Something You Should Know - How Your Social Life Affects Your Health & Can You Be Selfish in a Relationship?

Episode Date: September 9, 2019

If you want to be more successful and make more money there is one very simple and seemingly unrelated thing you can do that has been proven by looking at the habits of over 30,000 families. This episode begins by revealing what this seemingly magical, money-making act is. https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/arthur-c-brooks_giving-matters-2/ When it comes to good health – medical care is important. However, the kind of person you are and how you treat others is even more important – by a lot! That’s according to Kelli Harding, M.D. and assistant clinical professor of psychiatry at Columbia University Irving Medical Center. She is also author of the book The Rabbit Effect: Live Longer Happier and Healthier with the Groundbreaking Science of Kindness (https://amzn.to/2ZLksf1) and she joins me to discuss how social interaction and how kind you are impact how healthy you will be and how long you will live.  When you walk you swing your arms. You don’t have to – but you do. Why? Listen to hear the explanation and discover what burns more calories – swinging your arms when you walk – or not? http://mentalfloss.com/article/63362/why-do-we-swing-our-arms-when-we-walk Is it okay to be selfish in a relationship? How do you balance your needs with the needs of your partner? Listen to Dr. Jane Greer, a marriage and family therapist and author of the book What About Me? Stop Selfishness from Ruining your Relationship (https://amzn.to/2UKSlI2). She joins me to explain how to deal with the inevitable problem of getting both of your needs met and still be happy. This Week’s Sponsors -Simplisafe. For free shipping and a money-back guarantee, go to www.Simplisafe.com/something -Capterra. To find the best software for your business for free go to www.Capterra.com/something Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As a listener to Something You Should Know, I can only assume that you are someone who likes to learn about new and interesting things and bring more knowledge to work for you in your everyday life. I mean, that's kind of what Something You Should Know was all about. And so I want to invite you to listen to another podcast called TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks. Well, you see, TED Talks Daily is a podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday in less than 15 minutes. Join host Elise Hu.

She goes beyond the headlines so you can hear about the big ideas shaping our future. Learn about things like sustainable fashion, embracing your entrepreneurial spirit, the future of robotics, and so much more. Like I said, if you like this podcast, Something You Should Know, I'm pretty sure you're going to like TED Talks Daily. And you get TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts. Today on Something You Should Know, the amazing connection between how much money you make and how much you give to others. It's stunning. Then, what really impacts how long you live and how healthy you are?

The thing that was shocking, though, is it turns out medical care probably only accounts for about 10 to 20% of somebody's overall health. But then it brings up what else is going on. So our social world is actually the biggest predictor of our health, and it's something we're not really talking about. Plus, why do you swing your arms when you walk? And if you're in a relationship, have you ever thought, hey, what about me and what I want? Often there are times when it is, what about me? Wait a minute, we're visiting your family every week. What about me? What about my family?

Or we're always going to vacation where you want to go. What about me? What about what I want? All this today on Something You Should Know. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like Something You Should Know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS

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The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, and welcome to Something You Should Know. We're going to start today with a bit of a mystery.

Here are the facts. The more money people make, the more they give to charity. And the more people give to charity, the more money they make. Economist Arthur Brooks looked at data from 30,000 families, and he found that whether you donate time, money, or even blood, the act of giving somehow results

in an increase in income. He claims it is undeniable, although it is difficult to explain just by looking at the numbers. After years of research and discussion with colleagues, Arthur Brooks believes he has the explanation. Happiness. People who give to charity are 43% more likely than people who don't to say they're very happy people. People who give blood are twice as likely to say they're very happy people as people who don't give blood. People who volunteer are happier.

People who are happier do their jobs with less stress and tend to be more productive and successful. And this ties in with what you're about to hear from my first guest, Dr. Kelly Harding, who joins me in a second. But whatever the reason, if you want to be successful, give. And that is something you should know. When you think about taking care of your health, you likely think about diet and exercise and going to the doctor and taking your medication and brushing your teeth and all of those things that we associate with being healthy. But what's become really clear and really interesting is that the kind of person you are, how you live your life,

how you treat other people, and how you let them treat you all have a huge impact on your health and longevity. More than I think most of us believe. It's almost like magic, but it's actually science. As you're about to hear from Kelly Harding. Kelly is a medical doctor. She is an assistant clinical professor of psychiatry at Columbia University Irving Medical Center. And she is the author of the book, The Rabbit Effect, Live Longer, Happier, and Healthier with the Groundbreaking Science of Kindness. Welcome, doctor.

