Something You Should Know - Money Hacks to Build Wealth & How Buildings Affect Your Health and Happiness

Episode Date: October 26, 2020

First impressions count. One big reason why is that once a person makes judgements about you, they can be difficult to change even if they are not true. This episode begins with 3 things people decide about you within the first 30 seconds and how to make sure you put your best foot forward. Source: Sherry Maysonave author of Casual Power (https://amzn.to/2Thh1I7) Why should you fill your gas tank on Monday instead of Friday? Does transferring credit card balances to lower interest rate card make sense? What’s the best way to save money at the grocery store? Why should you always order a large pizza? These are just some of the questions I discuss with Lisa Rowan, author of Money Hacks: 275+ Ways to Decrease Spending, Increase Savings, and Make Your Money Work for You! (https://amzn.to/34iOM24). Listen and I am sure you will hear ideas you can use to spend less and keep more of your money. People love a bargain. That’s why outlet shopping has become popular. So why are outlet stores always out in the middle of nowhere? Listen as we discuss the psychology of outlet shopping and why it may not always be the great deal some people think. https://consumerist.com/2009/08/11/how-outlet-malls-fool-shoppers/ When you walk into an awe-inspiring building, you become friendlier. When kids work in rooms with high ceilings, they become more creative. In short, the room or building or environment you are in has an impact on how you think and on your well-being. That is according to Sarah Williams Goldhagen, an award-winning writer who has written about buildings, cities, and landscapes for many national and international publications. She taught at Harvard University’s Graduate School of Design for several years and is author of Welcome to Your World: How the Built Environment Shapes Our Lives (https://amzn.to/3oem3mW). Sarah joins me to explain how building design impacts thought and behavior in ways you never knew. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As a listener to Something You Should Know, I can only assume that you are someone who likes to learn about new and interesting things and bring more knowledge to work for you in your everyday life. I mean, that's kind of what Something You Should Know is all about. And so I want to invite you to listen to another podcast called TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks. Well, you see, TED Talks Daily is a podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday in less than 15 minutes. Join host Elise Hu. She goes beyond the headlines so you can hear about the big ideas shaping our future.

Learn about things like sustainable fashion, embracing your entrepreneurial spirit, the future of robotics, and so much more. Like I said, if you like this podcast, Something You Should Know, I'm pretty sure you're going to like TED Talks Daily. And you get TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts. Today on Something You Should Know, wherever you get your podcasts. larger size pizza. Their biggest pizza is going to give you the more meat, cheese,

sauce, and dough for the money because the surface area is just so much greater on a larger pie. Also if you like to go outlet shopping there are some things to be aware of and you may not notice it but the rooms and buildings you're in have an effect on you. Access to natural light, access to views, height of the ceilings, texture on the walls. We now know that these kinds of factors profoundly affect how kids can learn, how people heal, what you think, and not in a little way, but in a big way. All this today on Something You Should Know. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world,

looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly

about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know

with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome. There's been a flurry of reviews left on Apple Podcasts and a couple of other places, but I was just looking at the ones on Apple Podcasts before I started this episode. And they've been very complimentary about this podcast and about me. And thank you so much if you're one of the people who left one of those reviews. Thank you. that in, and I think it helps us create a better program. First up today, your appearance really does matter, according to image consultant Sherry Mazenov. She says people decide three things about you within the first 30 seconds of meeting you, whether they're accurate or not.

And all three are based on how well-dressed and how well-groomed you are. First, education level. The better your appearance, people assume you have a higher level of education. Number two, socioeconomic status. The better dressed you are, the higher socioeconomic level you are perceived to have. And third, desirability. In a professional environment,

the more professional you look, the more desirable you will appear. Women who wear tasteful makeup earn 20-30% more than women who wear too much makeup or none at all. Too much or no makeup sends out a message of low self-esteem. And that is something you should know. I bet just about everybody wishes they handled their money a little better. I mean, how many times have you regretted wasting money on something, or that time when you paid too

much for something, or you wish you had bought that car when you had the chance, or wish you'd never bought that car when you did. Money decisions can be tough. And here with some very practical help is Lisa Rowan. She's a writer and editor. She's also a podcaster. She has a podcast called Pop Fashion. And she has researched and written a book called Money Hacks,

