Something You Should Know - How to Tell What Someone is REALLY Thinking & The Mystery and Lore of Shipwrecks

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Starting point is 00:00:17 You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, when it comes to love and romance, do opposites attract or not? Then, want to know what someone else is really thinking? Learn the clues to look for to figure it out. For instance, let's say Jack and Jill walk out of a restaurant at the end of a first date. what someone else is really thinking? Learn the clues to look for to figure it out.

Starting point is 00:00:45 For instance. Let's say Jack and Jill walk out of a restaurant at the end of a first date, and Jill casually asks Jack, where do we park our car? Where did we park our car? We and our, that's one marker that tells us that she's interested in Jack.

Starting point is 00:01:00 Also, a lot of people get food poisoning. I'll tell you the foods that are most likely to cause it. And shipwrecks. That word conjures up images of pirates and treasure and the Titanic. So how many shipwrecks are there? Good question. There is an estimate that there are 3 million shipwrecks on Earth, which is a lot more than I would have thought.

Starting point is 00:01:21 That's just an estimate. Some researchers think there could be as many as 30 million. All this today on Something You Should Know. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like Something You Should Know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most.

Starting point is 00:01:53 Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back.

Starting point is 00:02:25 And in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hey there. Welcome. I'm sure you probably know a couple or you've seen a couple or run into people where in this couple there are two people

Starting point is 00:03:06 who are seemingly nothing alike, yet they seem content, which plays into this idea that opposites attract. But in romance, do opposites often attract? Is there anything to that old adage? Well, according to some research, not really. Actually, it's just the opposite of opposites attract. It turns out most of us actually seek out people who think and act like we do. A study by the National Academy of Sciences found that people who considered themselves attractive wanted a similarly attractive partner. If they considered themselves attractive, wanted a similarly attractive partner. If they considered themselves wealthy, they were usually not yearning for someone poor. The similarity attractiveness factor went beyond looks and wealth. Those people with strong family values or religious beliefs felt more comfortable with like-minded people,

Starting point is 00:04:06 while free spirits, they seemed to get along together just fine. And the same held true for levels of anxiety, agreeableness, extroversion, and intelligence. So, opposites don't really attract, at least not very often, and that is something you should know. Have you ever talked with someone and wondered, what are they really thinking? Who is this person really? And what do they really want from you? Well, there are some clues, if you know what to look for.

Starting point is 00:04:39 And here to explain what those clues are is David J. Lieberman. David is a psychotherapist who has authored several books, including Mind Reader, the new science of deciphering what people really think, what they really want, and who they really are. Hey David, welcome. Thanks for coming on Something You Should Know. Thanks Mike, great to be with you. So introduce us to this topic, because obviously you can't really read someone's mind. So what are these clues? Why do we know this works? Just kind of in broad strokes, explain it. Of course. So if you think about it, human nature hasn't changed in however many thousands of years, but communication has. Now you've got Twitter and a lot of social media takes place, a lot of conversations takes place over social media. And now with the advent of COVID, the ways and the means of reading people,

Starting point is 00:05:29 the traditional methods have pretty much gone out of the window. So the field of psycholinguistics, which is a branch of linguistics and psychology, and it's part of the field of the cognitive sciences, shows us how to glean what somebody is really thinking and feeling, their attitudes, their values, based on the language that they use. So give me an example of how this works in real life, something specific. So we'll start with just sort of one marker to pay attention to. So we'll look at pronouns, pronouns such as I, me, mine, and my. A pronoun can indicate when a person is committed to and confident about their

Starting point is 00:06:05 statement. And when they use a pronoun, statistically speaking, there's a greater likelihood that they believe what they're saying is true. For example, I can say, I really liked your presentation, or I loved what you said in the meeting. I could also say, nice presentation, or Mike, it looks like you did a lot of research. Now, in both of those cases, I'm saying essentially the same thing, but the subtext is different. In the second case, I'm removing myself, the linguistic I, from the equation. Now, you don't want to rely just on one marker, but if there are five, six, seven, eight within a single sentence, then you can more clearly put someone into a specific category. Yeah. Well, that's interesting. But couldn't

