Something You Should Know - Loneliness and The Serious Harm It Does & What’s Wrong With the Way We Buy Food

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Starting point is 00:00:17 You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, how your posture can affect your thoughts and behavior. Then, the serious problem of loneliness. Humans aren't meant to be lonely, and it can be very harmful. In fact, the Surgeon General defined loneliness as the number one medical problem in the United States today.

Starting point is 00:00:51 Not cancer, not heart disease. In fact, social isolation is as dangerous for early death as cigarette smoking. Also, if you have a valentine, what do you get them for Valentine's Day? And how we buy food and all the fascinating things going on inside your neighborhood supermarket. Did you know, for example, that grocery store employees over the past 18 months are talking about the increase in cluelessness as more guys are being asked to do the grocery shopping? All this today on Something You Should Know. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like Something You Should Know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show.

Starting point is 00:01:42 Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how

Starting point is 00:02:08 taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named the Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back,

Starting point is 00:02:24 and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed, critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi. Hope I caught you at a good time so you can listen and enjoy this episode of Something You Should Know that is now unfolding. And we start today talking about your posture.

Starting point is 00:03:06 Probably when you were younger, your parents or someone told you to sit up straight or stand up straight. And it turns out, that's pretty good advice. Because if you want to feel and act more powerful, posture can make a big difference. Research done at the Stanford Graduate School of Business looked at the behavioral effects of having a high-powered role, or title, versus being in a high-power posture. The research found that posture is more important to a person's sense of power than one's actual title or position, which I find rather shocking. You would think that if your title was president or senior vice president in charge of something, that having that title would make you feel and act more powerfully.

Starting point is 00:03:55 But in this study, researchers found that posture and only posture, not title or position, activates power-related behaviors. For example, during these experiments, participants completed word exercises and played a game of blackjack. Participants with an expansive posture thought more about power-related words and took more assertive action in the blackjack game than in those in more constricted postures. When they asked participants how they felt when they were doing these word exercises and playing the blackjack game, the people who had high-powered titles reported feeling more powerful than those with low-powered titles.

Starting point is 00:04:41 But that sense of power from having that high power position had little effect on what actions they took. It was the people with the more open and expansive and good posture who actually acted more powerfully. So sit up straight, stand up straight, and watch what happens. And that is something you should know. Loneliness is a feeling I suspect you have felt, everyone has felt, and it is a terrible feeling. Around Valentine's Day, it can be particularly difficult if you don't have a valentine or have people close to you that you can connect with. It makes those feelings of loneliness more acute.

Starting point is 00:05:28 So I thought it would be a good time to tackle the topic of loneliness and how to get rid of it. And there is no one better to discuss this, I believe, than Dr. Edward Halliwell. Ned is a psychiatrist who wrote a great book some years ago called Connect, in which he really explored the topic of loneliness and the need for connection. He also has written several other books about distraction and ADHD. His latest is a bestseller called ADHD 2.0. Hey, Ned. Thanks for being here.

Starting point is 00:06:00 Hello, Mike. Nice to be with you. So, what is loneliness? How do you define it? How do you look at it? Lonely is a lot different from being alone. You can be alone and not lonely. You can be alone and reading a book, listening to music, entertaining your fantasies and favorite hopes for the future. And you're not lonely, but you can also be lonely. And that's the active presence of absence. It's like you're feeling what isn't there. It's a terrible feeling. You're feeling that here I am alone. No one's with me. No one likes me. No one cares about me. Or so-and-so died. Or I missed my dog. Or I wish I were back home. You feel what you're missing. I love that definition that you're feeling what isn't there. Because as soon as you said that, I could feel it. I mean, that's exactly

Starting point is 00:06:59 what it is. It's that absence of something that you want or need or miss or something and it's a terrible feeling you know it is really bad for you you know in fact the surgeon general defined loneliness as the number one medical problem in the united states today not cancer not heart disease loneliness and most people don't realize how bad it is for you. In fact, social isolation is as dangerous for early death as cigarette smoking. Most people have no idea about that. If you ask them to list risk factors, they'll say cigarette smoking, obesity, genetics, don't wear your seatbelt. Nobody puts down loneliness.

