Something You Should Know - Proven Ways to Boost Confidence & How to Overcome Procrastination - SYSK Choice

Episode Date: April 12, 2025

Strange but true - people with difficult names to pronounce are discriminated against. It is often not intentional, but it happens. The result can be that you don’t advance personally or professionally just because people have trouble saying your name. This episode begins by taking a look at this problem and what you can do to help yourself if your name is tough to say out loud. https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/the-power-of-names When you think about it, some of the most successful people you meet appear to have a lot of confidence. It’s an attractive quality when we see it in others and many of us wish we had more of it ourselves. Is there a way to authentically build up your confidence? There is according to my guest Lydia Fenet who is here to tell you how. Lydia is an ambassador for the famous auction house Christie’s and she is an auctioneer and professional speaker. She is also author of the book Claim Your Confidence (https://amzn.to/3GQu8ZS). Everyone procrastinates. After all, what could be easier than NOT doing something? Still, procrastination often turns out to be a lousy strategy. Joining me to help us all understand why we procrastinate and how to stop doing it is Hayden Finch PhD. Hayden is a licensed clinical psychologist, behavior change expert, and author of the book The Psychology of Procrastination (https://amzn.to/41Ik0ua). If you tend to procrastinate you will want to hear what she says – either now or you can put it off and listen later! We all talk to ourselves inside our own heads but there are some real benefits to talking to yourself out loud even though other people may think you are a little weird. Listen and I will explain one of those important benefits. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120417221613.htm PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS!!! FACTOR: Eat smart with Factor! Get 50% off at https://FactorMeals.com/something50off TIMELINE: Get 10% off your order of Mitopure!  Go to https://Timeline.com/SOMETHING INDEED: Get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at https://Indeed.com/SOMETHING right now! SHOPIFY:  Nobody does selling better than Shopify! Sign up for a $1 per-month trial period at https://Shopify.com/sysk and upgrade your selling today! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ooh, nice! Air Canada has a worldwide sale. Wow, look at this deal to the Philippines. Nice, let's book it. But wait, Naples is also a steal. Saving seafood and sun? You want sun? There's a hot deal to Mexico. And even hotter to Yellowknife. Nice, but I thought you wanted tropical hot.

You're all over the map. Well, yeah, we've got over 180 destinations to choose from. Saving on every single destination. Nice. Hurry, book at aircanada.com or contact your travel agent. Conditions apply. Air Canada. Nice travels. Today on Something You Should Know, why having a name that's difficult to pronounce can hold

you back. Then, building up your confidence. It can pay off big. When you become confident, it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy because that confidence propels you to try things and not to care so much about the result. So a lot of times I believe people who've been through really difficult things often have more confidence than people who don't. Also, do you talk to yourself out loud? Maybe you should. And why do people procrastinate? A lot of procrastinators believe

they do it because they perform better under pressure. There is some truth to that. A certain group of people does work better under pressure, but by and large, almost everyone who believes that to be true about themselves is wrong if we test that out in a research lab. So that is a false assumption that a lot of us are making about ourselves. All this today on Something You Should Know. Okay, Martin, let's try one. Remember, big.

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And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hello, welcome to Something You Should Know. We have a lot to cover today and I want to start by talking about your name, your full name. If your name doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, it could hold you back professionally. A study looked at a group of adults and their promotability and those with easy to pronounce or fluent surnames like Dunlop or Stevenson, they were seven to eight percent more

likely to be promoted. Those people whose last names were overlooked in the promotion department, just as they are being overlooked here. We don't do it on purpose, but when we're processing names and data, our brains prefer information that's easier to comprehend. With fluent names, there's less risk of embarrassing ourselves or insulting someone because we mispronounce it. If your name is unusual or difficult to pronounce, you can actually put yourself at an advantage by choosing a nickname. Participants in the study who had a nickname listed on their resume or contact information actually stood out more and were easier to recognize.

And that is something you should know. Who of us couldn't use a little more confidence? Some of us wish we had a lot more confidence, at least in certain situations. So where does confidence come from? How do you get it if you don't have it? And how do you make sure you don't lose it? Well here to discuss this is Lydia Finnett. Lydia is an ambassador for Christie's, you know, the auction people.

She herself is an auctioneer, having helped raise over a billion dollars for nonprofits. And she is author of a book called, "'Claim Your Confidence." And she's here to talk about how confidence works and how to get more of it. Hi Lydia, welcome to something you should know. Thank you so much, Mike. I'm delighted to be here.