Thank you so much, Michael, for having me. I greatly appreciate it. So explain what The Rabbit Effect is exactly. The Rabbit Effect is about how kindness saves lives. It's incredible. You know, as a physician, we usually think of health as, you know, diet, exercise, sleep. But in fact, it's really comes down to our relationships is one of our key drivers of health. And that's the rabbit effect. And so why is it called the rabbit effect? Where do rabbits come in? So it's based on these studies that were done in the 1970s. And, you know, it's really fun.

As a scientist, these were studies that had this incredible accidental finding. So back in the late 1970s, researchers weren't really sure the connection between, you know, diet and heart health and so this one researcher named dr robert nerum was doing a study with virtually genetically identical rabbits looking at when they ate a high fat diet how that impacted their health and what he found was quite curious so one of the groups of rabbits he was studying for some reason had far better like 60 better health outcomes than the other groups of rabbits. And he thought initially there was something wrong with the protocol. So what he did is he checked everything out and it all looked okay. And then the researchers as a team tried to figure out what was going on with this one group of rabbits. And they noticed that one of the people working in the lab was not

just giving the rabbits kibble, but she was also petting the rabbits and talking to the rabbits and giving them kindness, essentially. So they thought, I wonder if this could be the difference. And to their credit, they actually decided, even though they weren't social scientists, that they were going to go back and see if this was, in fact, a true effect. So what they found is that it was, and they got the same results, this time with tightly controlled conditions, and they published it in the very prestigious journal Science. So how do we make that leap though? Okay, so there's one study where one researcher was very kind to the rabbits and petted them and talked to them, and that's great, and the rabbits did better.

How do you make the leap from one study like that to, well, kindness must be great for everybody? You know, I heard about this study in the course of trying to figure out some medical mysteries I was seeing in the hospital as a doctor. And then once I heard about that study, it actually helped me walk across the street from the medical center over to the School of Public Health, where I discovered that the rabbits were just the beginning of a much larger story. And this is a story that involves decades of research looking at how our social world impacts our health. And so how does it work? How is kindness and social interaction, how does that translate into better health? What goes on in the body? because I'm nice to you and you're nice to

me? How does that make me healthier? So it's probably mediated through stress and sort of our interpretation of things that are happening. But there's also this effect that we're now seeing on this microscopic level with both epigenetics and then also with telomere research, which I don't know if you're familiar with telomere research, or I can explain it for listeners if you like. Yeah, yeah, go ahead. We actually had Elizabeth Blackburn, who is, I guess, really the pioneer in telomere research. She was on episode 38, if people want to go back and listen to that. But go ahead and, yeah, explain what it is. Sure. So for those who maybe didn't hear that,

that episode, and she's like a rock star scientist, she's just the coolest. So, so, you know, looking at the ends of our DNA, and they basically show that, you know, the longer they are, the longer we live is the sort of nitty gritty of it. And so, you know, there are these studies now looking at populations where, you know, if you have live in a stressful neighborhood, you know, if you live in a stressful home, it appears that your telomeres are actually shorter. And so that is predictive of a shorter lifespan. And it's actually also predictive of sort of all cause disease across the board, which is pretty incredible science. And, you know, Dr. Blackburn has certainly been, you know, leading the field in this. And what I find particularly exciting is how this also blends with the research

that's showing things that are completely unexpected, like, you know, that optimists live longer, that, you know, people with a sense of life purpose seem to have longer. And in fact, they seem to have longer telomeres. This is, you know, really amazing science because, you know, as a doctor, this is not what I was expecting when I went to medical school because this is basically saying that, you know, all the things in our day-to-day life are actually impacting our bodies in this way that we might not have been appreciating prior. There are a lot of very kind people, very wonderful, loving people who get very, very sick. So being kind isn't completely preventative and keeps disease away. So sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. This is actually what got me interested

in the rabbit effect to begin with, because what I was saying clinically was, you know, patients who on paper had very serious illnesses, but then when you meet them in person, you know, they're really living their lives still quite fully. It's almost as though the illness isn't slowing them down. And oftentimes, those people, even with a serious illness, were living much longer. And then the flip side of that is seeing a lot of patients who, you know, when you look through the records, you look through the imaging, you know, you look at their blood work, everything checks out. So medically, they look a-okay, but then you meet them and they don't feel well, they're not functioning, you know, you look at their blood work, everything checks out. So medically, they look a-okay, but then you meet them and they don't feel well, they're not functioning, you know, they're not living life as fully as they could. And so, you know, this is where it kind of became