Starting point is 00:06:45 it just be that someone doesn't want to be too committed to this, too invested in this, so they leave the word I out and just say, you know, nice job. It's not that they don't think it was a nice job. They just don't want to over commit to it. So you're raising a great point. And again, that's what goes to the nuances here. The research also tells us that extroverts are more likely to use I than an introvert who will naturally detach themselves. And that's exactly why you don't want to read too much into a single marker. Let me give you another quick example. Let's say Jack and Jill walk out of a restaurant at the end of a first date, right? And Jill casually asks Jack, where do we park our car? Now, a seemingly benign question, but as soon as Jill uses our car, where did we park our car,

Starting point is 00:07:38 we and our, once again, she begins to identify themselves as a pair. Now, she could easily say, where do you park your car? And it doesn't mean that she doesn't like Jack. But as soon as we hear the words we and our, we recognize that that's one marker that tells us that she's interested in Jack. So you're right. You don't want to put too much emphasis on one or two, but if you've got six, seven, eight in a single sentence, then you can get a really good snapshot of what this person is really thinking and feeling in spite of what they may be saying. Are there any general clues in a conversation, not because they use a particular word like I or our, but just a sense of the conversation as to what's going on in their head? Or is it down to particular words in particular sentences? Right, so there are

Starting point is 00:08:29 definitely things that you are going to listen for and watch out for. There's the cadence, the tone, the rhythm, a lot goes into the linguistic factor other than simply the language that they use and certainly it's not limited to pronouns and you can tell for example whether somebody's nature is more confrontational or less so simply by how they use verbs for example you walk into a store and or you are you meeting someone whatever it is and the person moves the verb tense forward you're likely dealing with somebody who has a more easygoing nature that's less confrontational you're ringing up a person purchase and the person says that will be seven dollars and eighty-eight cents versus you owe seven dollars and eighty eight cents or that is you ask

Starting point is 00:09:17 somebody in the store where you'll find a particular item they respond with it's there it's over there versus you should find it over there. As soon as they move the verb tense forward, or sometimes in the past, I'm sorry, what did you say your name was? Rather than, what's your name? We know we're dealing with a certain personality type. And again, one marker doesn't reveal too much, but five, six, seven gives us an entirely different snapshot of the person. So what is the difference between what's your name and what did you say your name was? When we are interested in connection over confrontation, we likely move the verb forward or back because being more direct for some personality types can be seen as almost a

Starting point is 00:10:02 verbal attack, right? What's your name? Rather than what was your name again? Even if you never heard the person's name, we know people like this, right? They'll speak and they're certainly very polite, but it also reveals a certain nature. You meet someone for the first time, they say, I'm sorry, what was your name? Rather than what's your name? That simple verb tense tells us that they want to avoid confrontation and they're more interested in connection. Doesn't a lot of this depend on the nature of the relationship and also just that sometimes people say things just to be polite that may be hiding what they really think? Spot on, which is why you want to be careful not to rely on a single sentence, a single text. I always encourage

Starting point is 00:10:45 my classes to, and in the books, is to look at a larger sample size because you want to get a snapshot of the personality and the traits rather than particular states. Having said that, what this does allow you to do is also to see what the state is, meaning that if a person has one personality trait that may be more confrontational and then you see a switch to a more connection or less confrontational, then you can assume this person now feels lower status, which goes to your other point. Absolutely. Status in the relationship plays a very big role. Once again, just going back to pronouns, research shows that the higher status person is less

Starting point is 00:11:30 likely to use the I because an I can sometimes refer to an insecurity or reveal an insecurity, and a person who is of higher status is more other-focused. They're more likely to use the word you rather than me or my. And that's one way to sort of get a snapshot into the status of that relationship. What about just, you know, a person's mood? I mean, I might be more willing to say, what's your name? If I'm in kind of a grumpy mood and want to move this along, as opposed to trying to create a connection here and because I'm maybe you know didn't get much sleep or you know whatever the reason that that mood kind of

Starting point is 00:12:09 drives this somewhat no no yes yes perfect and again right I've got a whole you know sort of mood matrix which actually factors that in because that's exactly the point in other words I want to know if I'm dealing with somebody who's just in a negative space right now, but is an otherwise very polite and healthy, emotionally solid person. What's also interesting, though, is you'll find that in this mood matrix is that a person who is in a good mood, and there are certainly ways to intuit that as well as ways through language to understand that. A person who's in a good mood who treats other people poorly is an indication of very poor emotional health. Now, as you aptly point out, if you could be, you're entitled to be in a lousy mood every now and again, and if you may be a little bit gruff or direct with somebody, that doesn't tell us that you're not emotionally healthy. But if you're in a positive mood or not you, if somebody is in a positive mood and they treat