Starting point is 00:07:38 But my gosh, it's right near the top of the list. And if people would make it a priority to connect, I call it the other vitamin C, vitamin connect. It is the most powerful force that most people don't make use of. I urge people, you know, if you go to the supermarket, talk to the guy at the checkout counter. He needs it or she needs it as much as you do. So help me understand why, what it is about loneliness that makes it so dangerous. Is it the loneliness itself? Or when you are lonely, you tend to do bad things like drink more, smoke more, eat more? Or is there something inherent about loneliness that is harmful? All of the above. When you're feeling lonely, your immune system suffers, and you are putting out

Starting point is 00:08:26 stress hormones that are caustic. And then what you also said, you're inclined to try to fill in the emptiness with things like online gambling, or drinking, or drug use, or dangerous liaisons, or dangerous business deals, reckless going online, connecting in chat rooms where you don't know who you're talking to. And it's really just about people trying to find a meaningful ways of connecting. And I can't tell you how many patients I've prescribed a dog for. I mean, dogs are the world's great. I dedicated my last book to dogs. I said, it's no accident that God spelled backwards as dog. Dogs are the world's best connectors. And so if you have a dog, chances are you're not going to feel lonely or nearly as lonely.

Starting point is 00:09:21 Yeah. And anybody who's ever had a dog knows that that relationship is very fulfilling. But it's still a human dog relationship. It isn't the same as connecting with people. the goal of growing up? And the answers I get are like, get into the best school you can get into, lay the foundation for making a good living. And I say, no, no, the purpose, what you want to do while you're growing up is fall in love. You want to fall in love with a person, that's fine. But with a subject, an idea, an activity, an ant, the great entomologist E.O. Wilson, who just died, fell in love with ants in a parking lot in Alabama because he was a lonely kid. So he went out to the field next door and started studying ants and became one of the great entomologists, professor at Harvard, author of many books. But it was born out of his feeling lonely as a kid in Alabama, and he found his companionship in ants.

Starting point is 00:10:27 But what is the reason, do you think, that people have such trouble connecting with people? Because, you know, there's a lot of people. There's like billions of them. So you would think that connecting with people would be easier than it apparently is. Why do some people find themselves lonely? The reason people stick with loneliness is they're afraid they're afraid of being rejected they're afraid of being sued they're afraid of saying the wrong thing you know in this age of pc everyone's afraid to say the wrong thing they're they're afraid of looking stupid and so they hold. They hold back on life out of fear and they create

Starting point is 00:11:06 their own little bubble, their own little prison, which is toxic. And so you said a few moments ago that you need to connect and that one thing you could do is, you know, talk to the cashier at the store or wave to the person next to you. That's not really a connection. That's just a kind of a polite, hi, how are you? See you later. So how does that help? Well, it actually is a connection. You'll get a little drip of dopamine when you do that. You'll get a little affirmation. You can wave to a stranger all clear across the parking lot.

Starting point is 00:11:38 If it's a snowy day or something, you say, snowy day, and he waves back. It takes a half a second. That is a connection. It's not a lifelong connection. You'll never see the person again, but don't, don't take it lightly. Small talk is very big talk. Small talk is the route into deeper relationships for sure. But it all begins with small talk. You know, the, the strong silent man is a lonely man on his way to a heart attack. You know, it's not a good recipe. So make the little chit-chat.

Starting point is 00:12:09 Don't take it lightly. It's very, very, very important. I remember hearing, and maybe it was from you when we've talked in the past, that that intense pain that loneliness causes is evolutionary. That we're not meant to be that way we can't survive if we're all alone and that that's that's a a motivation a push to get rid of that feeling and the only way to get rid of it is to go connect with people it is so true it's wired into us it's wired into our endocrine system even you know any of you listeners who've had

Starting point is 00:12:45 children, the moment you give birth, either through, you know, the normal way or through adoption, the moment you become a parent for the first time, nature sees to it that you enter into a permanent state of psychosis. Your whole body changes. Your brain changes. You fall madly, insanely crazy in love with this little peeing and pooping machine whom you don't even know. And yet you almost instantly become not only willing, but eager to give away your time, your money, your sleep, your dignity. And, you know, you got to be crazy to do it. And you say, this is so much fun. Let's do it again. We're talking about loneliness and we're talking about it with Dr. Edward Halliwell.

Starting point is 00:13:28 He is a psychiatrist, author of several books, and one of which is called Connect. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. People who listen to Something you should know are curious about the

Starting point is 00:14:05 world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker, John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today.