this question of what are we missing? And so that really got to looking at this data. Now, I just want to put a statistic out there. So, you know, access to medical care, it's absolutely critical. And the thing that was shocking, though, is it turns out medical care probably only accounts for about 10 to 20% of somebody's overall health. Now, that's a really critical 10 to 20%. But then it brings up what else is going on. So, you know, different pieces of this include genes play a role, but it turns out the genes are actually more malleable than we thought. And it turns out the social world is actually impacting it. So our social world is actually

the biggest predictor of our health. And it's something we're not really talking about, you know, often in our doctor's office and not in our country necessarily. So what does a good social world look like in terms of health? So the key seems to be positive connections, so positive relationships. So if you could invest in anything, I think we all, you know, think about investing in that gym membership, investing in that kale salad. Those things are important, but you also want to be thinking about who are you going to the gym with? You know, who are you eating that kale salad with? How are you spending your time gym with? You know, who are you eating that kale salad with? How are you spending your time? Because, you know, we talk about the negative health effects of smoking and high blood pressure and all these other things, but it turns out things like

loneliness are as significant a health risk as high blood pressure, as smoking 15 cigarettes a day, as heavy alcohol use. And so, which brings up the question, is it better to be around people that are grumpy and not very nice, or is it better to be alone? Because if loneliness is a problem, but also being around the wrong kind of people is a problem, well, which is the bigger problem? You're right. So in fact, this reminds me of those studies that show, you know, people that are married tend to have better health outcomes. But if you sort of dig into the data,

it's people who are happily married have better health outcomes. So supportive relationships. And you want to do what you can to bolster those supportive relationships. So for instance, for your listeners, you know, think about somebody who supported you in your life and then reach out to them, you know, just send them a note to say, even a text,

just to say, I'm thinking about you. And, or check in with them, give a phone call if you live in the same place or schedule a visit to go see them. Cause we want to do, we want to bolster as much face-to-face connection as possible. That's positive. But what's really exciting, Mike, is this idea that we can do this in so many different aspects of our lives. You know, whether it's in our homes, with our families, whether it's with our friendships, or if it's in our workplaces, we want to seek out supportive, positive relationships, you know, people who treat us with dignity. And that's really the key. And also in our school systems, the other thing that's really exciting

about this and does not get its due often is the role that learning and education can play in our health. How so? It turns out that learning and life's purpose are fairly well connected. So there's sort of formal education and then there's learning. And what's so cool is that, you know, when you're engaging in learning, it's really good for your health on a number of different levels. There's a statistic that just blows my mind. It's, you know, for every one life saved by biomedicine, education saves eight. From a public health standpoint, that's pretty incredible. Because what it's saying is for the teachers who are out there listening or the educators is that, you know, you don't have to necessarily be a doctor or wear a white coat to be boosting people's health.

We're really boosting people's health through education. And part of that is also the mental engagement with something you're excited about. So if you don't have supportive relationships, you know, there are ways to get involved to start to build those. And actually, my favorite social prescription would be, you know, to encourage people to volunteer. So find something you're interested in and show up. It turns out people who volunteer live longer. We're talking about your health and how the kind of person you are has such a huge impact on your health and longevity. My guest is Kelly Harding. She's a medical doctor and author of the book, The Rabbit Effect. Live longer, happier, and healthier with the groundbreaking science of kindness.

Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. People who listen to something you should know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about

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Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. So Kelly, you said something a minute ago about, you know, people who you see as a doctor who have illness, but they more or less live their life as if they didn't. They seem to kind of break through that and live longer and all that. And that's not social. Well, then they probably have good social relationships, but it sounds more like that's attitude. And that is, so what about attitude? You know, my background is I first trained in internal medicine and psychiatry, and then I did a research fellowship sort of looking at sort of symptoms that didn't have a clear medical etiology. And, you know, attitude is one of those

things. It's like an invisible factor in our health, but it's this really cool interplay between the mind and body. And what's so neat about it is, you know, you can train yourself to be an optimist in some ways. So it's not like you either are or are not an optimist. And I think that's often how people tend to think about it. But for instance, there was just this really cool study looking at lots of people across the board. You know, so a big population cohort that was done out of Harvard that showed that in fact, optimists do live longer, and they tend to live, you know, to be the sort of oldest old over age 85. And what's neat is there are things, you know, that you can train yourself to do to be more optimistic. So, so attitude certainly plays a role, Social support plays a role because the

other, the other thing just related to what you were saying is, you know, the patient who has a serious illness, it really helps when they have a friend by their side that shows up to their clinic appointments with them, you know, maybe a family member that helps them organize their medications, you know, all this stuff, especially for like people who are on chemotherapy regimens, they can be quite complicated. And it's nice to have a trusted friend by your side. Also, Mike, what's really neat for me is I feel like these are sort of common sense things. We all feel good with a friend by our side.

