Something You Should Know - How You Treat People Affects Your Health & How A Simple Surprise Can Change Your Life Forever

Episode Date: August 29, 2022

Have you noticed that when you are working on a problem or trying to come up with a new idea there comes a point of diminishing returns? Then the more you try, the worse it gets. That appears to be true for everyone and there is a sweet spot after which your efforts suffer. This episode begins with a discussion on why this happens and when you should stop trying and do something else instead. https://hbr.org/2014/07/get-your-brain-unstuck When you think of the factors that impact your health, you probably think of medical care. And yes, medicine is important however, the type of person you are and how you treat other people is even more important – by a long shot! That’s according to Kelli Harding, M.D. and assistant clinical professor of psychiatry at Columbia University Irving Medical Center. Kelli is also author of the book The Rabbit Effect: Live Longer Happier and Healthier with the Groundbreaking Science of Kindness (https://amzn.to/2ZLksf1) and she joins me to reveal how social interaction and how kind you are impact how healthy you will be and how long you will likely live. In all of our lives there have been important moments that have helped to shape who we are. These are transformative moments. Perhaps someone said something to you that made you think differently about yourself or your abilities – good or bad. So what is it about these brief moments that make them so powerful they can actually change the course of your life or change what you think of yourself? Dr. Michael Rousell is an associate professor at southern Oregon University and has been studying these transformative moments for over three decades. He joins me to reveal the surprising reason why these moments have such an impact and how you can use them to your advantage. To see Michael’s TED talk on the subject, click here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5O6mFWpgZo&t=3s  When you walk you swing your arms. You don’t have to but most of the time you do. Why? Listen to hear the explanation and discover what burns more calories – swinging your arms when you walk – or not? http://mentalfloss.com/article/63362/why-do-we-swing-our-arms-when-we-walk PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! Go to https://CozyEarth.com/SOMETHING to SAVE 35% now!  All backed by a 100-Night Sleep Guarantee. Start hiring NOW with a $75 Sponsored Job Credit to upgrade your job post at https://Indeed.com/SOMETHING  Offer good for a limited time. Redeem your rewards for cash in any amount, at any time, with Discover Card! Learn more at https://Discover.com/RedeemRewards Go to Amazon and search for Conair Turbo Extreme to get your 2-in-1 steam and iron steamer today! So, if you think you’re okay to drive after a few drinks, think again. Play it safe and plan ahead to get a ride. Drive sober or get pulled over! Paid for by NHTSA Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, ever notice how the longer you try to solve a problem, the harder it gets? I'll explain why. Then, what really impacts how long you live and how healthy you are?

It turns out medical care probably only accounts for about 10 to 20 percent of somebody's overall health. Now that's a really critical 10 to 20 percent, but it turns out our social world is actually the biggest predictor of our health and it's something we're not really talking about. Also, why do you swing your arms when you walk when you really don't have to? And the fascinating way little surprises in your life can have a big impact. Surprise is essentially a big burst of dopamine, which is our motivator neurotransmitter. When you're surprised, if it's a big surprise, you get this massive burst of dopamine,

and it says, stop whatever you're doing and pay attention. Something really important is happening. All this today on Something You Should Know. This winter, take a trip to Tampa on Porter Airlines. Enjoy the warm Tampa Bay temperatures and warm Porter hospitality on your way there. All Porter fares include beer, wine, and snacks, and free fast-streaming Wi-Fi on planes with no middle seats. And your Tampa Bay vacation includes good times, relaxation, and great Gulf Coast weather.

Visit FlyPorter.com and actually enjoy economy. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today something you should know with mike carothers hi welcome to something you should know have you ever noticed how when you're trying to come up with an idea or solve a problem or figure something out, that it gets to the point, there's a certain point where it just gets worse.

Like you get worse at what you're trying to do. Well, it turns out that that point is roughly 15 minutes. If you've been trying to figure something out for more than 15 minutes, you should probably stop trying. Our problem-solving skills plummet after that amount of time, according to psychologist Dr. Ron Friedman, who is author of the book The Best Place to Work. He says that when we first encounter a problem, certain solutions just burst to mind.