Starting point is 00:14:53 Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. So, Ned, it's my sense that around Valentine's Day, you know, Valentine's Day is wonderful for people who have a Valentine to celebrate it with. But that for people who don't have a Valentine or who don't feel connected, who feel lonely, it makes the loneliness even worse to watch all these other people celebrate all the love in their life. Absolutely, they do. My advice to you is maybe take that holiday as a chance to developing some kind of connection that can become meaningful. Maybe it's a time to get a dog, or maybe it's a time to go back to church or synagogue. Or maybe it's a time to take up some hobby that you've wanted to take up, even something as simple as crocheting or cooking or, you know, starting a little garden inside your house. You know, there are things you can take up that will serve as points of connection.

Starting point is 00:16:01 And then you can find other people who are interested in that. You know, and, you know, one of my favorite lines, I use it all the time. It really, it's a line to live by, never worry alone. So when you're feeling upset, worried, concerned, reach out somehow. It doesn't have to be in person. It doesn't have to be, you know, against your grain, but don't worry alone. That's when bad things happen. That's when you do self-destructive stuff. That's when you feel intense despair. That's when people commit suicide, you know, when you're worrying alone. So never worry alone is a really good watchword. And another thing you can do is when you're feeling these bleak, black moments where you're sort of ruminating, we know from brain science, there's a certain

Starting point is 00:16:51 network in the brain that takes over. It's called the default mode network, the DMN, which I call the demon. What you want to do is don't feed the demon. And what do you feed it with? Your attention. Well, do something else. Fry an egg, dig a hole, do a crossword, do something else. Shut off the DMN's oxygen supply, which is your attention. And by the way, the reason that we feed it is contentment is too bland. You don't say he or she was riveted in contentment, but you do say he or she was riveted in despair, loneliness, misery, foreboding. It's riveting. And that's why you keep feeding it with your attention. You got to be ruthless and shut it off, redirect your attention onto something else. And it

Starting point is 00:17:38 literally can save your life if you do that. But try to keep those two phrases in mind. Never worry alone and don't feed the demon. That is some really great advice because everyone who has ever, and I assume it is everyone, has ever worried alone knows that when you bring somebody else in on your worry, it somehow lightens up. It's magical. It's magical. And it really is. Suddenly the worry turns into problem solving. It is magical. It's like my thought experience. Imagine you're standing in a big, dark warehouse by yourself. You feel terrified, paranoid. If you're there with someone, you laugh. There's something about the presence of another person that instantly, as you put it, lightens the load. And the next thing you know, you're problem solving.

Starting point is 00:18:30 How do we get out of here? I've heard it described as a paradox, really, that we are, with social media and of connections aren't real connections and exacerbate the problem of loneliness because you're connected, but not in the way that people used to be connected. What do you think about social media connections? Is it that? Is it exacerbating the problem? I take issue with that point. It's all a matter of how you use it. My family, for example, uses social media to great advantage. We have a, you know,

Starting point is 00:19:12 I don't know what the word for it is, but we're all on the same little platform and we send each other messages and it facilitates, deepens human connection. Now, the danger is when it replaces human connection. That's the danger. when it replaces human connection. That's the danger. So it's all a matter of how you use it. It would seem that because loneliness is so painful, and a lot of people suffer that pain in silence, it must be because, at least in part, that it's just so difficult to get up and go try to connect with people. It's just really hard for them to do.

Starting point is 00:19:56 So what's your advice for those people who would love to connect but just don't even know where to begin? I'll tell you a quick story. Do we have time for a quick story? Sure, of course. Oh, great. Okay. Well, so I consulted some 20 years ago to the Harvard chemistry department because they had their most gifted graduate student committed suicide and left a note explicitly blaming Harvard. As we looked into it, the chair of the department, Jim Anderson, a wonderful man, basically put his research career on hold to figure out what was going on. And we discovered it was one of many suicides in that department in the previous decade. And the reason for it was the community

Starting point is 00:20:30 was horribly disconnected. It was like a dungeon. It was just, there was no connection. And it was, everyone was paranoid. There were two coping styles, work harder or get drunk. And most people did both every day. So you had an entire department with five Nobel Prize winners in it and some thousand brilliant little genius postdocs and graduate students, miserable because they were so disconnected. So we had to figure out a way to connect them. Now, with, you know, that group of people, really smart, often middle European, barely English speaking, very high IQ folks, if you said, let's have a mixer, nobody would show up because it's not in their comfort zone. And so we had to figure out how do you bait the trap? How do you bring people out of hiding? Because they were hiding, they were paranoid.

