Something You Should Know - Proven Ways to Be More Persuasive & The Surprising Truth About Recycling

Episode Date: April 26, 2021

If you saw someone walking down the street and they were not swinging their arms, you would think it looks a little weird. Yet, humans don’t have to swing their arms to walk - we can walk fine with it. This episode begins with an explanation as to why most of us swing our arms when we walk and the benefits of doing so. https://www.wonderopolis.org/wonder/why-do-we-swing-our-arms-when-we-walk No one knows more about how influence and persuasion work than Robert Cialdini. For decades he has studied what does and doesn’t work when you are trying to get people to do what you want. In the 80s he wrote a landmark book on the topic which has just been updated called Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion (https://amzn.to/3dHyjJx). Listen as Robert discusses how little things can have a huge impact on getting people to do what you want. You probably recycle - right? But are you doing it correctly? A lot of things you may think are recyclable are not. And some things that you would assume are recyclable actually gum up the works. You might also wonder just how much of what we put in the recycle bin actually gets made into something else. Listen and be surprised as I am joined by Jennie Romer. She is an attorney and leading expert on single-use plastics, and she is author of the book CAN I RECYCLE THIS? A Guide to Better Recycling and How to Reduce Single-Use Plastics (https://amzn.to/32BfVeS). Wouldn’t it be cool to find something tucked away in your attic or basement that is actually worth money? Listen as I describe some items that just might be in your possession that you could turn into cash. Source: Brian Kathenes author of Betcha Didn’t Know That! (https://amzn.to/3xaJn9A) PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! We really enjoy The Jordan Harbinger Show and we think you will as well! There’s just SO much here. Check out https://jordanharbinger.com/start for some episode recommendations, OR search for The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.  Over the last 6 years, donations made at Walgreens in support of Red Nose Day have helped positively impact over 25 million kids. You can join in helping to change the lives of kids facing poverty. To help Walgreens support even more kids, donate today at checkout or at https://Walgreens.com/RedNoseDay. https://www.geico.com Bundle your policies and save! It's Geico easy! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Bumble knows it's hard to start conversations. Hey. No, too basic. Hi there. Still no. What about hello, handsome? Who knew you could give yourself the ick? That's why Bumble is changing how you start conversations.

You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, you don't have to swing your arms when you walk. So why do you? Then, how to be more persuasive and influential. One way is with compliments.

There are two ways to actually increase the benefits of a genuine compliment. One is to give it behind people's backs. Give it to somebody else who tells you. Then, what's in your basement or attic that could be worth money? And what you probably don't know about recycling, including what's not recyclable. So a plastic carryout bag, those shouldn't be in your curbside bins. They tend to clog the recycling machinery. And then a lot of the smaller things, like bottle caps that aren't attached to the bottles or forks, they're really not going to make it through.

All this today on Something You Should Know. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like Something You Should Know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman

who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker.

Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. you get your podcasts. Hello there. Welcome to Something You Should Know. I was just reading, you know how on podcasts, including this one, you're often asked to subscribe? Well, now the industry is moving away from that term, which I really think is a good idea because the word subscribe implies money.

When you subscribe to Netflix or you subscribe to a newspaper, you usually pay money. When you subscribe to a podcast, you don't. So now the new term that everyone's being encouraged to use is follow. So I hope you will follow this podcast on whatever platform you listen on. First up today, you know when you walk, you swing your arms. But think about it. It's not exactly necessary. For example, if you're carrying something in your arms, no swing. So why do we swing our arms when we walk? Physical anthropology professor Thomas Grainer has a theory.

He says it's a neurological leftover when we walked on all fours. He says that when quadrupeds walk, most of them do it with a contralateral gait, meaning right foot, left arm. It helps with balance at slower speeds. On the other hand, scientists in a University of Michigan study concluded that swinging our arms adds stability, and that by not swinging your arms, you would use 12% more energy to walk the same distance. So you could burn more calories by not swinging your arms when you walk. You would just look really weird. And that is something you should know.

