Something You Should Know - New Science of Character and Personality & Why Everyone Seems to Be Arguing

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Starting point is 00:00:18 That's why there's BetterHelp Online Therapy. Connect with a credentialed therapist by phone, video, or online chat. Visit betterhelp.com to learn more. That's BetterHelp.com. Today on Something You Should Know, did you know Memorial Day has a precise moment of remembrance? I'll explain that. And the latest research on human personality and just how flexible your personality can be. For example... To say that a person is extroverted is not to mean that they may not at times act in ways that are introverted when the need to rise.

Starting point is 00:00:57 So there's a flexibility in our personality that I think serves us very well. Also, do you know what you should do if you get stung by a bee? And have you noticed that people seem to argue today more than ever? Yeah, I think there are a lot of reasons for that. One is simply that for a lot of reasons, we take things more personally now than we used to, don't we? And I think the other reason, there really is a lot to argue about. People are arguing about the very basics of human existence. All this today on Something You Should Know. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast.

Starting point is 00:01:38 And I tell people, if you like Something You Should Know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation.

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Starting point is 00:02:43 Something you Should Know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome. This episode of Something You Should Know is publishing on Memorial Day 2022. And while it is the unofficial start of summer for many of us,

Starting point is 00:03:08 it is also the day that we remember and honor those people who died in service to their country. Since 1971, Memorial Day is observed on the last Monday of May. But before that, from 1868 to 1970, it was always observed on May the 30th, regardless of what day of the week it fell. It wasn't until 1971 that Memorial Day was made a national holiday. Congress established an exact moment of remembrance on Memorial Day. The National Moment of Remembrance Act was adopted in December 2000 and it encourages every citizen to pause each Memorial Day

Starting point is 00:03:50 at 3 p.m. local time to remember the men and women who died in service to our country. You'll notice that Major League Baseball games played on Memorial Day usually come to a stop during that moment of remembrance. And for the past several years, Amtrak engineers have taken up the practice

Starting point is 00:04:09 of sounding their horns at precisely 3 p.m. The Department of Veteran Affairs says that Memorial Day is celebrated in late May because that's when flowers are likely to be blooming across the country, and those flowers can be used to decorate the graves of fallen soldiers. In fact, the holiday was originally named Decoration Day. In 1869, the head of an organization of Union veterans established Decoration Day as a way for the nation to honor the graves of those who had died in the Civil War with flowers. And that is something you should know.

Starting point is 00:04:49 A topic I've discussed here before and that I find particularly interesting is human personality. What makes you, you? Why are you different than me? Where do our unique personalities come from and how changeable are they? One reason I find this so interesting is a few years ago I had on this podcast as a guest Brian Little. Brian is at the forefront of research on the topic of personality and he's back to discuss the very latest news on the topic. Brian is author of the book, Me, Myself, and Us, The Science of Personality and the Art of Well-Being. So he's back to fill us in on the latest. Hi, Brian. Welcome. Thank you very much. So as a quick recap, I know we discussed this a

Starting point is 00:05:39 couple of years ago, but what is a personality? How do you define it? Personality is the way in which we are, each of us is like all other people, like some other people and like no other person. So it's differences in the way we think, feel and act. And it's massively consequential for the way in which our lives go. But not everybody is happy with their personality or at least parts of their personality. There are always things you want to change. And I always wonder, like, when you try to change your fundamental personality, that that's likely doomed to fail. No, we used to think that, in fact, William James once coined the phrase, by the age of 30, your personality is set like plaster. We now know

Starting point is 00:06:37 that that's not true, that people and their personalities can shift over time. Usually not dramatically, but for short-term investments in projects that matter to you, you can change. And it's quite ubiquitous to say that a person is extroverted is not to mean that they may not at times act in ways that are better characterized as introverted when the needs arise. So the notion that we have fixed traits, I think that notion is somewhat less held in scientific esteem than it used to be a number of years ago. There's a flexibility in our personality that I think serves us very well. So I understand that personalities shift over time. I mean, my personality has changed. I mean, I'm not the same person I was 10 years ago. My personality is different. So I understand that, and I understand that people can change their personality for the occasion, you know,

Starting point is 00:07:47 pull it out of their bag of tricks and be someone else, be more assertive when they're not typically. But you can't, if you're a shy person, you can't decide one day, well, I'm going to be an extrovert from now on and for the rest of my life. Or can you? The honest answer to that is we still don't quite know. There's a very active research program going on now on precisely that issue. How much can we change? What is the extent of that change? And how permanent might that change be? What we know now is that it is easy to change in the relatively short term. Robin Williams used to describe himself as a site-specific extrovert. And every time he went on stage, he enacted that role of extrovert quintessentially. But did he actually ever become an extrovert? He would say no. He would, like many of us, describe himself as an introvert.