Starting point is 00:13:08 other people poorly, that is a very strong indication of poor emotional health. And what do you do with that though? I mean, if they have poor emotional health? You run. Right. But that's just it. It's interesting. And we can kind of think about those people who, when they're in a good space, they're still disrespectful to the people around them. They're still rude. They're still sort of self-absorbed. Now, generally speaking, as our mood decreases, we're naturally going to become more self-absorbed in our language and our actions. I mean, imagine, you know, you get a toothache and, you know, all the world's problems go out of the window because of that self-absorption. You're naturally absorbed in your own pain.

Starting point is 00:13:52 So a person who is emotionally unwell is naturally absorbed in their own emotional pain and they're more self-focused. But when they're not in a negative mood, they're in a positive space, we would like to see them being more expansive. And when they act rudely or poorly to other people, that's why we have an indication of poor emotional health. We are talking about how to figure out what people really think, what they really want. My guest is David Lieberman. He's author of the book Mind Reader, The New Science of Deciphering What People Really Think, what they really want, and who they really are. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a co-founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce.

Starting point is 00:14:34 That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lightning, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. During her journey, Isla meets new friends, including King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, and learns valuable life lessons with every quest, sword fight, and dragon ride. Positive and uplifting stories remind us all about the importance of kindness, friendship, honesty, and positivity. Join me and an all-star cast of actors, including Liam Neeson, Emily Blunt,

Starting point is 00:15:05 Kristen Bell, Chris Hemsworth, among many others, in welcoming the Search for the Silver Lining podcast to the Go Kid Go network by listening today. Look for the Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. People who listen to something you should know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to, called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology.

Starting point is 00:15:53 That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. So, David, how does what you've been talking about up till now how does that transfer to written language great so it is similar but you want to take the person's uh whether or not it's their first language into account also true with oral expression as well you want you know a person who

Starting point is 00:16:41 is communicating in a language that's not their primary language, not their first language, is going to speak and write differently. But the best part is that it translates almost entirely from written expression to oral and back, which is why you can analyze even a voice recording someone leaves for you, a text that they send you, an email, have the luxury of time without interaction, without engagement. And so what are some of those things that you would look for? I mean, obviously what you've been talking about, but what else? What are some of the other, you've talked about the pronouns and the moving the tense forward and back, but what are some of those other little things to look for? Sure. So there are things like qualifiers and retractors. Qualifiers are words such as I think, I wonder, maybe, I guess. And then there are what we call linguistic retractors. They're meant to take back or undo what we just expressed. They're called reversal expressions,

Starting point is 00:17:37 such as but, although, however, nevertheless, and so on. So we know that a person who uses a high degree of both qualifiers and retractors is exhibiting greater anxiety. Again, it could be a state because of the moment, or if they have a pattern of that syntax, then it speaks to a personality trait. So an example of that sentence would sound like, I think that's a good idea, but although I wonder about, and so on. And once again, as you begin to hear these patterns, we think of people who exhibit them, but we might not always realize what it is that is going on. So again, high qualifiers and high retractors, tell us this is somebody who may be anxious. Talk about the art of reading the bluff, because I think most of us think we're

Starting point is 00:18:26 pretty good at reading a bluff, but maybe not. So I'd like to hear what you say about that. Right. One of the most valuable, exciting aspects about reading somebody is to know whether or not they're bluffing or whether or not they're sincere. And this comes all the time, whether it's a negotiation, an arbitration, a poker game, whatever it is. So while there are a myriad of layers to go through, one very important thing to pay attention to is what's called impression management. And here's the thing. A person who is bluffing is always going to give a false impression, but they end go overboard. For example, let me give you an example. Are you a poker player at all?