275 Plus Ways to Decrease Spending, Increase Savings, and Make Your Money Work for You. Hi, Lisa. Thank you so much for having me. So you've researched all these ways people can optimize their money because I assume we aren't particularly, or many of us aren't particularly good at optimizing our money. And so what is it that you wish people would do

differently in general to make their financial life better? If only they would stop avoiding thinking about their money. It is just so easy to ignore problems that you might have. And that's not to say that everyone is in a dire financial situation. But people will spend a lot of time ignoring how much money they're putting into their retirement account or how much they're saving. And if they just spent a little more time hanging out with their money, I like to say, it would be a lot easier for them to anticipate problems, be able to put solutions into place, and really have a much easier life. A lot of it comes down to sitting down, taking time. I always tell people to pour a glass of wine

or a cup of coffee, get a cookie, and just sit down with your money and be able to spend some time with it. And know that not every month is going to be the same and that's okay. You can't set a budget and then forget it and expect it to run itself. You're gonna have to maintain it like you would a garden. So let's dive into some of the specific hacks that you uncovered because these are really good. And

let's start with a problem that fortunately hasn't happened to me too many times, but I hate it when a bill doesn't get paid. Either, you know, the bill got stuck under a stack of papers, or it got lost in the mail if it was paid by mail, or I forgot to hit submit on my online bill payer. Whatever the reason, the bill doesn't get paid, I get hit with late charges, and I hate that because, you know, it was my fault and I should have known better. It's really tough because no matter how many gatekeepers you put into place, whether it's a reminder on your phone or something scrawled into your calendar, everyone messes up at some point, right? So the best thing to do is not to get too hard on yourself. You know, don't beat yourself up that you made these mistakes. But think about how you can make

a change later. You don't have to just eat the cost. You can talk to them about it. If you're someone who only occasionally pays something late, they might be able to waive the late fee that they've charged you. They might be able to give you a little bit of a forgiveness offer there. I've always found, and since I don't do it very often, when I do forget to pay a bill or somehow it's late or whatever, if you call them, as long as you don't call them very often, like maybe once a year or so, they usually will reverse the late fee. And if they jacked your interest rate up, they'll usually put it back down. I mean, that's been my experience. Exactly. Because in the long run, your credit card provider or your bank, they want you to be happy.

Remember, you're a customer. And so they're hoping that you're going to stick around for a very long time. So the more that they're willing to work with you to manage your finances and the situation that you're in, the more you're willing to turn around to your friends and say, you know, I had a great experience with Bank X. You know, if you're looking for a new bank, I would recommend them. They were really great with me. So it's always worth having the phone call. I would say the one caveat to know is that some of them have rules where you can only get those fees waived once or twice a year, like you mentioned.

So if you have recently called and asked for a little bit of leeway and you're planning to call again, don't expect them to be as willing to help you out. But if it's truly an occasional thing, they're probably going to work with you. What's the 10-10 rule? The 10-10 rule is if you are shopping, if you're an impulse shopper, which a lot of times I can be one. I like to go out and have a good time and come home with a bunch of bags from a bunch of boutiques. But if you want to get yourself under control, wait for 10 minutes. So you sort of give yourself a timeout and you say, I'm going to wait 10

minutes. I'm going to step outside this store or I'm going to, you know, just step over here for a minute and sort of cool my jets and think about whether I really want to purchase this item. After 10 minutes, if I still want to get the item, I can go ahead and get it, but there's a monetary catch there. If the item costs less than $10 and you're still thinking about it, you can go ahead and get it. If you're not sure after 10 minutes, and it costs more than $10, put it back and come back to it later. So you're really thinking about an impulse purchase in terms of what it's going to mean long term for your wallet. If you're thinking about buying a soda at a convenience store that's going to cost you $2, maybe it's not something where you need to have this big,

