Something You Should Know - Setting Effective Boundaries & How to Make Important Decisions Confidently - SYSK Choice

Episode Date: October 5, 2024

When someone first sees you, what impression do they get? What image do you project? It’s important to think about this if you want to be persuasive. This episode begins by looking at how people judge you, your ideas, opinions and recommendations. And so much of it has to do with who you present yourself to be. Source: Robert Mayer author of the book Power Plays (https://amzn.to/3BWHKzy). Do you ever wish you were better at setting boundaries with others? If you can accomplish it, the benefits are tremendous and it can make your life much more enjoyable.  And it may not be as difficult as you think says my guest Melissa Urban who is an expert on setting boundaries. Melissa is author of The Book of Boundaries: End Resentment, Burnout, and Anxiety –and Reclaim Your Time, Energy, Health, and Relationships. (https://amzn.to/3BVoxOF). Listen as Melissa explains how to set boundaries with people without offending them. You’ll hear actual scripts to say to make it easy for you to do. When it comes to making big decisions in life, the problem is often not making the wrong decision – it is making no decision at all. We put off deciding and either never decide or decide too late. Joining me on today’s episode with some wonderful advice on this is Dr. Neil Shortland. He is an expert on military decision making and has worked with the Department for Defense and National Institute for Justice. He’s also served as an international expert on security and has been an expert witness on court cases involving decision making. Neil is author of the book Decision Time: How to Make the Choices Your Life Depends On (https://amzn.to/3Ef7fPc). Your sleep environment has a big impact on how well and how much you sleep. Listen as I share one simple thing you can do tonight before you go to bed that will help you sleep so much better. is. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/feb/09/clean-crisp-bedding-brings-comfort-like-nothing-else PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS!!! MINT MOBILE: Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at https://MintMobile.com/something! $45 upfront payment required (equivalent to $15/mo.).  New customers on first 3 month plan only. Additional taxes, fees, & restrictions apply. INDEED:  Get a $75 SPONSORED JOB CREDIT to get your jobs more visibility at https://Indeed.com/SOMETHING  Support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast.  Indeed.com/SOMETHING.  Terms and conditions apply. SHOPIFY:  Sign up for a $1 per-month trial period at https://Shopify.com/sysk . Go to SHOPIFY.com/sysk to grow your business – no matter what stage you’re in! DELL:  Dell Technologies and Intel are creating technology that loves ideas, expanding your business and evolving your passions! We push what technology can do, so great ideas can happen. Bring your ideas to life at https://Dell.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Download June's Journey now on Android or iOS. Today on Something You Should Know, how you present yourself can make a big difference in how persuasive you are. Then, setting boundaries. It can be so beneficial to you and it's easier than you think. And I always encourage people often go wrong. When people talk about decision making, they talk about it cognitively. You know, the process of choosing A or B.

They often forget the behavioral step of implementing the choice that you've made. And we have a whole part of our model called implementation failure, which is where people know what the choice is, but they still don't do it. All this today on Something You Should Know. This is an ad for better help. Welcome to the world. Please read your personal owner's manual thoroughly. In it, you'll find simple instructions for how to interact with your fellow human beings and how to find happiness and peace of mind. Thank you and have a nice life. Unfortunately, life doesn't come with an owner's manual. That's why there's BetterHelp Online Therapy. Connect with a credentialed therapist by phone, video, or online chat.

Visit betterhelp.com to learn more. That's betterhelp.com. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome to Something You Should Know. I'll bet there have been times in your life when you wanted to persuade someone of something, so you spent a lot of time preparing exactly the right words to say to make your case. However, according to negotiation expert Robert Mayer,

a person's decision to go along with your proposal is based predominantly and overwhelmingly on who you project yourself to be and not what you say. That personality fit is more important than anything. Also important is your ability to personalize the relationship. If you've ever noticed when a police officer pulls you over, they never have their first name on their name tags, only their last name, because if you call them by their first

name, it personalizes the relationship, which might make the police officer more inclined to let you off. And that is something you should know. You often hear people talk about the importance of setting boundaries, letting people know what you will and will not do, and then training them to respect those boundaries. Which all sounds great, until you try to do it. Because for many of us, it's really hard to set boundaries. Not just set them, but stick to them. Which is why Melissa Urban is here. She's an expert on this, and she's author of a book called The Book of Boundaries, End Resentment, Burnout, and Anxiety, and Reclaim Your Time, Energy, Health, and Relationships. Well, that all sounds good. Hi, Melissa. Welcome.