Starting point is 00:19:09 Yeah, I mean, not sure. I'm not very good, but I know the rules of the game. Got it. So let's say you wanted to bluff, right? You've got a lousy hand and you wanted to bluff. Are you more inclined to put the money into the pot quickly or slowly? Quickly to send the signal that I'm very confident about this bet. Right. Exactly right. So intuitively, like your intuitive sense sort of kicked in, you realize

Starting point is 00:19:36 that a person who's bluffing is going to want to give the impression that they're secure in the hand, which means they're going to put the money the money in very quickly now if you realize what's going on here is that is the person who is bluffing new whether again it's a negotiation or a arbitration a confrontation it's the one who acts the opposite of what it is that they want you to see for example let me just give you another let's say you've got a suspect who has been accused of a crime if they're busy picking lint of of their you know trousers and I taking up a lot of space and

Starting point is 00:20:15 seeming very relaxed that is a dead giveaway that they're guilty why because a person who's wrongly accused would not be engaging in such sort of casual behaviors. But this person wants to do what? They want to give the impression that they're not concerned, that they're not interested. The only problem is, is that a person who's genuinely innocent would not be doing those things. So they give a false impression and they almost always go overboard. If you look for it, it is glaringly obvious. But then if you know this stuff, can't you twist it around and say, well, see, I know,

Starting point is 00:20:54 you know, because David says, if I put my money in too fast, that means that I'm confident. So I'm going to put it in too slow. And now I fooled you. Right. Good. So two things. Number one is it's human nature. Even though I know how the techniques work, they're still used on me because you have to be on guard and pay attention consistently and constantly.

Starting point is 00:21:12 And a person is going to get tripped up because it's not just one thing. It is paying attention to the language, the rhythm, the cadence, how you're coming across, how you're not coming across. If it's impossible for me to do, and I wrote the book, it's going to be very difficult for most other people to do. Let's talk about body language, because I think people have heard that if you are looking at someone's body language, you can't draw big conclusions because of one thing. If they cross their arms, that doesn't necessarily mean anything other than they cross their arms.

Starting point is 00:21:49 But I remember one thing I heard, in fact, it might have been from you in an earlier conversation we had, that like, if you want to know what someone is thinking, look in a conversation, look to which way their feet are pointing. If they're pointing at the person that they're talking to, then they're interested in the conversation. If their feet are pointed somewhere else, like out the door, they're probably not. Yes, for sure. And it does say, yeah, I wrote about that in a different book. And that is that body language comes into play in what's called unguarded conversations, meaning if the person is not paying attention to what they're doing, and that's because of this field called embodied cognition, which in broad strokes explains that our body language reflects how we are feeling and our emotions,

Starting point is 00:22:37 and it sort of manifests from that. Where body language is poorly used is when a person knows that they're being watched specifically, meaning that they're going to avoid doing those things to get themselves away. But if you're in an unguarded conversation with somebody, meaning that they're not worried about how they are presenting themselves, then certainly yes. Whether or not they're angled towards you or away from the door, arms crossed is something to pay attention to. Whether they're leaning towards you or leaning away, I found that to be very telling. Sometimes a person who's uncomfortable with the conversation will begin to put up little roadblocks, barriers,

Starting point is 00:23:15 pillows, glass cups, anything to create sort of a small little division, a border, a boundary between you and the other person. So yeah, body language, again, can come into play, but particularly in the age of Zoom, in the age of masks with COVID, and because of people's familiarity with it, I think that we just need more sophisticated tactics. Well, we've been talking about what people are really thinking, what they're really after, what they really want, what about when someone's lying to you? I mean, it does seem related to this, that it's certainly hard to know what somebody wants if they're lying to you. So how, if you have some advice, how do you determine if you're dealing with a liar? A couple of things linguistically to pay attention to is one, as we just mentioned at the beginning, is a person who is lying is likely not to use the I,

Starting point is 00:24:12 me, my. You're going to see they're going to be very happy when the conversation ends. You're not going to notice a lot of enthusiasm in what it is that they're saying. They're not going to use a lot of adjectives. And they're going to try to move the conversation past the point of what it is that they did. So let me give you a quick example. One of the techniques I have is called allude, don't accuse. And this is when you want to find out if somebody's up to something when they may not be so honest. One of the biggest mistakes we make when trying to get the truth is we accuse the other person of doing something wrong. So let's say you've got a hospital administrator that thinks that one of her doctors may be drinking on duty, right? Now, what she would do is she'd bring up a casual, casually bring up about a similar situation and she watches how that person

Starting point is 00:25:02 handles it. So for example, she would say something like, you know, Dr. Marcus, I'd like to get your opinion. There's a doctor at another hospital who may be having a problem drinking while on duty. Any ideas how we can best approach him? Now, if he's not guilty of the same behavior, he's going to be very interested that we sought out his advice. He's going to talk about it, ask questions, but we're going to notice instantly bringing up a similar scenario. If he becomes uncomfortable, looks to change the subject, gives a quick assurance that he would never do something like that. Now you're dealing with somebody who you've likely hit that sort of raw nerve and may very well be engaging in that very same behavior. Well, I've enjoyed this conversation because you've given me and everyone listening some very specific strategies to help understand what people want, what they're getting at, what they're thinking, which will hopefully result in better outcomes.