Every day you're trying to influence people. And actually, every day you are influencing people, whether you're trying to or not. People are always reading into and interpreting what you say, not just on a conscious level, but unconsciously as well. And while all that's going on, other people are influencing you in the same way. Influence and persuasion are topics that have been well-researched and studied, and probably the foremost authority on the subject anywhere in the world is Robert Cialdini. He wrote a landmark book on this topic back in the 80s, and it has just been updated and re-released. It's called Influence, the Psychology of Persuasion. Hey, Bob, welcome back to Something You Should Know. Hello to you, Mike. Good to be with you.

So I think a good place to start is to very quickly run through the principles of influence. Yes. There are six universal principles, and I've now added a seventh. The first is reciprocity. People say yes to those who have given to them already, who have first provided a favor or a gift of some sort. So, for example, if people walked into a candy shop and received a small piece of chocolate as a greeting gift, they were 42% more likely to buy candy. Now, it wasn't that they were 42% more likely to buy chocolate because somehow they loved the chocolate they got. No, it was not what they had received. It was that they had received. So my recommendation is when you go into a situation where you want to be more

influential, your first question should not be, who can help me here? Your first question should be, whom can I help here? Whose circumstances can I elevate or outcomes can I enhance? And they will want to do the same for you. There's a rule that says it. It's in every human culture. So that's the first principle. The next one is liking. People want to do business with people they like. And there are two simple things you can do to make that happen. One is find genuine similarities that exist between the two of you and then raise them to the surface. The other is to give genuine compliments that are deserved. And in both cases, people are more likely to say yes to us. Next principle is the principle of social proof.

The one that says one way we reduce our uncertainty about what we should do in a particular situation is look at what the people around us, like us, are doing there. So, for example, in a Beijing restaurant, if managers put a little asterisk next to certain items on the menu, each one was increased in purchase by 13 to 20 percent. What did the asterisk stand for? It said, this is one of our most popular items. And each one became more popular for its popularity. So one thing we can do is give people honest evidence of other people moving in our direction, especially people like them. Yeah, that's really interesting. Talk about the principle of authority. Another way people can reduce the uncertainty they feel in a particular situation is look to see what the experts are saying. We would be fools of the influence process if we didn't include a testimonial

from an acknowledged expert, someone who is registered as being an authority on the topic, before we send our message. That testimonial is gold. Next principle is the principle of scarcity. People want more of those things they can have less of. Next principle is the principle of commitment and consistency. People want to be consistent with what they've already said or done. So in one study, a restaurant owner was able to significantly reduce the percentage of no-shows at his restaurant, people who booked a table and

then didn't show up for it, by changing what his receptionist said when she took a booking by just two words. Previously, she said, please call if you have to change or cancel your reservation. He asked her to add the words, will you please call if you have to change? And no-shows dropped from 30% to 10% immediately because people had just made an active commitment. And then the final principle is unity. The idea that if a communicator can convince us that he or she is one of us, not just like us, but of us, shares an important social identity with us. All influence barriers come down. We want to give to people who share that identity.

Let's take an example. A study done on a college campus. Researchers had a young woman asking students passing by to give a contribution to the United Way, and she more than doubled contributions. The sentence was I'm a student here too and now two and a half times as many people gave. So those are the principles of persuasion. What are some of the things that people think work to be persuasive that don't? One is determined by this question that I'm often asked. So which of these seven principles is the most powerful? Which is the one I should use that should be my favorite? And I answer that question by describing the outcome of a study that a colleague of mine did.

He said he spent two years trying to find the single most effective persuasive approach. And I saw him at a conference a while ago. He caught me by the elbow. He said, Bob, I found it. The single most effective persuasive approach is not to have a single persuasive approach. That's a fool's game to think that the same approach is going to work for every population, for every kind of situation, for every existing relationship you had or didn't have with somebody. No, that's not the way you do it. You change your approach based on the circumstances of the situation. You know what I wonder is, if I know these principles of influence, am I less likely to be influenced by these principles of influence?