Starting point is 00:08:51 And it would seem that it would be so difficult to change, for Robin Williams to change from being an introvert to an extrovert full time, is it would just be too effortful. It would take too much work. It wouldn't feel natural and it would be exhausting to try to be somebody you're not. That's precisely right. That's exactly right. But you may be in a situation where you have have very little choice but to protractedly act out of character. And sometimes your listeners may say, yeah, actually, I've been acting out of character for 17 years because of my partner. I'm naturally a very shy person, very introverted, a little anxious. But my partner is fully engaged in the social life. I adore my partner. And so I have colluded, as it were, to present myself and actually sometimes feel myself to be an extrovert. In fact, I'm a pseudo extrovert. You might be saying of yourself right now, this isn't really me. But I think it's important to realize that that is not necessarily

Starting point is 00:10:14 abnormal. It may actually be quite heroic. It may be noble. You're acting against your biogenic disposition in order to advance something that means the world to you. And we often do it out of professionalism, like Robin Williams did. But we also do it out of love. You may be a naturally disagreeable, rambunctious individual who suddenly has his life transformed by the fact that there's a little seven-pound baby in his arms, and he is completely shifted into gentle, soft nurturing. Is that phony? Is that in any sense disingenuous? I don't think so. I think we're more complex than you've got a basic nature and you better stick to it or life isn't meaningful. Do you sense that most people like their

Starting point is 00:11:11 personality or most people wish it was different? There's recent research on this that suggests that most people, when asked along the big five traits of personality, there are very predictable changes that they would like to make, whether they're sufficiently strong that they would devote part of their life to achieving those is another matter. But the big five, as you may know, spells out the acronym OCEAN, openness, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism, or the opposite of neuroticism if you want to avoid the OCEAN acronym, stability. And if you ask people how they would like to be on each of those dimensions, in Western culture, what you find is that most people would like to be more open in contrast to fixed in their

Starting point is 00:12:06 worldview. They'd like to be more conscientious. And there are all sorts of implications of that. Extroversion, people tend to want to be more extroverted, even though we know that there are benefits that accrue from being more introverted. Agreeable, most people want to be agreeable or more agreeable. And most people prefer to be lower in neuroticism or conversely, high instability. So there is that expectation that people would, if given a choice and a chance, would want to shift in those directions. One of the things we know as psychologists is that there are real benefits to both ends of those normally distributed traits. There are aspects of being super conscientious that you can pay a price for. There are aspects

Starting point is 00:12:59 of extroversion that are dysfunctional. And the same with introversion, the same with the opposite ends of each of those big five dimensions. So I think that's important to realize that there are costs and benefits to both ends of those frequently invoked dimensions. Do you think that most people are accurate when they place themselves on those spectrums? Yes, I do. If by accurate, you mean, do they tend to show agreement with other individuals who know them well, who are also asked to rate them? So the match between your own self-rating and those of others who know you well is quite high. An extroverted person whose self-rate is extroverted is not likely to be seen as introverted by other individuals. There may be some exceptions to this, depending on the role that you're playing in your life and where these other people see you most often. But generally speaking, people have a pretty accurate view of where they

Starting point is 00:14:09 stand on the big five, at least as indexed by agreement with other individuals. We're talking about the latest research in the fascinating topic of human personality. My guest is Brian Little. The name of his book is Me, Myself, and Us, the Science of Personality and the Art of Well-Being. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a co-founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lightning, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. During her journey, Isla meets new friends, including King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table,

Starting point is 00:14:56 and learns valuable life lessons with every quest, sword fight, and dragon ride. Positive and uplifting stories remind us all about the importance of kindness, friendship, honesty, and positivity. Join me and an all-star cast of actors, including Liam Neeson, Emily Blunt, Kristen Bell, Chris Hemsworth, among many others, in welcoming the Search for the Silver Lining podcast to the Go Kid Go Network by listening today. Look for the Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. People who listen to Something You Should know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives,

Starting point is 00:15:36 and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts.

