Something You Should Know - How to Get People to Say Yes & What Your Darkest Emotions Mean

Episode Date: May 28, 2026

“Breakfast is the most important meal of the day.” We’ve all heard it countless times. But where did that idea come from—and is it actually true? Researchers have taken a much closer look at breakfast and the findings may surprise you. Source: https://www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.l42 Whether you realize it or not, you negotiate all day long—with your spouse, kids, friends, coworkers, and even strangers. The ability to persuade people and navigate difficult conversations can dramatically improve your personal and professional life. Attia Qureshi has spent decades teaching negotiation and persuasion strategies to leaders and organizations. In our conversation, she explains the subtle skills that make people more influential, why persuasion is often misunderstood, and how small changes in communication can help you get better outcomes without being manipulative or aggressive. Attia is founder of AQ Consulting, former MIT faculty member, adjunct professor at the University of Michigan, and co-author of Never Settle: Persuasion & Negotiation Skills to Get What You Want (https://amzn.to/4ugR3US). Attia's exclusive link for SYSK listeners: https://www.attiaqureshi.com/something Most people embrace emotions like joy and happiness while trying to avoid emotions such as anger, jealousy, shame, envy, and regret. But those darker emotions may actually contain important information about who you are, what you value, and what’s happening beneath the surface of your life. Daniel Smith, psychotherapist and author of Hard Feelings: Finding the Wisdom in Our Darkest Emotions (https://amzn.to/4dPzBkw), explains why these uncomfortable emotions exist, what purpose they serve, and why understanding them may be essential for emotional growth and self-awareness. Human attraction is far more complicated than simply “good looks.” In fact, repeated exposure, familiarity, attention, and several other subtle factors can quietly make someone seem more attractive over time—even when nothing about their appearance changes. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/evolutionary-human-sciences/article/visual-attention-to-faces-during-attractiveness-and-dominance-judgements/38F4497B251EFE2D8ED9F4D37F82D9C5 PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS POCKET HOSE: For a limited time, when you purchase a new Pocket Hose Ballistic, you'll get a FREE 360 degree rotating pocket pivot and a FREE thumb drive nozzle! Just text SYSK to 64000 AQUA TRU: Take the guesswork out of pure, great-tasting water. Head to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ now and get 20% off your purifier using promo code SYSK. AquaTru even comes with a 30-day best-tasting water guarantee or your money back. RULA: This Mental Health Awareness Month, don’t just think about your mental health - actually take the step to take care of it. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Rula.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to get started. QUINCE: Refresh your everyday with luxury you will actual use! Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Quince.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too! DELL:  With the Dell Pro laptop powered by Intel Core Ultra with vPro, no matter how many interruptions you have, your laptop won’t be one of them. With battery that’s optimized for the way you work, and built-in intelligence that quiets distractions the moment you’re trying to focus, your tech won’t slow you down.  Find out more at ⁠⁠⁠https://Dell.com/Dell-Pro⁠⁠⁠ SHOPIFY: It's time to turn those "what ifs" into CHA CHING with Shopify Today! Sign up for your $1 per month trail and start selling today at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Shopify.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You're no longer young people. You're just people. And people are either productive or dead weight. It's my first day of work, and I need to make a big impression. Were you just checking me out? No. It's too bad. I see at least 15 ladies I need to talk to you before my beta block is off. My coworkers don't take me seriously. It's not a human. It's just a piece of meat. Someone bring a gurney.

Today on something you should know, who says breakfast is the, the most important meal of the day. Then persuasion strategies to get people to say yes and give you what you want. I love the idea of reciprocity. The idea of reciprocity is that it's hardwired within us that when we receive something, we want to return it. The studies have shown that it's really deeply built within us, this idea that we want to return a favor or a gift.

Also, the interesting way people become more attractive, the longer you interact with them and understanding your darkest emotions like anger, shame, jealousy, and regret. Regret is always an emotion that I wonder, maybe there's no value to this one at all. Maybe this one's just a glitch, because regret is essentially a desire for a time machine. I wish I could turn back time and do it differently. All this today on something you should know. Hey, it's Hillary Frank from the longest, shortest time, an award-winning podcast about parenthood and reproductive health. We talk about things like sex ed, birth control, pregnancy,

bodily autonomy, and of course kids of all ages. But you don't have to be a parent to listen. If you like surprising, funny, poignant stories about human relationships and, you know, periods, the longest shortest time is for you. Find us in any podcast app or at longest shortest time.com. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top. firsts and practical advice you can use in your life. Today, something you should know with Mike Carruthers. Breakfast is the most important meal of the day. That seems to be conventional wisdom.