Mike, thank you so much for having me. And so what is a boundary? Let's define the term. What do you mean by boundary? So I describe boundaries as limits that you set around how other people are allowed to engage with you. So they're not about controlling other people or telling other people what to do. Boundaries are about telling other people what you will do in order to keep yourself safe and healthy and make sure that your relationship works for both of you. That sounds so good. That sounds like, why wouldn't everybody want to do that? But you know what I often hear people say when they talk about boundaries is,

I know I should set boundaries, I'm just not good at it. I'm not good at setting boundaries. So what does that mean? Yeah, I think what people are saying and what I'm hearing underneath because if someone says I'm not good at it and I say Oh, okay Here are the exact words that you can share when you want to set that boundary which I do often They still say mmm, but I don't wanna and I think what they're really saying is it's uncomfortable It is uncomfortable to advocate for myself.

It is uncomfortable to perhaps point out, even if I'm being kind about it, the way someone else's behavior has been harmful or disrespectful. It's uncomfortable to say, hey, I need you to show up in this relationship in the way that works for me as well. And here is a need or a limit or a feeling that I haven't yet expressed. And I'm issuing you an invitation to meet me in this. And that feels really uncomfortable.

It's hard for people, especially for women, because we've been told for such a long time, especially when we become moms, that everyone else's needs and comfort should come before our own. Do you find there are areas of life, work, family, whatever, where it's particularly difficult to set these boundaries? I think that's going to vary from person to person.

Some people feel very comfortable advocating for themselves in a professional environment. So at work, they're comfortable saying, oh, I'm still talking. Please let me finish. Or don't text me on the weekend unless it's an emergency. That's my family time. But they may really struggle setting boundaries with parents or in-laws or a romantic partner. For others, work can feel like a really intimidating environment because you really need the job and it's hard to know how that limit is going to be received. So I think it depends on the person and their relationship, but I think everyone definitely has boundary challenges in a variety of relationships. Well, you just said something that I think people struggle with because you had earlier said a few moments ago that you're not telling people

what to do. You're telling people what you'll do or not do. But then you just use the example of don't text me on the weekend. Well, that's telling somebody else what to do. It's not telling them what I'm going to do. You're telling them don't text me. So I love that you brought that up because when we have a limit that we have yet to express to someone else, the kindest and gentlest way to let them know that we have a limit is to issue a request. They're not mind readers. We should not expect them. So I'll give you an example. Your mother-in-law is always coming by the house without calling first, and you haven't said anything, even though this feels incredibly disruptive to you and it makes you really uncomfortable.

The kind thing to do is to say, hey, mother-in-law, just so you know, it's pretty disruptive to us and to the kids if you drop by without calling. It's not always a good time to visit. Would you please call before you come over? Just give us about an hour's notice. Now, yes, that is an invitation to the other person to meet you in that limit. But what you are doing is in a kind and gentle way saying, hey, I've got this limit and you might not have known that it was here. I'm going to share it with you. If your mother-in-law continues to come by without

calling and purposefully disrespects the limit that you have now shared clearly and kindly, you have every prerogative to not answer the door or to answer the door and say, Oh, hi, I'm sorry, you didn't call first. This isn't a good time. We'll have to visit another time. So your boundary is the action you are going to take,

which is I am not going to allow my mother-in-law to enter my home whenever she pleases. But the first time you request that limit, it's going to come in used, I would be less likely to say, when you come over unannounced, it's disruptive. I would leave that part out and just say, when you come over, could you do me a favor and call me first, rather than tell them how what they've done has been upsetting. Yes, and you can absolutely just share your limit. Hey, Carol, when you come by, would you please call first? We'd like about an hour's notice. You absolutely do not have to explain or justify your limit. So my mother-in-law and I have a fantastic relationship. And if she just didn't realize that it was problematic, I might say, hey, when you come over without calling, sometimes it's really hard because we're making dinner and the kids are doing homework and we can't always visit,

