Something You Should Know - Learn to Be Luckier Instantly & How to Better Spend the Time You Have

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Starting point is 00:00:28 a simple trick professional chefs use that will make you a better cook. Then, all the little factors that can actually make you a luckier person. The way that people perceive you does have a huge influence on your luck. And a lot of this has to do with the fact that when we think that people are treating us well,

Starting point is 00:00:46 we feel better about ourselves and that makes us more motivated to do things. Also, something interesting about your shoes that will make them last a lot longer. And spending your time wisely. It means dealing better with distraction. I think one thing we don't understand very clearly about distraction is that the urge to distract yourself comes from inside you. It's also absolutely true that Silicon

Starting point is 00:01:12 Valley is full of companies then waiting to sort of pounce on your distraction and monetize it. So I certainly don't want to let them off the hook. All this today on Something You Should Know. Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your

Starting point is 00:02:26 podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hey, welcome to Something You Should Know. Want to hear something cool? I thought it was cool. I just randomly the other day asked Alexa to recommend a podcast and play it, and she recommended this one. I thought that was really cool. And my advice to everyone now is to be like Alexa.

Starting point is 00:03:01 If someone asks you to recommend a podcast, recommend this one. First up today, have you ever watched a TV chef or just to watch a chef in a professional kitchen? And you'll notice that oftentimes when they season food, when they sprinkle on the herbs and spices, they do it from very high up. So is this just kitchen theatrics, or is there a reason to do it? Well, Cook's Illustrated Magazine did a little test. They sprinkled chicken breasts with ground black pepper from different heights, 4 inches, 8 inches, and 12 inches. And they found that the higher the starting point, the more evenly the seasoning gets distributed. And the more evenly the seasoning is distributed, the better the food tastes. So it's actually a good idea to season food from high up about a foot high.

Starting point is 00:03:54 Much more than that, and they found that the seasoning started landing elsewhere on the counter. So about a foot is the way to go. And that is something you should know. So I'll tell you a little something about me. I've always thought of myself as a pretty lucky person. Not that I haven't had some bad luck. A few times I've had some really bad luck. But overall, I think I've been pretty lucky.

Starting point is 00:04:21 I've been at the right place at the right time with the right people enough times that I consider myself pretty lucky. But why, I wonder? Why am I lucky when other people aren't lucky? Well, good luck may not just be chance. Good luck may be the result of something or some things that you do. Carla Starr almost died in a car accident a while back. The insurance company said the cause of the accident was an act of God. Was it? Or was she just unlucky? That started her on a journey to explore the whole subject of luck. The result is a new and fascinating book called Can You Learn to Be Lucky? Hi, Carla. Hi, thanks so much for having me. So I'll just start by asking you to cut right to the chase here. What is it, in a nutshell, that makes someone luckier than someone else?

Starting point is 00:05:14 So much of this breaks down to motivation and attention. So people who have higher scores of optimism or resilience or just daily happiness, are really, really skilled at constantly focusing their attention on good things in life. So if you have two people, right, they go out into the world, 10 different things happen to them over the course of the day. One person who is more prone to seeing the good things will think, oh, they'll be so energized by those five good things that happen during the day.

Starting point is 00:05:47 And they'll be really skilled at just kind of forgetting or conveniently sweeping the five bad things under the rug. Whereas someone else might go out into the world and experience those same ten different things. But they'll just, they won't be able to shake their attention away from those bad five things. And they'll think, this always happens to me. Oh, I can't believe this. Oh, what's the point? So what ends up happening over time is that this creates two completely different trajectories about how people engage with the world. When you think that bad things are going to happen, why me, blah, blah, blah, you start thinking, why bother?