But is it actually true? That's the question we first explore as we begin today. I'm Mike Carruthers. Welcome to something you should know. So for years, we've all heard that breakfast is the most important meal of the day. but newer research suggests that may be more marketing slogan than medical fact. In fact, Kellogg's is credited with promoting the idea of the importance of breakfast going back to the early 1900s, and it was based on nothing more than the desire to sell cereal.

Today, large reviews of clinical studies have found that simply eating breakfast does not automatically help people lose weight or improve overall health. In fact, some studies found that people told who, eat breakfast actually consumed more calories throughout the day. What seems to matter much more is what you eat, when you eat, and your overall lifestyle. Researchers have found that healthy breakfast eaters also tend to exercise more, smoke less, sleep better, and generally make healthier choices overall, which may explain why breakfast got so much credit in the first place. Here's the interesting twist, newer research on chrono-nutrition suggests that timing may matter more than

breakfast itself. People who eat more of their calories earlier in the day and lighter meals at night often show better blood sugar control, less hunger, and easier weight management. And that is something you should know. When you think of persuasion or negotiation, you probably picture something high stakes like buying a car, negotiating a salary, or maybe hammering out a business deal. But the truth is, we all negotiate all day long. With spouses, kids, coworkers, friends, any time you're trying to persuade someone or resolve a conflict or get what you think you deserve, you're negotiating.

And some people just seem naturally better at it. They know how to influence without being pushy, and they know how to get to yet. without creating resentment. The good news is, those skills are learnable. Atea Koreshi has spent decades teaching negotiation and persuasion from elite universities to corporate boardrooms and even work connected to the U.S. State Department. She's a former MIT faculty member, adjunct professor at the University of Michigan,

and co-author of the book, Never Settle, Persuasion and Negotiation Skills to Get What You Want. Atia, welcome to something you should know. Hi, it's great to be here. So what I just said in the intro about we all negotiate every day, I don't think that way. I don't think of all these discussions and conversations I have are negotiating, but they are, aren't they? I think we are negotiating dozens or times per day, whether it is at home with chores or child care or dinner prep or where to go. for the holidays and which in-laws you're going to spend them with, or at work with who's going to stay late, working on a project,

or with your boss on that next promotion, happening all of the time and in dozens of moments throughout our daily life. And do you think we're very good at it? I unfortunately don't think we are yet, because a lot of people think about negotiation as theory. And there's also this misconception about what negotiation is. People think we're either born good negotiators or not, and that negotiation is sitting across from a table hammering something out because that's what we see in TV and movies. And

unfortunately, all of that has added up to people either avoiding negotiations, thinking of them as something that they have to conquer, and not being very good either way. Right, right. Well, when I think of negotiation, I think of, you know, some very serious, very form normal, you know, like labor union negotiation or in my own life, like sitting down at the car dealership and negotiating the price of a car, which, you know, I'd rather get root canal than do that. And it's, I just don't enjoy it because it just seems so adversarial and like you're looking for, they're going to trick me up here. And it has that reputation. The word has that reputation of being kind of sleazy and just, and that's probably what you would like to people not

to do. Yes, it absolutely has that reputation and it's something that people feel like they really want to avoid it. And that's what I thought too. I, you know, we kind of build these inner workings and often they happen as a kid. And as a kid, I was bullied in fifth grade. And there was a girl, Bethany, who decided I shouldn't have any friends. And that was a really powerful lesson on the impact of influence for me. And I went from being more passive and, you know, you know, from a child of immigrants who said, don't rock the boat, to all of a sudden thinking I had to be more assertive and aggressive. And so I saw both of those lanes. But then when I was sitting at MIT in my co-author's power and negotiation class, he talked about how there's this middle path, which I call relational negotiation, where if you build a strong relational foundation and bring your interests but also care about their interests, you can actually create more tangible value for both parties.