You know that feeling, oh, there's a million things we could do. But if none of those ideas work, our focus starts to narrow in and re-evaluate the choices, and that's where we're likely to lose sight of the big picture. Dr. Friedman suggests that after 15 minutes you should switch tasks. Once we let go of that problem and focus our attention elsewhere, our perspective expands and incubation begins. That's your non-conscious thinking. The antidote or solution can then present itself when you least expect it, like in the shower or performing some other mundane task.

And that is something you should know. When you think about taking care of your health, you likely think about diet and exercise and going to the doctor and taking your medication and brushing your teeth and all of those things that we associate with being healthy. But what's become really clear and really interesting is that the kind of person you are, how you live your life, how you treat other people, and how you let them treat you, all have a huge impact on your health and longevity. More than I think most of us believe. It's almost like magic, but it's actually science. As you're about to hear from Kelly Harding.

Kelly is a medical doctor. She is an assistant clinical professor of psychiatry at Columbia University Irving Medical Center, and she is the author of the book, The Rabbit Effect, Live Longer, Happier, and Healthier with the Groundbreaking Science of Kindness. Welcome, doctor. Thank you so much, Michael, for having me. I greatly appreciate it. So explain what The Rabbit Effect is exactly. The Rabbit Effect is about how kindness saves lives. It's incredible.

You know, as a physician, we usually think of health as, you know, diet, exercise, sleep. But in fact, it really comes down to our relationships as one of our key drivers of health. And that's the rabbit effect. And so why is it called the rabbit effect? Where do rabbits come in? 1970s, researchers weren't really sure the connection between diet and heart health. And so this one researcher named Dr. Robert Niram was doing a study with virtually genetically identical rabbits, looking at when they ate a high fat diet, how that impacted their health. And what he found was quite curious. So one of the groups of rabbits he was studying,

for some reason, had far better, like 60% better health outcomes than the other groups of rabbits he was studying for some reason had far better, like 60% better health outcomes than the other groups of rabbits. And he thought initially there was something wrong with the protocol. So what he did is he checked everything out and it all looked okay. And then the researchers as a team tried to figure out what was going on with this one group of rabbits. And they noticed that one of the people working in the lab was not just giving the rabbits kibble, but she was also petting the rabbits and talking to the rabbits and giving them kindness, essentially. So they thought, I wonder if this could be the difference. And to their credit, they actually decided, even though they weren't social scientists, that they were going

to go back and see if this was in fact a true effect. So what they found is that it was, and they got the same results, this time with tightly controlled conditions, and they published it in the very prestigious journal Science. So how do we make that leap though? Okay, so there's one study where one researcher was very kind to the rabbits and petted them and talked to them. And that's great, and the rabbits did better. How do you make the leap from one study like that to, well, kindness must be great for everybody? You know, I heard about this study in the course of trying to figure out some medical mysteries I was seeing in the hospital as a doctor. And then once I heard about that study, it actually helped me walk across the street

from the medical center over to the School of Public Health, where I discovered that the rabbits were just the beginning of a much larger story. And this is a story that involves decades of research looking at how our social world impacts our health. And so how does it work? How is kindness and social interaction, how does that translate into better health? What goes on in the body? Because I'm nice to you, and you're nice to me. How does that? How does that make me healthier? So it's probably mediated through stress and sort of our interpretation of things that are happening. But there's also this effect that, you know, we're now seeing on this microscopic level with both epigenetics, and then also with telomere research, which I don you know, we're now seeing on this microscopic level with both epigenetics and

then also with telomere research, which I don't know if you're familiar with telomere research, or I can explain it for listeners if you like. Yeah, yeah, go ahead and yeah, explain what it is. Sure. So, you know, looking at the ends of our DNA, and they basically show that, you know, the longer they are, the longer we live is the sort of nitty gritty of it. And so, you know, there are these studies now looking at populations where, you know, if you have live in a stressful neighborhood, you know, if you live in a stressful home, it appears that your telomeres are actually shorter. And so that is predictive of a shorter lifespan. And it's actually also predictive of sort of all cause disease across the board, which is pretty incredible science. And what I find particularly exciting is how this also blends with the research that's showing things that are completely unexpected, like,