Starting point is 00:16:26 So, Brian, I'm wondering about the connection between personality and motivation. And I guess what I mean by that is, for example, is there a certain personality type that is, say, more likely to exercise or eat better? Is that personality-driven or is that something else? It's intimately linked to personality. For example, the trait of conscientiousness. Those who are high in conscientiousness are likely to get things done, get them done well, get them done on time.

Starting point is 00:17:06 They're likely, as you would not be surprised to hear, to do well in school, to do well in their organizations, to get promoted more than those who are lower in conscientiousness. What people are sometimes surprised to hear about themselves when they reflect on their conscientiousness is that they're also likely to be healthier. And they're also likely, perhaps surprisingly, to live longer. And the reason so a person's health is quite intimately related to their conscientiousness. They take their pills, they check their weight, they check their blood pressure. And so it's not surprising on reflection that they tend to be healthier individuals. Well, you brought up something that I think a lot of parents in

Starting point is 00:17:57 particular would find this curious. You may have two kids, one who's very conscientious, you know, does his homework, makes his bed, does all those things that just make it easy. And then you might have a kid who's lower on the scale of conscientiousness who doesn't do all those things. And it drives parents crazy because is it that he doesn't or she doesn't care? Do they wish they were more conscientious and it's driving them crazy? Why would someone not be conscientious and why would someone be conscientious on their own without having to be told to do stuff? What's going on there? It's intriguing, isn't it? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:18:42 As parents, we're really surprised when that second one comes along. There's an interesting theory. It's been partially supported in empirical studies, so I should put in that caution. But there's a notion that looks at what I call niche identity. And it's been linked in some studies to birth order. So the firstborn, as it were, gets the pick of the niche. They can express their biogenic dispositions with impunity, and their parents can shape it to their expectations as well. When the second child comes along, that identity niche is the

Starting point is 00:19:27 conscientious one, let's say, or the extroverted one, let's say, has already been taken. And so in the family dynamics, you could compete, but he's probably two years older, she's a year and a half older than you. So it's sort of hard to compete. So what you do is you set up your own identity niche. Now, this isn't conscious, of course. You don't consciously say, she's always the good girl, so I'll be the bad girl. But there seems to be a kind of psychological pressure to developing your own self. And consequently, this is why you often find that kids that you would expect to be very similar on personality traits, in fact, are quite different. So the child who is not conscientious doesn't look at the one who is and go, oh, I wish I was more like that.

Starting point is 00:20:16 Or does he? Not necessarily. In fact, in many cases, they realize that they can never be as conscientious as that kid who's two years older. And they decide to be the funny one. The funny one is often late, but as a hilarious excuse for why they're late yet again. I think, as I say, that the empirical work on this is complex and the processes are complex. So it may well be that when one is seven and the other is nine, the seven-year-old is now able to say, boy, my brother really gets a lot of rewards and a lot of loving when he acts the way he does. I think I will copy him. Of course,

Starting point is 00:21:01 that happens. That's why these are complex phenomena rather than simple cause effect. I know that you talk about how these five elements of personality can predict in some ways how your life goes. So can you run through the five elements and what you mean by that, for example? With openness, it is conducive to leading lives that are creative and you're able to shift into new domains that others don't explore. Conscientiousness, you're likely to be able to do tasks that are normative and expected and you do them well. They're not necessarily creative, but they have important implications for keeping society rolling along. Extroverts are able to bring positivity to situations and to notice the good things that are going on and