Starting point is 00:06:26 Whereas if you think that good things are more likely to happen, you're more likely to do things and try and just keep going, and they win. And those are the people who end up winning. So it sounds like a lot of this, behind this, is self-talk, is what you're telling yourself about what's going on in your life, and that focuses your attention. Absolutely. It focuses your attention. It focuses what you expect to happen. And there's so much literature in neuroscience and psychology explaining how people's expectations influence their perception. It's very fascinating to see, especially when people expect bad things, because fear grabs our attention so much more than any other emotion. I mentioned at the beginning here that I've always thought of myself as lucky, but do you think most lucky people self-identify that way? That lucky people would say, yeah, I'm pretty lucky. Things seem to go my way.

Starting point is 00:07:24 I mean, I've seen it both ways. I've seen people who say, oh, I'm really lucky. But then, you know, you look at their life and yeah, they have a good life, but they're just really good at focusing on the positive things and practicing gratitude. Gratitude actually is a very good, reliable way of increasing your happiness because it does just this. It makes a habit out of focusing on the positive things in life. So Richard Wiseman came out with this book called The Luck Factor a few years ago. And one of his suggestions was that he would make people write down lucky things that happened to them over the course of the day. Now, these people also reportedly saw an increase in how lucky they were over the course of the study.

Starting point is 00:08:07 But since then, all of these studies and gratitude journals and happiness have shown that it's not necessarily that more lucky things happen to you. It's not necessarily that more good things happen to you. But what ends up happening is that you build a habit of noticing them and paying attention to them. And paying attention to something is what gives it value. And like you said earlier, it's so common for people to pay attention to the bad things because we're programmed that way. One bad mistake and you're out of the gene pool. Most of the time in people's days, you know, everything will go right, everything goes well, but one bad thing happens and it's so easy to ruminate on that one bad thing.

Starting point is 00:08:47 Or it's so easy to have a boring day and nothing good happened. But you know what? You know what happened on a boring day? Nothing bad happened. And that's a good thing. When nothing bad happens, that's a good thing. Right. People don't always appreciate that. One of the factors you say is really important in being lucky is how other people perceive us, yes? So the way that people perceive you does have a huge influence on your luck. And a lot of this has to do with the fact that when we think that people are treating us well, we feel better about ourselves and it makes us more motivated to do things.

Starting point is 00:09:25 The way that people treat us is obviously super important because it's giving us a cue. Oh, these people are treating you well. I should keep going. I should keep doing this. Or if people give you negative signs, you know, this thing isn't quite working out, we'll stop. What I think ends up happening is that people can often

Starting point is 00:09:45 mistake one person's opinion for an objective fact. I think everyone can relate to this, right? You're not the first person picked during gym class or something like that happens. So then what ends up happening is you start developing this narrative in your head of like, oh, I must not be good at sports. I must not be good at sports. And so then you kind of end up not really engaging in that aspect of that area of life anymore. You go to art class and maybe the teacher gives you a B and you start thinking, oh, I'm just not good at art. So it's these kinds of things. It is, it's the way that people treat you that ultimately influence our motivation. And that is really what you need to keep getting lucky. You talk about how important first impressions are, and you give the example of really attractive

Starting point is 00:10:36 people. When you meet really attractive people, you perceive them differently, you treat them differently. So talk about what happens when you meet someone very attractive. We all kind of, even without realizing this, we grade them on a curve. We give them the benefit of the doubt. We laugh at their jokes a little more. They seem a little funnier. We kind of want to be friends with them more. We'll give them more chances.

Starting point is 00:11:04 And then what ends up happening is that they end up feeling better about themselves, and they feel this greater sense of social inclusion and that people will rate them more highly. The cool thing is that about 50% of the variation in whether or not we view people as attractive is based on quote unquote grooming, which is just how much you make of what you have, right? So it's not just your facial structure that you were born with. It's, are your clothes good? Are they nice? Are they clean? Do they look professional? It's, you know, your skin, your hair, your grooming, are you in shape? All of these things are entirely under our control. There's so many other aspects of first impressions, like first impressions, if you go on someone's website, right?