But now it turns out that there's actually more and more evidence that that's actually good for our health. One of the things I thought was so interesting and that supports this idea of that we need social interaction, we need people in our lives, was the evidence that you point to that just a hug has like therapeutic effect. Oh my gosh. So, well, these are, you know, so human bodies are not like humans are social creatures and we thrive with connection and touch is actually a real need. And, you know, there's this thing called like touch hunger, but positive loving touch is critical. And this what's neat about this is it can come in different forms. So hugs are one of those. And there are these really fun studies that look at, you know, not only susceptibility to getting the cold virus, but then also duration of cold virus. And it turns out people who have like a hug a day are at less risk of getting colds, just, you know, just one, probably more or better. But also that they don't get as sick for as long. That's pretty amazing medicine, right? Like if we all could

take that in a pill, we probably would, but it really just takes, you know, given someone you love a squeeze. And it's funny too, there's some research that shows the hug may need to be a little bit longer than you're usually comfortable with. Like, you know, like six to 20 seconds might be like the optimal hug length. Wouldn't you think, wouldn't you think that you would be more likely to catch a cold from the person you're hugging rather than be preventive of getting colds from wherever you get your cold from? So Mike, this is actually, so you're right. So germ theory would say that you're getting exposed to more people. And I think this is where, you know, the science gets kind of exciting and also quite telling. So just to give you

another example of that. So back not that long ago in the 80s, and then before that, it was in the, I believe the 1950s, there were studies that were done looking at children in orphanages, and there were incredibly high rates of kids dying in orphanages. And so, you know, what was done to try to protect them with that understanding is to isolate them, you know, what was done to try to protect them with that understanding is to isolate them, you know, keep the kids sort of like all separate. And then, you know, somebody came along, it's happened now several times, and sort of thought, maybe it's because they're not getting social interaction. And in fact, it turns out that, you know, the kids that were exposed to loving caregivers, which you would think that they're actually potentially getting exposed to more illnesses, they thrived.

And in fact, in some of the studies, none of the kids die that are exposed to loving caregivers, as opposed to the children that were sort of kept in the more sterile environments that were meant to protect them from illness. So those studies are cautionary because what they're saying is that we are neglecting this incredible piece of our health. So we know that we know that kindness is good for it boosts our immune system. You know, it's how it seems to help us live longer and it reduces blood pressure. It's reducing stress levels. So and it's hard because it's sort of like hidden in plain sight right in front of us. It's things that we haven't. They're right there, but we haven't necessarily appreciated.

Don't you wonder why your profession hasn't promoted this more? You don't hear a lot about it. If it's as powerful as you say, you would think every doctor would be screaming this, you know, from his office or her office? I find it exciting because when I talk to clinicians, you know, people and for the people that work in healthcare who are listening, there are really high rates of burnout in healthcare. And I think a part of that might be because we're not addressing these social factors. And it's really difficult when, you know, you are seeing a person who has a treatable illness and they're just continuing to get worse. And, you know, it's because of the things that we're talking about, you know, in the rabbit effect, all these social factors, you know,

what's happening in their lives outside the hospital. And it feels as though you can't, you can't make a difference with that. But, you know, there are all these different ways, and many of them are extremely low cost, you know, to try to get health more out in the community. So I think it's actually getting a lot of traction from people within the healthcare system because they realize, you know, health is not just seeing the doctor and health is more than healthcare. It's really what's happening in our day-to-day lives. And I think we can certainly do a better job, you know, where we invest our dollars in this country in terms of making sure that people have community supports. You know, even things like, you know, we tell as a doctor, it's like very common to come in, someone's overweight and you tell them, you know, eat a healthier diet. But we also have to be thinking about the community