long talk with yourself in your brain. But maybe you are looking at a pair of shoes that you see and the shoes are on sale at the mall, but they're on sale and they're still $120. That's a much bigger decision that could have an impact on your wallet. So give yourself the 10 minutes, think about it. And if you're still not 100% sure you need those shoes after the 10 minutes, it's time to walk away and maybe come back another day. Generally, I believe people think that signing up for credit card rewards where you get 5% off grocery stores this month or 5% off your Starbucks bill this month if you use that card, that generally that's a good thing to do. Is that a good thing to do? Usually it's a good thing, but you have to keep in mind that banks and credit unions and credit card providers, they all know that we love to play games and win

at games. So if you know that you're going to get 5% off each time you shop at maybe the same grocery store, a particular grocery store, well, you're going to want to drive the extra mile or two to get to that one. So you could, in the quest for getting these rewards and sort of winning the game that your bank has set up for you, you could find that you're spending more money in the long run. So if you look at your spending and see that, you know, you're going a little too far in order to earn those rewards, it's time to take a step back and see if they're a really good match for you, because it sounds like they may not be a good match. There may be another bank or another credit card that has rewards that are more in line with what you're

spending and where you're going, and it makes a more natural fit. But it's tough when they're sending you those emails all the time, and they make it seem so easy to earn these rewards, to earn this cash back. But you don't earn anything unless you spend money, and that can get a lot of people into trouble. One of your recommended hacks is to keep larger bills in your wallet, which seems a little counterintuitive. Like maybe you would want to not have big bills because if you have big bills, you could spend them. So explain that one. Sure.

I will give you one of the ones from the curb mindless spending chapter, which is to carry larger bills in your wallet. It's something that seems so counterintuitive that if you're going to put a $20 bill or a $50 bill in your wallet, that that's going to stop you from spending. You think, oh gosh, if I have the money, it's there, I'm going to spend it. But for a lot of people, this is a brain trick that psychologists talk about. If you have a larger bill in your wallet, you're less likely to want to break that bill. Whereas if you had 20 bucks in your wallet,

but it was all $1 bills, you're going to spend a couple dollars here, a couple dollars there. You're going to come home at the end of the day and have maybe four bucks left and you'll wonder where all of your money went. If you have a larger bill in your wallet and you have to think long and hard about what you're spending that cash on, it's going to make you pause for a moment before making that purchase, which I think is really helpful. But that is particularly for someone who might use a lot of cash. I'm someone who uses cash sometimes, but not all the time. So it's a sort of your mileage may vary thing

depending on your personal habits and how often you hit the ATM. Well, one thing I've noticed is I've used less and less cash over the years. You know, it's just easier to swipe a card or use Apple Pay or something because it's easier. And because it's easier, I often wonder if I'm spending more than if I did actually have to put the cash down on the table. It is a lot easier, but then you reach the end of the day or the end of the week, and you don't even remember where you went, especially because a lot of places will email you a receipt or text you a receipt. So you don't have that thing in your hand

that reminds you what you did. So it really puts the onus on you as a consumer to think back, whether it's on a daily basis or a weekly basis, to look at what you spent. Where did your money go? Was it worth it? Did you see anything you want to change for later? And it's, you know, digital tools make it really easy to spend. They also make it really easy to save. But it's still up to you and your human brain to be thinking about how to do all that wisely. Why should I fill up my tank on Monday and buy the biggest pizza? Oh man, you're hitting on all my favorites. I love this. So filling up your tank on Monday is great because everyone knows that you do all your fun stuff on the weekend.