Starting point is 00:11:55 How good their website looks, whether or not it was professionally designed, whether or not it has some interesting things on it. How many times have we gone on a website of a restaurant or a business if we want to hire a contractor or even a therapist? And we make all these assessments about this person's quality, the quality of their work based on the quality of their website. First impressions are really just packaging, but whether or not the packaging actually matches or is any indication of the quality of what's underneath is just kind of a crapshoot. But I think the important thing that I've learned with studying everything about first impressions is that I think I was unknowingly kind of unlucky because I was just focused on the stuff underneath the packaging.

Starting point is 00:12:44 And I was thinking, it's all glitz. It's all glamour. That's all superficial. I'm not going to put any attention into that. But whether or not you put any attention into it, into like making a good first impression or making your clothes a little nicer, you know, standing up a little straighter, people are judging you regardless. So it makes sense to put in something of an effort. I'm speaking with Carla Starr. She's author of the new book, Can You Learn to Be Lucky? Hi, this is Rob Benedict. And I am Richard Spate. We were both on a little show you might know called Supernatural. It had a pretty good run. 15 seasons, 327 episodes. And though we have seen, of course,

Starting point is 00:13:28 every episode many times, we figured, hey, now that we're wrapped, let's watch it all again. And we can't do that alone. So we're inviting the cast and crew that made the show along for the ride. We've got writers, producers, composers, directors, and we'll, of course, have some actors on as well,

Starting point is 00:13:45 including some certain guys that played some certain pretty iconic brothers. It was kind of a little bit of a left field choice in the best way possible. The note from Kripke was, he's great, we love him, but we're looking for like a really intelligent Duchovny type. With 15 seasons to explore, it's going to be the road trip of several lifetimes. So please join us and subscribe to Supernatural then and now. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is

Starting point is 00:14:25 a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes.

Starting point is 00:15:02 Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, Carla, talk about how friends affect your luck and how your friends can make you luckier. Your friends are so, so important in your luck. I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that,

Starting point is 00:15:38 I'm sure you've heard of the term homophily, or like attracts like, birds of a feather flock together. I think that people end up becoming friends with people who have similar attitudes, similar goals. But a lot of times I think that people unknowingly cut themselves off from certain lucky opportunities or certain things that might make them more successful because of peer pressure, essentially, or conformity. So a lot of times, you know, your friends might want to go out, then they would give you this peer pressure, come on, come on, stop working, let's go out. You know, but maybe your best interest would really be served by like just finishing your project. So I think a lot of times

Starting point is 00:16:20 people kind of can cave into peer pressure and not do things that would really maximize other aspects of their life. Well and the thing that you talk about that I find really interesting is this idea that we tend to gravitate towards people like us, but that if we have people in our lives who are friends but who are not like us, who are parts of other social groups, that that helps us be more lucky. Can you give me an example of that? Say you're a musician, but you also have an interest in web development, right? So some of your friends are musicians, you go out there, and then, you know, some of your friends are programmers, so every now and then some of your friends are programmers so every now and then you'll get together with these guys.

Starting point is 00:17:06 What ends up happening is that you get these two overlapping sources of information. So therefore, if any of your musician friends have some kind of tech need, you're going to be the go-to guy. If any of your computer friends have any questions about musicians, you're going to be the go-to guy. So in the book, I have this story about this entrepreneur, Derek Sivers.

Starting point is 00:17:32 He was actually, he's a musician. He went to the Berklee School of Music, and then he moved to NYU, and he started getting interested in web development and computer programming. He was the go-to guy when all his musician friends had any kind of tech need. So one of his friends asked him to help put up a website where he could sell a CD that caught on. His other musician friends said, hey, can you add my CD to that website? That just took off. So he created this company for $500. And then years later, he sold CD Baby for, I think, $22 million. So our friends can increase our luck, mostly if they don't know each other. If all of your

Starting point is 00:18:12 groups of friends know each other, then you're just getting redundant information. You're not going to get as many opportunities. So yeah, I think that was a really, really fascinating find. Talk about timing and appearing towards the end and how that impacts your luck. We see this effect in everything from American Idol to the Olympics, right? So if you go in the beginning of the competition, if you're one of the first competitors, the judges unknowingly are comparing your performance to whatever image they have in their mind of the ideal performance and what the performance should look like, because that's the most accessible information that they have.