and a good relationship that means repeat interactions and more value down the line. When I think of negotiation, when I think many people think of negotiation, we think about tactics, like, you know, oh, ask for more than what you want and then settle for less, or, you know, never, never throw out the first number or always be the first one who throws out the first number. Or, you know, it's very tactical. It isn't thoughtful. It's just, it's a game. Yeah. There are tactics that are going to help, but it can also be very thoughtful and relational. So when you do that internal work, a part of that internal work other than the emotional side is being very thoughtful about what you care about in the negotiation and what your goal is. And a lot of people think of what they want as very positional. I need a 20% raise. Rather than I need to drive 20% more value for

my family, myself, my livelihood. And that's very different because when you go in with a position, all you're offering them in that role is either to say yes or no to you. You're not making it collaborative and it's actually not a negotiation and there's no room to create value for both parties. If you reframe it and think of it as I need 20% more value, all of a sudden, there are different ways that you can drive tangible value rather than just, the salary dollar, you can be thinking about bonus structures, equity structures, childcare subsidies, transportation cost coverage, vacation time, all of these other areas that actually can drive very tangible dollar amount value that come from different budget line

items, different budget buckets, and allow the other person to build a set of options that make the deal possible for both sides. And your brain works that way just kind of automatically. You start to think, that's a different way of thinking than I think most of us do is, is, it just isn't that thoughtful. It's more like, how do I get him to take out the trash or, you know, how do I get the price to drop a little bit? It's much more instant like that. Yes. And I would say I have built myself up to that negotiation isn't, people aren't born good negotiators. People are not born confident.

it's a skill that is not innate, but that we learn and build over time. And so luckily, I've had the time over the last decade to be building this skill and practicing it in the smallest ways. So, for example, thinking about my interests, I try to start by thinking of something really small, a very small decision I have to make, even just what am I going to do for lunch today? And what are the things that I care about? I care that it's healthy. I care that it's easy. I care that it doesn't take me a lot of time or effort to put into. And you want to start small in low stakes environments where it doesn't matter that you fail

because that's how you build that muscle memory and you take the step by step for improvement. And then once you do it for yourself, the next level up to that is trying to apply it to their perspective. Can you have a lens of empathy and guess what their interest might be? Because that gives you a lot of power in the conversation to start thinking, through what are the possibilities in which we might be able to make a deal. And usually we're pretty good at guessing their interests if we can take a step back and put ourselves in their shoes in an empathetic way that is generous toward them. And what would be, can you give me an example of that, like imaginary or from your life a real negotiation and how that went? Yes, absolutely. So I had a

client who was negotiating a job offer. And there was a recruiting company in the middle between her and the hiring manager. They had hired a company to find a candidate. And she was really excited about this job. She had two caveats that she wanted to talk to them about. She wanted to push the start date. And she wanted to understand if there was an opportunity for a promotion in a shorter time frame than a year because she felt like they were starting her off a little junior. Well, the recruiting person had actually framed this in a way to the hiring manager that the hiring manager rescinded the offer, which was shocking because I've never heard of that happening with all of the people I've ever coached. I've never seen that happen before. And I remember when she texted me this,

my stomach fell and I was shocked and I was panicked. I was like, can we hop on the phone right now? I need to understand what's going on here. And what we had to to do was actually put ourselves in the perspective of the recruiter and the hiring manager and figure out what was the communication gap here. What do they care about that felt like the need was not being met in this situation? And so for the hire with the recruiter, she actually was going on vacation and I realized that she was just trying to get this wrapped up one way or another and she was really brusk with her communication. And there must have been some miscommunication with that hiring manager where they thought they thought that she wasn't as interested,

she wasn't as committed, she was waffling about the decision. But what we did was we sent an email directly to the hiring manager at that point saying, hey, these are the things we care about. This is why we were asking, providing the why, and restating the interest in the role. And actually they came back and gave her the offer back. So that was us seeing a no. trying to think of why that happened and what their perspective might be and then approaching them with communication from their perspective while sharing our own interests.

