftentimes it is, and it's exactly what you said. They're afraid to say something. The alternative, though, is an unhappy employee or an unhappy spouse just sitting there resentful. whole idea of negotiation, there's tactics and there's, you know, you've got to ask for more than you want and be willing to take less and counter offers and all that and all the tactical

Starting point is 00:19:51 things that I think really put people off. Especially with salary, you're going to want to ask for more than you want and then you need to have your kind of bottom line that you're willing to accept. But what's interesting about that is, at least when it comes to salary, there's other stuff that you can negotiate that isn't salary. And so it's always important to think about the other things that you value that are at play. So say they come back and they don't want to give you money. Is there a flexible work schedule that you'd like to negotiate for or more time off or anything that can kind of make you successful in whatever it is, your role as a worker or a student or a spouse or a friend, whatever it is that you need.

Starting point is 00:20:38 But I will say it's mostly with salary that you want to try to ask for more than you need. In life negotiations, I think the clearer you are and the more specific you are, it's pretty easy to agree to those terms because it really only feels like in money where people get the most squeamish about that. strategies, your tactics is get out of your own way. And you talk about how often in asking for what you want and negotiating that we're really, we really get in our own way. It's not the other person that's the problem so much as, as we are. A big argument I have is that the, the negotiation, the hardest one you have is with yourself and, uh, get out of your own way really does refer to this idea of perfectionism and trying to be everything all the time and do it in a way that's not sustainable. And when you strive for perfectionism, even if you reached it, which you can't, how would you even sustain it? And so I just try to encourage

Starting point is 00:21:47 students and of course myself when I look in the mirror that you don't have to like be perfect today. You have to give what you can where you can and to not be the person that's holding you back. Because a lot of times when it comes to our own happiness or our own ability to move up, we are the people holding ourselves back. It does seem too that our self-talk, our self-criticism really makes this worse. Self-criticism is a big driver into why we don't value ourselves more. And I've certainly wrestled with that. And a big part of the argument is just, if you aren't speaking and thinking highly of yourself, nobody else will either. So you sort of have to set the tone for how people are going to perceive you. And if you're

Starting point is 00:22:37 worried that they think that you're not perfect or that you're failing, that's the only choice they'll have to think. Yeah. Well, and when it comes to asking for what you want, whether it's a, you know, a raise or anything, it's hard to ask confidently for what you want when you're talking to yourself all the time about how you don't deserve it. And we, we tend to do that. Well, we do it out loud too. You know, one of my big pet peeves that I see my peers do is get on social media and thank their husband for putting up with them. We say things out loud. And if you just track for a day, the way you talk about yourself, you start to see some kind of upsetting patterns about even if you do it in jest, oh, I'm so stressed out, I'm so harried, I'm so forgetful. And that kind of starts to lead the way other people think about you and the way you carry yourself. And so you really, and a big part of the book is changing your narrative and changing the way that you talk about yourself and see yourself.

Starting point is 00:23:40 And one of those is getting rid of that negative self-talk. Well, it's so true. What you say out loud about yourself and what you say internally to yourself, you say it enough and pretty soon other people start to believe it and you start to believe it. And pretty soon you become this person that you're talking about. Yeah, that was one of the personal negotiations I did was when I had my first kid, I thought it was very important that I looked very busy and stressed out. And at work, I needed to be talking about how much I missed my kids. And when I was with my kids, I needed to be stressed about work. And I did this sort of on and off for a year, sort of glorifying busy. And then I just, I don't know what hit me,

Starting point is 00:24:25 but I thought this isn't who I am. I don't want to be like this. And I realized a lot of it was just, I don't know, fake narrative. And I didn't want to be that example for my students. And so I just stopped and I renegotiated. And I thought, no, the way I want to be perceived is excited about all the stuff that's in my life. And I am. And so why was I so quick to kind of write it off or act like it was a burden when it wasn't? A big part of asking for what you want and getting what you want is internal, is preparing yourself to do it, not just in who you ask and how you ask it. It's been really insightful. Dr. Meg Myers-Morgan has been my guest. She's an assistant professor at the University of Oklahoma, and her book is Everything is Negotiable,

Starting point is 00:25:23 The Five Tactics to Get What You Want in Life, Love, and Work. You'll find the link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks, Meg. Thanks, Mike. It's been a pleasure. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where

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Starting point is 00:26:38 Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. From the time you were a child, you have probably heard that you need to go outside, that being outside is good for you. And you've probably heard the advice that it's good to be

Starting point is 00:27:19 out amongst nature, that it lowers your stress. But all this get outside, it's good for you advice, it all seems a little vague. How exactly is it good for you? What is being outside around trees and plants? How does that really affect you? Well, here to tell you is Lucy Jones. She is a writer who has explored the science behind the idea that there's a connection between your health and well-being and being outdoors in the natural world. The name of her book is Losing Eden, Our Fundamental Need for the Natural World and Its Ability to Heal Body and Soul. Hi, Lucy. Welcome.