Starting point is 00:21:22 Well, you know, one of the universal answers to that question is food. So we'd reach out to the best restaurants in Cambridge and we'd cater weekly buffets where, you know, there'd be wonderful good food. There'd be some beer and wine and these introverted, shy grad students would come out of hiding for food. And the next thing you know, they get talking to one another in spite of themselves. And the next thing you know, there's a softball team, there's a symphony club, they started putting wax boards next to the elevators. So instead of making small talk at the elevator, they could draw equations and tell each other what they were working on. You meet them where they are. And lo and behold, over the course of the year, we really changed the culture of that department. So it's a grim statistic, but it's very significant. There have been no suicides since.

Starting point is 00:22:16 The proudest award I ever got was the chemistry department gave me the department medal. I'm the first non-chemist who has ever received that, but yeah, thank you. But it was, it really drove home to me, number one, how lethal disconnection is. I mean, literally people dying, but how, how plantable it is, how startable it is because it's in every, even the most introverted reclusive person wants to connect. Loneliness hurts everybody. So, you just have to find the right way. And like in our case, food was the catalyst. Food was what got the ball rolling. Then people jump in and take over. And the next thing you know, the town can go from being isolated and separated and paranoid, as so many places are these days,

Starting point is 00:23:08 to connecting. Maybe you have a block party. Maybe you have a yard sale. Maybe you have a, you know, let's root for the local team movement or something that people can join in and connect with each other without making themselves conscious about it. That's the key. Most people don't want to sit down and talk about their feelings. They're afraid of that. It makes them feel very awkward. But if you give them some task to do, some project to jump into, and some food to eat, and even better, some wine to drink, you've got a connection thing going. And it's so great to see it happen because it's what people need and you just see them brighten up like a christmas tree i mean it's just it's a wonderful thing and and it

Starting point is 00:23:51 can be you can start it truly anywhere well and as we have all experienced over the last many months here you know nothing will interrupt connection with other people like a pandemic. And at least we have electronic means to stay connected if we make the effort. Zoom, I mean, Zoom has been a godsend. And you with your podcast, I mean, you are doing a tremendous service. You have a big following. That's a huge service. People don't realize, I mean, you have regular listeners, and that's a big deal. And they don't understand. By listening to you, by tuning in regularly, they literally are extending their life. I mean, that is a proven fact. Reducing social isolation extends life. And what you're doing with your podcast is a wonderful way of reducing social isolation. So yes, it is ironic that we have

Starting point is 00:24:48 unintentionally conspired to create circumstances where one of the things we need absolutely most is really hard to get, but it is not impossible to get. And that's why I'm saying use your imagination, but reach out to someone you're on the outs with. Forgiveness is a wonderful tool for connecting. And forgiveness is a gift you give to yourself. Well, anyone who knows that feeling, and I assume it's everyone who has had that feeling, that deep sense of loneliness, knows how horrible it is. And I think this is such an important conversation to have. Edward Halliwell has been my guest. The name of his

Starting point is 00:25:30 book is Connect, which he wrote several years ago. And I promised him I would mention his new book, which is about ADHD, called ADHD 2.0. And you can find a link to those books in the show notes. Thanks for coming on, Ned, and talking about this. It was good to hear, and it was a lot of really good information. Thank you. Thank you, Mike. I really appreciate your having me on. You're a terrific, terrific host.

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Starting point is 00:27:03 New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. I'm sure you go to the grocery store and shop for food. We all do. And what's interesting is the way we go grocery shopping really hasn't changed much for several decades. You decide you need some food, you make a list, you go to the store, you wander the aisles, you fill your cart, you check out, and you go home. And sure, now you can order online and you can have your groceries delivered, but a lot of us still go to the supermarket and shop for food. But how we shop for food is starting to change, and may be in for some big changes in the next few years, according to Paco

Starting point is 00:27:46 Underhill. Paco is one of the foremost researchers in consumer behavior and consumer trends. He is a regular contributor to the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times, and he has a new book out called How We Eat. Hi, Paco. Welcome to Something You Should Know. Well, thank you for having me. So you have a pretty good understanding of how people buy food, given your history. Well, as you may remember, I spent 35 years running the principal testing agency for prototype stores and bank branches in the world. We worked on restaurants and grocery stores on six continents. And so I would think that technology has changed the way we shop for food at the grocery store, just as technology has changed so much in our lives. But you say that's not true. So how so?