Starting point is 00:18:49 And then as the night goes on, the judges start seeing all the other performances, and they kind of start getting a sense of, okay, what's really out there? And that's what they're implicitly judging subsequent performers on. So by the time the last few performers get up there and sing or do their ice skating routine, the judges realize, hey, this is it. These are the last few guys. What ends up happening is they end up paying attention to the aspects of the final performances that are unique. They're able to say, wow, this was the first person we've

Starting point is 00:19:25 seen all night who did this triple flip or whatever. But the funny thing is the people who went first may have had something that was just as unique and just as special, but because the order was flipped, the order of presentation, the judges were never able to say when they see the first person performing, wow, this will be the only performance we've seen, we will see all night that will have this one unique thing, right? This one jump. No one else will ever do this jump again for the rest of the night because they don't have that information. So the first performers are getting compared to this perfect idealist in the judge's head. And then over the course of the night, the image or the most

Starting point is 00:20:11 accessible information in the judge's head is replaced from the ideal things that they would want to see to what they've actually seen. So by the end, the last people to go, they get lucky and they end up getting higher scores. But in real life though, when you go on a job interview or you date someone, you don't know where you're showing up and you can't really control in what order you're showing up. If you're the first date or the first job applicant or the 10th. This is one of the reasons why flexibility is so important and so underrated and why I appreciate it more as I do research and also just as I get older and as I see all these different things in life that have happened

Starting point is 00:20:56 and how a lot of times when we get an opportunity, we might not really be able to appreciate it in full context and realize how special it is. So much of luck, the last two words in the book are say yes. Right. Yeah. Well, that's probably really good advice because that opens you up to the opportunities. You never know what that'll lead to. I mean, how many, you know, lucky stories have I heard that they'll hinge on something like, you know, I wasn't really thinking about going

Starting point is 00:21:26 out that night, but then I went anyways. And then I met this person and then we got along. And then a few weeks later, they invited me to a party. And that's where I met, you know, my husband or my new boss or the guy I started my, you know, my company with. And everybody has one of those stories. You know, everybody took a train and on that particular train, there was a guy sitting next to them who started a conversation and some magic happened. Everybody's been there. One of the things I love is that I really, I didn't write about at all, really. I didn't write about relationships that much, but I ended up interviewing so many stories about people, about matchmakers and online dating

Starting point is 00:22:10 apps. Inevitably, these stories all, they all hinge on luck. They all hinge on chance, right? There's no singular method of finding a life partner or finding a spouse. So much of it is just, yeah, I went out with this person, I did this, right? It's all these, yes, it's giving yourself more options, giving yourself more opportunities. Well, as I listen to you, I mean, you're talking about, well, you're talking about the science of luck, which in many ways is the science of life, of how life works and how you make use of opportunities and all. But it doesn't necessarily sound or seem scientific because life isn't, you know, scientific in the way we live it. It's surprising to me to hear myself say these things that kind of sound like they're coming

Starting point is 00:23:01 from the secret, you know, just focus on the good things. Walk toward the light. Show gratitude. But really, these things actually matter. There's this third wave of cognitive behavioral therapy called ACT, Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. And the whole point of the therapy is that our actions, they change our emotions, they change our behaviors, they change our thoughts. And I think that a lot of times people get caught up in this whole, you know, magical thinking thing. Before they can do anything, they have to just completely change the way they think. But it's the other way too. It's acting in a certain way. You know,

Starting point is 00:23:43 if you act more confidently and you do things that increase your confidence, like focus on good things, hang out with people who support you and want the best for you, this can increase your confidence and that can increase your motivation. And then you can take that energy and apply it to other areas of your life and sort of branch out. Well, I like how you talk about luck because it makes luck not just, you know, random chance, but it really makes it something you can work at and get better at and get luckier. Carla Starr has been my guest. The book is called Can You Learn to Be Lucky?