Starting point is 00:27:59 Thank you for having me. It's great to be here. So what is it about being outdoors that's supposed to be so good for you? Other than the fact that, you know, nature is beautiful and it's lovely, what is it that happens when you go out in it? Sure. I mean, yes. And that was my kind of assumption at the beginning, that it must be to do with the simple beauty. But in fact, what's really fascinating and really important is that spending time in nature really affects us from our heads to our toes. More broadly, studies show that it can balance our nervous systems, help us recover from stress more quickly

Starting point is 00:28:38 and more completely, even reduce inflammation and enhance immune function, which is very important. And breaking that down a bit, there are so many myriad elements in the living world, which scientists have now been showing and proving and measuring and explaining have quantifiable impacts on us. So let me give you a few examples. If you're a gardener and you might get a buzz after gardening and digging your hands in soil, that might be because there's a microbacteria that lives in soil, which has been found to have antidepressant-like effects on the human brain. It boosts our serotonin. so that might explain why you get a buzz after gardening we all might know that spending time in in parks is supposed to be good for us but did you know

Starting point is 00:29:33 that we have a genetic disposition to prefer certain shapes of trees shapes that um would have occurred on the savannah where we spent 99% of our evolutionary history. Another example that I really loved is the word petrichor, which means the smell of the earth after it's rained. You know when you've had kind of a long dry spell with no rain and then it rains and the air smells really amazing. And studies show that when we smell that smell, areas of our brain associated with calmness and relaxation are activated. And that's what really kind of blew my mind was the kind of depth and variety and diversity of the evidence. But how much does it move this needle? Does smelling that smell or seeing trees of a certain shape measurably change your mood? Or you would have to do it every day or you'd have to do it a couple hours every day?

Starting point is 00:30:34 Like how much you're assigning kind of this attribute to being out in nature, but like how much benefit is there? Sure. And that's a really, really good question. I think that some of the most robust and fascinating evidence that speaks to this idea of kind of a dose or amount of time that we need to spend is evidence that's come out of the forest bathing culture over in Japan and South Korea. And that shows that two hours spent in a woodland or in a forest, breathing in the chemicals that are emitted from trees, which are called phytoncides, have significantly measurable effects on mental health. And there are now myriad studies from

Starting point is 00:31:22 every single continent where particularly environmental psychologists have studied people who live in areas with nearby nature and opportunities to connect with the sea or woods or so on and those who have much less contact with nature. And the evidence is very robust now and very telling that if people have access to nature, they are more likely to have less psychiatric disorders, higher longevity of life, and improved health and well-being. Is it improved health and well-being in a preventative way? I mean, it doesn't treat disease. It just maybe helps you not get sick or how does it work? One of the keystone pieces of work in this area was a study done by a guy called Roger Ulrich, who studied people recovering from surgery. And there were two groups of people recovering from surgery and there were two groups of people recovering and one had a view

Starting point is 00:32:26 onto a tree and one group had a view onto just a brick wall and he found that those who were recovering with a view onto a tree actually had a shorter post-operative stay they had less symptoms of anxiety and depression and they needed less painkillers as well. So this was a study done back in the 1970s. And of course, it's not to say, you know, spending time in nature is going to cure your diseases. But the evidence shows, and it has done really in an anecdotal way for centuries. When we look at Florence Nightingale, for example, or the way asylums and hospitals have always been often been built in kind of natural areas, there is a connection between restorative natural environments and illness and ill health.