Wow, that's amazing. That's quite a story. And it's so, I think as I would hear that, I would think emotions would get in the way. That first of all, maybe the hiring company was thinking, well, she's just asking too much, screw her. that, you know, forget it. And then I would, and then if I was your client, I would think how devastating that, you know, I don't think I want to work for them anyway. I mean, they're, like, emotions can really cloud the issue and you were able to stay on track and talk about the problem rather than how upset you were. Yes. And what was helpful, I knew she had been crying when we hopped on the phone. So she was absolutely devastated. And in that state, we can't think as clearly. Luckily,

I had a step of distance away from it. So even though I was also panicked, I, one thing I always recommend to my clients when trying to do that emotional management is the first thing is to breathe because we feel like we are in a panicked situation, a fight or flight moment, and our whole nervous system reacts and the blood drains from our brain and we can't think is clearly because we either need to fight or flee. So breathing, if we take a deep breath in and I like this, I take a deep breath in for three or four counts, hold it for three or four counts and then I let it out more slowly for six or eight counts because what that does, your body cannot release breath slowly if you are actually under attack. So it instantly tells your parasympathetic nervous system, the logic

center of your brain that you're not under attack and you start calming down. Then we can do the emotion labeling and then we can figure out our rational next steps. But you can't really do any of that until you do the emotional management. And then we can take those, you know, start applying the techniques. You said something to me before we started the interview that I wanted to ask you about in just a moment. I'm speaking with Atia Koreshi. She is co-author of the book, Never Settle, persuasion and negotiation skills to get what you want. So, Atia, you said to me before we started the interview, you said, people will help you. I'm sorry, I forgot.

What did you say? People can almost always help you. It depends on if they want to or not. Well, I love that. And here's a fairly high stakes example of a negotiation that illustrates that point that many of us have seen at the airport, right? At the airport when the flight gets delayed or it gets canceled or it's overbooked or something. And you see those people that just lose it and they scream and yell at the ticket agent or the person at the gate. And here's a chance maybe to get some help and they're blowing it

because they don't approach it as a negotiation. They're just furious. So I had this happen to me. I had a big conference in Charleston that was starting Monday morning. And it was Sunday and my flight was delayed. The other flight was canceled. They were like, we'll get you there Monday by noon. And I went up and I said, I remember I think it was Regina. I went up to her and I said, Regina. This is my situation.

I know that you're probably dealing with lots of people in this same situation. And I'm sure people are mad as heck and kind of taking it out on you. And she looked at me. She paused. First, she was typing rapidly on our computer. She looked at me and paused and said, yes, it is actually one of the worst travel days so far this year. And I was like, I bet. And that sucks.

Here's the situation I'm in. I have a really important conference tomorrow. And I'm hoping that there is some way that I can get there, even if it's super late tonight. Because right now they've booked me on a flight tomorrow that gets me too late to kick things off. And you know what she does? She takes a breath. And she starts typing and starts looking at options. And in that moment, instead of yelling at her, instead of treating her as someone who I needed something from that I wasn't going to interact with ever again and just try to get what I needed, I used her name.

I empathized with the situation, made a 10-second connection. And she found a way to get me to Charleston. It was by midnight that night, but at that point, I didn't care. What happens when you want something from someone, your spouse, your child, your whatever, and they just say no. You know, then I know I don't really want to help. I'm not doing that. I can't do that. I don't wish to do that.

It seems like how do, is there a resolution? Is there a path to something other than no or sometimes no is no? Okay. I love this question because, first of all, most of the, most of the truth. the people that I coach and talk to and teach and work with have a very hard time saying no. So I want to talk about that in a second because it's an incredibly important skill to be able to have, especially in a negotiation. I also like to see no's as not yets.

And that means that there is an interest of theirs that I don't understand and I need more information. So at that point, what I want to understand is where is that no coming from? Why is it a no? are there pieces of the puzzle that I don't have yet? And that's usually the case. I don't have pieces of the puzzle yet to figure out how this deal or this pie can be expanded. We can create more value for both sides and we can come and figure out an agreement or a path forward.

Now, sometimes it is a no. And that means that we have to respect the no, but we can also figure out where we make tradeoffs. because when we have my interests and your interests in a deal, we're not going to get every single thing we want. That's understood because we have someone else that we're working with. But if we can rank our interests, right? We have the top ones for us and the top ones for them. Then at a no, there's an opportunity to trade.

And I like priority trading where the things I care about that are less important to you and the things you really care about and less important to me, that's where we make our trades so that we can if you do have to say no, I need to understand where the future trade is going to be. I think people have this general sense of negotiation that you ask for more than what you want, you settle for less than what you asked for, you come down, they come up, and then everybody's happy. But, you know, it just feels so gamey. That is gamey.

