Something You Should Know - Our 300th Episode! - How to Stop Sabotaging Yourself & A Fascinating Explanation of the Universe

Episode Date: August 1, 2019

Kim Kardashian and her sisters speak with something called “vocal fry.” In fact a lot of women do and it is a real problem. This episode begins with an explanation of what vocal fry is and why it is harmful to a person’s vocal health and professional career. http://healthland.time.com/2011/12/15/get-your-creak-on-is-vocal-fry-a-female-fad/ Have you ever sabotaged yourself? You go for a goal and somehow screw it up and it was no one else's fault but yours. The really good news is – everyone has done it. It is very human. And there is something you can do to stop it. Judy Ho a triple board-certified and licensed clinical and forensic psychologist and author of the book Stop Self Sabotage (https://amzn.to/2yltujB) joins me to explore this fascinating topic and reveals what you can do to stop it.  Ever go to the beach but chicken out when it comes to going in the water? Whether it is an ocean, river or lake, you need to take a dip this summer and I will explain the excellent reasons why it is well worth it. https://www.livestrong.com/article/400377-what-are-the-health-benefits-of-swimming-in-sea-water/ When you look at the universe, do you see chaos or order? While it may look chaotic, the great minds of science have discovered a distinct order to the universe. Why is this important? Graham Farmelo, senior research fellow at the Science Museum in London, adjunct professor of physics at Northeastern University and author of the book The Universe Speaks in Numbers: How Modern Math Reveals Nature's Deepest Secrets (https://amzn.to/2MtOJbg) is here to explain. He will fascinate you with his explanation about how the universe is quite mathematical – and not chaotic at all! This Week’s Sponsors -Dashlane. For a 30 day free trial plus 10% off Dashlane Premium go to www.Dashlane.com/SYSK Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As a listener to Something You Should Know, I can only assume that you are someone who likes to learn about new and interesting things and bring more knowledge to work for you in your everyday life. I mean, that's kind of what Something You Should Know was all about. And so I want to invite you to listen to another podcast called TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks. Well, you see, TED Talks Daily is a podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday in less than 15 minutes. Join host Elise Hu.

She goes beyond the headlines so you can hear about the big ideas shaping our future. Learn about things like sustainable fashion, embracing your entrepreneurial spirit, the future of robotics, and so much more. Like I said, if you like this podcast, Something You Should Know, I'm pretty sure you're going to like TED Talks Daily. And you get TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts. Today, on the 300th episode of Something You Should Know, I know it's a big deal. A lot of young women are doing something weird with their voice and it's no good for anyone. Then the universal problem of derailing our own best effort. It's called

self-sabotage. Well, self-sabotage is what we get in our own way despite our best intentions. So perhaps we've made a goal for ourselves. We say that it's really important to us, and yet we end up hindering our own progress. And sometimes it makes people really confused. Plus, why you need to go take a dip in the ocean as soon as possible, and a fascinating look at how the universe really works.

The great miracle, as Einstein put it, is that the universe is ordered. It's not just a heap of chaos. Underneath all the tumult of the planet Earth are simple laws, a relatively small number of them. All this today on the 300th episode of Something You Should Know. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like Something You Should Know, you're gonna

like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years.

She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed, critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast.

The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, and welcome to a momentous event, episode 300 of Something You Should Know. We started this podcast about three years ago, and my partner Ken Williams

and I really tried to create a podcast that we really thought people could sink their teeth into and enjoy and tell their friends and be different than so many of the other podcasts. We started with high hopes, but you never know, and it has exceeded our expectations. And it has done that precisely because of you and other people like you who listen, share it with their friends, and it has been a great ride and I hope will continue for a long, long time. Thank you.

We start today with something called vocal fry. More and more adolescent girls and young women speak with this thing called vocal fry. It's been a gradual trend, and a lot of girls don't realize that this speech pattern can permanently damage their vocal cords. Vocal fry is best described as the voice descending into the lower register as the speaker completes the sentence. Listen to Kim Kardashian. She does it all the time. In fact, I think all the Kardashians have vocal fry.

Some experts consider vocal fry vocal abuse and even a self-inflicted disorder. Vocal fry is somewhat of an epidemic. It starts typically in middle and high school with about two-thirds of college-age women speaking it. Once in the workforce, women may want to consider dropping their vocal fry. Duke University did a study and found that hiring managers were less likely to hire applicants speaking fry, as they were perceived as less trustworthy and competent, and in some cases, just downright annoying. Vocal fry is a habit that can fry your vocal cords. It causes muscle strains, swelling, and potentially even lesions and other damage. And that is something you should know.