that they live in. What's the access to healthy green vegetables? Are they affordable? Are they accessible? What's their neighborhood like? We can tell people they need more exercise, but if they don't feel safe walking around in the evenings, then they're not going to be necessarily getting more exercise. So we need to be thinking about all these structural things that we can actually do to make a difference to our health and invest in them. When you just tell someone that you need more social interaction to improve your health, it's kind of like telling someone who's overweight to eat healthier. If they've spent their entire life not doing that, it's very hard to know what that means specifically piece by piece. How do you have more social interactions if in fact that's not what you've done? Probably the easiest is to get,

find something you're excited about and get engaged in. So, you know, again, this goes back to like taking a class, doing volunteering, something like that. There are other ways that our social world can boost our health that don't necessarily even involve people. And I'm thinking about this right now because I have my plant on my desk and that's actually time in nature. So, you know, there's also these really cool studies showing that, you know, time in nature boosts our immune system, like natural killer cells, just being exposed to forests, like in Japan, now it's becoming a thing, forest bathing, maybe you've heard of it. But it turns out actually even having like trees on your block reduces rates of depression.

You know, so get out there, plant some flowers, get other people involved as much as you can. You know, this is really exciting data. A lot of it's been done in Philadelphia, looking when community members green vacant lots, they actually reduce gun violence in the neighborhood. So just to think about that, there are ways to get involved and to be kind that don't necessarily mean being like the bubbly life of the party or something. You know, so there's so many things that each of us can do to contribute in a way that feels

authentic to us. And that's what I would just encourage listeners to think about some of these things. And, you know, there's even studies that show in hospitals that, you know, patients who are exposed to gardens recover a day sooner. They require less intervention from the staff. They require less pain pills. You know, pain is something in this country,

like there is a lot of pain out there. You know, you just have to type in, you know, why do I feel so into Google and see what comes up. And, you know, it comes up, why do I feel so alone? Why do I feel so tired? Which is also a synonym oftentimes for depression. Why is everyone else so successful? Why is everyone else so happy? You know, people are suffering out there and it's the kind of pain that's not going to get fixed necessarily with a pill or in a doctor's office even. So we need to be thinking about how we're taking care of each other in the community and that it's a critical part of health. Well, it is so great to hear that really what you're saying is just being a good person, having friends, doing for others,

that those things have this incredible impact on health and longevity, and it's so easy to do. Kelly Harding has been my guest. She is a medical doctor, and she is an assistant clinical professor of psychiatry at Columbia University Irving Medical Center, and she's author of the book, The Rapid Effect, Live Longer, Happier, and Health and healthier with the groundbreaking science of kindness. You'll find a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes for this episode. Thank you, Kelly.

Thanks for being here. Mike, thank you so much. This has really been delightful. And thank you to your listeners for all the kindness that they show in the world. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our Lister poll results from But Am I Wrong? And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. Thursday, and Friday. Disney themed games and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life.

So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. I suspect anyone who has been or is in a relationship gets to the point in that relationship where they ask themselves, what about me? Being part of a couple inevitably means you can't always have things your way all the time. But what about having things your way some of the time? Is the relationship in balance or are you giving more than you're getting? Does it seem like you aren't getting enough of what you want?

Well, someone who has looked very closely at this important dynamic of relationships is Dr. Jane Greer. Jane is a marriage and family therapist, often featured in the media on topics regarding relationships, and she's author of several books, one of which is called, What About Me? Stop Selfishness from Ruining Your Relationship. Hi, Jane. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here and to be able to talk with you. So I think everyone in a relationship, and probably early on in the relationship, does come to that realization that things are different now. I can't do what I want, come and go as I please.

There's someone else involved here, and it isn't all about me anymore. And for some, it may be a rude awakening, but I think for everyone, it is an awakening that things are different, and that's when the trouble can start. You said it. And the problem is, the reason it's trouble

is that when you're in a relationship, the minute you're dealing with somebody besides yourself, you have two sets of needs. So you need to eat now because you're starving, but now you've got your partner who's not hungry at all. And so every step of the way, you have to be willing to consider your partner's needs. Where people have the most difficulty and experience the most conflict and trouble is that they don't feel considered by their partner, their spouse. Their partner is eating a sandwich and not asking, are you hungry, when did you have lunch, when are we going for dinner?

Their partner is doing whatever it is that they want to be taking care of without going out with a friend, they're coming home late from the office, without considering and saying, you know what, let me call my partner and let them know I'm going to be half an hour late. They just don't think. And that whole element of consideration packs such a punch, and it's really the whole, it's the heart and soul of a good relationship. So what's the thinking process that happens? Because in the beginning, or before the relationship really gets serious, you know, everything's wonderful and sunshine and lollipops and everything's going to be great, and then something goes wrong.