So where does confidence come from? Are you born with it and then some people lose it? Or must you acquire it through life experience? Or how do you become confident? I believe we're all born with confidence. And it's up to us over the course of our life to claim that confidence by putting ourselves outside of the box that we are supposed to be in

over the course of our life. So I don't think that playing by anyone else's rules or necessarily being comfortable all the time is what makes you confident. I think it oftentimes happens from pushing yourself into the places that make you a little uncomfortable that you learn how much you're capable of and it allows you to grow and really grow into the confidence that I believe we all have within us. Do you know, I don't know if you've done the research or know the research, but how people feel generally about their confidence? Do they wish they had more? Do they think they're fine? Just what's the general sense? I was on book tour for my first book and

the word confidence was something that I heard almost every time I had a question and answer session. So anytime I would get up and say, you know, at the end of a speech, does anyone have any questions? One of the first questions I would get was always, how are you so confident? Or where did you become so confident? Or most often, do you have imposter syndrome? And if so, how did you get rid of it? Or how can I get rid of it? So

to answer your question, I think most people don't have it or if they did have it when COVID came along, I think a lot of people lost it. So this is the time that we all have the opportunity to reclaim it and to claim what we might have had once in our lives that we didn't feel like we had anymore. And so if you have confidence, what is it? What does it feel like to be a confident person? I think confidence feels like you are entirely sure of who you are.

So if you walk into a room, you're not thinking to yourself, oh gosh, is everyone thinking that I'm not supposed to be here? Or if someone makes a comment about you that you overhear something that isn't necessarily kind, it doesn't affect you because you realize that that's about them, not about you. It's being comfortable in your own skin and confident in the person that you are at that moment, regardless of what other people around you think or frankly, what other things happen around you. I love that definition. That's perfect. But here's the thing. All of those things that you just described,

of hearing a comment about you, of walking into a room and thinking this, that describes probably 90% of every teenager in high school. They all feel that way. But there's always those kids in high school or junior high school who seem to have it all together. Now, either they're faking or they have something the other people don't. Yeah, I think that there's truth to that. I think a little bit of it's faking, but I think it probably is that they were tested early on and realized that they were strong and kept following that thread.

Because the interesting thing about confidence I found in my own life is when you become confident, it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy because that confidence propels you to try things and not to care so much about the result, but really understand that it's more about the journey. So a lot of times I believe people who've been through really difficult things often have more confidence than people who don't because they've already seen that they can stand up again, they can keep going. As a result of that, it makes them stronger. If you think about someone who's an ultra athlete or somebody who has exceeded all expectations of what their career should be, they're probably a pretty confident person because they've been knocked down a lot to get to that point. Athletes will stand on top of the Olympic gold medal podium holding that gold medal, but

at the end of the day, how many defeats went into that to get them there? Many, right? But they've overcome it and they've learned from it. So I would think that there are certainly some people who are born with the Teflon skin, nobody can knock them down. But I also believe that there are a lot of people who through small actions over the course of their life have built up confidence and can take that confidence with them wherever they go. It sounds as if what you're saying

is that confidence comes as the result of what you do throughout your life. It's your life experience that will boost your confidence. But how do you deliberately try to get it it rather than just wait for things to happen? How do you go out and try to deliberately boost your confidence? I think it really comes down to pushing yourself outside of the things that make you feel comfortable. So let's say that you're a person, and I often say this because I teach a lot of people how to do public speaking, that if you're a person who's scared of public

speaking and you feel like you have no confidence when you get on stage with a microphone, what is the thing that you don't want to do? Get on stage with a microphone. So what you should do is get up every single time you have the opportunity to stand up in front of a group of two people, in front of a group of 10 people, you should, if you have the opportunity, take a class to make yourself try and feel that failure or feel that greatness in either side. Just keep practicing because again, that's where confidence comes from. You don't get confident when you're at the top of the mountain. You get confident learning how to get there. And once you get there, because you're up there, you've realized that you've

dealt with all of these issues to get yourself to the top. And all of that learning has allowed you to be confident and to continue being confident throughout your life. So whatever it is that you're not confident about, if you don't feel it at all, start pushing yourself to try something that you don't think you can do. Because honestly, I think a lot of times we will surprise ourselves. We have no idea what we're capable of until we've pushed ourselves outside of that comfort zone. So it sounds like what you're saying is that to gain confidence, you really have to force yourself to do the things that every fiber in your being is telling you you don't want

to do. So where do you get the motivation? I mean, how do you do that? In small steps, you know, it's all about the micro steps when you're trying to do something. So let's go back to public speaking since that was something I talked about earlier in the interview. When it comes to public speaking, if your ultimate goal is to be able to stand in front of a room of people If your ultimate goal is to be able to stand in front of a room of people confidently and speak, then take the opportunities that are smaller that don't seem quite as large and overwhelming. If there is an opportunity, I'm a parent of three, so there are a lot of parent-teacher moments over the course of the year. What I would say to someone who's trying to be a better public speaker is, stand up and ask a question. You have that opportunity. It happens every single month. There's a parent teacher

conference, stand up once the month and ask a question. Feel that adrenaline come in, understand what nerves feel like. Because once you feel it, you start to recognize it. And then it stops, it stops holding that fear over you that grip over you. And you know, in terms of asking the girl out, I think sometimes you just have to have a leap of faith. But in other things, there's always the opportunity to practice when the lift or the setting is low, so that you have the opportunity to get better the more you do it. There does seem to be a pretty strong connection between confidence and competence.