Has this ever happened to you? You have a big project and there's a deadline. And instead of working on the project as the deadline approaches, you waste a bunch of time on social media or watching television, so you don't have enough time to really do the project well. Or, for example, you're in a great relationship, but maybe you get a little flirtatious with someone at the office, and the partner finds out, and now there is a big problem.

It's called self-sabotage, and we all do it to some degree. We torpedo our own best efforts for seemingly no apparent reason, and the consequences can range from minor to devastating. Here to talk about why we do it and how to knock it off is Dr. Judy Ho. Judy is a triple board certified and licensed clinical and forensic psychologist and she's author of the book Stop Self-Sabotage. Hi Judy, welcome to Something You Should Know. Hi Mike, so good to be here. Thank you for having me on. You bet. So define self-sab Thank you for having me on. You bet.

So define self-sabotage for me. What is it you're talking about? Well, self-sabotage simply defined is when we get in our own way despite our best intentions. So perhaps we've made a goal for ourselves. We say that it's really important to us, and yet we end up hindering our own progress. And sometimes it's inexplicableable and it makes people really confused. Yeah. And everybody's done it, right? Everybody's done it.

And truly, I think it's a universal phenomenon that is rooted in biology and evolution. And so I think all of us, even the best of us, are prone to this from time to time. So what is the root of that? What is the biological root of that? So the biological root of self-sabotage really has to do with the two primary drives of all human beings. And the two primary drives are, in order to survive as a species and as individuals, we need to avoid threat, and at the same time we need to attain reward so that we can keep moving forward. And the self-sabotage switch gets turned on when over a course of different experiences or personality

traits or ways that we go about life, we end up prioritizing avoiding threat more so than attaining reward. And in our current day, the threat is not so much a saber-toothed tiger, but the threat is being rejected for a date, being turned down for a job, embarrassing yourself in public when you're speaking. And so even emotional threats feel the same way to our bodies as physical threats. When I think of self-sabotage, I think of a student, for example, who has a really important test to take and who doesn't study and waits till the last minute and doesn't study enough and then gets a lousy grade on the test and wonder, well, why would you do that? Absolutely. Procrastination is one of the most vivid examples, I think, of self-sabotage. And I think people tell themselves different

things. They might say, well, I need all of that energy and stress so that in the end I can perform the best to my ability. And obviously people don't perform to the best of their ability when they're crunched for time like that, especially as projects and exams get more complicated. Do you think that when people are doing this, when they're sabotaging their own best efforts, they know it or they only see it later? Well, I think it's a mixture. So some people know it in the moment and they're doing it anyway, so they're feeling really bad about themselves as they're doing it. And other people don't see it until later. And in fact, is that usually they don't find the way out. So they'll say it, they'll even say, I sabotage myself, they'll use that language, but then there's no practical tips to follow up. How

do you change this behavior? And I think that's why I became so passionate about this topic. And in my research and in the work that I've done with my patients, I've just noticed that people do this all the time and then they kind of just brush it off and then they do it again. So it becomes this pattern that overall will erode on their self-esteem and their ability to believe in themselves to do things. So how do you make sure you don't do it again? Well, the first step is to understand where it comes from. And so I came up with an acronym called LIFE to help people remember the common factors a bit easier. So I believe that there's four common reasons why people self-sabotage. And some people may have just one of these reasons. Some people may have all four, but in general, everybody has at least one. And the first one is low or shaky self-esteem.

So if you've had difficulties believing in yourself, and it doesn't have to be pervasive. You know, people have different realms of self-esteem. So maybe you have really good self-esteem when it comes to your athletic abilities, but not so much when it comes to your career. And so whatever area of life that you're having difficulties with your self-esteem in, that's where you're apt to self-sabotage the most.

So that's the first factor. I stands for internalized belief. So that's the first factor. I stands for internalized belief. So this is the second factor. And this is a story that we've been told from childhood, watching our parents, perhaps if our parents were nervous Nellies, you start to adopt that idea for yourself as an adult. Always look before you leap. Don't try anything that you haven't tried before.