What goes wrong and where does it go wrong? So when you're meeting somebody, you are putting your best self out there. People start off being thoughtful, considerate, caring about what the other person's reaction and response is going to be, very much wanting to please the other person so that they like you and want to continue to be involved with you. And that goes up until the point where, okay, she likes me. She wants to be involved with me.

I can take my foot off the gas a little bit. I don't have to be so pressured. I don't have to look great all the time. And then over time, I don't have to look great all the time can translate into, I don't have to look great. She loves me. I mean, I had a couple one time who came to my office, and the presenting problem, and I mean this sincerely,

she said, I cannot look at him in that flannel shirt one more day. He wears it every day. I've seen him in it for 30-something days. I can't do it. And what did you say? What was the advice? Well, my advice to him was asking him first, what was it about the flannel shirt that he liked so much?

And he explained that it made him really comfortable and it was easy and he didn't have to think. And I said, were you aware that it was such a turnoff to your wife? He didn't realize that she was so turned off that it was actually affecting her sexual desire and interest in him. When I helped him understand the bigger picture, that, you know, it's not just a shirt, it's a statement. I mean, I get this with a lot of couples, whether it's the guy's not shaving,

whatever it is, the way we take care of ourselves is also a message. It's a statement about how we feel about ourselves, but it's also a statement of how important who we are is to our partner and how important they are to us, that we care enough to look good for them and take care of ourselves for them. So it would seem inevitable that everybody in every relationship is going to say to themselves or out loud, what about me? What about what I want? If in fact things get out of balance.

Yes, absolutely. And you know what? Very often there are times when it is, what about me? Wait a minute, we're visiting your family every week. What about me? What about my family? Or we're always going to vacation where you want to go. What about me? What about what I want? And I can just go through. I mean, that's the reason I wrote a book. I can go through a catalog of so many things that translate into, well, what about me? And, you know, a lot of times couples start off where one person is very amenable and agreeable and easygoing and it's not a big deal and they're happy to please their partner right out of the gate

and do what they want and go where they want, eat what they want. But then over time, their own needs start to surface and they start to say, well, I'd rather go here. I'd rather do this. And the other person is like, well, wait a minute. Where did this come from? You always were like going to the beach with me or you were always fine with this restaurant. And so as people grow and as people change and maybe become more vocal about their needs or their expectations about having the Met start to change so that they are looking for their partner to care and to say, all right, what about you? What do you want to do? That's where people start to clash and argue. It does seem to be that every relationship progresses to that point at some point. I mean, it's hard to imagine not having that feeling of,

yeah, well, you know, what about what I want? Why do we always have to do what you want? And, you know, the greatest challenge, which I've had with many couples, is if you loved me, you would. And so many times people translate the other person's behavior into a measure of love. Like, if you loved me, you would be on time. So they take the other person's behavior and make it about them. If you love me, you'd be on time. take the other person's behavior and make it about them. If you loved me, you'd be on time. And the other person says, well, if you loved me, you would understand that that's not my strength and I don't run on time and you wouldn't ask me. And so therein lies the challenge, the how do you negotiate?

How do you find the compromise? Where is the middle ground so that our own anxieties and limitations and problematic behaviors are balanced enough that our partners at least feel considered, that their needs count? Where is that middle ground? Well, that's what we call working on a relationship. Because for some people, they can find a middle ground, and for other people, it just remains what I call the never-ending fight. It remains an ongoing fight. If you loved me, you would do this. If you loved me, you would change. It becomes a power struggle.

It becomes a control issue. You know, the middle ground, like, for example, if you're dealing with people where one person's punctual and the other person's late, the middle ground is setting up some parameters and clarity about what, look, if you're late, I'll wait 15 minutes. If you're going to be more than 15 minutes, I'm going to head out and I'll meet you at the party at the airport. I had couples, the husband was always perpetually half an hour, an hour late, and he didn't really care about missing planes. It just didn't bother him, and it used to torment her. So they worked it out that if he was going to be more than a half an hour,

she would leave, get to the airport, and in fact, one time he missed the plane. But she didn't miss getting off and heading out on her vacation. He got there later. You know, that's how he ran his life. And he didn't see it as a problem. It's like whether it's smoking or drinking, it becomes a matter of how much does it bother the person who's doing it? How big a problem is it to them? And it has to be a big enough problem to them.