You know, you shouldn't be, except when those principles are being used unethically, deceptively on you. I'll give you an example from my own experience. A while ago, I was in an electronics shop, and I was there for a different reason, but I saw a big-screen TV on sale, and I knew that it was a very highly rated one from Consumer Reports. So I was standing in front of it, and the salesperson came up to me and said, I see you're interested in this set at this price. It makes great sense to be interested in it, but I have to tell you, it's our last one. We don't have any more.

And then he said, and I just got a call from a woman who said she might come down this afternoon to buy it. Mike, I'm supposed to be the guru of influence. 20 minutes later, I'm wheeling out of the shop. No, you fell for that? In my cart, because I'm as human as anybody. Now, here's why I think you were understandably amazed. Because I know about scarcity, I should try to resist it. No, if it was truly the last one at that price, I needed to know that. That salesperson was my ally in the process, not my adversary. Let's say he didn't tell me it was the last one.

I went home to think about it, came back that evening, and he said, oh, sorry, it sold. That was our last one. We didn't have it, and we don't have any more. I would have been outraged at the guy. What? It was your last one, and you didn't tell me about the true scarcity that existed? What's wrong with you, man? So the key is, was he telling me the truth? I went back the next day to find out. Was there an empty spot on that shelf or had he

just gone to the storeroom, got another one and used this strategy on me, on the next person? And I did go back the next morning, and it was true. There was an empty spot. It was the last one. I went back to my office, and I wrote a very positive five-star review for that shop and that salesperson. So that's the key. I shouldn't want to resist these principles when I see them. If they're used honestly, they inform me into a purchase. You talk about an influence strategy that Amazon uses with its fulfillment employees where every year they offer their fulfillment employees $5,000 if they'll quit. Explain that. They give people an opportunity to quit and they know that the most, the great majority, over 97% choose not to quit. And it's the choice that they want they want people

to make that active choice for Amazon because when people commit themselves publicly and even under conflicting situations like oh I could get $5,000 if I quit, and they choose not to, they become more committed to their job and their productivity goes up. That's really interesting. So they ask employees to quit and tell them they'll pay them if they quit. And so they have to basically say, no, I want to work here. Precisely right. And you know, Jeff Bezos, at the top of the memo that he sends to all those employees every year, says, here is an opportunity to make $5,000 if you quit. And I hope you won't. It's to get people to recognize that they have chosen to stay in the face of a $5,000 bonus to leave.

I'm talking to Robert Cialdini. We're talking about influence and how it works, consciously and unconsciously. Robert is the author of a book that he wrote back in the 80s that has just been updated. It's called Influence, the Psychology of Persuasion. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining,

a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. People who listen to something you should know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives.

So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology.

That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for.

Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. So Bob, I love this example of a question that McDonald's employees asked of their customers. And the question was, would you like to try a McFlurry dessert? And you say there were five words that were added to that question that increased sales by 55%. And those five words were, it's our most popular dessert. It's like the Chinese restaurant. It's our most popular dessert. And then people get off the fence as to decide whether they should have a dessert or not. We all have most popular models, most popular ideas, most popular features, most popular payment plans, right, that we can offer to people, if we just tell them so, that's a reason to stop dithering. Get off the sidelines and into the game. I know I've heard, I think it's pretty common knowledge

that giving someone a compliment is a good way to get them to see things your way, to go along with you. So from what you know about compliments, talk about how they work. What I found is there are two ways to actually increase the benefits of a genuine compliment. One is to give it behind people's backs. Give it to somebody else who tells you. You know what? Cialdini told me he thought you asked a brilliant question of him. You feel better about it than if I had said it to you because there's no ulterior motive involved. It's not like I'm trying to curry favor with you online or on the air, right? Somebody else told you. So if your boss says something brilliant in a meeting, you can't raise your hand and say,

boss, that was stunningly good. You can't say that, but you can say it to your boss's assistant during a coffee break or afterward. The assistant will tell your boss because we know people want to be associated with good news in the eyes of their superiors. And you know what? After your boss hears that you thought this point was brilliant, your boss is going to love you for it. Second way you can increase the effect of a genuine compliment is give it to people as a way, give it as a way to increase the likelihood that they will perform the same action you want to see again. I've got a newspaper carrier.