you know, that optimists live longer, that, you know, people with a sense of life purpose seem to have longer, and in fact, they seem to have longer telomeres. This is, you know, really amazing science because, you know, as a doctor, this is not what I was expecting when I went to medical school, because this is basically saying that, you know, all the things in our day-to-day life are actually impacting our bodies in this way that we might not have been appreciating prior. There are a lot of very kind people, very wonderful, loving people who get very, very sick. So being kind isn't completely preventative and keeps disease away. So sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. This is actually what got me interested in the rabbit effect to begin with, because what I was

seeing clinically was, you know, patients who on paper had very serious illnesses, but then when you meet them in person, you know, they're really living their lives still quite fully. It's almost as though the illness isn't slowing them down. And oftentimes those people, even with a serious illness, were living much longer. And then the flip side of that is seeing a lot of patients who, you know, when you look through the records, you look through the imaging, you know, you look at their blood work, everything checks out. So medically they look a-okay, but then you meet them and they don't feel well, they're not functioning, you know, they're not living life as fully as they could. And so,

you know, this is where it kind of became this question of what are we missing? And so that really got to looking at this data. Now, I just want to put a statistic out there. So, you know, access to medical care, it's absolutely critical. And the thing that was shocking, though, is it turns out medical care probably only accounts for about 10 to 20 percent of somebody's overall health. Now, that's a really critical 10 to 20 percent. But then it brings up what else is going on. So, you know, different pieces of this include genes play a role, but it turns out the genes

are actually more malleable than we thought, but it turns out the genes are actually more malleable than we thought. And it turns out the social world is actually impacting it. So our social world is actually the biggest predictor of our health. And it's something we're not really talking about, you know, often in our doctor's office and not in our country necessarily. So what does a good social world look like in terms of health? The key seems to be positive connections, so positive relationships. So if you could invest in anything, I think we all, you know, think about investing in that gym membership, investing in that kale salad. Those things are important, but you also want to be thinking about who are you going to

the gym with? You know, who are you eating that kale salad with? How are you spending your time? Because, you know, we talk about the negative health effects of smoking and high blood pressure and all these other things, but it turns out things like loneliness are as significant a health risk as high blood pressure, as smoking 15 cigarettes a day, as heavy alcohol use. And so, which brings up the question, is it better to be around people that are grumpy and not very nice, or is it better to be alone? Because if loneliness is a problem,

but also being around the wrong kind of people is a problem, well, which is the bigger problem? You're right. So, in fact, this reminds me of those studies that show, you know, people that are married tend to have better health outcomes. But if you sort of dig into the data, it's people who are happily married have better health outcomes. So supportive relationships. And you want to do what you can to bolster those supportive relationships. So, for instance, for your listeners, you know, think about somebody who supported you in your life and then reach out to them, you know, just send them a note to say,

even a text just to say, I'm thinking about you. And, or check in with them, give a phone call if you live in the same place or schedule a visit to go see them. Cause we want to do, we want to bolster as much face-to-face connection as possible. That's positive. But what's really exciting, Mike, is this idea that we can do this in so many different aspects of our lives. You know, whether it's in our homes with our families, whether it's with our friendships, or if it's in our workplaces, we want to seek out supportive, positive relationships, you know, people who treat us with dignity. And that's really the key. And also in our school systems. The other thing that's

really exciting about this and does not get its due often is the role that learning and education can play in our health. How so? It turns out that learning and life's purpose are fairly well connected. So there's sort of formal education, and then there's learning. And what's so cool is that, you know, when you're engaging in learning, it's really good for your health on a number of different levels. There's a statistic that just blows my mind. It's, you know, for every one life saved by biomedicine, education saves eight. From a public health standpoint, that's pretty incredible because what it's saying is for the teachers who are out there listening or the educators is that, you know, you don't have to necessarily be a doctor or there are ways to get involved to start to build those.

And actually, my favorite social prescription would be, you know, to encourage people to volunteer. So find something you're interested in and show up. It turns out people who volunteer live longer. We're talking about your health and how the kind of person you are has such a huge impact on your health and longevity. My guest is Kelly Harding. She's a medical doctor and author of the book, The Rabbit Effect. Live longer, happier, and healthier with the groundbreaking science of kindness. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a co-founder of the Go Kid Go Network.