So on Fridays and Saturdays, and even Thursdays sometimes, gas stations know that you're about to fill up your car. Maybe you're going to go away for the weekend, or you're going to run a whole bunch of errands. And they know that you're not really going to be worried about the price of gas because you've got plans that you've got to get to. So they jack up the price a little bit. You might not notice it because it's a couple of cents here or there, but gallon after gallon, that adds up. Meanwhile, gas stations tend to lower the prices per gallon on Monday morning. So if you fill up on your way to work or after you've dropped off the kids at school, you're more likely to save back that couple of cents per gallon than if you had filled up on Thursday or Friday. So unless

you're planning on taking a big road trip on the weekend, I say plan to fill up at the beginning of the week. And the other one that you mentioned is one of my favorites, which is about pizza, one of my favorite topics. And this one comes down to geometry. Again, I've told you I'm not a great person with numbers,

but look, when it comes to food, I can get on board. When you order a larger size pizza, whether it be a large or an extra large, whatever the pizza chain calls it, their biggest pizza is going to give you the more meat, cheese, sauce and dough for the money. If you say, oh, it's just me, I'm ordering for myself, I'll just get a medium pie. You're actually paying more per slice than if you paid for the larger pie because the surface area is just so much greater on a larger pie. So I always recommend order the biggest one that you can possibly fit in your fridge and wrap up the extra slices or freeze them or call a friend and have them split it with you because it just makes

more financial sense, in this case, to buy in bulk. I'm speaking with Lisa Rowan. She is sharing some really great money hacks and she is the author of the book, Money Hacks. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot.

Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than

most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker.

Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, Lisa, switching to saving money, you say that you should only have two savings goals at a time. So explain that. This is one that can be tough to follow because more and more bank accounts allow you to segment your savings accounts out into sub goals or a bunch of different goals.

Maybe you have an emergency fund, a vacation fund, a car maintenance fund, a kid's school uniform fund. And it's great that you're saving for all of these things, but it can slow down your progress for each one. school uniform fund. And it's great that you're saving for all of these things, but it can slow down your progress for each one. And that makes your brain feel like you're failing, even though you are succeeding by saving money towards things that are important for you. So I like to advise people to choose just two savings goals, make them your primary goals, and focus on those wholeheartedly. Maybe it's building up your emergency fund and maybe saving for books for next semester. And for everything else,

you know, you have it on your mind, but it's not going to be your priority. When you've made some progress, you can see that progress, you're feeling motivated, then you can take the time to switch things up either because it's seasonal and maybe, you know, you've taken that vacation. But then you're able to ebb and flow with your goals and choose ones that fit the season, both of the year and your life. So don't be afraid to scale down your savings goals and really prioritize what's important right now so that you can make really healthy progress on your savings.

It seems like we pay too much for things just because we don't think about them. I'm thinking of like car insurance, for example. And when was the last time you checked to see if there's a better deal somewhere? Yeah, a lot of times we pay for things that we think we need to pay for, but we haven't really done a lot of research on. Maybe it's a bit of insurance coverage that really isn't necessary for us as a renter or a homeowner. Or maybe it comes down to, you know, for a lot of people, we forget to comparison shop when it comes to those important pieces of coverage like health insurance or auto insurance. And the truth is, they say you should be checking your car insurance every six months to see if there's a better deal elsewhere because that is such a competitive industry. Everyone wants your business. And finding a competitive offer elsewhere doesn't necessarily mean that you need to change companies

because if you bring back another offer to your current company, they may be willing to work with you and to give you a better rate. But it's really in your best interest to look at what offers are out there because sometimes we just get comfortable paying too much for things that, you know, really shouldn't cost us so much. And with insurance, I mean, there are plenty of things in life where being a loyal customer is a good thing. But with insurance, it doesn't necessarily or really pay to be a loyal customer. You're just paying for coverage on your car.

And whether you've been paying for a year or 20 years, you're just paying for coverage on your car. Being loyal gives you nothing in addition. Exactly. You know, you're there to get a service from this insurer. And think about it. It's someone you don't call unless there's a problem, right? You might forget about your insurance company, you know, six months at a time or four months at a time. And so they're so similar in their services right now, once you reach a certain level of protection, that really, you don't owe it to any particular company to stick with them for a long time. Like they say they really value you, but they more so value your dollars. And you have to remember at the end of the day that a company may say that they treat customers like family, but you are not their family. You are a customer and you need to think about your best interests at all times.