His name is Carl. He rolls by my house every morning and he throws a newspaper out the window of his car that most of the time lands in the middle of the driveway so it doesn't get wet from the watering systems I have on both sides. He also, every year, includes a little envelope in one of the newspapers around Christmas time with his name and address on it. And I know what it's for. I'm supposed to send him a check as a tip for his service during the year. And I always do that. But this year, because of the research I read on giving compliments that people want to live up to, I included a little note. Carl, thank you for your conscientiousness at getting my newspaper in the center of the driveway so it doesn't get wet. In previous years, about 75% of the time he did that.

This year so far, 100%. I know we've talked about reciprocity, that if you give somebody something, you're more likely to get something. But also, if you personalize the gift, that has even more power, right? A personalized gift is something special. You're giving something special to an individual and the rule for reciprocity says i have to give back to others what they have first given to me which means they now stand ready to give me something special in return not just an ordinary positive response, but a special one. So that's why I have a colleague who says she was able to significantly reduce the lag time from one of her customers.

She puts together conferences and conventions. One of her customers is notorious for being late at paying his invoices. She learned that he is an art aficionado, especially of modern art. So now, with her invoice, she includes a postcard from her local art museum of a piece of modern art that they have in their collection. She says she now gets paid immediately because she's given him something personalized to his preferences. And she says all her colleagues are asking, how do you do this? This guy usually takes six months. She said, I haven't told anybody yet what I do, but it's a personalization of the gift or favor she gives. And he does her something special in

return. So you have such great examples, anecdotes of how influence works in real life. One more that illustrates the importance of one of these principles of influence that you talk about. So I got an email from a Boy Scout leader. And he said, I wonder if you can help me with this. To raise money for the Boy Scout troop, we will sell popcorn outside of supermarkets. They agreed to let us sell popcorn. As people come out, we ask them, would you like to buy some popcorn? It would help the Boy Scouts. And we only get about 15% of the people are willing to do it.

It makes sense. If they wanted popcorn, they would have bought it in the supermarket. They've already spent their budget. They're not inclined to buy more popcorn. And I said, you asked the wrong question first. Here's the question you should ask. Excuse me, do you support the Boy Scouts?

If so, could you buy some of our popcorn? He says they now get over 50% compliance. You ask the right question. Focus them on something that they're committed to. They are committed to to them but they like the

boy scouts and they say yes i do like then you say would you like to buy some popcorn that would support us this guy says some of the people who don't buy the 50 who don't buy say i don't buy, say, I don't want your popcorn, but here's a contribution for the Boy Scouts. They don't even incur the cost of the popcorn. It is amazing. Because so much of this is under the radar, you know, and it's so interesting to kind of shine a spotlight on it and see how this all works, because it's all working all the time, whether we do it deliberately or not. Boy, you just hit a bullseye right there.

It's working on us all the time. And we can use very small changes, like this one I just mentioned. What do you say first when you ask for a favor? To harness this power that's working underneath the surface to drive human behavior. Yes, and it's so important that we all understand this because, as you say, this is what drives human behavior. It's what helps determine whether people do or don't do something. So it's really critical to understand these principles. Robert Cialdini has been my guest. He is author of the book, Influence, The Psychology of Persuasion. And there's a link to his new revised version of that book in the show notes. Thanks for being here, Bob. Thank you. I appreciated your questions because it told me you were prepared for this interview. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan,

the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demontss for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me,

we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong?, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our Lister poll results from But Am I Wrong? And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Recycling has become part of everyday life for most of us. You throw your trash away in one bin and you put your recyclables in another.