Starting point is 00:24:17 It appears the answer is yes. And there's a link to her book in the show notes. Thanks, Carla. Hey, everyone. Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice.

Starting point is 00:24:37 Then we have But Am I Wrong?, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our Lister poll results from But Am I Wrong? And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown.

Starting point is 00:25:10 I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts.

Starting point is 00:25:37 Nothing, when you think about it, nothing is more important than how you decide to spend your time. So much has been written and talked about, about how to manage your time better, how to be more productive and efficient, how to get more done in less time. But no matter how good you get at being efficient, your time is your time. You only get so much. In fact, if you live to be 80,

Starting point is 00:26:03 you get about 4,000 weeks of time, which doesn't sound like a lot when you put it that way. And so how you choose to spend those 4,000 weeks, or however long you have, is important because that's it. That's your life. When it's over, it's over. So let's take a look at ways we can all figure out how to better use the time we have. And here to help is award-winning writer Oliver Berkman. He is author of a book called 4,000 Weeks, Time Management for Mortals. Hey, Oliver, welcome to Something You Should Know. Thanks very much. Thanks for inviting me. Sure. I've always thought that the way time is discussed in terms of efficiency and getting more done is a really odd way to look at time, because it implies that that's what everybody wants to do, that what we really need to do is be more efficient.

Starting point is 00:26:58 But time is so much more than that. I mean, time is what we have, and it's really all we have. I think that's a really good point. I think efficiency in the absence of some sort of clear articulation of what you're trying to be efficient for, I mean, it's not only a bit pointless, it actually makes things a lot worse, right? There's these well-known phenomena, like the one that gets called Parkinson's law, the idea that work expands to fill the time available for its completion, the more efficient you get, the more stuff comes into your system, right? If you get really, really good at processing email, what will happen is that you will receive a lot more email, because every reply that you send will probably generate another reply,

Starting point is 00:27:43 and you'll get a really good reputation around the office as being someone who's responsive to email. So more people will consider it worth their while to send you email and you actually just end up busier and also less focused. So I think that efficiency on its own is completely inadequate in these conditions. What we need to do instead is to be very clear about the fact that we are not going to get around to everything. We're not even going to get around to everything that really matters to us. You know, sacrifice is going to be inevitable in this situation. It's not necessarily a comfortable message, but I think it's a really empowering one ultimately, because if you can sort of deal with the discomfort that you're going to have to neglect some things in life in order to focus on

Starting point is 00:28:25 some others. It's really liberating, I think, and certainly has been in my life to be able to kind of really focus on doing a few things that count instead of being tormented by this thought that there are lots of other things you ought to be doing or might enjoy to be doing. So give me an example of that, maybe from your own life, since you said that this has helped you. So like, what are you giving up? What have you put aside in order to focus on something else? Well, I wrote a newspaper column for many years about this kind of stuff, productivity, psychology, the science of happiness. And I think after a while, it became a bit enabling of my worst side, right? I could sort of always tell myself that I was testing out

Starting point is 00:29:12 another technique for work purposes, of course. And it meant that I could always believe that this wonderful state of total organization and calm and efficiency was just around the corner, but it never quite seemed to arrive. And what I found working as a journalist at that time was that I was getting really efficient at doing the least important things and never getting around to the things that really mattered, you know, writing the article that could, you know, make a big difference to my career or finally replying to a friend of mine who lived thousands of miles away, who'd written me a long newsy email. All these things I would tell myself, oh, that I need time

Starting point is 00:29:51 and attention for. So I'm going to put it off until I've got all this little stuff out of the way. And then I just spend my whole day and day after day dealing with the little stuff. So that was an example of a time where I was eventually able to see that, like, you have to stop trying to clear the decks in order to get important stuff done, rather than tell yourself that you're going to clear the decks first.