And over time, this also erodes on our ability to make positive change. F is for fear of the unknown. So this is a very common thing to human beings. We don't like the unknown. Clearly, we want to be able to predict how our life is going to go and what's going to happen to us day to day. But if that fear of the unknown is too pervasive, then it becomes unhealthy because then you'll never step outside your comfort zone. And the last one is E. E is for excessive need for control. So excessive need for control comes into play for a lot of people who would define themselves as perfectionists, totally overachievers, type A people. They don't want to do anything that isn't within their control. And oftentimes, if you have a big goal,

you're not going to be the only person that's involved in achieving that goal. And so just even that sense of not being able to have a sure footing will stop people who generally are great at going after things. I've always thought that people self-sabotage themselves because perhaps they really don't want what it is they're aiming for. So they screw it up and go, well, see, I can't. That's, yeah, sorry. I think that's a great point.

And that's very, very common too. And I think a big part of this is that sometimes we make these goals and they're not even our goals. They're goals of our friends. They're goals of our family members. They're things that other people put on bucket lists so that you think you should too. And I think this is part of, you know, all of these motivation hacks, a lot of self-improvement projects and books.

We talk all the time about achieving goals and I understand that, but at the same time, if these goals are not rooted in your values, the things that you find that your life should stand for, what you want to be remembered for, if they're not rooted in values first, I believe people do self-sabotage because like you said, maybe it's not even what they want. And when they look down the line, they're like, well, if I achieve this goal, I'm going to be living a life that's not even authentic to me, or maybe a life I don't really want to live. And so then they don't actually pursue those things in a very steadfast way. Could it just be fear?

Like if I do really well on this job interview and I get the job, my life will change and maybe I don't really want it to change. Absolutely. This idea of fear of change is huge for human beings overall and maybe for certain individuals. And I think sometimes people look too many steps ahead. You know, they think, okay, once I achieve this goal, then I have to do this next thing, then the next thing,

then the next thing, then it'll never end. I hear this oftentimes with career pursuits. I hear this often also with actually health habits. Like, for example, when somebody is trying to lose weight, then they think, well, once I achieve that weight, then I have to keep it up. And for my entire life, I'm going to have to eat healthy and goodbye to these foods that I can never eat again, which, by the way, is the wrong mentality. You

should have some kind of moderation, but not just cut things out completely. But I think when people look down the line too much and they see the maintenance that's involved, maybe they don't want to do it. And that particular fear of change can really come into play when you think too far down and think about all the negative consequences and outcomes that could be associated with reaching your goal. Well, it's interesting you said that it tends to happen with things where you perhaps have not as much confidence in, right? Right, absolutely.

And that's really common for people to second guess themselves. I think right now a lot of people are talking about this idea of imposter syndrome, right? And I think it relates a little bit to that. You know, even if you've done a lot of things, you've tried your best, you've actually worked for it, sometimes you still don't feel fully confident. Yeah, I think that's a big part of it. I mean, just in my own life and knowing people that I know that, yeah, there's that sense of, I really don't deserve this. I don't qualify for this. I'll never do well at it, so why bother? Absolutely. And I think when I talk to people who feel this way, it's interesting because they don't

actually tell everybody that that's how they're feeling, right? They kind of project this person that has confidence, that it's full of life and can do anything that they want. And then their inner thoughts are so negative. And I talk about this a lot with the people I've worked with, which is, it's so crazy how sometimes the negative thoughts that we tell ourselves, we would never say them out loud to another human being, you know, not even a therapist, it's because they're so mean. And yet they're the undercurrents of our everyday. If these negative thoughts are pervasive and they're repeated, your brain starts to ignore it because it thinks, oh, this is just old information. I know this already. But just because your brain

ignores it consciously doesn't mean that it's not wreaking havoc in other ways. And I think that's what leads to people self-sabotaging sometimes without knowing it. I'm speaking with Dr. Judy Ho. She is a triple board certified and licensed clinical and forensic psychologist and author of the book, Stop Self-Sabotage. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a co-founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lightning,

a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. During her journey, Isla meets new friends, including King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, and learns valuable life lessons with every quest, sword fight, and dragon ride. Positive and uplifting stories remind us all about the importance of kindness, friendship, honesty, and positivity. Join me and an all-star cast of actors, including Liam Neeson, Emily Blunt, Kristen Bell, Chris Hemsworth, among many others,

in welcoming the Search for the Silver Lining podcast to the Go Kid Go network by listening today. Look for the Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman,

the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. So Judy, do you think there's a difference between, and I guess this would apply to something like weight loss, there's a difference between sabotaging yourself and just,