And after the things that you recycle leave your house, what happens? Is everything really recycled into something else? Or does a lot of it end up in a landfill right alongside your garbage? What things that you may be putting in your recyclable bin are not really recyclable? All these questions are important for all of us to understand, and here with some expert insight into how recycling really works is Jetty Romer. She is an attorney and leading expert on single-use plastics, and she's author of a book called Can I Recycle This? A Guide to Better Recycling and How to Reduce Single-Use Plastics. Hi Jenny, welcome to Something You Should Know. Hi, thanks for having me. So I like to think that the things I put in my recycle

bin are in fact recycled into something else, but I know they're not all. What percentage of plastic, for example, is actually recycled? Well, only about nine percent of plastics ever produced have been recycled. So we have a major problem with plastics recycling in the U.S. And what about the other things that we think we're recycling? The most valuable recyclables on the market right now tend to be certain plastics. So HDPE number two resin, which tends to be milk jugs and kind of shampoo bottles, followed by aluminum cans are very valuable and cardboard boxes. So there are things that there is a market for, meaning that there's a manufacturer who wants to buy those items after they've been collected and sorted and bailed. But for a whole lot of other plastics, there really isn't someone on the other end who wants to buy them most of the time. And so what I really get

into is the logistics of how recycling machinery works. Once you put it in your bin and it goes to a recycling facility, how it gets sorted out, what problems can happen there, and then whether there's an end buyer who wants to purchase those items. So really looking at recycling in a different way. Yeah, well, isn't it true that a lot of the market for recyclables is gone, that China used to take a lot of it and now they don't? And a lot of it just ends up in the landfill anyway. And in many ways, we're kind of going through this exercise for not a whole lot of reason. I see it as a good thing that China has stopped taking a lot of our low value plastics. Really, they put a contamination cap. They said we'll only take

plastics if there's only 0.5% contamination, which is kind of impossible in our current system. So essentially, they stopped taking all of our low value plastics. And some places are still taking it, but those other countries really don't even have the infrastructure that China had in the first place. And there were a lot of humanitarian and environmental concerns there. But I see it as a good thing that now we're kind of forced to talk about it, because before those plastics were being accepted, and we weren't really talking about what happened next. So you've mentioned pretty much exclusively plastic. What about paper? What about newspapers

and cardboard and stuff like that? There still is a market for a lot of paper. It depends on exactly what paper you're talking about, but magazines, newspapers, cardboard, there is a market for that. A little bit less because China was taking that as well. But we do have a domestic market for that. And cardboard is interesting because it that there has been a problem with cardboard poaching because businesses will put cardboard out on the curb. And if the market value of cardboard is really high, then we'd see people just renting trucks and going out and poaching cardboard. It's been a big problem. Even in New York City, there were charges brought for cardboard poaching.

So some recyclables are very valuable and some aren't. problem. Even in New York City, there were charges brought for cardboard poaching. So, you know, some recyclables are very valuable and some aren't. So let's talk about what our responsibilities are when we put recyclables in the recycle bin. I mean, where I live, trash goes in one, recyclables go in the other. I imagine they're sorted out somewhere else, the plastic from the paper from the glass. But you know, and then I hear things like, well, pizza boxes are not recyclable because of the grease from the pizza basically ruins them. And you shouldn't put those in the recycle bin. I have a little graphic in my book about kind of how dirty can your pizza box be.