Starting point is 00:33:17 Could it just be though, or couldn't it just partly be though that if you're stressed out and you go out for a walk, you're really just distracting yourself, that you're getting away from your troubles and enjoying the beauty of nature and that that rest from that break from all the problems and stress in the world is just a break from all the problems and stress in the world and that that does something for you. I think that's definitely a strong element. But say you took that walk in a kind of paved, tarmac, urban area, you would be missing out on the myriad elements in the natural world, which have now been found to improve our health and wellbeing. So for example, you might not listen to birdsong, which we know can reduce blood pressure. You probably wouldn't see the fractal shapes of, which are found all over the place in nature and trees and plants, which also improve, affect brain activity involved with well-being and relaxation and calm you're probably unlikely to feel awe in uh kind of more urban environments and we know that awe

Starting point is 00:34:37 now has measurable effects on our our health that's not to say that there are beautiful villages in Italy or even you know the skyline of New York is going to awe some people and there are going to be kind of interesting things to look at but in a in a natural environment it's the variety and the diversity and the volume of different elements which have been found to impact the human mind and brain which make it a place where we can recover from stress more quickly and more completely so another really important area of work is the effect of spending time in natural environments versus urban environments on the nervous system if we walk into a natural environment, our parasympathetic nervous system is more likely to be activated. And that is the side of the nervous system, which is involved in immune function, rest, digest, feelings of contentment

Starting point is 00:35:38 and calm. It's the opposite to the sympathetic nervous system, which is that which we know is fight or flight, adrenaline, feeling kind of stressed and tense. So that really strikes me as a really important sign that these natural environments are so needed for our sanity. When it comes to the health benefits of being in nature, does it matter what kind of nature? Does it make a difference? Or is it just being outdoors amongst trees and green and that's enough? The population study found that people who live nearer the sea compared with people who don't are more likely to have better mental health and well-being. But saying that, most of us live in urban areas, right? And most urban areas don't have very much nature at all. And I live in an urban area too, so I was really interested in whether urban nature, you know, kind of plants coming up through a pavement or scrubby urban parks or so on, could have any impact on mental health. And it turns out that there's some really interesting evidence which can help us understand this more deeply. Firstly, studies suggest that unintentional daily contact with street trees,

Starting point is 00:37:10 so just living on a street with more street trees, is associated with lower antidepressant prescriptions. This is a study that came out of the Netherlands. Other studies show that background nature so for example walking through a park not necessarily looking at any of the trees or wanting to climb the trees or anything but just having that kind of background nature can provide a buffer against the stress of moving into an urban area and I think these studies are very important because they show that even if you're not someone for whom nature is a hobby or something that you kind of want to

Starting point is 00:37:52 spend your restoration time doing, it shows that everybody needs nature. And the implications then for urban planning and green design are really, really significant. Of course, I think most of us know this, but this huge now growing evidence base of the last 10, 20 years of really robust empirical and peer-reviewed science just shows that unequivocally, we really need more nature for our health and well-being. You know what I wonder is, does it matter if you're into nature? Like if you really love being in nature, are the effects better than if you're maybe, you know, an urban dweller, you don't care that much about getting away and being out in nature. So maybe you're more immune to the effects because you're

Starting point is 00:38:45 not really paying attention to it. Well, that was definitely me. About 10 years ago, I was living a really urban life, not spending any time outdoors and doing other things for my restoration. And my experience was that falling in love with the natural world again and experiencing the restorative benefits of being by a beautiful marshland and by a canal was so powerful. I was kind of like, how did I not know about this before? You know, why isn't this being prescribed? But there was a study done by a guy called Gregory Bratman, which compared people walking down a busy street with no nature on it and no trees or so on, and then walking down a street with tree lined and greenery. And his study found that those who walked down the tree line street had less rumination and

Starting point is 00:39:40 brooding and worry and less activity in a particular area of the brain associated with those things. And rumination and worry are associated with depression and so on. And I thought that that was really interesting. Those weren't people who were nature lovers. They're just kind of the general population. You mentioned in the beginning of our discussion, for example, that the smell after it rains seems to have some sort of effect on people, or if your hands are in the soil, there's something in the soil that seems to help with depression. And these are very specific things. But this general sense of when you're in nature, it things better it makes your mental and physical health

Starting point is 00:40:26 better what else besides things in the soil or you know the smell after a rain is helping or is it that we it just is it just being out in nature is good for you and we don't really know why the the latter we don't know yet i mean there are lots of things that we don't, and we don't really know why. The latter. We don't know yet. I mean, there are lots of things that we don't know. So we don't know. From my research, I might bring in the idea of biophilia, which is the theory that because we have spent 99% of our evolutionary history outdoors and among trees we have a innate affiliation and innate kind of appeal or drawing towards the living world that's a theory espoused by the american biologist ea wilson you know what it almost sounds like is isn't you could actually look at this as not not so much that nature is good for you but not being in nature is bad for you that that's the