At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lightning, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. During her journey, Isla meets new friends, including King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, and learns valuable life lessons with every quest sword fight and dragon ride positive and uplifting stories remind us all about the importance of kindness friendship honesty and positivity join me and an all-star cast of actors including liam neeson emily blunt kristin bell chris hemsworth among many others in welcoming the search for the silver lining podcast the go kid go network by listening today. Look for the Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences,

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The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, Kelly, you said something a minute ago about, you know, people who you see as a doctor who have illness, but they more or less live their life as if they didn't. They seem to kind of break through that and live longer and all that. And that's not social. Well, then they probably have good social relationships, but it sounds more like that's attitude. And so what about attitude? You know, my background is i first trained in internal medicine and psychiatry and then i did a research fellowship sort of looking at sort of symptoms that didn't

clear have a clear medical etiology and you know attitude is one of those things it's like an invisible factor in our health but it's this really cool interplay between the mind and body and what's so neat about it is, you know, you can train yourself to be an optimist in some ways. So it's not like you either are or are not an optimist. And I think that's often how people tend to think about it. But for instance, there was just this really cool study looking at lots of people across the board. You know, so a big population cohort that was done out of Harvard that showed that in fact, optimists do live longer. And they tend to live, you know, so a big population cohort that was done out of Harvard that showed that, in fact, optimists do live longer and they tend to live, you know, to be the sort of oldest old over age 85. And what's neat is there are things, you know, that you can train yourself to do to be more

optimistic. So, so attitude certainly plays a role. Social support plays a role because the other, the other thing just related to what you were saying is, you know, the patient who has a serious illness, it really helps when they have a friend by their side that shows up to their clinic appointments with them, you know, maybe a family member that helps them organize their medications, you know, all this stuff, especially for like people who are on chemotherapy regimens, they can be quite complicated. And it's nice to have a trusted friend by your side. It's also, Mike, what's really neat for me is I feel like these are sort of common sense things. We all feel good with a friend by our side.

But now it turns out that there's actually, you know, more and more evidence that that's actually good for our health. One of the things I thought was so interesting and that supports this idea of that we need social interaction, we need people in our lives. Was the evidence that you point to that just a hug has like therapeutic effect? Oh my gosh. So, well, these are, you know, so human bodies are not in, like humans are social creatures and we thrive with connection and touch is actually a real need. And, you know, there's this thing called like touch hunger, but positive loving touch is critical. And this what's neat about this is it can come in different forms.

So hugs are one of those. And there are these really fun studies that look at, you know, not only susceptibility to getting the cold virus, but then also duration of cold virus. And it turns out people who have like a hug a day are at less risk of getting colds, just, you know, just one, probably more or better. But also that they don't get as sick for as long. That's pretty amazing medicine, right? Like if we all could take that in a pill, we probably would. But it really just takes, you know, given someone you love a squeeze. And it's funny too, there's some research that shows the hug may need to be a little bit longer than you're usually comfortable with, like, you know, like six to 20 seconds might

be like the optimal hug length. Wouldn't you think, wouldn't you think that you would be more likely to catch a cold from the person you're hugging rather than be preventive of getting colds from wherever you get your cold from. So Mike, this is actually, so you're right. So germ theory would say that you're getting exposed to more people. And I think this is where, you know, the science gets kind of exciting and also quite telling. So just to give you another example of that. So back, not that long ago in the 80s, and then before that, it was in the I believe the 1950s. There were studies that were done looking at children in orphanages and there were incredibly high rates of kids dying in orphanages. And so, you know, what was done to try to protect them with that understanding is to isolate them, you know, keep the kids sort of like all separate.