And one tip is a lot of the time, the grease from the pizza box will just be on the bottom part of the box. So you can rip off the top part of the box and put that in your recycling bin and then either put the bottom part in compost if you have it or in the trash. So at least you're able to salvage some of the box. And so I think a question a lot of us have is, like, how much good is this doing? I've heard people say that, you know, if all of the recyclables ended up in the trash, we barely notice. It's such a small amount that's actually going anywhere and being actually recycled into something else that, yeah, this feels good and it's very environmental and it makes us all feel good, but it isn't really doing very much. One thing that I really look at is the economics of it. So some plastic is worth almost $1,000 a ton on the commodities market. Other

plastic is worth negative $17, meaning you have to pay someone to take it away. And so having people go through all of the time and water usage to really wash out every little piece of plastic and put it in their bin, if we know it's a plastic that doesn't have a market that isn't eventually going to be turned into another product, no, that's not worth it. But for the plastics that are higher value, for the other materials that are higher value, like aluminum cans, that's definitely worth putting in the recycling bin. I imagine there are a lot of things about the recycling business and how it works that probably we should know that we don't know. And since the name of this podcast is something you should know, what else should we know about how recycling does and doesn't work? Yeah, one thing I like to look out for is when you're in a public place

and you see a recycling bin that's lined with black plastic, a lot of the time that means that it's not going to be recycled because most recyclers won't open an opaque bag. So I think a lot of the time people will put something in the recycling bin and those are very unlikely to get recycled, I'd say almost never. But also when we're recycling, we're putting things into our bin, like you said. And if you put things in your bin, if you wish cycle something that isn't actually recyclable, it could cause a lot of problems there. So for a plastic carryout bag, those shouldn't be in your curbside bins. They tend to clog the recycling machinery, get wrapped around other valuable items.

So they contaminate the source, they clog the machinery, and the facilities have to pay to shut down the line and kind of cut out all the plastic films. People also like to recycle things like garden hoses and extension cords, and those are tanglers for the recycling facilities as well. And then a lot of the smaller things like really small bottle caps that aren't attached to bottles or forks and things like that, if you put them in their bin, they're really not going to make it through all that machinery. Well, wait a minute. You've just said a lot of things we need to go back and talk about. So the plastic bags from the takeout restaurant or maybe even the plastic bags from

the supermarket, those are not recyclable? Well, if you look at the bottom of most of those bags, it'll have a little recycling symbol on it, but then next to it, it'll have what we call a qualified claim. So it'll say, you'll have what we call a qualified claim. So it'll say, you must bring this back to a participating grocery store to recycle. So there are some drop-off programs for plastic films, but most people aren't going to do that. A lot of people just try to put them in their curbside bins. And I'd say 97% of the communities in the U.S. do not accept plastic bags or plastic film for recycling. So like I said, they're tanglers.

They clog up their machinery. No one ever told me that. Well, I'm happy that I'm here with you today. That's a big take-home. But I bet if you asked 100 people, more than 90 of them would say, yeah, we put those bags in the recyclable because they're plastic and plastic is recyclable.

Yeah, exactly. And that's one thing I really want a big take home to be is that plastic isn't just one thing and a lot of it isn't recyclable. So getting back to what you said, you said that if you put your recyclables like in a public place in a thing that is lined with a black bag, it won't get recycled. Why? What's the significance of the black bag? Because at most facilities, if they see a black bag, they are not going to want to open it. Waste management, recycling is a dirty business, and they want to limit their liability a lot of the time to not have their employees open these

mysterious black opaque bags at recycling facilities. Who knows what's in them? So a lot of jurisdictions will require either a clear bag or a tinted blue bag. A lot of places won't even accept bags at all. Waste management, which is the biggest hauler in the U.S., has a new campaign where they aren't accepting bags. But sometimes if you live in a jurisdiction like New York where there really isn't room for garbage cans or what we call toters, like the garbage cans with wheels. And so sometimes putting it in a clear bag is the only option. And I would distinguish the recycling bags, the bigger bags versus the carryout bags. It's a lot of the time when if you have to use the bigger bags to put your recyclables in curbside, those will get opened up at the beginning of the sorting line.