Starting point is 00:28:41 The grocery stores, for all practical purposes in North America, hasn't changed much since it was invented in 1931 as a piggly wiggly in North Carolina. You know, one of the best cities to go grocery shopping now is in Mexico City, Soriano, Extra in Brazil, Exito in Colombia, all of them have reinvented grocery in a way that puts us to shame. How so? Well, for example, the typical American grocery store, the section farthest away from the front door is where they stock dairy products. The purpose is to get you to the back corner of the store and hold you there for as long as they possibly can.

Starting point is 00:29:29 At the other corner is meat. The way we've organized it is based on the technology of refrigerated cases and freezers that were the norm in 1940, not in 2020. You know, why is it that I can't buy apples, blueberries, yogurt, and cereal all in the same place and be able to cut the time that I spend in store considerably? Why can't I order some of the things that I already know that I want and be able to shop for the things that I want to. Well, that's an interesting thought, because when I think about it, every time I go to the store, I'm not buying lots of new and

Starting point is 00:30:12 exciting things to try. I'm buying the same things I buy almost every other time I go to the store. Once we reach age 40, 80% of our weekly grocery purchases are the same thing. We've already decided on the kind of dog food, the kind of laundry soap, the kind of vegetables, even the kind of meats that we consume on a regular basis. And we're also getting to a connected home, which is getting beyond Alexa and Siri. We can have a kitchen that keeps track of everything that's in our refrigerator, everything that's on our shelf, and could do a great deal of our shopping for us. There certainly does seem to be a trend, a movement to shopping online. COVID probably helped that along, where you either just go grab your groceries and go, or they're delivered to your door, but you don't have to go up and down the aisles.

Starting point is 00:31:07 And that's catching on. And it seems more and more stores are offering that service. It's getting easier. But let's recognize that the reason why people are doing it first is it lets them stay on budget. Meaning that if I walk into a grocery store with a shopping list, the whole grocery store is designed to get me to add things to my basket that weren't on that list. Whereas if I order online and somebody brings it out and sticks it in the trunk of my car, I am only buying what's on my list. Second piece is that for many parents of younger kids, they have had

Starting point is 00:31:48 the frustration of the cranky toddler getting through the store. And this way, the kids stay in the car. And you say that we're starting to see some changes and transitions in the way we buy food at the grocery store. So what are some of those? First is our access to screens and the degree to which the connection between our eyes and our brains has shifted, and therefore, how do we process information? Second is the issue of gender and who is doing the shopping for what. Did you know, for example, that grocery store employees over the past 18 months are talking about the increase in cluelessness as more guys are being asked to do the grocery shopping? Do you know that with each passing month, the number of American households where the woman is the dominant bread earner goes up with each passing month?

Starting point is 00:32:50 Third issue is the role of time, which is that our interest in shopping online isn't so much about saving money. It's about saving time. The fourth issue is really one of my favorites, which is what is global and what is local? Do you know, Michael, that in the 1950s, they said that the family farm was dead? Do you know that in 2022, thanks to 21st century technology, You can be a small family farmer with solar panels, greenhouses, and a connection direct to your customer. So you're not going through a wholesaler and you can make a very nice living.

Starting point is 00:33:36 Yet we as customers are learning to be able to consume locally and to consume seasonally. Do you know, for example, Michael, if you walk into your local grocery store on February morning, do you know where the freshest blueberries are? They're not in the produce section. They're in the freezer section. I know there are people and organizations who want better labeling of food, better packaging of food, more environmentally friendly packaging, and just better food, less sugar, less salt. Are these groups and are these people who are demanding this from big food companies, are they fringy or do they have the public on their side? Does the public really care? What about that?

Starting point is 00:34:38 Are you a fan of Marion Nestle? N-E-S-T-L-E. Marion Nestle is the retired chairman of the nutrition department at NYU and has a daily blog, which is a thorn in the side of big food. Well, yeah, I certainly know who she is. And she's been a guest on this podcast. She is one of one of those people, one of those spokespeople who is asking more of food companies. And she asks one very simple question, for example, is that if you're a cereal and have more than a certain percentage of sugar in it, do you really deserve to be on the cereal aisle or shouldn't you be on the candy aisle? And that isn't it time that we as consumers took over some of the legal issues

Starting point is 00:35:21 about how we package and how we present what it is that the big food companies are selling. That if we have a cranberry juice cocktail where cranberry juice is less than 5% of the content, shouldn't we be calling it something else? I think this is one of the things that is very definitely in the pipeline as more of us understand that dichotomy. We also, Michael, we desperately need to be able to eliminate or to cut down drastically the use of cardboard and plastic. So much of our packaging industry is governed on trucking in the 1950s, meaning that everything has to be in boxes and fit in crates when that's really not really not necessary anymore. That in other parts of the world, you can buy, for example, milk comes in a compostable bag, meaning that it isn't something that is recycled. It means you put it in your compost heap and turn it into your garden.