Starting point is 00:41:25 problem you know it's another way of looking at the same thing but it's kind of the flip side of the coin that the fact that we aren't out in nature is what's causing all all these problems that we have of stress and everything else and that that's the problem and nature is the cure because that's where we belong in the first place. I think that's absolutely it. I mean, we're living at unprecedented disconnection from the living world. We spend in the industrialized global north between 95 and 99% of our time indoors. And we've never been at this point of disconnection and estrangement from the rest of nature before. I think because of that disconnection, we've forgotten or we're overlooking how much we need the rest of nature and how much we are nature too.

Starting point is 00:42:19 You know, we are part of nature. We might think we're not but we are has there been any research that just looks at people who live in urban areas versus people who live in rural areas and just compare them in terms of these kind of mental health things to see if you can attribute the fact that you live more amongst nature that it does anything yes Yes, there's plenty of studies that compare urban groups with rural groups. A really interesting number of studies compared the Amish with the Hutterites. And they found that the children of the Amish, who are more used to living near animals, going in and out of barns, having a much more kind of traditional

Starting point is 00:43:06 relationship with the natural environment compared to the Hutterite children who live away from the kind of air conditioned barns, they have kind of big tractors, the children are not kind of living alongside animals in the same way as the Amish are. And they found that the children of the Amish had much lower levels of inflammation and inflammatory conditions such as asthma or allergic disorders. And another aspect of that is also psychiatric disorders as well. So inflammation is associated with our mental health. And the conclusion that the scientists reached is called the old friends hypothesis, which means that essentially the old friends, which are the bacteria that we have evolved with, that we do not get exposed to in our kind of air conditioned,

Starting point is 00:43:59 very urban lives, are actually very beneficial for us and particularly for the health of our guts and inflammation and mental health and so on. And that's a study which speaks to that difference between rural and urban living. Also, studies that compare rural and urban groups have found that people recover from stress more quickly and more completely if they live in a rural area. So what's the prescription here? I mean, most of us, as wonderful as it might be, are probably not going to pack up and go live with the Amish. So what is the prescription as to how much nature we need?

Starting point is 00:44:36 Or is it just that any nature is better than no nature? A lot of nature is better than a little or what? Just that any nature is better than no nature. So some studies from Edinburgh found that even walking through a park, you know, for five minutes had measurable effects on brain activity from then moving into an urban area. It buffered the stress of the group that walked through the park. So a little bit of nature is much better than no nature. But it's kind of, it's almost like a cascading effect. The more nature you have, the more therapeutic benefits you may be exposed to.

Starting point is 00:45:17 So really, it's all good news. I mean, being outside in nature is good and there's no other side of it. I guess, you know, unless a tree falls on you, then I guess it's not so good. But nature is good for everybody and most people like being outdoors. So it truly is a win-win. Lucy Jones has been my guest. She is a writer and the name of her book is Losing Eden, Our Fundamental Need for the Natural World and Its Ability to Heal Body and Soul. You'll find a link to that book in the show notes.

Starting point is 00:45:48 Thanks, Lucy. Thanks for being here. Thank you. Take care. Modesty is a wonderful trait to reveal on a job interview, but only if you're a woman. A study done at Rutgers University had over 200 people examine a series of videotaped job interviews, both men and women. The job applicants were actually actors, told to respond modestly to the interviewer's questions. All of the applicants appeared equally qualified for the job. The results of the study showed that modesty was viewed as a sign of weakness and a low-status character trait for men that could adversely affect their employability or earnings potential. Modesty in women, however, was not viewed negatively, nor was it linked to status.

Starting point is 00:46:39 These are long-standing stereotypical gender traits that may not seem fair, but they are still valid in today's workplace. And that is something you should know. So normally I ask you at this point in the show to share this podcast with a friend or family member, but today I'm upping the pressure. I'm going to ask you to share it with three people. Three people. How hard can that be? Share this podcast with three people. I'm Mike Carruthers that be? Share this podcast with three people. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana

Starting point is 00:47:21 community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn

Starting point is 00:47:44 between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining,

Starting point is 00:48:19 a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining The

Something You Should Know - How to Get People To Give You What You Want & The Amazing Benefits of Being In Nature

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