Starting point is 00:30:15 You have to become a little bit more okay with the discomfort of knowing that 20 more emails are going to be landing in your inbox while you do this thing. So I understand that. I get that, that, you know, it's easy to do the little things and at the expense of the big things. But I also know that feeling that if you have 20 emails in your inbox and you get them all out of the way, that there's something refreshing and liberating. And now I can go tackle that, that because now I feel like I've gotten all

Starting point is 00:30:46 this little crap out of the way. Now I can go write that letter to that guy, or I can go write that article, or I could go do something big, because the little stuff's out of the way. I think everybody's felt that. I know exactly what you mean. And I agree. I certainly have no objection to people getting the little stuff done. I think it's when it I think it's when we become so focused on this sort of unwinnable war of getting rid of everything little before we will let ourselves turn to what matters. In some sense, you have to take that advice that comes from personal finance, right and pay yourself first, you have to do the most important thing, the thing that matters to

Starting point is 00:31:25 you most upfront and just do it. Because if you bank on the idea that there'll be time left over for it, we all know from experience that there very often isn't. What do you think is going on when, as you described, you had that letter to write or that big article to write, or everybody has their version of that, that they never quite seem to get around to, yet they claim it's important. Well, how important is it if you never get around to it? I think it's a really good point. But actually, I think it's because it is important that you never get around to it. I think it is for many people anyway. It's the fact that these

Starting point is 00:32:06 things that we really care about, they bring us up against our limits, right? Not only our limited quantity of time, but the limits to our talent, the fact that we can't know how something is going to unfold. You know, if you feel that you have a novel in you, but you're kind of scared that the novel that might come out wouldn't be brilliant or wouldn't be any good. It's very sort of, it's a position of great power in a way to refuse ever to start it because you get to hang on to that fantasy. And this is something that I found in the course of researching my book that many philosophers have sort of been onto this for

Starting point is 00:32:45 centuries right this idea that we sort of we hold back from engaging in real life and actually doing important things with life because we are sort of so fond of the the fantasy that we get to hold on to that if we ever did get around to it it it would be perfect. And there's something intrinsically imperfect about bringing things into the world. So you sort of have to get over that and accept that the perfection ship has sailed and you're just going to do it. Because if you wait for perfect, you'll be waiting forever. One of the enemies of time, or at least I look at it as one of the enemies of time, is distraction. Because I'll distract myself if I'm doing something I don't really want to do, and then all of a sudden I have to go check the bank balance or Facebook or whatever.

Starting point is 00:33:33 And it's very satisfying in the moment, but later on you realize what a waste of time that was. And I could have used that time to get something done and get it off my plate. I think one thing we don't understand very clearly about distraction is that the urge to distract yourself comes from inside you. It's also absolutely true that Silicon Valley is full of companies then waiting to sort of pounce on your distraction and monetize it. So I certainly don't want to let them off the hook. But it only works because you kind of don't want to focus on the things that matter to you the most. You know, one feels this sort of internal aggravation

Starting point is 00:34:16 or boredom or restlessness precisely when you're doing the things that count. And it's so much more comfortable in those situations to sort of bounce off onto the internet and, you know, just feel comfortable again, instead of doing the thing that counts. And I have found that even just knowing that is incredibly powerful. So for me as a writer, for example, the idea that writing is going to feel often not fun, just being aware of that is amazing because it means that I don't need to interpret that as sort of a terrible sign of, oh, writer's