And I think that the idea behind that is wanting people to feel like they are also getting a win because both sides need to feel like they're getting a win for actually to be a negotiation that people follow through on. The thing that I like to use as a technique with this is objective criteria or external benchmarks or standards. So you bring, you go and do some research and Chachabit and Claude and Gemini are amazing at this now, where you go and see what is the data out there that supports a range for whatever I'm negotiating. So what's the data out there for the car that I'm negotiating or the salary that I'm asking for. And then once you have that, you go and I always like to put the first number out there, which we call an anchor. I like to anchor

with the number that's most favorable to me, which, and we usually stay around the number that's put out there first. That's what studies have shown. So, but what you're doing is you're rooting it in data and it's data that you can share. And ideally, it's data that feels fair to both parts. parties. Now, of course, you want to be willing to move from just that anchor number, but you have a range which feels fair. It's a good way to bring up money when we generally hate bringing it up, and it's a good way to make people feel like it's fair, and that they are also having a win in the conversation. And again, like I said, we're not going to get every single thing we want. So what are the items that you're trading on to make sure that it does feel like a win for them

just as much as it feels like a win for you. You had mentioned a couple of tactics like, you know, putting out the first number and the other things like that that help the relationship not be, no, I'm not doing that. You know, to try to grease the wheels, other things that work like that. Yes. I love the idea of reciprocity.

And there are some really important caveats to reciprocity. breast deprosity is when you go and give something to someone that is small without an expectation of anything in return. So you want to build a better relationship with people around you, which ultimately will make them more amenable to an ask if you have one. So you periodically take your colleague a coffee and it's specifically the coffee that they like. Or you bring your spouse home like a little treat because you went to the cafe and saw something they liked. the more thoughtful and specific to them, the better. Now, the caveat here, first of all, the idea of reciprocity is that it's hardwired within us that when we receive something, we want to return it. The studies have shown that it's really deeply built within us, this idea that we want to return a favor or a gift.

And what you're doing is starting a virtuous cycle of reciprocity where you're doing that for each other in really slow, small, meaningful ways, which build a really good foundation. But what's important here are two items. First, you're doing it without an expectation of anything in return because we can always smell quid pro quo. If I buy you lunch today and then ask you for something tomorrow, that is not reciprocity. That is quid pro quo. The second is your intent. People ask me about the difference between influence and manipulation. Influence is when you are trying to improve a situation for both parties.

And if they found out what you were doing, would they be upset about it? it or not. Manipulation is you're trying to get something out of someone that is not necessarily in their best interest and if they found out they would be pretty unhappy with what you are doing. And so the intent behind it and that idea of giving something small and improving the relationship is huge and fostering that idea of people can almost always help you. It depends on if they want to or not. And this even works with bad relationships and can improve them overtime. Well, this is a real refreshing way of looking at negotiation, especially for people who are stuck in that idea that negotiation is this slimy, sleazy practice. You've taken it out of

that realm for sure. So thanks for being here. Oh my gosh, my pleasure. I just want to create as much value for your listeners as possible. And I also have created a special landing page on my website for them with some custom content. It is atia careschi.com slash something. I've been speaking with Atia Qureshi. She is a negotiation expert. And author of the book, Never Settle. Persuasion and negotiation skills to get what you want.

There's a link to her book and also the link that she just mentioned on her website to some custom content for our listeners. That's also in the show notes as well. Thank you, Mike. It has been such a pleasure being here with you. Hey y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if?

Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.ca. Wayfair, every style, every home. We spend a lot of time chasing happiness and joy, excitement, gratitude,

all those emotions that make us feel good. But what about the emotions we don't like to take. talk about, but don't feel so great. Shame, jealousy, regret. You know the ones. We tend to treat them like flaws, as if having those emotions means something is wrong with us. But what if those difficult emotions aren't problems to eliminate? What if they're actually trying to tell us something important? As uncomfortable as they can be, those darker emotions may hold some of the deepest insight into who we are, what we fear, what we value, and what we need. Here to explore why our most troubling emotions may actually contain wisdom is Daniel Smith. He's a psychotherapist whose writings

have appeared in The Atlantic, the New York Times Magazine, and the New Yorker. And he is author of the book, Hard Feelings, Finding the Wisdom in Our Darkest Emotions. Hi, Daniel, welcome to something you should know. Hi, thanks so much for having me. So as I mentioned, we often think of those negative emotions as flaws in us, and we would like to suppress them, and you think that's not necessarily such a great idea. So make your case for that. Help me understand why we should embrace these emotions. I suppose if there's a case to be made, it's that these emotions that we've come to think of as negative are aspects of ourselves that are in terms. that are useful, that are full of information, and that we should stop trying to solve for them.