Starting point is 00:21:55 orient to them. Agreeable people keep the group going. They're lovely to have in groups because they avoid conflict. And they act in such a way as to bring others into fruitful engagement with each other. And even neurotic individuals, who I prefer to call highly sensitive individuals, they have a function. I mean, they're like canaries in the mine. A highly neurotic individual, particularly one who is also introverted, sees things that are happening that their more extroverted peers will not notice. They see a hint of antagonism in the group they're working in. flicker of frustration in their partner in a way that a more stable person may simply be oblivious to. Now, it is true that they may over-infer, they may see threats that do not materialize. But without those who are sensitive, perhaps oversensitive, to the dangers in our environment, we're at risk. We need to have

Starting point is 00:23:09 those perceptions play a role in our group functioning. And I think this is something that people may not appreciate. Do you think that the goal of changing your personality is a worthy goal, if this is something that's really bothering you? Or is that likely going to fail and your personality changes much more organically as life deals what it deals to you, rather than you specifically saying, I'm going to be this way instead of that way? I think that it depends very much on what your core projects are in your life. It seems to me that in the final analysis, the most important question we can ask of an individual is not what type are you or what's your basic trait structure. It's what are the things you're pursuing that matter to you. And there's certain core projects that enjoin us to act in ways that take us out of character.

Starting point is 00:24:16 And I think that as long as they are sustainable, those projects, they bring great meaning to our lives, and they contribute importantly to the shape of our life. If we do that, we may find that we're starting, as we discussed before, to burn out. And so a necessary consequence of this pattern of dynamics is that you have what I call restorative niches. I'm a classic introvert, but as a professor, I like to act out of character. And at 8.30 in the morning, I'll stand on my head to get my students excited. But after a lecture, I need to find what I call a restorative niche in which I can become more introverted and lower that level of stimulation,

Starting point is 00:25:03 even if it means hiding in the washroom for my students with my feet up. I need to do that in order to retain the capacity to go back the next day and pursue that core project of exciting my students. And I'm not rare. Many of us are like this. We pursue projects that give meaning in our lives. In my judgment, those projects are more important to understand than what type of person we are. Well, when you think about it, your personality is who you are. I mean, you have your personality.

Starting point is 00:25:38 I have my personality. And that's essentially what separates us. That's the difference between you and me. And I think it's worthwhile to understand what a personality is and how changeable it is and why it is the way it is. Brian Little has been my guest. He is one of the leading experts on the topic of personality. He is currently a senior fellow in person analytics at the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania. And the name of his book is Me, Myself and Us, The Science of Personality and the Art of Wellbeing.

Starting point is 00:26:12 And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Brian. Appreciate you coming on. Thanks very much, Wayne. Cheers. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts.

Starting point is 00:26:48 Hey everyone, join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong? Which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus we share our hot takes on current events.

Starting point is 00:27:09 Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our Lister poll results from, but am I wrong? And finally wrap up your week with fisting Friday where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to don't blame me, but am I wrong? On Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts new episodes every Monday, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday.

Starting point is 00:27:36 It seems we live in a world today where everyone is arguing. It's no longer okay to have differing opinions. You have to tell someone who disagrees with you why they're wrong. Yet when you think about it, most arguments don't result in the other person changing their mind. No one says, oh God, I'm such an idiot. I don't know what I was thinking. You're right. I'm wrong.

Starting point is 00:27:57 And yet people still argue. Maybe it's human nature. And since people are going to argue, arguments must serve a purpose. They must matter. So let's serve a purpose. They must matter. So let's take a look at why they matter with Lee Siegel. Lee is an author of seven books. He's a writer and cultural critic who's written for Harper's, The New Republic, Atlantic Monthly, The New Yorker, and The New York Times. And he is author of a book called Why Arguments Matter. Hi, Lee. Welcome to Something You Should Know. Great to be here.

Starting point is 00:28:27 So I'm wondering, what's the difference between an argument, a fight, or a quarrel, or are they all the same thing? A quarrel, of course, is an argument that takes place between two egos. A quarrel is too infused with emotion to be an argument. So when people say, let's not argue about it, what they really mean is let's not fight. But an argument isn't a fight. It's a reasoned disagreement where both sides want to win. At the same time, both sides know they can't win and they're going to have to work out

Starting point is 00:29:00 a compromise. Well, that all sounds nice and civilized, but a lot of the arguments that I see on television and social media, it's people getting really nasty with each other. Yeah, I think there are a lot of reasons for that. One is simply that we just take, for a lot of reasons, we take things more personally now than we used to, don't we? And I think the other reason is that there really is a lot to argue about, no? You know, people are arguing about the very basics of human existence, sexuality, gender, how to raise our children. Those things really were never part of the public argument.