Starting point is 00:34:53 block is here now because I'm struggling with how to phrase the next sentence. I don't need to think that it's somehow the goal of my life to never feel that level of discomfort. I know that if I can stay with it, it never gets that bad. And the result is always something much more deeply satisfying to me than if I had sort of chased the whatever solution would have made that discomfort go away. A lot of people, though, would say, well, the reason I'm looking at cat videos is because I'm just taking a break. This is my, you know, I can't work nonstop continuously for eight hours a day. And, you know, we hear you're supposed to take breaks frequently. So I'm going to take a break and I'm going to watch some cat videos or check out my Facebook feed and then I'll get back to work. The breaks are so important and you will not find me suggesting otherwise. I think the big problem then is this is where, you know, Silicon Valley does have to take your attention that you've decided to place there for five minutes because you need a break and do everything they can to make sure that you're still there two hours later by showing you

Starting point is 00:36:10 the things that it that the algorithms have learned compel your attention the most which for many of us is whatever sort of winds us up and outrages us the most but it might also be uh cute videos and things that things that sort of appeal to you. And so that's where we need to be really conscious of the so-called persuasive technologies that are out there and find ways to deal with those because, yeah, nothing wrong with a five-minute break, nothing really wrong with a five-minute break on Facebook. It's just that it isn't a fair fight. As one of the critics of this situation, Tristan Harris says, you know, every time you go on to something like Facebook, there are a thousand people on the other side of the screen being paid often very impressive salaries to try to keep you there. our leisure activities just as we schedule our business and work activities because if you don't schedule something if you don't make a specific plan to do something even if it's just for fun

Starting point is 00:37:12 you tend not to do it so what do you think i think that a certain amount of structure to be given to leisure is actually a really powerful thing when you uh they've done research into this and when you ask people what they what they want from their spare time they think that what they want is and they say that what they want is sort of just purely unstructured uh time to just hang out and do anything at all when you actually then as part of the same research check in to find out whether they're enjoying themselves, just kind of vegging out, doing nothing. They're enjoying themselves a little bit, but not very much because they, you know, there's actually something in that sense of structure and purpose that I think gives people

Starting point is 00:37:58 a strong sense of fulfillment. The purpose does not have to be excelling in your work or becoming a better employee. The purpose can be totally self-contained within the hobby or the activity. But I think, you know, people want to have a meaning in what they're doing. And when it comes to the crunch, they don't actually want to just be sort of lounging around doing nothing, at least not for very long. Since you've done the research in how people spend their time and how they could better spend their time, what fascinates you the most about this? I think something that really fascinates me is this idea of synchrony,

Starting point is 00:38:32 this sense of whether we are using our time in coordination with other people. They did some fascinating research in Scandinavia, which basically showed that people in, I think it was Sweden, were less likely to feel depressed. And this was measured by the rate at which antidepressant prescriptions were fulfilled at pharmacies, to the degree to which more people in the country were on vacation at the same time. In other words, it wasn't just the amount of vacation you had that correlated with your happiness, which you could well understand, but the degree to which lots and lots and lots of other people across the nation were on vacation, so you can hang out with them. You can have a more fulfilling vacation if you don't have to think about all your colleagues being at work, sending you emails that are piling up or maybe trying to steal your job or take the credit for your work while you're away. There's something in this sort of coordination that people find really, really fulfilling. And yet that's sort of the exact opposite direction from which,

Starting point is 00:39:47 you know, we're heading, I think, at the moment, more generally in the US and the UK, into this much more sort of fragmented sense of being desynchronized from each other. Partly, this is, you know, the fact that companies call in their workers on unexpected schedules, if you're working in a sort of mail order fulfillment center or something like that. But it's also true of people like me who have a lot of autonomy over our schedules and are sort of freelance and can sort of on some level do what we want. It's actually just as difficult to coordinate with other people. And so because they're all following their own patterns as well so so you know it's it's such a sort of cliche among me and my friends that we can never find a time when three particular friends are all free to go out for a beer together

Starting point is 00:40:39 or something it's not because we're we don't have some spare time or some autonomy over our schedules. We're privileged to have those things, but we're all so far out of synchrony with each other that there's just everyone's got plans at different points in a way that means that our schedules never mesh. Something you said that really resonated with me was this idea about the discomfort of what matters, that it isn't always necessarily fun to do the important things, but it isn't horrible either. Like it's never as bad as you think it's going to be. It may never be as great as you were hoping it would be, but it's never that bad. And that getting comfortable with that discomfort is a big deal. I think it really is.