Starting point is 00:25:56 David Lieberman has been my guest. He's a psychotherapist and author of several books, including Mind Reader, the new science of deciphering what people really think, what they really want, and who they really are. And there's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Appreciate you coming on, David. This was interesting. I appreciate that. You've got a tremendous show, and I love speaking with you.

Starting point is 00:26:17 Thank you so much, Mike. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover.

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Starting point is 00:27:25 New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. I think you'll agree that there is this kind of collective fascination with shipwrecks. I guess because the topic is all wrapped up in tales of pirates and treasure and war stories, and then there's the Titanic. But why are we so interested? Why are there movies and songs and books about shipwrecks that seem to capture our imagination? And just how many shipwrecks are there? And what would happen if you found one? Is it yours to claim? Here to discuss all this is Daniel Stone, who is a writer on science, history, and the environment. He's a former staff writer for National Geographic, and he's author of a book called Sinkable, Obsession,

Starting point is 00:28:18 the Deep Sea, and the Shipwreck of the Titanic. Hey Daniel, welcome. Hi, thanks for having me. So what do you think is this fascination people like you have with shipwrecks? There's a lot of unanswered questions. There's a lot of mystery that comes with old things that are buried deep, that are out of reach that involved wild tales of valor and bravery and cowardice. And that's before you add in things like buried treasure and lost gold and, you know, bodies of people that are on the seabed. So, you know, it has these elements of human emotion that I think altogether just make for great storytelling. And of all the shipwrecks there have been, and I don't know how many there, well, how many have there been?

Starting point is 00:29:09 Well, good question. There is an estimate from UNESCO that they released about a decade ago that there are 3 million shipwrecks on Earth, which is a lot more than I would have thought. Maybe you would have thought too. You know, I could probably name two dozen shipwrecks off the top of my head and that's about it. But when you think of the entire history

Starting point is 00:29:29 of humans on the planet, traveling mostly by boat, right, for thousands of years, it adds up quite quickly. And that's just an estimate. Some researchers think there could be as many as 30 million in all of our oceans, lakes, and rivers worldwide. And how many of them have been found? Very few. I mean, very few that we even know exist, right? There are enormous eras of shipwrecks, and particularly slave era shipwrecks, that sailed across the Atlantic or in other eras across the Pacific and just sank, right? These are wooden boats that were primitively built, not great, you know, construction to begin with,

Starting point is 00:30:11 three, 400 years ago or longer, and they're gone. And the people they were carrying are gone. And there's almost no historical record for the vast majority of shipwrecks, over 80%. Certainly the most, probably the most popular of all shipwrecks, if there were a top 10 chart, is the Titanic. So why is that? Why is Titanic such a big deal? I have spent a lot of time thinking of this question, and I have a theory, which, like you said, is not a compellingly unique new shipwreck, or even in its day. There's very little about the Titanic that is different from other ships, especially in its era, right? Ships had been built bigger and bigger in the late 19th century. We had big steamships that catered to rich people and were very ornate and decorated very nicely. We had ships that hit icebergs for decades also.

Starting point is 00:31:12 In fact, iceberg strikes were so common in the 1890s and 1880s that by the early 20th century, the number of iceberg strikes recorded was actually going down. So icebergs were becoming less of a problem. I think the reason the Titanic has kind of risen to the top and stayed there all of these years is a kind of weird quirk of numbers, of statistics. It's an odd ratio in that we know that 1,500 people died on the Titanic, but also about 700 people lived, right? And that's kind of an odd spread for a shipwreck. Usually everybody dies or most people live. But those numbers, 1,500 died, but the 700 people who lived, they were mostly young women and children who ended up living another 50, 60, 70 years. And in that time, they told and retold the stories from that night. It kept the storytelling alive from the Titanic. It kept the details in newspapers and in books,