you know, giving in to momentary temptation? It's not like you're trying to derail your whole diet, but you know, that donut looks, it just looks so good that you give into temptation, but there's no deep-seated sabotage going on. Well, I think it can be a combination of different things. And when there is what we call a weak moment, it just means that you were possibly very mindless about it. So it means that perhaps

you kind of had this flash of acknowledgement that this might not be a good thing to do, and you just did it anyway. And instead of sort of being mindful of that moment and saying, well, I have a craving for this snack, for example, but it'll pass. It'll pass if I just wait a few minutes. Let me just do something else to distract myself and come back. And research shows that 15 to 20 minutes is often enough for you to actually gauge, are you actually truly hungry? Or do you actually really want this? Or are you just doing it because of emotional eating or boredom? And so after that 15 to 20 minutes, people tend to make better decisions. But because they're not mindful in the moment, then they have through this lapse in

judgment. But I absolutely think that willpower is a big deal. And so research also shows, for example, that people tend to snack and eat unhealthily towards the end of the night, maybe after they've been drinking a little bit. And it all makes sense because willpower is not a infinite resource. It's a finite resource, just like when you exercise your body, eventually you're going to have to rest your body, you're going to have to take a break. Well, willpower does erode over the course of the day, especially if you've had a lot of different decisions that you've had to make in the day, if you've had other emotional or academic or career stresses, so that by the end of the day, it's much harder to say no. So knowing that you are predisposed to doing this, what's the step one, two, and three to

when you see yourself starting to sabotage your efforts, what do you do? Well, the first step is to recognize which of those life factors apply to you, because it's really important to know those undercurrents of what is really leading me to do this time and time again. And after that, I think it's time, you know, the next step is really to delve into your thought patterns. You know what, we have these automatic thoughts that kind of run on autopilot. And a lot of times they're very negative. And they're things that reinforce one or more of those life factors. So we need to sort of take those thoughts out into the light, be able to examine them and understand whether or not they actually even apply in the situation. Sometimes we hold on to negative thoughts from an earlier experience we've had in life and it doesn't even apply now. And it's really about how is this thought really operating and do we need to somewhat either change the thought, if you can, if you can think about this thought as this is not a productive thought, how do I have a more productive one? Or it's really about maybe letting that thought just be a thought. And I think this is

sort of a newer school of psychology that has gotten more attention lately, which is based on acceptance and commitment therapy. And this school of thought is all about, you know, sometimes we can't change our negative thoughts in the moment, but we can change our relationship to them. And just because we have a negative thought does not mean we have to act on it. It does not mean it's true. And it does not mean that it has to have any kind of formidable effect on our emotions and our behaviors. And if you can let go of that and just think of your thoughts as mental events, because that's all they are, they're not who you are, they're not part of your personality, then we can deal with them easier. We can kind of ignore them and let them run in the background without letting it actually

affect our decisions that end up leading to self-sabotage. That seems hard to do. That seems really hard to do, to have that view, have that belief that those negative thoughts really are benign. Yes, and I think it's because, I mean, as human beings, language is just so important to us. It's important to our development. It's important to our communication and how we relate to one another. And social relations are just paramount for human beings.

Recent research has shown that if we don't have good social relationships, we can actually die earlier. We can actually have heart disease. And so there's these physical manifestations of not being able to communicate well. But our reliance on language really is also at some points very artificial. And so I think some of the more practical ways to start making this shift, because as you said, it is very hard, is to very simply one technique that I use a lot is to talk about this as labeling a thought.

So if you have a negative thought like, I'll never be able to lose weight, adding just a small little phrase in front of it, I'm having the thought that I'm never going to be able to lose weight. And just notice how the power gets taken out a little bit of that original thought because you're labeling it as a thought, and you're creating even a physical distance between you and that original thought that can wreak havoc on your healthy habits. I like that.