We should stop trying to sort of cleave them off from ourselves and spend time trying to understand what it is they're trying to tell us, what role they play in our lives, what they can tell us about ourselves and about the difficulties of living. And will you name those emotions or some of those emotions that we're talking about specifically? Anger, shame, despair, boredom, envy. I mean, envy can be a really good one to talk about because it's invade against in moral education. It's invade against in religious education. Envy is the thing that leads to destruction and pain and violence in religious texts. and we are taught or have been taught in the past that this is something we want to not feel.

There's an old Buddhist parable about the second arrow. The first arrow is the pain that you feel in the course of a life. Someone comes along. They have something that makes you feel envious. They have a beautiful spouse or a well-ordered home or a lot of money or a great career, and you feel envy. The second arrow is the thought or the feeling, I shouldn't be feeling envious.

It is a bad thing to feel envious, and I need to sort of cure myself of envy. And I think that's where the pain comes in, not the feeling of the envy. These emotions are universal. We can't cure ourselves of them, but the feeling that I should be feeling bad about feeling bad.

That's the thing that that I think causes the most pain. As I listen to you say that, I mean, one of the reasons that I think I would try to avoid envy and get rid of it is I see no value in it. I mean, it doesn't do me any good, so why have it? I'm not sure that it does no good, but just to start at the first part, let's say it didn't do you any good. It's still there. Every culture in the world, every culture we know. know about has some of experience of envy and has ways collectively to cope with envy.

But we feel it. So you may not say that it's not useful, but it is there. That's just the first part. The second part is that whether or not these things have use, whether they're all practically useful. They do lead us to some understanding of what it means to be alive. If you're going to live live among other people, you're going to have to contend with that part of yourself that compares. And envy is a sort of outgrowth of that very natural human impulse to compare your state to someone else's. So what are you going to do about that? Well, I hear what you're

saying that we're going to feel envy because we feel envy. But we have a choice whether to be consumed by that envy and really focus in on it and dwell on it or acknowledge it and move on. I mean, just like with anger. I mean, there's an emotion that people wish often that they didn't have, but we get angry. But some people have a real anger problem. And just getting angry at an appropriate time seems very different than somebody who just explodes all the time over little things

those seem like two different things yeah it is I mean it really depends on whether you're feeling the thing alone or whether you're feeling it and acting on it I mean what I find

in my work as a psychotherapist is that a lot of people are experiencing pain, not because they're acting on their emotions, but simply because they're feeling it. But, you know, I concede the point that there are different degrees of these emotions. I personally am less prone to anger and rage than I am to annoyance. I have a sort of strong, what the psychologists call an annoyance-proneness. And sometimes I act on that. I usually don't. Usually the only person it really hurts as myself, and finding some way to accept that I am someone who gets annoyed.

I'm not sure there's any way ever that I'm going to find a way to not be an easily irritated person. The alleviation of the pain might be simply to accept the fact that I'm someone who gets annoyed pretty easily, and then move on. I mean, what happens is we very often feel these things and we grab onto them. We sort of latch onto them as a problem. And the thing to do, the thing to learn is to how to notice the emotions. I'm feeling annoyed right now. Now I can move on with my day or with the moment or something like that. I don't need to dive into it.

Now I'm going to let it go. Here it is. And I'm not going to continue along that line. But here's the thing, though, you could accept your annoyance, that you are prone to annoyance as am I, and accept it and get on with your day. But it has an effect on other people. They don't, oh, they got to tiptoe around you because, oh, we don't want to annoy Daniel.