That if you're good at something, if you have the skills to do something well, you probably feel pretty confident at doing it. And the only way to get confident at doing it is to do it. Definitely. I've become a charity auctioneer over the course of my career, but when I tried out, I was young, I was not very good. And I had all of these sort of disastrous nights on stage where I would get up there and something would go terribly awry and I would leave and cry a lot because that was always sort of my coping mechanism for not being competent,

but wanting to be more competent and also to gain confidence on stage. And what I learned every single time was that when something happened on stage that went terribly wrong, it prepared me for the next time that it happened again. Because over the course of a two decade career where you're on stage over 60, 70, 80 nights a year, things do go wrong pretty much every single time. So we talk a lot about microphones, right?

That's an important part of your interview process. You want to make sure that it's great. I've been on stage nine times over the course of my career where people have either forgotten to get a microphone or the microphone just didn't work. And so I've had to learn what to do when I get on stage and that happens. And now if there's no microphone, no problem. I know exactly what to do because it's happened to me so many times. But the first time it happened to me, I was not competent and it was a disaster. I cried for the entire evening afterwards. After I left, I sort of

crawled out of there with nothing but shame. But the bottom line is I didn't die. I survived and I went back and did it again and again and again. And that's where that competency piece, as you said, is such a huge part of confidence, because you've learned how to do something, you've spent the time learning how to do it, and it gives you the confidence to try more and to take more on. Our topic on the table today is confidence. And I'm speaking with Lydia Finnett. She's author of a book called Claim Your Confidence.

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visit connectsontario.ca. So Lydia, you talk about how action leads to action. And I've always found that one of the ways to never get anywhere is to never do anything and to just sit and think about it. And there is something very powerful about doing almost anything in the direction of what you're trying to do, because it starts the momentum.

It makes you feel like you're doing something which makes you do more things, it seems to me. Yes, I completely agree with that on every level. And I think that anytime you have a business, for the people out there who own their own business, I give this amazing example in my book of a friend of mine during COVID who was an artist and was so paralyzed with

fear about money during COVID as many people were. She was thinking to herself, my art is not in these galleries anymore. What am I going to do? She was still creating art by the picture after picture after picture. I think it was her outlet during COVID, but what she'd lost was that confidence in being able to sell it. From the outside looking in, nothing had changed for her. In fact, people were at home for the first time in their lives where they were just staring at walls. So art was something everybody wanted. It was just a question of her reminding people that she was out there. We had a long conversation one day and I used that same phrase, action leads to action. I was like, Kate, you have

to go out there and get those clients. It's not their responsibility to come to you. You have to remind them what you're doing. You have to get your art out there in front of them. And it was amazing to watch that spark because once it started, it was like a wildfire. I mean, she was hosting sales online and she was going back to clients and all of a sudden she had all of these new clients and these new commissions. For me, that was just such a perfect example of how action leads to action. You can't, as you said, sit there and wait for something to happen to you. You make everything happen that you want to happen in your life. There's always that fear though of looking foolish, of getting rejected.

Whatever you fear is going to happen if you pick up the phone and call somebody or do something, you're going to fail. And that's going to make you feel even worse. So maybe you're better off just not doing anything and hope magic knocks at the door. Yeah. Or here's another way to think of it.

My sister's an entrepreneur, and she said this to me once, which I absolutely love. Out of every 10 asks, nine will be a no, guaranteed as an entrepreneur. So you just have to keep asking for that one and always start looking for that one out of 10. And it was funny because she said it to me years ago and it really stuck when I was doing the case studies in my book because I asked women, very powerful, successful women, to share their thoughts. The first person I asked was this very well-known anchor on CBS. I'd been seated next to her at a lunch in New York and had given her my information and we'd had a great conversation.

So I was like, I'm sure she'll do it if I ask. And I sat there, I mean, I can't even tell you, I probably sat there for 10 minutes, just looking at the button waiting to hit send. And her email came back pretty quickly with a, unfortunately, I can't do this contractually, it doesn't work for me. But I had a list of 59 other people behind her. And the amazing thing was after that first no, none of them really stung. Does that make sense? After you've taken that leap and the no has been said, or the thing you fear the most has happened, it's actually a lot easier on the other side.