Starting point is 00:32:23 and eventually in movies. And we have kind of this resurgence every 40 to 50 years of the Titanic storytelling. And that more than any physical characteristic about the ship or how it was built or how it went down is what I really think has kept this story at the very top of shipwreck lore as long as it's been gone. But also it seems that that whole notion that the Titanic was unsinkable and then on its maiden voyage, it sinks. I mean, there is something, there's something. It's rich. I give you that. It's very rich. The other ships had been called unsinkable. I mean, you can imagine ships had been built of wood for most of all of human history. And when we develop a way to make steel and make ships out of steel, and you get these

Starting point is 00:33:11 iron-hulled ships that are real strong and eventually they become steel, you can imagine people in the 16th and 17th century say, oh, now we have much stronger hulls. These are never going to sink, right? And we have that today. We think of the cruise ships we get on as being practically unsinkable. So the idea of a ship not being able to sink is kind of timeless. It's always been there. It's especially rich with the Titanic that it sank on the maiden voyage, first time ever. That's kind of unique, but ships have long been considered unsinkable until they sink. Is there an area on the planet where there are a high concentration

Starting point is 00:33:53 of shipwrecks or are they just scattered all over the place? No, there are very dense concentrations in places you would historically expect. And by that, I mean places where there have been a lot of ships and ship activity, chiefly around the UK. The UK for about two, 300 years was this dominant ship building and colonizing force of the planet. So they sent out more ships to more parts of the planet. A lot of them sank, especially around the UK. When we go forward in history, World War I, a lot of those wrecks are in the North Atlantic. World War II wrecks are in the Atlantic and of course, parts of the Pacific. And so if you chart these wrecks, you see these heat maps, these kind of bright spots that light up. Most of them are in the

Starting point is 00:34:43 Northern Hemisphere because most people live in the Northern Hemisphere. And that's where most ships connect people across oceans. What is the general consensus about if you find a shipwreck? Is it yours to pick over? This is a legal question that gets out a lot of the quirks of ships, namely that a ship could be built in one country, registered in another country, traveling between two other countries, and carrying citizens or goods of a whole bunch of other countries. So there are legal squabbles over shipwrecks all the time, and especially when there's valuable stuff on board, right? If there's $500 million in gold, suddenly everybody's interested. But there are laws of the sea. There are laws about what's in what country's

Starting point is 00:35:39 jurisdiction based on the distance from its shoreline. But ships that go down in open water, right? And the Titanic was one of these. This was not around a particular country. This was in the middle of the ocean. Get these kind of legal debates over who owns the wreck and who is responsible for salvaging it, who can get the valuable material on board. And if the bodies are collected of people who died, which country do they go to? Where are they buried? Who's responsible for finding them? These are big legal questions

Starting point is 00:36:12 that are constantly being debated by courts of different countries and never really get to a firm, definitive answer. So what's your favorite shipwreck? I like the Essex. If you haven't heard of the Essex, this is one of the favorite shipwreck? I like the Essex. If you haven't heard of the Essex, this is one of the great shipwreck stories of all time. This happened in 1820. It was a Nantucket whaling ship called the Essex that was hunting whales in the South Pacific.

Starting point is 00:36:40 A sperm whale rammed its bow into the ship and, and the crew escaped. They escaped into a small boat and they end up on this Island in the South Pacific called Henderson in the Pitcairn Islands. And they basically survive on cannibalism. And they, they, they, there's this law of the sea, it's called the custom of the sea where, you know, if you're ever on a deserted island, or at least in those days, you draw lots to see who would be killed to feed the others. And the story of the Essex is so primal, right? This ship that's whaling, this whale that gets angry, these people who are driven to the very end of their rope. And it becomes so ubiquitous in its day. I mean, this happened in 1820. And by 1851, it's basically as famous then as the Titanic is today. Everyone on the planet has heard of the

Starting point is 00:37:35 Essex. And it inspires this New York writer named Herman Melville to write a book about it, kind of a fictional based on loosely fictionalized account that now we know is called Moby Dick, which is famous in its own right. But the shipwreck itself is kind of one of those like classic primal wrecks. Of the shipwrecks we know about, are any of them shrouded in mystery? We don't know what happened, even though we know it sank. There are a few. There are shipwrecks that are known as ghost ships. One's found in... This was common in the 17th and 18th century when you had kind of folklore but not much