Starting point is 00:29:46 They were never part of our political life. Nobody in 1958 was arguing about pronouns, for example. So there's a great deal to argue about. And it's not surprising that some of these arguments, because they have to do with identity, that they get so personal and out of control. And so what's the advice to keep it from getting so personal and out of control. And so what's the advice to keep it from getting so personal and out of control? Well, I talk a lot in my book about empathy, which is an overused word, sometimes confused with sympathy. Empathy is just feeling what the other person is feeling, but just the basic ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes. And I think that a good mental exercise

Starting point is 00:30:25 for arguing is to make the opponent's argument more fully and more convincingly than your opponent ever could. And then you kind of take a turn and then try within the boundaries of reason to take the argument apart. But first you have to make the other argument. You have to master your opponent's argument before you proceed to attack it. And so how do you do that? I mean, if you're arguing with someone and you think their position is just completely crazy, off base, how do you make their arguments for them? How do you do that? I don't know. Let's take an extreme example. Let's take somebody who thinks the election was stolen in 2020 and someone who thinks the election was legitimate. Let's say

Starting point is 00:31:16 I take the side of the person who thinks the election was legitimate and I'm arguing with someone who's convinced that the election was stolen. Well, I'm going to try to see things through that person's eyes. I'm going to descend into it the way a kind of method actor prepares for a role. I'm going to look at my side, the Democratic side, and see a bunch of elitists. Oh man, they make me angry because nobody likes to be talked down to, nobody on any side. A bunch of people who lie for a living just to get what they want. People on every side. Everybody deals with that in life.

Starting point is 00:31:50 All that stuff makes me angry. People who seem to control, have their levers on all the powerful forces in society, education, the media, publishing. Wow, I don't like that. Nobody likes a situation where the fix is in and i'm going to look at at my own side through that lens and i'm going to get pretty angry and i'm going to start my argument by saying i i know how you feel i know what you mean i know that you feel talked down to and condescended to i feel feel like that. I saw my father who went bankrupt. I saw him go through that. And then starting from that point of view, I would begin to sort of make the turn towards my

Starting point is 00:32:33 own point of view. But along emotional lines, I would say, well, I feel the same way. I feel that in being told that my vote was the product of a lie, that I'm being manipulated. And so we're both being bullied. Let's look for things that are provable facts. Let's look for evidence. Let's look for the most reasonable figures on each side. And I gradually try to turn the argument around to my point of view. But I think in order to be a good arguer,

Starting point is 00:33:07 you have to be a little bit of a parent and you have to be a little bit of a therapist. Everybody who's a parent has argued with a contrary child. You know, children can get maniacally fixated on their belief that they're right. And then, you know, you want to be a little bit of a therapist and you want to reach out in a kind of empathetic, kind way to the other side. Then you begin to invoke reason, evidence, fact. Might not work, but it's certainly better than screaming and insulting from the outset. So you're really kind of meeting them where they are and then seeing if you can find that common ground

Starting point is 00:33:45 and then get them to see your point of view rather than scream at them for being an idiot. What you have to do is acknowledge someone's dignity as a person. You know, that's the starting point. And you have to first show them that you respect them. And once you do that, I think that once you establish a kind of complicity, you know, I teach a literature class at a university, and the main thing is the first class, you establish complicity. You're in this thing together. You're kind of conspiring together. You can do it through humor. Humor is essential to this enterprise. You can do it without it, but a joke always helps. Making people smile, you empower them, you make them feel good about themselves.

Starting point is 00:34:33 I guess you have to be a little bit of a salesman to pitch your point of view in an argument. Once you do that, then they begin to cut you some slack, then you can get passionate. And yet, when people argue on social media, it's hard to acknowledge the other person as a person because it isn't a person. It's just words on a screen, which I imagine is why things can get out of hand because it isn't personal at all. I mean, if you're on Twitter, you only have 200, 280 characters at a shot, right? And if you're on social media, yeah, you're just looking at the screen, which basically is just a form of a mirror in a way. And you're just, you know, you're arguing, you're inside your own head. The opponent is a stick figure. That's the problem, you know.