That's a great idea, because as you say, it kind of pulls the power away from the thought. It makes it just a thought, which is just a thought. Right, absolutely. And sometimes I'll even have my clients, you know, write it on a piece of paper. And so they'll write their negative thought first, and then I'll ask them to write to the left of that thought, I'm having the thought that and then I have them stand up and I say, look at the paper and look at you and you're already farther from the thought than you when

you originally started, because now you have this bridge here, this little phrase. And so I try to make that physical connection, because sometimes we think of thoughts, you know, again, as so intangible, they're in our heads, they can go on and on forever. And when you put it on the page, it feels like something that you can manipulate. And I try to remind people that anything that's physical in space has finite borders, right? Even the Grand Canyon starts and ends somewhere. And so do your thoughts. They don't have to go on forever and ever and wreak havoc to your emotional and behavioral life. In your work with people, where do you find self-sabotage showing up most in life? What are the situations? That's such a good question. So I find for a lot of successful people, people who have their

careers together, people who have maybe even their healthy habits together, their exercise together, that they tend to self-sabotage the most in intimate, romantic relationships. And I think it's because that's where things are the least controllable and they're the most vulnerable. So if anybody's had any kind of emotional trauma of any sort or has been rejected in a romantic relationship somewhere in life, that could be an easy slip for them. You know, it's easy just to tell themselves, these are not the things I want. So they just never get into a romantic relationship somewhere in life, that could be an easy slip for them. You know, it's easy just to tell themselves, these are not the things I want. So they just never get into a serious relationship. Or they tell themselves, I do want a serious relationship. How come I can't get one? Yet they keep choosing these partners that either don't challenge them or bore them, or partners that, you know, unfortunately, sometimes might get into abusive types of

behaviors, including emotional and physical abuse. So I think that's one very common area. But I think a couple of other ones are procrastination, diet and exercise, and certainly pushing forward in their career. I find a lot of really well-meaning people who settle into a job and never try to aim any higher. And they just watch other people get promoted over them and watch other people have better jobs. And they tell themselves the narrative that, well, a job's a job, right? So you don't really have to like what you do. And I try to say, you know, a job is a job. And sometimes you're going to have days where you don't love what you do, but you should absolutely at least 70 to 80%

of the time love what you do because you spend so much time in your life doing it. What about accountability? It would seem to me that if somebody else is kind of keeping their eye on you, that you are less likely to fall victim to this. Yes, absolutely. And I think this is why I want to take self-sabotage out of the shadows. I think that people are embarrassed by it and they hide from it. And maybe there's a certain level of stigma there, especially if somebody feels like they're a little bit living this imposter syndrome, they don't want to talk about it. But if you keep it all to yourself, it's much easier to keep doing those negative

behaviors and sink into those patterns and keep feeling ashamed. So if you can tell at least one other person, have an accountability buddy, be able to discuss this openly and again, recognize it's universal. So there's nothing wrong with you if you're prone to falling into it from time to time. Hopefully that will help because the more we can talk about it openly and the more we can bring it to the surface, the more it's going to feel like a huge sense of cognitive dissonance when you do something against your best interest, right? So human beings are very much driven by cognitive dissonance. We don't want it. You know, that's a very uncomfortable place for us if we feel like

our thoughts don't align or our thoughts and behaviors don't align. So I give this example of one of my friends who used to be a chain smoker, but then he started working in tobacco research and he quit eventually because it was just too much for him to hold that dissonance of I'm doing tobacco research and yet I smoke a pack a day. And so it's that idea that when you can talk to people about it, when you're living this outward life of going towards your goals and then you trip up, then that's much harder for your mind to handle. Your mind doesn't want it. So it's easier then to keep your mind and your behaviors on track with one another.

It is interesting to me anyway, how we all, and you've confirmed that we all fall victim to this at some point in life. It serves us poorly, and yet it is so common. It's just everybody does it. Everybody does it. And I think, you know, obviously we don't have to over-pathologize the problem, and that's a big part of what I've been trying to do when I talk to people about it is, hey, the best of us do it. And by the way, you're fighting biology and evolution here, so you're not going to win that battle.

We're all going to do it sometime. But if it becomes a pattern that bothers you and you know it's getting in your way consistently, then it's really time to do something about it. And the good news is there are things we can do about it. So aside from changing your thoughts, understanding the life factors, it's also about replacing your unhealthy behaviors with healthy behaviors. So this idea of replacement behaviors comes from behavioral management theory and psychology. And it's all about substituting

what we call a competing behavior in place of a bad habit. So when we talk about unhealthy snacking, that's a very common example of that. What is something that you can do when you get the urge to snack and you know you're not hungry, you know that you're nourished, and you know that you shouldn't do it? What is something that will get in the way of you actually having that snack? And so sometimes people will say things like, well, I'll watch TV. I'm like, nope, that's not a competing behavior because that's the time when most people snack.