So what I would say to anybody who is scared to take that leap, or is fearful, or feels like someone's gonna think that they're silly, or who cares? At the end of the day, if you're living the life you want, and the life that you wanna create for yourself, it's gonna happen.'s going to be part of it. It happens to all of us. But be confident that that does not define you. That's just part of your journey. So embrace it. And remember, nine nos, one yes. And then if two people say yes out of 10, you're incredibly excited.

Talk about the imposter syndrome, because I think that is that I think that's a big problem for a lot of people. I think more people than care to admit it. Absolutely. And that going back to what I said, it's something that I hear at almost every Q&A. It doesn't matter man, woman, age. It has no boundaries, really. So imposter syndrome is that feeling you get when you walk into a room and you think you shouldn't be there because everyone around you is much smarter or better or has a better opinion than you do. And sometimes you might be right, but you're not helping yourself by thinking that about

yourself. So what I say in my chapter on impostor syndrome is because I'm an auctioneer, I use acronyms that have gavel related moments. So I say to slam it down and that can be summed up in four letters, S-L-A-M, slam. So the first, stop counting yourself out before you've even had the chance to get in the room. I'm sure you've heard this, Mike.

I've heard this from so many accomplished friends over the course of my life. When someone puts them up for something, an award or a promotion, they're the first one to back out of it. No, no, no. I could never do that. I don't even really know how.

No, there's a reason someone's put your name forward. Step into that role. You will learn it. Step into that moment. You will take it. Don't be the person who counts yourself out before you even have a chance to get in the room. The L is for listen.

Listen to what someone is saying, not what you think they're saying. So the next time you find yourself going into a negative spiral because someone has said something that you perceive as negative, instead of putting a tail on the end of it that's negative, turn it into a positive spin. So in my own experience, I had three children in four years. So I was on maternity leaves three out of four years. And as you can imagine, it becomes a very uncomfortable thing because you just assume that everyone around you is thinking that you're not good at your job anymore. You're not doing it. Plus you have

this incredible child, children at home where you're trying to balance everything and it's a lot of work, especially those very early years. And I remember going back to work and someone said to me as I was walking through the office, hey, it's so good to see you back here again. And I remember thinking, oh my God, they must be thinking that they haven't seen me and that's why they said that. And then I just went into this negative spiral about how I'd had three children so quickly. It was just the most ridiculous thing because that's not what the person had said to me. They'd said it was nice to see me back in the office. And so I decided that day to make a change in terms of my mentality about when people said

things to me, what I was going to take from them. But I refused to put myself into that negative spin anymore. It had taken way too much time and layered on too many layers of imposter syndrome for me. The A is to accept that there are no gold stars in life as an adult. So I don't know how many people you've interfaced with over the course of your life, Mike, but I oversaw a lot of different teens at work. And one thing that I noticed amongst some of the people who worked for me was that they were always looking for a gold star from someone else. They wanted someone to applaud them for work done or something that was just part of their daily job. And what I said to them all the time is at some point in your life, especially as an adult,

you have to accept that no one gives you a gold star. You have to give yourself the gold star. You are old enough to know if what you've done is good, if your work quality is good, if in my case I got off stage and an auction went well, I know. I don't need anyone else to tell me that. And again, going back to that confidence piece, what happens is if you are looking for other people's praise and they don't give it to you, that takes away from your confidence too. So accept that there are no gold stars for doing the things that you want to do in your life and really take ownership of your life and make sure that people understand that

you give yourself the gold star and that's enough. And the final, the M, is make your point and don't back down. A lot of times people will start to backpedal as soon as they're challenged, even if they're in the right. If you know what you're talking about and you have the confidence to back it up, make your point and don't back down. Don't forget that your opinion matters just as much as anyone else in the room does and never forget that. So the next time you feel like you have an imposter syndrome creeping in, I suggest you slam it down.

Do you think most people, if they are confident, are confident in all areas of life because it's just a mindset? Or they're confident in the thing they're confident in, but the rest of their life could be falling apart? I think that you can be confident in certain areas of your life and not confident in others. I mean, I've certainly seen that with people

who are confident in their work life, but maybe not so much in their personal life. But again, I think at some point it all starts to blend together. Maybe not when you're 18 years old, but as you move through your life into your late 20s and 30s and 40s and 50s and beyond, I do believe that all of those things do inform one another. You can't be confident at work unless you are somewhat confident personally, because you can't walk into a room and own a room unless you're feeling confident on the inside.