He's going to get all annoyed. So there's consequences to it. It isn't just accepted and move on. Other people have to deal with it, and that affects your relationship with those people. I take that point as well. But again, I have not found a way in my own life to be less annoyed aside from the one I'm talking about. I mean, when I think about annoyance, the annoyance for me is often about the small things in life, the kind of misdemeanors. And it's often about control. I wish that I can control my environment. I wish that that that

person wouldn't be trying to cut me off in traffic. I could get very annoyed at that. And in the moment I do, it happens. The first arrow happens. I could recognize that what's happening is I am getting bothered by the fact that I do not have control over this situation. I don't have control over the behavior of other human beings. Getting in touch with what actually the emotion is.

For example, if I'm feeling envious of someone, I don't often call it envy. I just feel this distress. I feel this discomfort. Once I tune into the fact that it's actually envy, I can call it envy, and I could recognize that it's about my feeling that I'm missing something that this other person has,

that I'm experiencing some lack. Then you could kind of field test it, and you could say, well, okay, I'm feeling envious. Does that person really have? something that I need in order to feel whole. Once you know the emotion, then you usually feel a lot less distressed about it. I said a few minutes ago when we were talking about envy that I don't see the value in it. I don't see the value in feeling envy. And you push back a little bit and said, but you're going to feel it. And it is an emotion. It's a universal emotion. People feel

envy and we need to acknowledge that. But it does seem that the value part of the equation is important. And it does seem like some of these emotions don't really have much value. And by value, that they don't serve me. To feel these and get wrapped up in these negative emotions, in many cases, don't serve me, and therefore they have no value. When I think about regret, regret is always an emotion that I wonder, maybe there's no value to this one at all. Maybe this one's just a glitch, because regret is essentially a desire for a time machine. Regret is, I wish I could turn back time and do it differently. And I have trouble finding any value, really in regret.

Remorse, guilt, these things have a kind of healing function. But regret seems to be a kind of person. pure fantasy and and also addictive to boot yeah i haven't thought of it that way but you're right i mean regret is pretty useless it's the you know if i knew then what i know now i wouldn't have done that well yeah too late yeah yeah there's no there's no value here there's there's no value except in hearing what you're doing and remembering that there's no value in it and that usually you can actually still change things. You can still adjust your circumstances.

You can still act. Regret tells you that you can turn back time and change the situation. And it could be in an imaginative sense kind of addictive because you can go back and imagine the way things could have been. What you're not doing during that imagination is remembering and recognizing that you could usually still change your own lot. You could still make amends. You can still move forward.

You can still change your life. You get stuck in regret. People get stuck in regret. And I could be prone to this as well. You're just not remembering that. But maybe regret can be a teacher. Well, I won't do that again. It doesn't seem to work that way.

I think it's because my understanding of regret is you do, in fact, somehow, go. back in your mind to this thing and replay it in your head. And that somehow reduces the distress. I don't think we often think of it this way, but my understanding of regret, having done a deep dive into it, is that's what happens. You're distressed about your current circumstances. You go back in time in your own head. And that makes you feel better for a moment. But then, of course, you have to wake up to where you are again.

And you feel even more distressed because here you are, like waking from a dream. And then you have to go back into the regret again. So regret has an addictive quality. I don't know if people who are prone to regret who it actually helps them. Like, I don't think actually people learn very much from their regrets. They seem to just get caught in them. So help me understand something, because, I can imagine someone listening to this might think, well, wait a minute.

He's saying he gets annoyed, and so he's accepting that as that's what happens to him. And you could take someone who gets really angry. But there are consequences to that. People feel that anger. People feel that annoyance from you. And are we supposed to just go, oh, well, you know, I'm prone to outbursts and screaming and yelling, but that's just me. And I'm not going to try to fix that.

I'm just going to try to accept that. No, I hear what you're saying, and I don't think I'm saying that at all. I'm certainly not endorsing acting on these emotions. If you're someone who gets angry a lot and you're screaming at your family and it's causing problems interpersonally, it's causing problems in your relationships, absolutely learn to contain your outbursts, learn to find ways to alleviate your anger. But that usually doesn't mean erasing it. That usually doesn't mean becoming someone who has sort of banished or cured anger in your life.

it usually means, at least in clinical terms, understanding why you've become someone who gets so easily angry. Usually anger is trying to tell you that you feel easily demeaned. You're not just someone who gets angry. You're someone who feels threatened by abandonment. You're someone who feels threatened by being engulfed by other people. You're someone who feels like your voice isn't listened to or that other people don't understand you. The anger itself is a solution, a bad solution, usually if you're acting on it to some other problem.