So what you have to do is do something that can actually get in the way of you picking up a snack. So whether that's taking do is do something that can actually get in the way of you picking up a snack. So whether that's taking a quick walk around the block, going on a really quick walk with your dog, or it's cleaning up a small area of your room, you know, it's something that actually gets in the way of you also being able to eat at the same time. Well, it's good to know that, you know, it's not just me. It's not just you. It's everybody. Everybody engages in self-sabotage to some degree or another.

And it's good to know, too, that there are things you can do to fight it if that becomes a problem. Dr. Judy Ho has been my guest. She's a triple board certified and licensed clinical and forensic psychologist. And the name of her book is Stop Self-Sabotage. You'll find a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. Thank you, Judy. Absolutely. Thank you again for having me on, Mike.

Really great. Hey, everyone. Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Bl't blame me we tackle our listeners dilemmas with hilariously honest advice then we have but am i wrong which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice plus we share our hot takes on current events then tune in

to see you next tuesday for our lister poll results from but am i wrong and finally wrap up your week with fisting friday where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show,

we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. I imagine you have, as I have done, looked up into the night sky and wondered, what's it all about? The stars, the universe, it all looks so chaotic.

But is it? Is it chaotic or is there some order, some rhyme and reason to all in the universe that we see? And if there is order to it all, what does that mean? Here to explain, perhaps as good as anyone, is Graham Farmello. Graham is a senior research fellow at the Science Museum in London and adjunct professor of physics at Northeastern University in Boston. And he is author of a book called The Universe Speaks in Numbers, How Modern Math Reveals Nature's Deepest Secrets. Hi, Graham. Thanks for coming on. And why don't you start by explaining what you mean by the universe speaks in numbers. What does that mean? Well, nature is speaking to us in stereo. Now, what I mean by that is that everybody knows pretty much that we learn about nature from the

results of experiments, making observations. That's the way we learn about how nature works. But we also learn about nature's order, the fundamental order at the heart of nature from mathematics. I mean, Einstein was the person who saw this extremely clearly. He pointed out three years before he passed away, this was 1952, that the great miracle, as he called it, or the eternal mystery, is that there is a deep underlying order at the heart of nature. Now, it's that order that enables us to do science. It's because the universe is ordered that we can study it. And we have to hand a system that enables us to understand that order, and that system is mathematics. So what is the nature of that order that you just spoke of?

What does it mean that the universe has an order? science when he set out the first system of studying nature in a mathematical way and at the heart of that was the formula that gives the gravitational force between two masses that's called the newton's inverse square law that's a complicated sounding thing but it's actually very simple it says if you have two masses then there is a simple mathematical formula you can write on the palm of your hand that tells you what the force is the gravity force between those uh those masses and that formula describes everything from an apple falling from a tree in his garden or a pencil falling from your hand to the floor right through to the moon going around the earth, the planets going around the sun, and the whole shape of the cosmos. That was one of the greatest unifying insights in

the history of science. And it shows that there is an underlying order that you can summarize in terms of a simple mathematical formula. And so what is that formula? Oh, it's the gravitational force, you multiply the two masses, you divide it by the square of the distance. That's it. That's the formula that is in every basic science textbook, right? And that gives a mathematical expression to the order that we see around us

in terms of the gravitational force. And is there any sense as to what that formula is explaining, why that formula works so well, and why everything has this relationship to everything else? The way Newton looked at it, the towering mind at the beginning, his job was not to explain where the origin of these things, but to describe, as he would put it, God's creation. That's what he saw. He saw himself as a natural philosopher whose job was to understand God's creation of the universe and by that formula that i just described

there that enabled him to describe everything from motion on the planet earth through to the motion of satellites in outer space the motion of the moon the tides and and what have you he couldn't explain why there is that attraction but he nonetheless wrote down a formula that linked together all those observations. And that's the expression of basic order at the heart of the universe. If this has been around since Newton, then isn't this all pretty much in stone and we all agree and now we can get on with our lives or not? Oh, no, because gravity is only one of several forces that are at the heart of nature. I mean, one that Newton knew about, but he did not know the mathematical description of it is electricity and magnetism. Now, that is responsible ultimately for the senses, the human senses.