That's what you're going to need to do to succeed in work. I do believe that you can have confidence that ebbs and flows in certain areas. I do think that that's something that happens with confidence in general. It goes and comes. But as long as you are propelling yourself forward to try new things and to push yourself out of your comfort zone, you will be able to maintain confidence in every facet of your life. Which is exactly what people would love to do, would love to have, is that level of confidence. I've been speaking with Lydia Finett and she is author of a book called Claim Your Confidence. If you'd like to check that book out, there is a link to it in the show notes. Thanks so much Lydia, appreciate your time. I appreciate your time, Mike.

Thank you so much. This was such an incredible interview. You were such a wonderful interviewer. I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times. And I'm Paul Scheer, an actor, writer, and director. You might know me from the league, Veep, or my non-eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters. We come together to host Unspooled,

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Hello, I'm Robin Ince. And I'm Brian Cox. And we would like to tell you about the new series of The Infinite Monkey Cage. Hello, I'm Robin Ince. And I'm Brian Cox. And we would like to tell you about the new series of The Infinite Monkey Cage. We're going to have a planet off. Jupiter versus Saturn! Well, it's very well done that because in the script it does say wrestling voice. After all of that, it's going to kind of chill out a bit and talk about ice.

And also in this series, we're discussing history of music, recording with Brian Eno and looking at nature's shapes. So listen wherever you get your podcasts. When you first went to school and put off doing your homework, you probably heard that you should not procrastinate. Why put off till tomorrow what you can do today? And yet it seems procrastination is really kind of a human tendency. We almost all do it sometimes and some of us more than others. So what is it about

procrastination? What causes it? Is it a sign of laziness or is it something else entirely? Well the perfect person to address those questions is Hayden Finch. She is a licensed clinical psychologist, behavior change expert. She's also author of a book called The Psychology of Procrastination. Hi Hayden, thank you for coming on Something You Should Know. Thank you for having me, I'm so excited to be here. So is it your sense from doing the research that procrastination is just human nature?

It's what people do? In general, probably. We know that humans are inclined towards procrastination, and we have some evidence from researching other animals that they also are inclined towards procrastination. So there is something sort of like bi are inclined towards procrastination. So there is something sort of biologically driven about procrastination. So I guess a good place to start is

to explain what you mean by the psychology of procrastination. I just thought it was something people do, something I do. But I didn't know there was a whole psychology around it. So can you explain that? By that, we're talking about all of the things that influence that as a behavior. So we think of procrastination as a behavior or in this case like the absence of behavior. And when we're talking about psychology, we're not only talking about behavior, but we're also talking about the thoughts and feelings and even life experiences that influence

that behavior. So all of that is part of the psychology of procrastination. So when I procrastinate, and I don't know that I'm a horrible procrastinator, but I have certainly been known to put things off. And I tell myself why I do that. The reason I do that is because, you know, whatever, I got plenty of time, I can do it later, I'd rather do this thing now than that thing.

Are all those really the reason or is there often something else going on? That's definitely part of it, right? Like the language that we use to talk to ourselves about our behavior, it matters. It influences the behavior that ultimately we perform. And also, it's not the whole story. You're right on that, that those are excuses or reasons that we give to justify a particular action or inaction, but it's not the complete story for sure.

What's the complete story? Or what are other pieces of the story? Right. Well, there's the emotional side of it, which my perspective is that there's this emotional side to it that we neglect. We think of, again, procrastination as a behavior, but we neglect this emotional side. So say you want to, you know, just fold your laundry. You've had it done, it's washed and dried, but it's not folded and it's been something you've been putting off. There might be reasons for that. There might be legitimate reasons. There are other things that you've been putting off. There might be reasons for that. There might be legitimate reasons. There are other things that you've wanted to work on,

other things you need to do, other things you want to do. But the other part of that story is the just like, ugh, I don't want to. That feeling, that like, ugh, I'd rather not. That feeling is a huge part of what ultimately motivates procrastination. One of the things I think procrastinators often say is they put things off because they

like the pressure of the deadline. things I think procrastinators often say is they put things off because they like the pressure of the deadline. They like to have their back up against the wall because they claim that with that pressure, they do better work. What do you say? There is some truth to that, that a certain group of people does work better under pressure.