And then, you know, somebody came along, it's happened now several times, and sort of thought, maybe it's because they're not getting social interaction. And in fact, it turns out that, you know, the kids that were exposed to loving caregivers, which you would think that they're actually potentially getting exposed to more illnesses, they thrived. And in fact, in some of the studies, none of the kids die that are exposed to loving caregivers, as opposed to the children that were sort of kept in the more sterile environments that were meant to protect them from illness. So those studies are cautionary, because what they're saying is that we are neglecting this incredible piece of our health. So we know that we know that kindness is good for it boosts our immune system. You know, it's how it seems to help us live longer, and it reduces blood

pressure, it's reducing stress levels. So and it's hard, because it's sort of like hidden in plain sight right in front of us. It's things that we haven't, they're right there, but we haven't necessarily appreciated. Don't you wonder why your profession hasn't promoted this more? You don't hear a lot about it. If it's as powerful as you say, you would think every doctor would be screaming this, you know, from his office or her office. I find it exciting because when I talk to clinicians, you know, people and for the people that work in health care who are listening, there are really high rates of burnout in health care. And I think a part of that might be because we're not addressing these social factors. And it's really difficult when, you know, you are seeing a person who has a treatable illness and they're just continuing to get worse. And you know, it's

because of the things that we're talking about, you know, in the rabbit effect, all these social factors, you know, what's happening in their lives outside the hospital. And it feels as though you can't, you can't make a difference with that. But, you know, there are all these different ways and many of them are extremely low cost, you know, to try to get health more out in the community. So I think it's actually getting a lot of traction from people within the health care system because they realize, you know, it's not health is not just seeing the doctor and health is more than health care. It's really what's happening in our day to day lives. And I think we can certainly do a better job, you know, where we invest our dollars in this country in terms of making sure that people have community supports. You know, even things like, you know, we tell as a doctor, it's like very common to come in, someone's overweight and you tell them, you know, eat a healthier diet.

But we also have to be thinking about the community that they live in. What's the access to, you know, healthy green vegetables? You know, are they affordable? Are they accessible? What's their access to, you know, healthy green vegetables? You know, are they affordable? Are they accessible? What's their neighborhood like? You know, we can tell people they need more exercise, but if they don't feel safe walking around in the evenings, then they're not going to be necessarily getting more exercise.

So we need to be thinking about all these structural things that we can actually do to make a difference to our health and invest in them. When you just tell someone that you need more social interaction to improve your health, it's kind of like telling someone who's overweight to eat healthier. If they've spent their entire life not doing that, it's very hard to know what that means, specifically piece by piece. How do you have more social interactions if, in fact, that's not what you've done? Probably the easiest is to find something you're excited about and get engaged in.

So, you know, again, this goes back to like taking a class, doing volunteering, something like that. There are other ways that our social world can boost our health that don't necessarily even involve people. And I'm thinking about this right now because I have my plant on my desk. And that's actually time in nature. So, you know, there's also these really cool studies showing that, you know, time in nature boosts our immune system, like natural killer cells, just being exposed to forests, like in Japan, now it's becoming a thing, forest bathing, maybe you've heard of it. But it turns out actually even having like trees on your block reduces rates of depression. You know, so get out there, plant some flowers, get other people involved as much as you can.

You know, this is really exciting data. A lot of it's been done in Philadelphia. Looking when when community members green vacant lots, they actually reduce gun violence in the neighborhood. So just to think about that, there are ways to get involved and to be kind that don't necessarily mean being like the bubbly life of the party or something, you know, so there, there's so many things that each of us can do to contribute in a way that feels authentic to us. And that's what I would just encourage listeners to think about some of these things. And, you know, there's even studies that show in hospitals that, you know, patients who are exposed to gardens recover a day sooner, they require less intervention from the staff, they require less pain pills. You know, pain is something in this country, like there is a lot of pain out there. You know, you just have to type in, you know,

why do I feel so into Google and see what comes up. And, you know, it comes up, why do I feel so alone? Why do I feel so tired? Which is also a synonym oftentimes for depression. Why is everyone else so successful? Why is everyone else so happy? You know, people are suffering out there. And it's the kind of pain that's not going to get fixed necessarily with a pill or in a doctor's office even. So we need to be thinking about how we're taking care of each other in the community

and that it's a critical part of health. Well, it is so great to hear that really what you're saying is just being a good person, having friends, doing for others, that those things have this incredible impact on health and longevity, and it's so easy to do. Kelly Harding has been my guest. She is a medical doctor and she is an assistant clinical professor of psychiatry at Columbia University Irving Medical Center. And she's author of the book, The Rapid Effect, Live Longer, Happier and Healthier with the groundbreaking science of kindness. You'll find the link to

her book at Amazon in the show notes for this episode. Thank you, Kelly. Thanks for being here. Mike, thank you so much. This has really been delightful. And thank you to your listeners for all the kindness that they show in the world. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared.