Starting point is 00:41:26 I think discomfort is a sort of topic that fascinates me because, yes, it is so often just the objection to feeling discomfort that is the real problem. If I can give a slightly sort of tangential example, it always reminds me of a time a few years ago when I was uh pushing my young son then in a stroller while he napped uh through Times Square in the middle of Manhattan for various absurd reasons um when the heavens opened and I was caught in one of the most extraordinary rainstorms I've ever been in in my life. He was perfectly well protected from the rain but I was a you know getting drenched and be in Times Square one of my least favorite locations

Starting point is 00:42:12 in New York and it was really obvious to me in that moment that the only problem was some sort of inner psychological objection to becoming drenched, right? And that as soon as I relaxed that, there was actually nothing intrinsically wrong with the situation at all. And maybe even something beautiful about it, because, you know, here I was this amazing natural event happening around me and my son sleeping peacefully away. The reason I bring that up is just that I think in so many cases, when it comes to doing creative work that matters, when it comes to having difficult conversations in relationships, all sorts of things, it isn't actually the discomfort that is a problem. It's some sort

Starting point is 00:42:55 of internal objection, some notion that we shouldn't have to feel the discomfort. And as soon as you realize that you probably are going to have to feel the discomfort because it comes with the territory of being a limited human, there's, you know, and so you do things because you think you're supposed to do things without clearly thinking about what do you want to do? What could you do? What are your options? I think it's that sense of understanding that we have it in our grasp to make certain important, bold decisions about what we do with our time. Absolutely, some people have more leeway around this than others, but we all do have probably more than we think in terms of some ability to choose to spend our time on the things that matter to us the most. And we're never going to get there if instead what we're committed to is this notion

Starting point is 00:44:07 that one day just over the horizon, we're going to get to do everything and be in the driver's seat and never have to say no to anything or fail in any life domain. That's just going to sort of keep this fantasy of perfection alive. And I think that there is an opportunity at this particular point in history, maybe to do things differently and to say, look, life is precious. You can't do everything. And that's exactly why now is a good moment to do something that really counts. Well, it does make you stop and think, as you point out, as the title of your book points out, the average person, you know, has 4,000 weeks to live their life, to get it all in.

Starting point is 00:44:48 And when you think about it that way, it does give you a reason to pause and wonder, you know, are you filling those 4,000 weeks with what's important? Oliver Berkman's been my guest. He is an award-winning writer who is author of the book, 4,000 Weeks, Time Management

Starting point is 00:45:06 for Mortals. And there is a link to that book in the show notes. Thank you, Oliver. Thanks for being here. Well, thank you very much. It was a great interview. Here is some math that might surprise you. Three pair of shoes rotated daily will last as long as four pair of shoes that are not. And here's why. The average pair of feet gives off about a half a pint of sweat every day. So by letting your shoes air out and dry out for at least a day or so, you prolong their life. Also, your body weight compresses the material in the shoes, so letting them sit out for a day allows that material to bounce back. By the way, if your shoes get wet, you should stuff them with newspaper or pour in dry, uncooked oatmeal. Then let them dry for a full day away from direct heat or sunlight.

Starting point is 00:46:01 Then rub with a piece of cut raw potato and polish. This is according to Joan Weiland, who's author of a book called Shoes in the Freezer, Beer in the Garden. And that is something you should know. Your review of this podcast really helps, especially if it's a five-star review. So please go to Apple Podcasts and leave a review

Starting point is 00:46:23 and help us out. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law,

Starting point is 00:47:06 her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook. Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network.

Starting point is 00:47:31 At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Something You Should Know - Learn to Be Luckier Instantly & How to Better Spend the Time You Have

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