But by and large, almost everyone who believes that to be true about themselves is wrong. If we test that out in a research lab, we find that people actually perform poorer. They make more mistakes, for example, when they are under pressure versus when they have adequate time to really put some thought into it. So that is a that is a false

assumption that a lot of us are making about ourselves. Is procrastination not a problem if you think it's not a problem? Well it's sort of not a problem unless it is a problem right and and we might not be aware of the problems that it's causing which is the trouble.. We have evidence that procrastination affects loneliness. It affects economic difficulties. It affects depression and anxiety. And it sometimes is difficult to draw a straight line

from my procrastination to my financial difficulties. Sometimes it's easy to draw that straight line, and sometimes it's harder. And so that's the difficulty here, is it can be difficult to know all of the problems that are caused by your procrastination. And also, sometimes the problems caused by your procrastination don't actually impact you so much, but maybe it's impacting your coworkers,

because you're always responding to emails at the last minute, or the projects that you turn in aren't the highest quality, and it doesn't really affect you all that much but your co-workers or your boss cares more than you do. Do most procrastinators self-identify as procrastinate? Do they say yeah I procrastinate and I'm proud of it or whatever they want to say but but do they realize it in themselves or do they go I don't know what you're talking about? Yeah one of the things that I've discovered in my career in the last few years is that even people who don't think

of themselves as procrastinators, for example, I'm one of those, it's not something that I've personally ever really struggled with. I realize that even those people are procrastinating on something. And that's been a really interesting exercise for me professionally is to see, oh, oh, me, right? Personally, I don't procrastinate

on the typical things like work stuff or school stuff or even my chores. But I'm procrastinating on a whole lot of other things so that I can make sure that I get all of those things done in a timely manner. And when I look at procrastination through that lens, it seems like basically everybody I come into contact with is procrastinating

somewhere in their lives to be able to make space for the other things that they're not procrastinating on. So one of the things that I think procrastinators or people in general do, because you hear this thing like work expands to fill the time, that if you give yourself plenty of time, it'll take that much time. But if you give yourself five minutes to fold the laundry instead of 25 minutes to fold the laundry,

it'll get done in five minutes, and that that would be a good thing. An interesting thing about procrastination is that people who procrastinate habitually tend to be pretty poor at estimating how much time a task will take, which is part of what influences procrastination. And that's related here because if I think I can squeeze it into an hour

and that would be like the right amount of time to really do a good job but to not waste too much time, I could be off on my estimate. So I really have to start watching time in my life and getting pretty good at estimating what is the right amount of time to dedicate to a project. Are procrastinators, I don't know if you've ever looked at this, are procrastinators typically people who are late and or are late people typically procrastinators? I think the second might be truer than the first. People who struggle with punctuality

tend to also struggle with timeliness in other parts of their lives. It's just a difficulty with perceiving time in general. But people who are procrastinators don't necessarily struggle with punctuality, necessarily. Their procrastination may show up with other things in life. Because one of the things that seems to happen with people who are chronically late

that I've noticed, and I'm not typically one of them, I like to be on time, I notice that people who are late don't learn from their lateness, and then they're on time the next time because they learned, oh, this is going to take longer than I thought. They're always late. They never get it. And I wonder, is that the same thing with procrastinators?

Do they not learn, this would have been a lot easier if I had done this sooner, and so next time I will? There is definitely something to that. You would think that if I do something and I get a less than ideal outcome, that I would learn from that experience and change my behavior the next time. And that is true in some areas of life. For a certain group of people, and especially people who are habitual procrastinators, that

tends to not follow. And so for people who just kind of like periodically procrastinate, yes, like that is probably what keeps them in that periodically procrastinating group of people. The folks who struggle with this habitually probably aren't learning from that experience. And my hypothesis is because they're actually learning something different. So rather than learning like, oh, like that was,

that didn't turn out well, I should do that next time. They're actually learning something different. Like, well, at least I didn't have to deal with that for a month in prepping for this project or this performance. At least I just had to deal with that for a week or something. And so there's some other message that they're learning or some sort of very strong emotional experience that's

keeping that behavior pattern alive, even though it doesn't make good rational sense. It just seems that there are people, I guess I'm one of them. I certainly don't do things early necessarily. I'm not one of those people. I don't know, I imagine it's somewhat of a sliding scale that you're not either a procrastinator or you're not. It's just, it's where you fall on the scale.

And I'm okay with it. I mean, it's just where you fall on the scale. And I'm okay with it. I mean, it seems to work for me, but it's also a case where I don't really think about that there's any other way to do it. I don't, even when I screw it up and I'm late or I don't do as good a job as I could have done, I don't think necessarily that there's a big lesson there. Yeah, and that's probably because in your life, you've figured out how to manage yourself and your time

in a way to keep those catastrophic consequences from being part of your life. Some people aren't able to manage the procrastination that well, and so they do end up with some pretty significant, even catastrophic consequences in front of them. So you're right. It's a spectrum from people who really don't struggle with this at all to people who are struggling with it so much

that they're filing for bankruptcy, or they're losing their jobs, or they're having other catastrophic consequences. Yeah, that would be a problem. Yeah, right. That would be a big problem. So imagine that the advice for procrastinators is something more than knock it off,

because that probably doesn't work too well. So what is it? It would be great if it did. What is the advice besides knock it off? Yeah. It's a great question. And my thesis is that it's less about time management and more about emotion management.