It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today.

Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney.

There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. I suspect there have been moments in your life that you remember that have altered your course, maybe in a significant way, because it changed the way you think about yourself,

maybe in a good way, maybe in a bad way. Perhaps somebody said something to you or some event happened that had an impact on you. And interestingly, there is a good chance that in that moment, there was the element of surprise. That thing that somebody said or that thing that happened to you surprised you. And that is really important according to my next guest. Dr. Michael Rozelle is an associate professor at Southern Oregon University, and he has been studying life-changing or formative events for over three decades.

And in fact, you can see a TED Talk online of him discussing this subject, and there is a link to that TED Talk in the show notes. Welcome, Michael. So, start by explaining what you mean by a formative event. For me, the formative event is a moment that changes how you feel about yourself or how you think you fit into the world, a belief about yourself. And our beliefs about ourselves play out in our behavior. And so an example of a formative event would be what? There was an example of Lori told me this story.

When she was very young, she used to think that she was funny-looking and odd-looking. And at one point in her early teens, she overheard her aunt talking to her mother. And the aunt said, wow, your daughter is exotic looking. She should embrace those differences. And overhearing that, that comment surprised her because she always thought she was funny and odd looking. And ever since that moment, she embraces these differences and she feels rather exotic looking. And she said that was a key formative moment in her development. Because what she heard surprised her. Because what she heard surprised her. In a regular conversation, if you just say, oh, you're exotic looking, and she might just

brush that off as, oh, you're just trying to be nice. You're just trying to be friendly. But she has got this firmly entrenched belief that she's really not that attractive. But because it was a moment of surprise, and the reason surprise works that way is because from an evolutionary point of view, when we were surprised back thousands or tens of thousands of years ago, that was usually a moment of immense opportunity or immense danger. So we had to learn quickly. So we've evolved to learn instantly during a moment of surprise. But not all surprises change who you are or change how you think about yourself. Well, first of all, I should probably explain the kind of surprises that I study. And now we can be surprised if we see a panda running across our yard and we're not in China.

And we think, oh, what the heck just happened? And so you would be quite surprised by that. But that surprise did not change who you are. But if you surprise somebody about their self-esteem or their self-identity, you can't check that out. You accept it because it happened instantly and it surprised you. Let me just backtrack a bit. Surprise is essentially a big burst of dopamine, which is our motivator neurotransmitter. When you're surprised, if it's a big surprise, you get this massive burst of dopamine, and it only lasts like several milliseconds. And it says, stop whatever you're doing and pay attention.

Something really important is happening. And we've all experienced that when we saw that panda run across the yard or somebody did a magic trick in front of us or we heard a big horn blast. So we get this sudden burst of dopamine that lasts a few milliseconds that says something really important is happening. Pay attention. And then immediately following that, we get a selection process. The dopamine will either go up or down. And a dopamine level goes

up. That means this is a good thing. If the dopamine level goes down, that means it's a bad thing. Approach avoid. So if we're pleasantly surprised, the dopamine level goes up and we approach. And if we're surprised negatively, the dopamine level drops and we avoid. Let's use Lori as an example. When Lori heard that comment from her aunt about she's actually exotic looking, that surprise, there's an initial burst of dopamine saying, oh, stop whatever you're doing, pay attention. And then the following comment, she's exotic looking, initiates a new belief. Now when she has interactions after that moment with friends and that,

because she believes she's exotic looking, when she turns around and she sees somebody looking at her, and people look at you all the time, but now it becomes affirmed, oh, she thinks that person's looking at me because I'm exotic-looking. While prior to that, if she saw casual glances cast her away, she would have thought, oh, they think poor me. Look at that unattractive lady. And so when you talk about someone saying to you, and it surprises you that you're a really

fast learner, does that make you a faster learner? Or do you now do things that cause you to be a faster learner? Or are you just surprised by it and you're just surprised by it? Let me give you an example to try to explain that. Let's say that little Bobby is in a classroom, and he's really struggling. He's eight years old. He's third grade, and he's struggling with math. And as he's struggling with math, a teacher walks up to him and says, oh, wow, you sure struggle with math. Now, little eight-year-old Bobby has this idea, oh, I sure struggle with math.