Starting point is 00:38:17 journalistic confirmation of why ships went down. Ships that would be found floating with nobody on them, or ships that would be upturned and every single person on board would be alive but couldn't remember exactly what happened. Those are called ghost ships. They're kind of a ghost story genre of shipwreck lore. And most of them are rooted in good storytelling and rumoring more than confirmed details. Is looking for shipwrecks a business, a profession? Absolutely. And depending on what you consider worth your time is basically what amounts to whether a shipwreck is worth getting, right? There are wrecks and there's the chief one I'm

Starting point is 00:39:01 thinking of is called the Flor de la Mar. It sank in 1502. It was a ship from Spain, bringing back goods from all of Spain's colonies in mostly the Indian Ocean. And it was returning back to Spain with basically about one to two billion, with a B, dollars of gold on it. You could imagine that kind of haul would attract any shipwreck hunter on earth. And it has, that shipwreck has not been found. It's still kind of waiting to be discovered. Since the Titanic went down, I would imagine that when that happened, that that became the point at which things changed in terms of lifeboats and life jackets and all of that. The Titanic was actually a major force in changing laws about safety at sea.

Starting point is 00:39:52 Almost immediately after the Titanic sank in 1913 and 1914, we see Congress and other countries, including the UK, which of course is where the Titanic sailed from, changed their laws, chiefly for lifeboats. There have to be enough lifeboats on board. There are changes in ship speed and ship navigation and how ships communicate with each other. One of my favorite kind of tidbits about the Titanic is we know it had a telegraph, right? We saw that in the movie. The telegraph was pretty new on ships, and it was so new and so exciting that there was almost no discretion how it was used. So ships would

Starting point is 00:40:32 communicate official business about icebergs ahead or the water is rough ahead. But also on the exact same channel, the rich passengers would be invited to the telegraph to basically say hello to their friends who were on a nearby ship. And they would just chit chat with the simplest of messages. Hello, good day. How are you? And that immediately stopped after the Titanic also as kind of a frivolous use of important safety equipment. Knowing how salt water, salt air, salt destroys things, corrodes things. I would imagine that a lot of shipwrecks, there isn't much left to them. Environment is everything for shipwrecks, like with anything. And sunlight and salt water are the two most corrosive forces on the planet. We know that. So ships that sink

Starting point is 00:41:25 in shallow water, especially around the equator, in the ocean, are subject to the fastest decay, right? In some cases, a year or two, a ship could be completely washed away by rust and other microbes that pick it apart. But conversely, there are parts of the planet that are completely insulated from sunlight and saltwater, right? And the best place for preserving shipwrecks is actually in the Black Sea, right? Kind of in central Eurasia. And the Black Sea is a saltwater lake, but it's much, much less salty than the world's oceans. And a lot of these, and the Black Sea is also kind of hundreds, and in some cases, more than 1000 feet deep. So in some cases, you get Roman and Greek era ships that are 3000 years old or more, that are in almost perfect condition.

Starting point is 00:42:20 I mean, they still they're made of wood, they're, you know, hand carved, and shipwrecks found in the Black Sea, some as deep as 6,000 feet deep, are still in this exact same shape when they sank thousands of years ago. So for a shipwreck to be preserved and in great shape, nothing, nowhere beats the Black Sea. So as I recall, a lot of things from the Titanic have been recovered. So when that happens, who owns them? There are a number of companies that have salvaged thousands of artifacts. And these are things like books, plates, saucers, eyeglasses that are scattered around the wreck site in a few different debris fields. And then in the 90s, there was also an effort to get a few pieces of steel from the ship,

Starting point is 00:43:11 including one major piece that was pulled up, maybe the size of a giant poster, that I believe is currently in a Titanic exhibit at the Luxor Hotel in Las Vegas. The whole notion of preserving this wreck in exactly its permanent condition kind of went out the window. But the idea of raising the wreck entirely was also deemed impossible because there's not really a wreck. I mean, there's wreckage, but it's so broken and broken down. Someone described it to me like trying to lift the twin towers after they had fallen, right? There's not much structure to them. And that's before you get two miles deep in water with all the engineering requirements.