It has to make their life difficult enough that they're willing to try and change it. Otherwise, you're fighting a losing battle to try and get somebody to stop smoking, stop eating, exercise, be on time. These are very personal behaviors that are about how each individual copes with their inner life, their inner self, their anxieties, their fears.

And, you know, we come as a full package. We come with all these behaviors, some of which are loving and lovable, and some of which are really problematic. I call them love you mean it, hate you mean it moments because there are a lot of things that our partners do and we, oh, I love you, you're so wonderful. And then they say or do something awful and it's like, hate you, I hate you. And, you know, the good news is that the hate you mean it moments pass

and hopefully there are enough love you mean it moments that it balances them so that you continue to love your partner and want to stay involved with them. When it doesn't add up, when the hate you mean it starts to turn into this simmering undercurrent of resentment and bitterness and hostility, that's when relationships derail. So let's look at that example you just brought up of the guy who's in a marriage and misses planes and doesn't care, and the wife has to go on without him because he can't get

to the airport on time. And I can imagine people listening to this, myself included, that, you know, that's a line that you really shouldn't be crossing. That if you're so disengaged from this relationship that you can't show up and make the plane on time, that's a deal breaker. Exactly. That's what you would think.

So now let's do the flip side. This guy, so now think about somebody who would miss the plane and not care about the ticket, the money, the time. All right? So that's somebody who's got a lot of money. And why does he have a lot of money? Because he had a very big job and he had a very big job because he was a big shot, really bright, really important. He was, you know, he'd come into a meeting 20 minutes, a half an hour late. We, you know, we call this narcissistic, but the bottom line was in his opinion, the meeting started when he got there. He didn't like it too bad. He had so much on his plate to do. So his thinking,

most narcissistic people, they kick you and then they get upset with you for crying, like, why are you upsetting me with tears? So he comes late and the wife would be upset and he would say, how could you not understand how busy I am? Why are you making an issue over this? Don't you see how hard I have to work? If I have to be late and miss the plane, I'll miss the plane. If that's what I have to do, so I will. But I have to do this so we have the money and I have the job and I can support you and the kids the way you want to be supported. And that's the, what about me, other side of the coin. I can sort of see that, but then I can also see that if you've taken the step to be a husband and be a father and be part of the family, that the least you could do is get there before the plane takes off? That's not asking that much. Well, for him it was, because he felt he was fulfilling his role and provisions

as a dad by making sure he was financially supporting his family. So if that's what, in his mind, was being a good father, He didn't see it as a problem. The person who's got the behavior has to see it as a problem. It has to bother them or they're not going to change. I had another couple one time. She was ordering a cappuccino and just got the cappuccino. They were in a coffee shop, just got the cappuccino, was just about to enjoy the foam and start to drink it. And the boyfriend at the time said,

come on, we got to go, we got to go, we got to go. And she was like, well, why can't, I want to stay, take it with you, I've got to go. And she felt he was just spoiling her pleasure, that he was impatient, that, you know, why couldn't he just stay and let her drink her coffee? And later, and not until they were in my office did we find out that in fact he was having a stomach bout and had a sense of urgency that he had to get home. And he felt that it should be sufficient that if I say, come on, we got to go, that if you care about me, how important is your coffee? And her feeling was, if you loved me, how could you not know how important my coffee is,

and why would you ask me? And there are so many of these moments that go on in any given day in relationships, which is what makes it so, you know, really so much heavy lifting to check out and sort out and figure out the middle ground, your compromise, well, what are we going to do? If you're going to run late, how do we work it so that I'm not controlled by what to me is your out-of-control behavior? If you're a punctual person and the other person is running late,

then you're feeling controlled by them. So you've got to figure out how you can take control for yourself and not let their problematic behavior contaminate your role, you know, what you would do. Those two things seem very different, though, to me. In the case of the guy who misses the plane, that's a chronic behavior. That's part of who he is. That's not going to change. But if a guy's having stomach problems and he needs to get home to use the bathroom, why not just say so? Why not say, my stomach's upset, I know your coffee's important, but I've got to get home and use the bathroom.

Why don't you just say that? You would think, but people get embarrassed, people get uncomfortable, people feel vulnerable, and they don't want to be so revealing. There are so many times people look to protect themselves and save face and behave in ways that are confusing or confounding to the other person simply because they don't explain it. You know, if people were respectful, they would say, look, I run late. I'm probably going to be 20 minutes late. If you don't want to wait, go ahead. That's consideration. But most people who have a problem with time do not acknowledge the full extent of their problem.