And we pick it up when we get our clothes out of the dry cleaner, we get the electric shock, we sense the electrical force in action there. The electrical force holds together the particles inside atoms. But we didn't know what formulae describe those forces, electrical and magnetic forces. The correct theory, mathematical theory of that was discovered in the 1860s by the great Scottish thinker James Clark Maxwell. And that, again, was one of the really great human achievements of the 19th century. The American theoretician said it was the great achievement of the 19th century because so much of our modern world is based on electricity and magnetism from our cell phones and our lighting systems and our communication systems are based on electricity and magnetism from our cell phones and our lighting systems and our communication systems are based on electricity and magnetism, basically.

And it was Maxwell who discovered a few equations that describe all the phenomena of electricity and magnetism. Again, what that does is it gives a mathematical expression to the basic order at the heart of the universe. And so why is this important? Why, this seems like textbook stuff that's been in the textbooks for a long time, so why are we talking about it today, and why should I care? Let's be clear, this is important because it's the miracle that makes our comprehension of the universe possible. That's exactly what Einstein said. His job, the supreme

task of the physicist, as Einstein put it, is to understand, find the most basic laws from which we can deduce why the universe is the way it is. That's what the job of the physicist is, fundamentally. It's to find those laws and to give expression to that order and to make predictions that enable technology and make our understanding of the universe around us clear. So you talked in the beginning of this conversation about people who experiment to try to figure out why the world works the way it works. What are these experimenters experimenting? What is it they do? What experimenters do is to study phenomena in the universe, right?

They do experiments on the world around us. Now, they measure things like mass, they measure speed, they measure forces and what have you. Now, that on its own, and their identification of phenomena in nature, you know, observations of new particles and new phenomena that have never been seen by human beings before, right? That's one thing. But as Einstein stressed so often, what we really need is to understand the pattern between those observations. Why are they all part of one seamless whole? And that's what the fundamental aim of a physicist is,

to give a unified description of the whole of nature at a fundamental level. It would be having a simple set of formulae on which everything around us is based. And what we're really aiming for is a mathematical set of laws that are in perfect agreement with experiment. That's what we're after. And are we anywhere close? Well, we've done fantastically. I mean, if Newton could come back today and see where we were,

I'm pretty confident he'd be utterly astonished. For a start, he'd see that we have these laws pretty confident he'd be utterly astonished for a start he'd see that we have these laws of electricity and magnetism but also atoms which were a matter of controversy at that time we not only know they exist we know the detailed mathematical laws that govern uh the uh the inner structure of atoms even better than that we have a system now uh in uh at the best category we've got is called string theory whereby whereby we can understand all those forces under one framework. Now, that is a tremendously exciting intellectual achievement. It's certainly not concluded.

There's a lot of work to do to understand that theory and to check it thoroughly against experiment. But that would be seen by someone like Newton if he would just sort of walk in and look at the state of science now. He would be astonished at what has been achieved by scientists in 300-odd years since he published his great work. So one thing I guess I don't really understand is, how could Newton, way back when he was alive, come up with this formula? You can't just make up a formula. Yes, you can. You can. That's exactly the magic of the great creative scientists, in particular the great creative physicists.

Put simply, they have to guess the right formula that fits nature. That's the point, right? And he, and actually, he wasn't the only person to come up with that formula. He applied it brilliantly to explain the motion of the planets around the sun, the tides, the good, this, knows what else. So he used that formula brilliantly. But what people after that did was they actually guessed the right formula. And it's a very, very difficult thing to do. That's why we celebrate uh and rightly so in my view people who have the brilliance to actually come up with a brand new law of nature and the most famous one in the past century was uh was albert einstein and in 1915 he came up with a new law of gravity the einstein's law of gravity law of gravity, which we now believe is the best account of the gravitational force

and indeed cosmology, the way in which the universe develops and the way it is now. He came up with that in his head. It took him about eight years to do, eight years of incredibly hard work, working with mathematics and experimental results to guess the right mathematical formula, which again, I might say, you can write on the palm of your hand. Quite an incredible achievement. Those equations that explain the order of the universe that you've described, though, they explain some of the order, but there's a lot about the order of the universe we you've described, though. They explain some of the order, but there's a lot

about the order of the universe we don't know, right? Oh, there's tons we don't know. The amazing thing about science is the more we understand, the more we know, the more we realize we don't know. As I said, we have a candidate theory now of all the interactions that can be put under one roof, so to speak, under the umbrella of one framework, which is called string theory. But that is certainly not a final theory. We're still working with it, trying to understand it. But the great prize is to have a unified understanding of all those fundamental forces. And a thousand or so of the smartest people alive are working on that subject now.