So talk about shame because that's one that people don't talk about much at all. I imagine everybody, probably everybody has something in their past they feel shame about. And I never heard anyone really discuss the topic, so discuss the topic. Shame is a little bit different from guilt, from which it usually needs to be distinguished. Guilt is the feeling that I've done something wrong. Shame is the feeling and the belief that I am wrong. Shame is a kind of totalizing emotion. It's about being seen and being seen as fundamentally wrong, fundamentally off.

There's something inherently problematic and dirty about the self itself. The prototypical response to shame is to hide. people who experience shame usually respond to it in one of two ways either they become enraged because if you become enraged then you could scare others away and get them to stop seeing you

for what you know yourself to be which is wrong or dissociation and hiding a sort of blanking out of the self people who become ashamed often have trouble thinking straight. The thing that interests me most about shame

is the way it transmits between people, usually within families. You can have overtly shaming parents who keep telling you that you're bad. Or you can have a sort of shame environment. This is the thing that really interests me about emotion. and in particular about shame is the way that you could take them on almost by osmosis.

You could learn from from the ways other people, usually your care givers, the ways that they live and operate emotionally and adopt those ways. Shame, I think, that happens most powerfully. If you have parents who feel powerful shame, you can grow up in an environment. where you then will without knowing why, learn that shame is a natural response to normal flaws in your own life or your own way of being, normal difficulties. There's a psychiatrist who has discussed shame as an implosion of the self. And that's always resonated with me. So what do we do with all of this?

I mean, given your perspective on this, what is it you want people to walk away with and go, oh, okay, now I, now I, now that's helpful. What I want is for people to accept that their emotional lives are not made worse, but in fact enriched by having even the darker and shadowy parts, that they're natural, inextinguishable aspects of what it means to be human. I believe very deeply that suffering is compounded

by the belief that there are wrong parts of the cell. I don't want people to be morbid or always thinking about their quote-unquote negative selves. I just want people, including myself, to be honest. I feel envy now. I feel shame. I feel regret. I feel angry. I feel sad. I feel lost. Once you name these things, once you can talk about them, once you could reflect on them, you're going to feel better. Well, it is a topic that I think a lot of us turn away from. We don't want to dig too deep. We just as soon ignore them or push them away. But these emotions, the negative emotions are, as you say, they're important because they are there. I've been speaking with Daniel Smith.

He is a psychotherapist and author of the book, Hard Feelings, Finding the Wisdom in Our Darkest Emotions. And there's a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Daniel, thank you. Thanks, Mike. I really appreciate all your time. It was really nice to be here. Have you ever noticed that someone can actually become more attractive

the longer you interact with them? Science says that may be because attractive, isn't just about looks, it's also about attention and connection. Newer research using eye-tracking technology has found that the faces people focus on the most are often judged as more attractive. In other words, attention itself appears to boost attraction. And there's more. Studies also show that people who seem emotionally in sync with us, mirroring our rhythms, expressions, or behavior, are rated as more appealing. appealing and desirable.

Researchers say attraction may work less like a lightning bolt and more like a spotlight. The more mentally and emotionally engaged you become with someone, the more attractive they can appear over time. So maybe love isn't always at first sight. Sometimes it's at second site or third or tenth. And that is something you should know. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with someone you know. The player that you're listening to this on most likely has a share function and it's easy to do.

It helps us. It helps us grow our audience and we appreciate it. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Hey, it's Hillary Frank from The Longest Shortest Time, an award-winning podcast about parenthood and reproductive health. There is so much going on right now in the world of reproductive health and we're covering it all. birth control, pregnancy, gender, bodily autonomy, menopause, consent, sperm, so many stories about sperm, and of course, the joys and absurdities of raising kids of all ages. If you're new to the show,

check out an episode called The Staircase. It's a personal story of mine about trying to get my kids' school to teach sex ed. Spoiler, I get it to happen, but not at all in the way that I wanted. We also talk to plenty of non-parents, so you don't have to be a parent. parent to listen. If you like surprising, funny, poignant stories about human relationships and, you know, periods, the longest shortest time is for you. Find us in any podcast app or at longest shortest time.com.