What about saving money at the grocery store? Because a lot of us go there frequently and buy stuff and probably spend more than we should. And one of the questions I'm wondering is, is there any reason to believe or is there any data that, you know, if you shop at home and have it delivered, you'll spend less than if you actually go to the store and wander through the aisles? There is actually a bit of research that shows that people spend less and not necessarily because they're buying less, but because they're changing how they order. So when people are shopping online to get their groceries delivered or for curbside pickup, and people get a chance to stay in their homes, look around and say, okay, what do I need this week? What are my meals going to be? This especially was true when people were cooking more when the restaurants were closed. And it gives you more of a holistic sense of what is truly on your list. And if you shop in a recurring sense with any of these online services, they will

bring up your last grocery order and say, okay, what do you need to reorder? What do you need to refill? And it takes a lot of that decision making out of the process for you once you've made the initial decision. So people are shopping a little smarter when they're thinking about what they actually need at home. And then it takes away all of that distraction of being in the store, seeing what's on the end cap, looking at the sales circular, getting distracted. If you have ever taken kids to a grocery store, you know that your path is going to get off track faster than you ever would have expected. And so it just cuts out. It almost puts blinders on because you're just thinking of what you need, what it's going to cost. It shows you a running tally while you're shopping online

so you can really better prepare for what your cost is going to be. Now, I will say that the online grocery providers are getting smarter in suggesting products to you and trying to get you to take advantage of sales that they might have exclusively for online customers. So they are getting hip to putting the blinders on and just thinking about your own pantry. But there's still a lot of benefit for someone who maybe wants to simplify their grocery shopping life. You recommend that people clean the back of their fridge to save money, so I guess I'll need you to explain that. A lot of people forget about how their energy costs can eat away at their money over the

course of the year. So some of the things that seem really sort of nasty that you may be ignoring are things that can help bring down your energy costs. It's not just about defrosting your freezer every now and then and making sure that there's not a big block of ice blocking that part of your freezer. It's also about pulling your fridge out from the back of the wall and vacuuming down where those coils are. They might also be under your fridge. So you might be getting down on your knees and vacuuming underneath.

But these coils help release heat from the refrigerator and they often get caked in dust. And that can make it harder for your refrigerator to cool your food. And so it's using more energy to do this very simple task that you need done in your house. And so it's more expensive to run your refrigerator for a year. The same goes for cleaning out and switching your air filters. There's a small cost to an air filter, but it keeps things running in a more

optimized way. And if you can do these things and really keep up with your living space, it can reduce those energy costs. And one thing I think people wonder about is when you get those credit card offers in the mail and to transfer a balance and it's 0% for six months, a year, is there a trick to this? Or is that actually as good as it sounds? It does sound great. I've taken advantage of a lot of them when trying to get out of debt over the years and they work great if you have a plan. So here's the thing. If you can set a plan and pay off whatever debt you've put on that 0% offer in six months, 12 months, 18 months, you know, it depends. They all vary. If you know that you can pay off the money in that amount of time, it's a great deal. But banks and credit card companies

know that most of the people who take advantage of that offer will not make good on it. And so when the offer is up, they'll go back to their regular interest rate of 16 or 20%. And then the credit card company makes money off you again. So it's one of those things that they do to make sure that you're a happy customer, you know that you got a great deal on your interest rate for a while. And you're so happy that you have this opportunity to save money while you're paying down maybe a big bill or a couple of bills. But the bank knows that they, at some point, maybe they're not going to make money off you, but they're going to make money off somebody who takes that offer.

And lastly, why should I keep my oldest credit card? Your credit score depends on sort of a pie chart of factors. And one of them is the age of your credit overall. So if you're someone who just graduated from college, maybe you've got three credit cards because you're excited to be out in the world, the credit card companies and the credit bureaus know that you're still new to getting to know credit.

And you might be more risky for slipping up and making a bunch of charges, maybe being late. And that can impact your credit score. It can make it go down because you have less experience with credit. Meanwhile, say you take that first credit card you opened at 22, when you keep it until you're 32, 42, 52, it shows the credit card company and then the credit bureaus that you're so responsible. You've had this credit card for a long time. You've managed your bill. You've paid it on time.