They don't think they have a problem with time. They think they're going a problem with time. They think they're going to be on time. They don't really consider they get distracted or they can't end a project or it's not that important or they'll be okay and they don't mind the rushing. They can deal with it. So they keep thinking they're going to be on time. And then if you get upset or angry with them, they have a million reasons why this time they were late. And how, like I said earlier, how could you not understand how hard it is for me? So, you're the one with the problem, because you don't understand how much they had to

go through and why they're late. So, if you find yourself in a relationship saying, what about me, is that just part of being in a relationship or is that a red flag? That's a great question. That's like the best question I have to say, Mike, really. It's both. It's absolutely an inherent part of being in a relationship. What about me is inevitable, because two people, two sets of needs, it's inevitable that somebody's going to have different needs than yours. Even identical twins have a different set of needs at times. So it's inevitable that there's going to be a what about me moment. But the question is degree, how frequently, how often, how much, and how much resentment gets stirred up and how much resentment is carried around.

That's when it becomes the red flag. If you're saying, what about me? And now you're steeped in that feeling and you're resentful, then it's a problem. But, well, I guess it's nice to know that if you feel that, it isn't necessarily a problem. It could be a problem, but that there is some inherentness to it if you're in a relationship, because at some point, the balance switches. The balance of the relationship, even when it's pretty close to perfect, is going to tip one way or the other, and somebody's going to feel like their needs aren't being met. Absolutely. You know,

in my book, the first example that I gave, which is just so classic, was my own example with my husband. We were on our honeymoon and we ordered a pizza. I think we were in Italy and I offered him a bite of my pizza because he was not that hungry. And he said, no, thanks. Okay, great. So now I'm down to my last bite. And he goes, okay, I'll have a bite of your pizza. And I looked at him like he was from another planet. I said, are you kidding? This is my last bite. No, you can't have a bite of my pizza now. I offered it to you when I started. And then there were about 15 bites before I got to the last bite that you could have had at any point.

Well, can I tell you, we bickered over this probably 10 years. I just couldn't understand how he could ask me for my last bite. And he couldn't understand how if I loved him, I was like, if you love me, you wouldn't ask me for my last bite. And he was, well, if you love me, you would just give me your last bite. Fast forward, we're at the beach with his family was all in and his sister was eating a sandwich, and she was down to her last bite, and his older brother comes over and looks at her, and she looks at him and says, let me have that, and she gives him the last bite, and I'm shell-shocked. And I go, Carol, oh, my God, you just gave him your last bite.

How could you do that? And she said, well, that's how we say I love you in our family. Now, in my family, everybody knew, do not mess with your last bite. That was unspoken rule. We knew that what was loving was leave you alone and enjoy your food to the last bite. So I saw in that moment that we had two very different sets of expectations and understanding of what loving meant and how it was behaviorally expressed. And then, once I understood that, then what I did for many years, I'd say to him, you want my last bite? And he'd go, no, and I'd go, good.

But at least I had the, at that point, I knew to start to plan that if that's what's going to make him feel loved, I'm going to offer him my last bite. But the point is, is that everybody has different expectations and behavior means something different to each person. And unless you're very clear on what it means, you're going to have what about me. Well, you have really good stories, and it's encouraging to hear that you go through the same things that everybody else goes through, and that this is something that universally happens in relationships. Dr. Jane Greer has been my guest.

She's a marriage and family therapist and author of the book What About Me? Stop Selfishness from Ruining Your Relationship. There's a link to her book in the show notes. Thank you, Jane. Thank you, Mike. It's been a pleasure. Do you remember there was a Seinfeld episode about a girl who didn't swing her arms when she walked? And it brings up the question of why do we swing our arms when we walk? It's certainly not necessary. If you're carrying something in your arms, you don't swing, but you can walk perfectly fine. One theory is that it's a neurological leftover from when we walked on all fours. When quadrupeds walk, most of them do it with a contralateral gait,

meaning right foot with left arm, left foot with right arm. It helps with balance at slower speeds. On the other hand, scientists in the University of Michigan study concluded that swinging our arms adds stability, and that in fact, not swinging your arms would use up to 12% more energy while you walk. So you could actually burn more calories by not swinging your arms when you walk, but you sure would look weird like that girl in the Seinfeld episode.

And that is something you should know. If you enjoy this podcast, please share it with someone you know. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro,

who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook. Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. To be continued... loving God, and we are not its favored children. The Heresies of Randolph Bantwine, wherever podcasts are available.