And it's an extremely challenging thing to do. And the reason is that the most natural place to test that theory is at extremely high energies, right at the beginning of the universe. And they're very, very difficult to access. What are some of the things or one of the things that's stumping science? What is the one or two things that like, I wish we could figure this out, but nobody can? Yeah, that's a great question. A classic one, an absolutely classic one, concerns black holes. Now, these are objects, if you can call it that, cosmic objects, which are so dense with matter that light and matter can't escape from it. At least that was the initial conception.

Now, these things are exotic. They made the news this year because there was the first image of a black hole published. It made the front pages of all the newspapers and websites and what have you, right? Now, many people have worked on that subject. The first thing to say is that the existence of those objects, right, emerges from Einstein's theory of gravity. Now, that, in a sense, is quite remarkable. Out of that mathematical theory comes a prediction that those objects exist,

and sure enough, we see them in outer space. That, I submit to you, is a miracle, or if not a miracle, absolutely amazing. Now, we still don't understand exactly what happens when matter is swallowed up by a black hole. And the reason is that physicists find it extremely difficult to combine our studies of gravity, which are, as I said, best symbolized by Einstein's theory, and the laws are called quantum mechanics which describe matter at the smallest level this is atom by atom when you know when you're talking about the tiniest particles that we're all made up of now black holes is the best plate the cleanest place to test the conflict between quantum mechanics and uh and einstein's theory of gravity is, as one physicist along my corridor here, Douglas Stanford, put it brilliantly, it's the ground zero of the war

between gravity and quantum mechanics. In other words, those two areas are very, very difficult to reconcile, and it's in black holes that we think we will understand how to do it. But it's not understood yet. And people right now at the String Theory Conference in Brussels are still working on this problem. And it has taken years of work to make progress on.

But it's still not understood. I remember when that photograph of the black hole showed up. And I remember in my high school physics, hearing that light can't escape a black hole, so how could we possibly see it? Yeah, well, that's a very good question. And indeed, that is what people thought for many years. But you can look at the environment around a black hole, right? And you can see evidence for matter in its locality so to speak and that's what those experimenters quite brilliantly did this year and it was the first time and i want to say something here that shows that how remarkable our human understanding is on this physicists have been

exploring black holes now for uh for many many years The modern understanding began in 1939. The subject really took off in the 60s and 70s with Stephen Hawking, one of the pioneers. Now, those black holes were being studied inside theoreticians' heads even before astronomers had seen them. As you said, we only saw our first clean image for it earlier this year.

And yet physicists are able to use mathematical equations to study what is going on in the environment of a black hole. So it demonstrates the enormous power of mathematics and our basic theories of nature. I understand that all of these theories and formulas help to explain the universe, but do we really know what the universe is? I mean, it seems like so much of it we don't know, so how can you possibly explain what you don't know? What we know about it enters through our senses

and is the result of observations that we make on it. The basic job of the physicists, physicists today are not particularly philosophical people. What they want to do is to say that our job is to explain all the data that are taken on experiments on the universe. Every observation that an astronomer or a physicist makes, it is the physicist's job to explain those observations in terms of mathematical formulae. And, of course, there's tens of thousands, millions of people doing these observations on the outer galaxies and constellations and here on planet Earth in every laboratory, coming up with millions of papers that tell us in detail about what is going on in the universe with very increasingly accurate experiments and it's the job of the

theoretician to use mathematical laws to explain those things to understand them goes back to that point about the order that at the the great miracle that as einstein put it is that the universe is ordered it's not just a heap of chaos you, underneath all the tumult of the planet Earth and all the violence of quasar explosions or what have you, are simple laws, a relatively small number of them. And it seems amazing to me

that through the assemblies of atoms that human beings are, that we can divine and understand that order in the simple language of mathematics. Well, I find this so interesting, and I wish I had more of a science and math brain than I do. Those were not my best subjects in school. But this is really, really interesting and really helps explain the universe. Graham Farmello has been my guest.

He's a senior research fellow at the Science Museum in London, an adjunct professor of physics at Northeastern University in Boston. His book is called The Universe Speaks in Numbers, How Modern Math Reveals Nature's Deepest Secrets. And you will find a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks so much, Graham. Appreciate your time. Oh, I appreciate yours too. Thank you so much. If you would like to have better skin, improve your sex drive, and live longer, head to the ocean. Swimming in seawater can do all of that

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