And those bags will probably just be thrown away. So most facilities are able to handle those. Those aren't actually being recycled most of the time, but they're being used to transport the recyclables. But a lot of the time people will also kind of throw in all their carry-out bags thinking that those are going to get recycled, and they aren't. But not only are they not getting recycled, you say they, from what I understand you're saying, is they also just gum up the whole project. Yes, yes. They're tanglers. They clog up all the machinery.

They cost municipal recyclers money because they're having to pay people to take all of those little films out of the gears of the machinery. So one big take home is don't put those carry-out bags in your bins. And I know people, well, I've even sometimes done it where I have recyclables that maybe are wet or rinsed out and still have a little water on them. I'll put them in a kitchen trash bag and put that in the recyclable bin, but it sounds like that's not a good idea either. No, whenever you can, have them just go into the bin without any bag. That's the most helpful thing that you can do. And you said, because every time we get takeout, if there's plastic forks, into the bin without any bag. And that's the most helpful thing that you can do.

And you said, because I mean, every time we get takeout, if there's plastic forks, they go right in the recycle bin because again, they're plastic, but you're saying they're too small to do any good. Yeah, there are two things with utensils. First is that they're small and kind of awkwardly shaped. And so they aren't going to make it through the facility. And then the second thing is that they're made out of a resin type of plastic that's probably number five or number six. And those really don't have a buyer that kind of long roundabout way to the landfill. But I would say that I want people to follow the guidance from their local jurisdiction. So, you know, look at what your jurisdiction accepts or doesn't accept and follow that guidance. But the bigger thing should be to try to avoid those utensils in the first place, especially if you're ordering in and you're at

home and have utensils. And that's one thing we're trying to work on with policy as well, is having a more clear way to be able to tell the restaurant that you're ordering from whether you want utensils. And if you want one fork, then being able to say that versus just getting a whole bag full of various things. You mentioned something a moment ago about, you know, whether do you put on a bottle, do you put the cap back on before you recycle it? And I've always wondered about that because if you're, those are two different materials, so you would think you

would want them separated if it's a plastic bottle with a plastic cap then definitely keep the cap on and so if you have a water bottle and keep the cap on and put it in your bin and then what will happen is that when it gets to the facility if it's a bottle it should be able to make it through and be sorted and bailed and then when it's sold to the manufacturer, what they will do is shred all of that plastic, and then they will do a float sink test. So the caps are generally made from number five plastic, that's polypropylene, and that'll float to the top. And the body of the bottle is made from PET, number one plastic, and that'll sink.

And so they'll be able to separate the two plastics that way. And one thing we haven't talked about that hasn't even come up in this conversation, but I remember when people talked a lot about recycling glass. Do we recycle glass? Yes, we recycle glass. There's one issue with glass, though, is that it's very heavy. And so if you're recycling glass, you really need to have a buyer locally that is going to reprocess it. And so that's one issue. So glass tends to have a little bit lower value on the commodities market just because of that transportation cost.

But glass is inert. And so it's, you know, I encourage people to use glass. And I would also encourage taking advantage of any refill programs that are available in your area. So some places have refillable glass bottles for milk available. I wish I did in my area, but I don't right now. And that's one thing that glass is really great for. Is it true, though, that there has been kind of a fundamental shift here that, you know, in the early days of recycling and when China was taking our stuff that, you know,

recycling was a business that could make money because people paid for that. And now in a lot of cases, people are being paid to take it. Yeah. And so municipal recycling facilities are really getting more involved in policy now. So we've seen that, you know, for a very long time, municipal recycling facilities made, or we call them MRFs, made money by recycling. They would take, you know, take all of our materials from the blue bins, sort them, and then sell them on the commodities market. And for plastics, for most materials, they could get something for it. And so there's been really a fundamental shift from selling those commodities to having to pay to have them landfilled or incinerated or shipped for a much lower value. And so those facilities are starting to talk about policy and

starting to talk about having producers, having manufacturers pay for the cost of recycling rather than having it just be paid for by taxpayers and rate payers, just because it isn't necessarily a money-making proposition anymore, particularly for low-value plastics. I remember hearing someone speak on this topic some years ago. I can't remember his name, but he was a pretty well-respected expert, and he said something to the effect of, as much as recycling is a good thing, what's really filling up our landfills is not recyclables so much as it is construction and demolition debris, and that that is a problem that nobody's really tackling.