So poor time management, to be clear, poor time management can certainly affect procrastination and improving those skills can definitely be helpful. So those are things like planners and setting priorities for the day and having some goals and getting organized, all of that, that can certainly be helpful. But ultimately overcoming procrastination requires that you address the deeper emotional

stuff that's going on. And you do that how? Well, for one, you have to identify it. So when you're looking at the kinds of things that you're procrastinating, you have to be honest with yourself about what's going on here. Why is it so hard for me to get my documentation done at work? Oh, for one, I just don't want to, that I don't want a feeling.

Documentation just isn't fun, and so I just put it off. But two, I also feel kind of ashamed that a lot of documentation has stacked up, and that doesn't feel good. I don't feel good about the job that I've done. I also feel really overwhelmed by how much has stacked up. And I feel scared because maybe you're a doctor, right? I don't get paid unless this documentation is submitted.

And so I'm actually losing out on income for me and my staff. It's hard to pay my overhead. And so they're all of those emotions. And unless you address that anxiety and the overwhelm and these other emotions that I mentioned, you're going to have a really hard time sitting down and getting that documentation done. Because it's not as simple as just sitting down and doing it.

It's like confronting the shame and it's confronting the anxiety and it's confronting like the real mass of the problem that is piled up in front of you. Yeah. See, well, that's hard for me to understand. Cause to me it is about sitting down and doing it. Like the only way this is going to get done

is if you sit down and do it. And yeah, okay, I get the shame and the frustration and all that other stuff. But at the end of the day, the only way it's going to get done is if you sit down and do it. For sure. That's definitely going to be a key piece of it. Yes, yes. The task is not going to be done unless you engage with it. What we want to do is make it so that you can engage with it. What a lot of us do when we're dealing with procrastination is we have the idea like, oh yeah, I need to sit down and go through the mail. Oh yeah, I need to get my documents together for my taxes.

We have that idea. And so we know that we need to do it. But what keeps us from getting from that idea to actually doing it is typically emotional. Something else comes up that we'd rather do, something comes up that seems more important. Something comes up emotionally that kind of takes us off course. And that's where we have to kind of put that under a microscope to figure out what happened

between the thought I should get my tax documents together and then like the decision to not do it right now. And that's where a lot of good work happens. Well, there is this thing that happens. I think it happens. I think everybody can relate to this, where you know you're supposed to do something. You know you're putting it off because you somehow have convinced yourself, to use your example, that folding the laundry is much more important and that in fact that might actually be fun to do, even though it never is fun any other time, or cleaning the closet needs to get done, even though you haven't done it in seven years. That's the thing I never really understood,

is why is it that people do that? Yeah, so we call this productive procrastination, right? So I'm procrastinating with something else that also needs to get done, is also important. It's just maybe not the highest priority right now, or not really where I should be putting my time and energy. And that's a really interesting thing. So what happens is, say what I really need to be doing

is getting my tax documents together. But instead, what I end up doing is organizing my closet. When I think about doing my tax documents, there's probably some sort of emotion that comes up in that. Probably they're just like, ugh, that feels like a lot of work, or ugh, I don't really wanna do that. So some kind of emotion comes up in there.

And then I make a decision. Well, I'm gonna do my tax documents anyways, even though I have that feeling. Or, you know what, I'm gonna go organize the closet right now. I'll come back to this later. And that decision point is really important. Because if I make the decision to, you know now. I'll come back to this later. And that decision point is really important. Because if I make the decision to, I'll come back to this later.

I'll just go do the closet right now. That I just don't want a feeling goes away. And you feel this relief because that feeling disappears. And then even if that second behavior that I chose, in this case cleaning the closet, even if that's not particularly exciting or fun, even if it's just particularly exciting or fun, even if it's just a little bit better than doing the taxes,

that might be enough for our brains to prefer that. Because it doesn't have to be fun or have to be really that much better. It just has to be a tiny bit less bad than what we were starting with. Because that relief that you feel in choosing that other option is what keeps this cycle going. My observation is that if it's a task that you're having trouble doing, probably the

hardest part of doing any task is the starting. If you can just get started and so there's that tip and I've used this myself is give yourself 10 minutes, 20 minutes to work on a task and give yourself permission to stop at that point. And often you may not stop at that point, but knowing you can stop makes it easier to start. Yeah, that's a great tip. And it doesn't have to be 20 minutes, right?