Starting point is 00:35:23 But if you're arguing in person, well, boy, there are so many things you can do in person to placate someone, to make them feel human, to make them feel welcome, right? Just the way you look at somebody. Well, it certainly does seem that arguments are getting nastier, that people are getting nastier towards other people when they disagree. Do you see it getting worse? Can it get worse? Boy, I, you know, I, I'm a half optimist and I think that things always get worse as they get better. The pendulum swings in American life and people really want to be in the center. Everybody I know is either left of center or right of center. I know very few extremists.

Starting point is 00:36:03 And I think because the media is so focused on the extremes and amplifies them, it seems that we're living in a more extremist world than we are. But most people, they want the old Freudian qualities, right? Work, they want to be successful in their work, and they want to be able to love and to be loved. It sometimes seems to me that arguments don't matter, because I'm not going to change your mind, you're not going to change my mind. So what good can come from this other than we just get mad at each other? You know, there are cases in which argument just, as you just said, Michael, that really they could just walk away from,

Starting point is 00:36:43 and why do they need to get themselves up into a lather over it? Right? Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I think that happens a lot with people that are just, there's no way it's too polarized and there's no way anybody's going to budge from their position. So why are we doing this? Well, indeed, you know, if I, if my wife yells at me this morning and I didn't, I left a pile of dishes in the sink and she yells at me and she makes me feel bad about myself. And then in the course of my work, somebody says something about Ukraine that I don't agree with. I'm going to blow up against them and argue vehemently. But it's really my wife I'm angry at, you know. So much of this is symbolic and so so much of argument is, because it involves emotion, you know, it draws its energy from other things that are going on in our lives.

Starting point is 00:37:32 Since we're all going to argue throughout our lives with other people, what advice do you have that would make, besides what you've said so far, advice that would help the arguments go better? That we're all in this together. I know this is going to sound really kind of sentimental and cloying, but you know, we're in this together. Our portion of life is small. Life passes very quickly. Anything can happen. The things that are very precious to us are fragile. And if we take a step back and see our lives under the aspect of mortality, of fragility, and see that everyone is subject to that, and our worst enemies, well, they're going to die someday. They're going to weaken and get ill. Take a step back and see that not everything is at stake every moment. If I'm arguing with my neighbor about immigration, whoever wins, we're not going to change immigration policy, either of us.

Starting point is 00:38:34 Take a step back. What are we really arguing about? To really kind of think it through. I might be arguing because my wife made me feel bad. He might be arguing because his boss yelled at him. You know, just to kind of take a step back. That's all. See things in the largest context possible. But when you do state your position, when you are trying to let the other person know that you have a difference of opinion, is it better to just state it? Or is it better to work up to it or is there a strategy? Great question. I think everything depends on the context. If it's a personal thing,

Starting point is 00:39:12 if you're at a dinner or something like that, you always have to preface it with something soft. I see your point. And as I said before, concede to the person everything, so much of what they're saying. Concede their own humanity. Concede their own experience. Sometimes if, you know, I mean, if it's an argument on a soccer field over the treatment of your kid, an argument that can easily degenerate into a quarrel or something worse, well, you might at the outset want to be, you know, gentle but firm and say, you know, I have to take exception to what you did. I really don't understand it, something like that. In those cases, you know, everything depends on tone of voice.

Starting point is 00:39:56 If you're making a written argument, everything depends on the language that you choose and the cadences. So I think context is everything. Well, it just seems that so many arguments end up with no real resolution, that people get upset, they get mad at each other, they make their case, and they walk away upset, and nothing has changed other than now people are upset. there's got to be a better way. Sometimes it's really great to sort of shift gears. I was once watching, I sometimes go on YouTube and get lost in stuff, you know, and there was this great interview with Marlon Brando, with Dick Cavett, the old Dick Cavett show.