so call first. It's really up to you how much you want to choose to share. But I do want to get the point across that the other person does not have to agree with or understand your limit to respect it. Your mother-in-law doesn't get to say, no, it's actually not that disruptive, if you're telling her that it is. So here's what sometimes happens, I think, and well, I've actually seen it with people that, so you set a boundary. This certainly works with family members. So you set a boundary. Don't come over unless you call, using your example example and you get back this, oh, poor me, you don't love me anymore. You don't want me to come by. It's all about me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, that's classic. That's a classic manipulation tactic because this boundary can be uncomfortable for people on the receiving end. When you set a boundary with someone and they react poorly,

that usually means that you are revoking a privilege that they were never meant to have in the first place. Nobody has the privilege. I should not have the privilege of being able to show up on your front door, Mike, and expecting that you invite me into your home just because I want you to. I often say it is not your responsibility to manage other people's reactions to your boundary. They can be upset. And also you can still hold the boundary. And if it helps, you can explain to this person how this limit is going to make your relationship better. If you were to show up on my doorstep and not call first, maybe we let you in, but it's a rushed visit. It's a harried visit. We're not enjoying ourselves as much because

we're feeling like we don't have the time or capacity to sit and connect. If you call first, we'll be prepared for your visit. We'll be excited that you're coming over. The house will be ready. We'll have downtime and we'll be able to visit in a way that feels great for all of us. So that's how this limit is going to make our relationship better. And so when you set this limit on any of these kind of things, is it hard and fast 100% of the time? Or do you give in a little to preserve the relationship? Or is that giving people a hint that, oh, this boundary isn't as clear as we thought? It really is going to depend.

So I always say the best boundaries are flexible, not rigid. So if you get to a point in your life and your kid's life where it's fine for your mother-in-law to drop over without calling, or if it's an emergency and your mom, your mother in law has very important news and she ran by the house to tell you, obviously you would not want to maintain a very rigid boundary in that context. However, I do caution people not to relax a boundary that you know is serving you just

because the other person is giving you pushback. Because once again, that sets a precedent that I am willing to put my own comfort, my own mental health, my own time, my own energy on hold, just to make you comfortable. And people are going to take as much as you're willing to give. Let's go through, because I know you have scripts of like some examples

of how to, because I think that's the hard thing for people is the, what do I say, not upset them and still make it clear what I need to have happen? Yes, that is why I offer scripts, because the how do I say it part can feel really uncomfortable and challenging for people. And even I have to resist the tendency as we just demonstrated to over explain or justify. It's been ingrained in me as a woman and as a mom that I have to have a really good reason for needing to set a limit. So even I have to check myself with my scripts. One of the conversations that I think is very topical that I talk to a lot of people about right now is saying no to alcohol in social situations. Sobriety and sober curious

is on the rise. People participate in dry January, sober October, the whole 30, whatever it might be. And maybe you just want to take a break from drinking for a little while, or you know that it's no longer serving you, but the pressure can be intense in social situations. So I often tell people your first line of defense is a simple no thank you. And it's wild how many people go, I could just say that. Yeah, you can just say no thanks and move along with the conversation. And I'm telling you eight times out of 10, that's going to work. If the person continues to push, are you sure you don't want one or why aren't you drinking? You can just say, no thanks, I'm not feeling it tonight.

No thanks, I'm not drinking right now. No thanks, alcohol and I are taking a break. You keep it very short and very simple and move the conversation along. If the person continues to pressure because maybe they're a little tipsy themselves and are starting to get a little obnoxious, you can say something like, I've said no three times now. I think that's pretty clear. I'm going to go talk to Jenny on the other side of the room. And you remove yourself from that situation

because that is how you hold your boundary. Maybe another one? I think another common boundary scenario is coworkers who text you outside of office hours for things that are absolutely not emergencies. And again, I think work boundaries can be challenging because you feel like you should be kind of on the clock, especially if you're talking to your boss, but you have every right to, and your company's HR policies probably protect your work-life balance. So the first time it

happens, a boss or a co-worker texts or calls outside of office hours, you can reply to the text and say, by the way, please don't text or call outside of office hours. This is my family time. If it's not an emergency, please send me an email and I'll respond the next morning. If it happens again, I would recommend you not respond to the text or phone call this time. And the next morning when you go into the office, say, hey, I got your text last night. Just a reminder to please not text or call if it's my family time. I'm serious about protecting that. Let's talk about those spreadsheets. And if again, the coworker or even your manager continues to