If you feel like all you can stand of this task because it's particularly aversive is one minute or five minutes, then that's the place to start. But the reason that is helpful is because having a guaranteed time that the pain is going to end helps us persist through pain. Just like if you were to take a cold shower and you know,

I only have to be in here for three minutes, you can persist for that three minutes versus just having no idea when it's going to end. And this is it's kind of playing on that same thing. Having an end to the pain helps us persist through it. Yeah. Well, and also I find that when you do a project like that and you get all your documents done and ready and all the blanks are filled in, it feels really good. Like, wow, I got it done.

But why can't people see that in the beginning that the end is actually pretty good? It's just you got to get there. You got to run the race. Yeah, it's one of those irrational things about human psychology. You would think that reminding yourself of how good this is going to feel at the back end

would help us overcome that initial aversiveness. And in some cases it can. And I do think that's a useful strategy to deliberately take the time to remind ourselves that it's going to feel good. When you finish this workout, you're going to feel so good. That is a helpful strategy.

And ultimately engaging in the task requires that we push through the difficult starting part, more so than just relying on knowing that it's going to feel good at the end. It is the starting, right? I mean, that, to me, has always been the hardest part of anything, is to get started. Is that fair to say?

Right. And that's the emotional thing. Once you can get started, then the emotions are going to take a back seat. The emotions are there to try to keep you from getting started. And they're really effective at that for a lot of people. But once you can get past that, then the emotions will go to the side.

And then it's a lot easier to continue engaging with it past that. I think generally people have a negative view of procrastination, that it's not a good thing, it's not a trait you really want to have, and that procrastination is a sign of laziness or lack of motivation, maybe more than anything else. One thing to keep in mind is that we can't rely on motivation as an antidote to procrastination. That is one of the things that keeps procrastination going,

is this belief that, oh, I'll do it when I'm motivated, or I'll do it when I feel like it, or I don't feel like it right now, so I'm just not going to do it right now. So some version of, I just don't feel like it right now, I'll do it when I do. That will keep us stuck in procrastination indefinitely. We have to be able to find a strategy

to do an activity even when we're not motivated. So motivation can't come before action. You have to reverse that. So take action first and then count on motivation to maybe come down the road, maybe. But we kind of want to just remove that from the equation altogether. I think this is helpful for people because not only is procrastination a problem, but also

when you beat yourself up for procrastinating, it makes it even worse and maybe we can stop doing that now. I've been talking to Hayden Finch. She is a clinical psychologist and author of the book, The Psychology of Procrastination and there is a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks Hayden, thanks for being here. Yeah thanks Mike, this has been a really fun interview. Thanks for the opportunity to share more about procrastination with your audience. Do you talk to yourself? We all have this image I think of people who talk to themselves as being a little bit

odd, but actually, it's quite alright to talk to yourself. In fact, a study published in Science Daily suggests that talking to yourself could actually help you get through life a little easier. They did a couple of experiments. Participants were given a list of objects to find. The first group had to remain silent during their search. The second group was encouraged to repeat the names of the hidden objects as they went looking for them. The self-talkers found all the stuff a lot faster than the silent searchers.

So you might want to give it a try. Say the next time you lose your keys, repeat the word keys out loud, over and over. Keys keys keys. By doing that, you can change your perceptual processing and temporarily turn your visual system into a key detector. And that is something you should know. If you know someone who would enjoy this podcast many lovers that they formed a lover's union?

Or what about the Aboriginal Australian bandit who faked going into labour just to escape the police, which she did escape from them, it was a great plan. How about the French queen who murdered her rival with poison gloves? I'm Anne Foster, host of the feminist women's history comedy podcast Vulgar History. Every week I share the saga of a woman from history whose story you probably didn't already know, and you will never forget after you hear it. Sometimes we re-examine well-known people like Cleopatra or Pocahontas, sharing the truth behind their legends.

Sometimes we look at the scandalous women you'll never find in a history textbook. Listen to Vulgar History wherever you get podcasts. And if you're curious, the people I was talking about before, the Australian woman is named Mary Ann Bug and the French actress was named Rochelle, no less name, just Rochelle. And the queen who poisoned her rival is Catherine de Medici. I have episodes about all of them. From the podcast that brought you to each of the last lesbian bars in the country and

back in time through the sapphic history that shaped them comes a brand new season of cruising beyond the bars. This is your host, Sara Gabrielli, and I've spent the past year interviewing history-making lesbians and queer folks about all kinds of queer spaces, from bookstores to farms to line dancing and much more. For 11 years, every night women slept illegally on the common. We would move down to the West Indies to form a lesbian nation.

Meg Christen coined the phrase women's music, but she would have liked to say it was lesbian music. And that's kind of the origins of the Convihuguer collective. You can listen to Cruising on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes air every other Tuesday starting February 4th.