Starting point is 00:40:42 And Cavett was asking questions to Brando that I guess bored Brando. And Brando, he wanted to derail the line of questioning. So he said, you see this bracelet? He pointed to a turquoise bracelet that he had. He said, Stevie Wonder gave me this on the plane. Yeah, I was just sitting there and Stevie Wonder came up to me and said, man, I really love your stuff. I want you to have this bracelet every you could hear a pin drop just silence and an actor knows how to do that just totally shift the ground from underneath your opponent that's a great thing to do uh as as a cooling off tactic but also as a disarming tactic yeah you know it's interesting my wife did this to somebody just yesterday we

Starting point is 00:41:23 were at my son's soccer game and there was a guy guy on the sidelines, and he was giving the ref a really hard time, which he's not supposed to do. There's rules about that. You know, you're supposed to respect the ref's decisions and all this. And people were yelling at him, and my wife just happened to walk by him, and she said, you know, these refs are volunteers. Well, you know, then I would like to inscribe a copy of my book to her because that's a great, and that took the wind out of all the hostility, I bet, right? Sucked it right away. The guy was just bewildered, like, boy, am I an idiot. So that's, you know, that is exactly what I'm talking about. I have nothing to add to that. She shifted the ground. She changed the weather all of a sudden. And people are speechless, you know, because again, everything's context. You introduce a

Starting point is 00:42:17 new context, all of a sudden, people being human have to adapt to the new context. Yeah. And when it's like that, it's very hard to switch because you're so invested in the other context that, whoa, it's like whiplash. What? That's right. And if you go back to the other context, well, then you look like a jerk, right? Well, he'd already, that ship had already sailed. Well, then you look like a jerk twice in a row.

Starting point is 00:42:43 Right, exactly. Well, you know, I have friends that get into these arguments with people, mostly politics, and they get so frustrated. You know, I was trying to talk to this person and they just wouldn't listen. And I don't typically enter into those kinds of discussions and those kinds of arguments because not because I don't have feelings and beliefs on certain issues. It's just that I don't see the point in the argument because as I've said before, that it just doesn't seem like anything gets accomplished. They don't change your mind. You don't change their mind. And all people do is get upset. So what's the point? Lee Siegel has been my guest.

Starting point is 00:43:27 He is an author, well, he's authored seven books, and his latest is called Why Arguments Matter. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Lee. Thanks, Mike. It's really been great to talk with you. With warmer weather comes the buzzing of bees, and that means there's always a chance of someone getting stung. Do you know what to do if somebody gets stung by a bee? According to the American Academy of Dermatology website, the first thing to do is to get the stinger out as quickly

Starting point is 00:44:02 as possible, because the longer the stinger stays in the skin, the more venom it releases, which adds to the person's pain and swelling. To remove the stinger, you should remove it by scraping over it with your fingernail or a piece of gauze or a credit card to kind of coax it out from the side. Never use tweezers to remove a stinger,

Starting point is 00:44:26 as squeezing it with tweezers can cause more venom to release into your skin. Also, if you do get stung, try to stay calm. Most bees will only sting once, but wasps and hornets can sting again. If you are stung, you should calmly walk away from the area to avoid additional attacks. Wash the sting with soap and water and apply a cold pack to reduce swelling. However, if the swelling moves to other parts of your body, such as your face or your neck, you should go to the emergency room immediately because you may be having an allergic reaction. Other signs of an allergic reaction include difficulty breathing, nausea, hives, or dizziness. And consider taking over-the-counter pain medication. Bee wasp and hornet stings can be really painful. Painkillers

Starting point is 00:45:19 like acetaminophen or ibuprofen can help relieve the pain. And although most people do not experience severe reactions to bee stings, it's a good idea to keep your eye on anyone who has been stung in case they develop more symptoms. And that is something you should know. As I hope you can tell by listening, we work pretty hard here to bring you interesting guests and interesting information, and if you appreciate that, you can do us a favor by telling someone you know about this podcast and asking them to listen. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should

Starting point is 00:45:57 Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity.

Starting point is 00:46:27 The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Contained herein are the heresies of Redolph Buntwine,

Starting point is 00:46:59 erstwhile monk turned traveling medical investigator. Join me as I study the secrets of the divine plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth that ours is not a loving God and we are not its favored children. The Heresies of Rudolf Bantwine, wherever podcasts are available.

Something You Should Know - New Science of Character and Personality & Why Everyone Seems to Be Arguing

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