Starting point is 00:36:31 I mean, people are doing it in other parts of the world. Why aren't we doing it here? So the idea of buying your food online or buying it and just picking it up or having it delivered. You know, one of the reasons that I always shy away from that is I want to be able to like pick my bananas. I don't want somebody picking them for me. I have that desire. I'm not sure why, but I always think maybe they're going to pick the ones that aren't as good as those other ones that I would have picked.

Starting point is 00:37:02 Well, what if there was a hybrid trip where you could order the cans of coffee, the brown rice that you always consume, and that you got to walk into that theatrically lit produce section and be able to pick out those vegetables for you, and that the average time that you spent in the grocery store was under 10, 10 minutes. And it was only doing the things that you'd like to do and that you take those vegetables out and drive through a version of a fast food drive-through and everything that you've ordered online gets put in the back of your car. That'd be cool because it would save time. And as I said before, I enjoy grocery shopping, but what I don't enjoy is when I find myself, you know, in that aisle where there's

Starting point is 00:37:53 nothing in this aisle I want. I don't know why I'm here. I would never buy anything in this aisle, like the baby aisle. I don't have babies anymore. I don't know why I'm here. And it's a waste of time. And that hybrid thing that you just described would save me that time. Do you know, for example, less than 10% of the people walking in the front door of a Kroger store walk down the carbonated beverage aisle? If you look at the traffic patterns inside the grocery store, they are distinctly uneven. So let's take those sections that we want to go to and let us go there. And those sections that we don't need to go to, give us a way of escaping them. Are people generally loyal to their grocery store? My guess would be not especially that convenience is probably more

Starting point is 00:38:47 important than loyalty. But what do you say? There are people who say that they will only live in a neighborhood where they have access to Trader Joe's. And that some of it is because Trader Joe's has gotten beyond slotting, slotting fees. It's doing healthier choices. It's doing a better selection of products in a smaller space. And they're making money hand over fist. Yeah, well, bingo. That's the perfect example of a grocery store that has fanatics, that people are very loyal to Trader Joe's and they have found a formula that really works. That's true. Trader Joe's, Aldi. Have you been to an Aldi store? Yeah, we don't have as many of those around here, but yeah, I've been to an Aldi's. And Trader Joe's and Aldi's are now owned

Starting point is 00:39:40 by the same company, right? It's a German company that owns them all. I will let you in on a secret, even for this audience here. There was a moment, probably more than a decade ago, where I had a major North American client who had just sold a piece of their business and asked me if I would get the German family that owns Trader Joe's, Aldi, and Lidl to sell them for an all-cash price. And you know what? The German family wouldn't even talk to me. They wouldn't talk to you? Why wouldn't they talk to you? I think because they're doing so well and because there's internal competition, meaning that they're different brothers that are running different segments of the business.

Starting point is 00:40:29 It's a little like the conflict between Puma and Adidas, where they're two segments of the family that compete with each other. You've said that there are examples around the world, not necessarily here in the United States, where there's some really exciting and different ways of selling food and shopping for food. So can you give me some examples of that? What does that look like? For example, there are shopping malls in Shanghai where the vegetables that are served in the restaurants are grown inside the shopping mall. And you can visit a mushroom farm inside the shopping mall, and they will pick the mushroom, wrap it for you, or cook it for you.