Yeah, that's an issue. You know, I focus mostly on consumer side, what's put in the blue bins, but C&D, construction and demolition debris, is a huge deal, a huge problem. And there are some places that are doing a really good job with it. San Francisco, the city of San Francisco in particular, huge deal, huge problem. And there are some places that are doing a really good job with it. San Francisco, city of San Francisco in particular, has a program that really looks at reuse of a lot of those materials. But that's a whole other issue within waste management that really needs a lot of attention as well. So it sounds like what really

has to happen to make this really work is that the stuff that gets recycled has to be made from the right stuff in the first place so that it can be recycled after the product has been used so that there is a market for it and then the cycle actually works. And right now the cycle is kind of broken. Exactly. So starting with those more sustainable, more recyclable materials in the first place is a huge part of the solution. So having consumers when they are at the market knowing kind of what's recyclable and what's not is helpful. But that's not going to solve everything. Not everyone has the time or the energy to really pay attention to that. And we

don't have a lot of choices right now when we're at the market. So having corporations, having the manufacturers be responsible for developing more sustainable packaging is really where we need to go. So the plastic that we recycle, or anything that we recycle, generally, if it does get recycled, it gets recycled into what? Bottles can be made into other bottles, and otherwise things kind of tend to be down-cycled. So bottles can be made into other types of containers, bottles can be plastic bottles can be made into fleece sweaters, or, or carpet. But we really want to see recycling rather than downcycling. So having being able to

have that circular system where a bottle is made back into another bottle rather than downcycled into something that can't be recycled again. But one other thing that we've been working on of post-consumer recycled content, meaning a certain amount of bottles that have been put into a curbside bin and then made into a new bottle. And so that really creates end market demand for that material. Well, this has been really informative. I mean, I like to think of myself as somebody who's, you know, kind of in the know. I know what's going on, but there's a lot of things you've said that I had no idea about what to do and not do when it comes to recycling.

So this has been great. My guest has been Jenny Romer. She's an attorney and expert on single-use plastics and author of the book, Can I Recycle This? A Guide to Better Recycling and How to Reduce Single-Use Plastics. There's a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. Thank you, Jenny. Thanks so much for having me. You never know what could be tucked away in your attic or basement that could be worth some money.

So you might want to check. And here are some things to check for, according to Brian Kathanis, co-author of the book, Betcha Didn't Know That. Any coin dated before 1965, a quarter, a dime, or a half dollar, or a dollar coin. Those coins are made of almost all silver, and in today's market, they are worth several times more than their face value. Anything military, old documents, medals, Civil War discharge papers,

or souvenirs brought back from a war, people collect these and they could bring in some decent cash. Historical autographs. If you have signatures from someone in history, they could be quite a find. The rarest historical autograph in U.S. history is from a guy named Button Gwinnett. Button Gwinnett signed the Declaration of Independence, but he died shortly after that in a duel. All of his papers were burned in a fire, and so his signature is very rare. So rare that someone paid $100,000 for it at auction.

And that is something you should know. Word of mouth is how our audience grows, and you can help us out by telling someone you know about this podcast. Give them the link and tell them to listen. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for

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we figured, hey, now that we're wrapped, let's watch it all again. And we can't do that alone. So we're inviting the cast and crew that made the show along for the ride. We've got writers, producers, composers, directors, and we'll of course have some actors on as well, including some certain guys that played some certain pretty iconic brothers. It was kind of a little bit of a left field choice in the best way possible. The note from Kripke was, he's great, we love him, but we're looking for like a

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