That comment explained why he wasn't doing well. So he struggles with math. And so now when he's doing math, he gives up easily because he struggles with math. That's his identity. And so from a neurological point of view, whenever he's doing math now, it's, well, why bother? So his dopamine level drops because it's avoid math. Now let's just back up a little bit and let's say we have this little 8-year-old and he's struggling with math, little Bobby, struggling with math. But a teacher walks by and says instead, wow, you're sure working hard at math.

That's the sure sign of a strong learner. So he's surprised by that maybe. Now when he struggles with math, the valence for math is stick with it. That's the sign of a strong learner. So when he's a couple years later and he gets a tough math problem, what's he going to do? Is he going to give up or is he going to stick with it? And that's where dopamine comes in. He'll stick with it because his dopamine levels are higher. And even though it's hard work, he's going to stick with it because that's the signs of a strong learner.

So, Michael, what do we do with this? Because you can't surprise yourself. You can't put yourself in situations to be surprised, because it wouldn't be a surprise. So, you know, surprises happen to all of us, and there it is, but so now what? Exactly. So, if you know how surprise works, and someone gives you a surprise surprise comment and you feel hurt by it, you can stop and think, okay, that was a surprise comment. What does that mean? And I'm not going to accept it. And you can critically examine, is this something worth accepting or not? You don't have to accept it automatically because comments are accepted automatically. And then we just move on.

And that's the way we evolved. We didn't evolve to question. But most importantly, as a parent or a teacher or a coach or a supervisor at work, what you can do is, and let me go back to that experience with Bobby. And Bobby now who is told, wow, your ability to stick with math is a sure sign of a strong learner. In subsequent times, he is going to work harder. So does he actually get better at math? Well, I don't know if he gets better at math, but he's more likely to work at it, which is more likely to get better. So it's best used for other people.

As a way to encourage and motivate. You can enrich their lives by having the focus on what they can do and how they can be, then by their own self-limiting ideas. For instance, let's just go simply back to Lori, who believed she wasn't very good't very attractive looking, rather odd looking. Now her life is a little richer. And for Bobby, who was working at math, and now he has a more positive outlook. And so, for instance, if you're a supervisor and you have an employee, and I mentioned this in the TED Talk as an example, but if you're a supervisor and you have an employee, and I mentioned this in the TED Talk as an example,

but if you're a supervisor and you have an employee and your employee doesn't think she learns her protocols very thoroughly and you call her into your office and she's worried now, she's anxious, that she's going to have some criticism. And in the moment of her anxiety, you surprise her and say, hey, wow, you're a great employee. Your ability to learn your protocol so thoroughly makes you a valued employee. Now have a nice day. And you send her out of your office.

Now, because that was a surprise comment, she got that two-faced spike of dopamine. The first phase saying, what just happened? What's going on here? And then immediately after the surprise comment was the explanation. You learn your protocols thoroughly. Well, no wonder she learns them slowly, because she's learning them thoroughly. And so from that moment forward, she now is, when she's learning her protocols and she's doing it slowly, she's not anxious about learning her protocols thoroughly or slowly, excuse me. She's excited about learning them thoroughly. And so what happens is it perpetuates itself. What if you surprised me, though, and said something that I know isn't true?

If you, you know, walked by the bathroom and heard me singing in the shower and said, oh my god, you're a great singer. Well, I'm not a great singer. I suck at singing. And so objectively speaking, I'm not a good singer. So when your surprise compliment flies in the face of the facts, I would imagine it's less sticky. And so telling me I'm a great singer wouldn't do much good. Yeah, because I'm not going to change whether you think you're a good singer or not. But if I say, well, the way you hold your notes and your ability to breathe evenly is a sure sign of a good singer. Now, what are you going to focus on next time you're singing?