Starting point is 00:41:15 How many of us would love to go to a mushroom farm and have somebody curate our purchase of mushrooms? Yeah, I'd be good, because I don't know much about mushrooms other than I just grab a package and off I go. Or that we're scared to get them in any other place other than the supermarket. One of the things that I hear that, and it's a concern I have too, is not so much about the store, but about the food, that everything has sugar in it. And people say, well, you know, you have has sugar in it. And people say, well, you know, you have to buy the raw materials. You've got to buy the produce and make it

Starting point is 00:41:49 yourself. But in what direction are we going? Are people leaning more towards convenience foods that are loaded with salt and sugar? Or are we becoming more, let's start from scratch and cook it ourselves? Because it's hard to find stuff that doesn't have sugar in it in almost everything. One of the exciting issues about our access to social media is that social media teaches us ways of being able to eat healthily and eat conveniently. I saw a 90 second clip on how you peel butternut squash, and it changed my relationship to that vegetable. And I think this is one of the things where, you know, we aren't reading cookbooks anymore, but we can sample stuff, whether it's on Facebook or Instagram, and we can learn little things. We also know that during the pandemic, the sale of small appliances skyrocketed, and that the number of people who now know how to use a rice cooker

Starting point is 00:42:55 or a slow cooker and be able to chop up something at night and have it ready the next morning is just increasing. That there are ways in which technology is going to let us get smaller and healthier. Well, I guess my big question is, I assume that grocery stores sell people what they want. Why would they try to sell them things they don't want? And there's a lot of healthy foods that are not in the grocery store. For example, I mean, you go down the cereal aisle, you don't see a lot of the low-carb, low-sugar cereals. I guess there's a few, but so is that because people don't want them, or is there some other reason that the grocery stores aren't full of them and have lots of healthy choices for cereal. This is one of the dirty secrets about the grocery store, is that the grocery store margins

Starting point is 00:43:55 on what they sell are pretty modest. That the way many of the grocery store chains make their money is slotting fees, which is that manufacturers pay to be at eye level. And therefore, if you want something that is cheaper or healthier, you have to do a better job of looking up and looking down. I know people have heard about the psychology of the supermarket and we've talked a little bit about it, about how, you know, the milk is in the back and the meat is in the back. So you'll have to walk through the whole store and stay longer. Are there other little quirks about the store

Starting point is 00:44:33 that maybe people don't know that would be interesting to know about why they do what they do and lay out the store the way they do it? Do you know why there are huge displays of carbonated beverages at the doorway when you walk in? No, but you know, I have always wondered why that is. Part of that reason is our consumption in the grocery store is based on three criteria. What's on our list,

Starting point is 00:45:01 what we see and think maybe should have been in our list, and the third is what is a complete impulse purchase. The reason why those huge displays of beverages are at the front door is you walk in and go, my kids are coming home from college next week. Do I really want them drinking beer or would I rather have them drinking diet Pepsi? Well, I find it kind of curious that there are all these innovations in food shopping that you've been talking about that are happening in other countries that we don't really seem to have here, at least not yet. And it'll be interesting to see if some of these things that you spoke about will come our way. I've been speaking with Paco Underhill. He has

Starting point is 00:45:45 been one of the top researchers in consumer behavior and consumer trends for many years. He's contributed to the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, and he has a new book out called How We Eat. And in the show notes, you will find a link to that book at Amazon. Thanks, Paco. This has been fun. Well, you can come back and talk to book at Amazon. Thanks, Paco. This has been fun. Well, you can come back and talk to me anytime you want to, Michael. It's not always easy to come up with a new or interesting gift to give for Valentine's Day. So what is it people want to receive for Valentine's Day? Well, according to a survey done in 2019,

Starting point is 00:46:29 just over 3 out of 10 women said they would like to receive a card, just a card, while 28% are hoping for chocolates or candy. 27% said they would like flowers. Another gift many women say they would like to receive, 18% of women, said they would like to receive, 18% of women, said they would like to receive jewelry, followed by a certificate for a massage or spa day. Now for men, and this really surprised me,

Starting point is 00:46:55 41% of men said that they would not like to receive anything for Valentine's Day. 16% of men said they would like chocolate or candy, while 15% said they would like to receive a card. 9% of men said they'd like to get a bottle of wine or liquor to mark the occasion, and about that same percentage, about 9%, said they would like a gift of electronics. Breakfast in bed was also a popular option.

Starting point is 00:47:24 7% of men said they would like that. And that is something you should know. I would like to appeal to your kindness and generosity and ask that you tell someone you know about this podcast, suggest they give it a listen, show them how to listen, and hopefully they will become a listener and follower of this podcast. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager,

Starting point is 00:48:11 but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook. Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan.

Starting point is 00:48:37 Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. To be continued... that ours is not a loving God and we are not its favoured children. The Heresies of Randolph Bantwine wherever podcasts are available.

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