Starting point is 00:43:58 As you're somebody who knows the true story, how accurate did the movie depict the Titanic? I mean, obviously, you know, the people, Jack and all those people were fictional. But when you watch the movie, do you laugh and go, that's not how it happened? Well, what's funny about James Cameron's movie in 1997 is, of course, it was fictionalized, right? With these characters and to add drama and the dialogue, none of that happened. But how the ship kind of hit and how long it took to sink and what people were doing is largely true. But I will say the even better movie for this came out in 1958 called A Night to Remember. And this was based on a book by Walter Lord that he wrote based on the survivor accounts, right? After the ship went down,

Starting point is 00:44:51 the US and the British government did their big inquiries and they had these lengthy transcripts with the survivors. Walter Lord takes that, he writes a best-selling book and the book becomes a movie. And the movie, which you can, you know, of course still watch, A Night to Remember, is the most accurate account of what happened on the ship. I mean, down to the dialogue, who said what, who was where. And I think what separates that movie is that it doesn't do what modern Hollywood does, which is focus on a single character that you want

Starting point is 00:45:21 to root for. The A Night to Remember movie really focuses on vignettes of here we go to this part of the ship, and now that part of the ship, and here's this part of the ship, and lets you in on different views at a time when everyone's in crisis. And so for accuracy, I'd recommend that movie more than James Cameron's. One of the things I wondered about is in James Cameron's movie, you know, the musicians that played to supposedly calm the passengers down. Was that true? Yes, absolutely. They all went down with the ship. They played until almost they couldn't play anymore. There has been great debate over what they were playing as though it matters, but also every detail about this wreck

Starting point is 00:46:03 and what happened and who was where and who said what and what the band was playing has been so dissected culturally for decades. And so it's not surprising to me that a tiny detail like that, the band played while the ship was sinking, has become almost a centerpiece of cultural lore about the Titanic? Well, I guess because there's so much mystery about, you know, why a ship went down, and you were talking earlier about ghost ships and all that, this whole topic really does capture people's imagination, and it's been really interesting to talk about it. Daniel Stone's been my guest. He is a writer on science, history, and the environment. He's a

Starting point is 00:46:46 former staff writer for National Geographic, and the name of his book is Sinkable, Obsession, the Deep Sea, and the Shipwreck of the Titanic. And there's a link to his book in the show notes. Appreciate it. Thanks, Daniel. These were great questions, Mike. I appreciate your interest and willingness to help spread the word. Food poisoning can strike any time of year, but it's particularly likely in the summer. Estimates are that one out of six people will get some sort of food poisoning every year. And you can't necessarily blame your last meal, because it can take anywhere from hours to weeks for food poisoning symptoms to erupt. So which foods could it have been?

Starting point is 00:47:32 Well, good luck figuring that out, but likely culprits are basically all meat and fish, deli products, produce, eggs, multi-ingredient foods, baked goods, and beverages. However, the 10 riskiest of that bunch are as follows in order. Leafy greens, number one, eggs, tuna, oysters, potatoes, cheese, ice cream, tomatoes, sprouts, and berries. Summer is prime time for outbreaks because bacteria grows faster in warmer temperatures. Plus, people tend to eat more produce raw in the summer. The good news is most cases of food poisoning are relatively mild. Just be sure to see a doctor immediately if symptoms are severe or last more than a few days. And that is something you should know. If you enjoyed this episode of the podcast,

Starting point is 00:48:28 I hope you'll share it with someone you know, or maybe two or three or four people. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community.

Starting point is 00:48:50 Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever

Starting point is 00:49:28 you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Rob Benedict. And I am Richard Spate. We were both on a little show you might know called Supernatural. It had a pretty good run. 15 seasons, 327 episodes.

Starting point is 00:49:45 And though we have seen, of course, every episode many times, we figured, hey, now that we're wrapped, let's watch it all again. And we can't do that alone. So we're inviting the cast and crew that made the show along for the ride. We've got writers, producers, composers, directors,

Starting point is 00:50:01 and we'll, of course, have some actors on as well, including some certain guys that played some certain pretty iconic brothers. It was kind of a little bit of a left field choice in the best way possible. The note from Kripke was, he's great, we love him, but we're looking for like a really intelligent Duchovny type. With 15 seasons to explore, it's going to be the road trip of several lifetimes. So please join us and subscribe to Supernatural then and now.

Something You Should Know - How to Tell What Someone is REALLY Thinking & The Mystery and Lore of Shipwrecks

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