Your ability to hold the notes and the breathing properly. And normally you wouldn't think about that. But because I surprised you with that comment, now that is part of your evolution as a singer if you want to pursue that. But because I surprised you with that comment, now that is part of your evolution as a singer, if you want to pursue that. Well, as I listen to you talk, I think back on my life, and I can remember events of things that have happened, or things people have said to me that do shape who I am, or how good I think I am at something. So this is a real thing, but I've never thought of it as that it's the surprise in that moment that is what really makes that difference.

People have formative events all the time. They happen to you regularly. But we tend to dismiss them or not even notice them because they happen so fast. Now, if you're in a position that works particularly with children or in a supervisory capacity, if you're at work and you work with others and you're giving feedback and you want people to maximize their productivity, you actually want them to lead a more fulfilling life, a life with more significance. And by using surprise strategically, because my background is as a teacher and a psychologist and a researcher,

and so I've always been engaged in enriching others' lives. And here's a mechanism by which to do that. Anybody who is struggling, those struggles have a flip side. For instance, if you're really struggling with failing, and so you don't even try anymore, because what's the point? So you say to this person, your ability to fail so gracefully is going to help you learn more. Then that's a surprising comment because they didn't think they were failing gracefully. If that comment surprises them, they get a burst of dopamine. And that burst of dopamine says, pay attention, something really important is happening here. And then they listen because we are, from an evolutionary point

of view, we accept the next comment quickly. Now maybe failing isn't something avoid, avoid, I'm just horrible at it. Maybe the dopamine increases just a bit or maybe substantially. Well, the failing isn't so bad. It's the sign of learning. It's the sign of moving forward. And if that's true, that's a formative event for that person. So formative events can be very small and they can be large, like the ones I've talked about here where Lori went from feeling odd looking to feeling exotic. That's a big one. And it's about how we phrase our comments and how we can frame it in such a way that if we intentionally surprise somebody and we follow that comment with something powerfully positive, that can be a formative event.

At the very least, it's a positive comment. But if you surprise that person, it's probably formative. And it seems that you could use this for good or evil, that kind of surprise in those formative moments that can be very beneficial to a person, when you turn it around, you could also really cause some harm as well. Many of the formative events we've had in our life have negative effects. When you think you're really doing well and somebody says, surprises you by saying, that's really the silliest, stupidest thing I've ever heard. Now, that surprise comment, you're much less likely to pursue that avenue because you were surprised.

So it can have positive and it can have negative consequences. Well, it does have positive and negative, and those formative events can be highlights or lowlights in your life. We have many of them, and many of them were triggered by surprise. And really, anyone can test this out for themselves after listening to you. You can think back in your own life and think of those formative events and when someone surprised you or something surprised you and how it may have changed you. Dr. Michael Rozelle has been my guest. He is an associate professor at Southern Oregon University.

He's been studying life-changing or formative events for over three decades, and you can see a TED Talk of him talking more about this. There's a link to that TED Talk in the show notes. Thank you, Professor. Thanks very much for the call. All the best to you, Mike. Do you remember there was a Seinfeld episode about a girl who didn't swing her arms when she walked? And it brings up the question of why do we swing our arms when we walk? It's certainly not necessary. If you're carrying something in your arms, you don't swing, but you can walk perfectly fine. One theory is that it's a neurological leftover from when we walked on all fours.

When quadrupeds walk, most of them do it with a contralateral gait, meaning right foot with left arm, left foot with right arm. It helps with balance at slower speeds. On the other hand, scientists in the University of Michigan study concluded that swinging our arms adds stability, and that in fact, not swinging your arms would use up to 12% more energy while you walk. So you could actually burn more calories by not swinging your arms when you walk, but you sure would look weird, like that girl in the Seinfeld

episode. And that is something you should know. If you enjoy this podcast, please share it with someone you know. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Hey, hey, are you ready for some real talk and some fantastic laughs? Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa D.onts for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? We're serving up for hilarious shows every week designed to entertain and engage and, you know, possibly enrage you. In Don't Blame Me, we dive deep into listeners' questions, offering advice that's funny, relatable, and real. Whether you're dealing with relationship drama or you just need a friend's perspective, we've got you. Then switch gears with But Am I Wrong, which is for listeners who didn't take our advice and want to know if they are the villains in the situation.

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