Maybe you don't charge a lot on it anymore. You just kind of keep it in your back pocket. But by having it, you're showing the length of your credit history, the length of your responsibility, and you are lengthening that average overall of your credit history when it is added into that calculation for your credit score. If you close your oldest card, it shrinks the age of your credit down to maybe the rest of your cards you've only had for five or six years versus 15 or 16. Well, there are a few topics that are more important to people than their money and what to do with it and how to keep more of it. And this has been really helpful. Lisa Rowan has been my guest.

The name of her book is Money Hacks, 275 Plus Ways to Decrease Spending, Increase Savings, and Make Your Money Work for You. And you'll find a link to that book in the show notes. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you for being here. Awesome. Thanks so much for having me. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love

our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me,

we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong.

And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. The buildings and spaces we find ourselves in have an impact on us. Often we don't notice it or we don't really attribute how we feel or think to our environment,

but nevertheless, it really does matter. And understanding how it matters is important to your health and well-being. Here to discuss this is Sarah Williams Goldhagen. She is an award-winning writer who's been writing about buildings and cities and landscapes for national and international publications. She's taught at Harvard's Graduate School of Design for several years, and she's author of the book, Welcome to Your World, How the Built Environment Shapes Our Lives. Hi, Sarah. Welcome. Thanks, I'm happy to be here. So I've always been sensitive to how different buildings and different rooms I walk into make me feel or think or change me

in some way. And really it's about the design of those spaces, right? It's the way they're laid out. Those spaces and how they are designed is what affect us. And when I say design, there are lots of factors that go into it. Access to natural light, access to views, height of the ceilings, texture on the walls, you know, you go on and on. Design is a lot of different things. But we now know that these kinds of factors profoundly affect how kids can learn, how people heal, what you think, how you feel emotionally, and so on, and not in a little way, but in a big way.

And of course, there is some cultural variation, but there's also a lot we can say that is more general about how people respond to certain environments because human beings are human beings. They grew up in habitats. They need natural light. They need water. They walk forward, et cetera, et cetera. And so it's this really fascinating shift where in the past, I think most people have thought about environments as kind of stage sets for their lives, and their lives are what's important. You know, I mean, when you drop your kid off at school, you're thinking about whether you made the kid lunch and whether the kid has the lunch and so on.

You're not thinking about whether the kid's standing on the curb and how high the curb is and whether cars are coming. But those things that we don't notice are as important as those things we do. And so can you give me some specific, very specific examples of how these kind of environmental factors affect people? The field was really kicked off with a study in the 1980s of a group of patients who were recovering from gallbladder surgery. So same doctor, same nurses taking care of them in post-surgery at the same hospital. The only difference was that some patients were placed in rooms on one side of a corridor and the rooms looked out on a brick wall,

as sometimes happens in hospitals. And other patients were placed in rooms across the hallway, and those rooms looked out on a pastoral view. And the patients that were placed in the rooms that looked out on a pastoral view healed up to 30% more quickly and were released from the hospital nearly a full day earlier. And they had many fewer requests for pain medication along the way, just because they had a room with a view. There's a recent study on a very different kind of topic where we've discovered that feelings of awe, the kind of feelings that you get like when you walk into a cathedral, for example, or, you know, a large

monumental space where you just go, whoa, feelings of awe actually promote pro-social behavior in people. Really? Well, how does that work? The hypothesis is, and this they don't know for sure because you can't, you know, even if you're tracking neurons inside a brain, that doesn't mean you know what that person is necessarily thinking. But the hypothesis is that a feeling of awe gives you a sense of being smaller than you are. It sort of takes you out of your own egotistical self, but also makes you understand that everybody else is feeling that way too, and so you have more of a sense of a collective.

So you're part of the group. Correct. But what they do know is they have studies that test pro-social behavior. You know, will you share a pencil with someone if you're in competition with them to get a piece of candy, that kind of thing. And it's very clear that all states promote pro-social behavior. Classrooms that have high ceilings, students score higher on tests of creativity than classrooms that have low ceilings.

What? Yeah, I know, I know. I mean, all of this is just, to me, it just blows my mind, but it's there. And just as important, there are things that we know about how the effects of bad environments on people, poorly designed environments on people. We know, for example, that streetscapes that are really boring, that don't have enough stimulation, actually make people feel nervous. What does that mean, streetscapes that are boring? Like what? For example, I live in East Harlem. Down the street from me is a parking lot where Con Edison trucks park.

And around that parking lot, because it's not that safe a neighborhood, is a very tall brick wall. And if you walk along that very tall brick wall, which looks the same on one end of the block as it does on the other end of the block, and no design at all to it, it's just bricks all the way, you'll feel more nervous than if you're walking on a street that has entrances and stoops and places to go in and lots of opportunities for you to do different things. But it does seem that, for example, how creative a child is has much more to do with perhaps their environment at home or who they hang out with or their genetics much more than the height of the ceiling in their classroom.

Genetics is about like 10%, maybe 15, maybe less. But there are all sorts of other factors that determine how well a person does in his or her life. And those social determinants are, for example, access to exercise, or how much they exercise, or sense of community, sense of place, social isolation, things like that. And what's clear if you look at these social determinants of health grids is that nearly every factor within them, not every factor, but nearly every factor within them, is shaped by the built environment. I'll give you an example. Obesity.

There are studies came out about 10 years ago by a guy named Richard Jackson who showed that obesity was much more prevalent in suburbs than in cities. Why? Because you can't get anywhere without being in your car. You're just simply much more sedentary. And a lot of the urban thinking that you see about putting in bicycle paths and making cities more walkable and so on, come from, Richard Jackson is a public health specialist actually, come from Richard Jackson's realization that it was the configuration of the built environment that was in part contributing to an obesity epidemic in the United States.

So if the built environment, the buildings and spaces that we're in have such an impact, what of those things are the most important? For now, the big ones are natural light, for sure. Access to nature is huge okay so we know that people who have regular access to natural environments do better across their boards stress levels are better cardiovascular system is better attention levels are better kids with adhd do better when they have access to nature. I mean, I could go on and on, right? But most people don't live in nature. Most people live in built environments. And we spend over 90% of our time in those built environments. So what can we take and use from all this stuff that we've learned to inform us about how to make better built

environments or just as important, how not to make such bad ones. When people think of good design, I think they think more about how it looks rather than what it does for you. People think that good design is nice to have, not a need to have. And when you see how much of an impact both good and bad design has on people and the kinds of impacts it has on people, that simply has to change. Design becomes part of the public health conversation because terrible design has terrible impacts on people. So I want to ask you to filter through what you know about this. The thing that I find really interesting when I go into offices, although not lately, but

when you go into offices and you see all these open offices where people sit in a different chair every day. And I think that can't be good, but it is so common. office plan is exactly the wrong approach where you have loft-like spaces where people are supposed to do individual work and enclosed spaces where they're supposed to do group work. The open office plan as it's evolved, one, we know it's absolutely not the creativity incubator that it's knocked up to be. It's the opposite. And interestingly enough, it's much worse for women than it is for men, because women don't like to be watched. Neither do I. Neither do I. I hate it. The other thing is, which you mentioned, is these hot desks where nobody owns a desk and different people are at the desks every day. People really, in order to feel identified with an institution, people need to feel identified with a place.

And if you don't have a place that's your place within that institution, it's just not going to be as good as if you did. I think the open office plan is beginning. Major corporations are beginning to realize that if they want to take well-being seriously, that this is something that they absolutely need to reconsider. And what about a more traditional office? Are there things you see when you walk into a traditional office that you see would be better if people only knew to do it? I'll just follow up one comment before I go to that. Just to give you an example, I mean, the reason that people use these open plans

is because they're a lot less expensive. Well, sure. And, you know, and they're flexible. So they're good for the landlord, not good for the tenant kind of thing. So much so that there is a certification system called the Well Certification System for Buildings that just came out, which specifically addresses well-being. It's the only one in the country, and it's just getting off the ground, and they have hot desks in an open plan. And I was there last year, and I thought, what are you guys thinking about?

All right, and traditional, you know, natural light is really so much more important. And to follow up on your question about more traditional offices, and this is true. Look, I live in Manhattan, right? Natural light, everybody's starved for natural light. But people don't realize that the sense of malaise they have for four months a year is directly linked to the fact that they're not getting natural light. And so what really needs to happen is, one, public awareness and education, two, education of architects and designers, because a lot of architects and designers don't necessarily know this stuff.

Some may intuit some of it, but they don't necessarily know it. And three, policymakers have to start incorporating this information into the way they manage procurement for new schools in the New York City public school system, for example. What other things, like you had mentioned early on about how high ceilings help children be more creative, which I don't think anybody would ever imagine that to be the case. Are there other things like that that people maybe don't know that influence us in terms of the buildings and the spaces we're in? If you paint the ceiling sky blue in which kids take tests, they'll score higher on IQ.

If you, just staying on creativity for a minute, if you give people a test and they sit, a test of creativity and they sit at desks that have lamps on the desks and you click the lamp on while they're taking the test, they'll score higher on creativity because that primes them for the metaphor which we all have, which is bright light, bright idea. So creative insight, it's a specific kind of creativity where you may have to make a sort of non-logical jump. And if you prime a person by switching on a light while they're trying to solve a problem like that, they're more likely to solve it. I know, I love this stuff too. I'm glad you do too.

Well, it's so interesting that these things have the effect they have and we're completely unaware of it. We have no idea that these things are influencing us. Do you have another one? Well, this one is not necessarily related to the built environment, but there are built environmental implications of it. Someone did a study in which they had people scoring resumes for appropriateness for a certain job and competence. And they handed out resumes to, I don't know, 20 participants, whatever, on clipboards, and they said, score these resumes.

And they pulled them back. What they didn't tell the participants is that half of the clipboards were really heavy and the other half were really flimsy. And the people who had the heavy clipboards consistently scored their candidates as more substantive and competent. That's very strange. Well, it is and it's not. We really think metaphorically, actually,

and the metaphors that we use are often based in our own, I mean, this sounds sort of academic and jargony we use are often based in our own, I mean, this sounds sort of academic and jargony, but they're based in our own embodiment. And, you know, the fact of the matter is our experience is that things that are weighty are more substantive. And there's no reason, if you think about it in terms of the kinds of associations that people make, it's not that huge a leap to think, well, you know, someone who felt more substantive seemed more substantive. Well, this is really interesting because the environments we're in clearly do affect us, all of us, and yet those effects essentially are under the radar.

We don't notice them, we don't consciously think about them. So it's good to talk about them so we're more aware. My guest is Sarah Williams Goldhagen. She's an award-winning writer who has written about buildings, cities, and landscapes for national and international publications. She taught at the Harvard University's Graduate School of Design for several years, and she's author of the book, Welcome to Your World, How the Built Environment Shapes Our Lives. You'll find a link to that book in the show notes.

Thank you, Sarah. Thanks for being here. Okay, well, this was fun. I'm glad that we spoke. Outlet shopping. You find some friends, you pick a day, you pitch in for gas, and you all hit the road to the outlet stores. Ever wonder why outlet stores are always out in the middle of nowhere? Well, first of all, the real estate is cheaper for them. But more importantly, the more effort it takes you to get there, the more you're likely to spend.

It's true that you can find some great deals at the outlets, but face it, even if you don't find exactly what you're looking for, you're not likely to come home empty-handed after you've made a whole day of this trip. Research shows that people spend up to 80% more at an outlet mall than at a local mall. The word outlet alone is often used to get your business. We tend to associate it with lower prices on big name quality brands. But it turns out that many stores actually produce lower quality merchandise specifically for their outlet stores. And that is something you should know. We bring you this podcast three times a week.

Every single week, I ask nothing in return other than you share this podcast with someone you know. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro,

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Chinook, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a co-founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lightning, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. During her journey, Isla meets new friends, including King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, and learns valuable life lessons with every quest sword fight and dragon ride positive and uplifting stories remind us all about the

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