text or call, I've heard stories about bosses calling people on their honeymoons and on their vacations, then it's a matter of putting down in writing to your boss and their supervisor, and maybe even HR, I've requested several times that you not contact me after hours. I need to protect my family time and my family space. Let's talk about, you know, let's talk about how we can figure out how you can communicate with me in a non-emergent way that does not disturb my family time. So you're at this point kind of elevating the situation. We're talking about how to set boundaries with other people, and we're getting advice from Melissa Urban.

She's an expert on the topic. The name of her book is The Book of Boundaries. This episode is brought to you by Melissa and Doug. Wooden puzzles and building toys for problem solving and arts and crafts for creative thinking, Melissa and Doug makes toys that help kids take on the world. Because the way they play today shapes who they become tomorrow. Melissa and Doug, the play is pretend, the skills are real. Look for Melissa and Doug wherever you shop for toys. This winter, take a trip to Tampa on Porter Airlines.

Enjoy the warm Tampa Bay temperatures and warm Porter hospitality on your way there. All Porter fares include beer, wine, and snacks, and free fast-streaming Wi-Fi on planes with no middle seats. And your Tampa Bay vacation includes good times, relaxation, and great Gulf Coast weather. Visit flyporter.com and actually enjoy economy. So, Melissa, how often does it happen, just from talking to people about this topic, when you set a boundary the first time that it gets ignored? Because you've never had this boundary before that people go, yeah, okay, fine. But they just walk right all over it anyway.

I'm going to say, Mike, that the opposite usually happens. And I always encourage people, go into these boundary conversations, assuming that the person you are speaking with just didn't realize that you had a limit there and wants to respect it because they care about you and they care about your relationship. More times than I can recall, I'll give you an example. I had a boundary I needed to set with my mom before she came to visit. She was flying out from New Hampshire. And I said to my sister, oh, I'm going to have to say this thing to mom. And she's not going to like it. She's going to be really upset. She's going to make her face like she's sucking on a lemon. And my sister interrupted me and said, you don't know that. that you don't know that give her the benefit of the doubt don't tell yourself a story about how it's

going to go so i get on the phone with my mom and we're talking and i share this limit and she goes oh okay and the conversation moved on and that was such a powerful lesson for me go into these conversations assuming the best and have strategies to know how to navigate pushback if it does occur. So something happens, especially in families sometimes, where there's this unspoken, unwritten rule. And so using your example, your mother-in-law stops by whenever she wants and doesn't call ahead. But you ask her to watch the kids at a moment's notice when you need to run out. And so, you know, it goes both ways. Now, if you set your boundary where she has to call, well, maybe she's going to set her boundary and say, well, you know, you just really can't drop

the kids off anytime you want. You're going to have to give me 24 hours notice. Ooh, I love this example. So other people's boundaries are not your business. And it's really hard to know the motivation behind a boundary. So in your example, maybe your mother-in-law says, wow, it didn't occur to me that I could say to my daughter-in-law, hey, Melissa, it's actually kind of disruptive when you just drop the kids off without notice. Unless it's an emergency, can you call and make sure I'm free first? I didn't realize I could do that, but she's doing that and I see how it makes

our visits better. I'm going to share this boundary with her too. It sounds the same for your mother-in-law to say, well, she set a limit with me. Fine. I'm going to tell her she can't bring the kids over unless she calls first. You're not going to know the motivation for that boundary. So I always say, assume the best. Assume that when people make a request of you, that it is a healthy limit coming from the self and it's going to improve the relationship and then look for patterns. If the only time this person sets a boundary with you is after you've set a boundary with them, or if it doesn't feel like a boundary,

if they say, instead of saying, oh, I don't have capacity to talk right now, can I call you in an hour? They just give you the silent treatment for three days. That feels more manipulative. And those patterns can be a red flag that it's not a healthy communication pattern. If you're somebody who hasn't set a lot of boundaries and you say, well, you know, Melissa said I should set these boundaries.

So I'm going to start setting boundaries that people are a little offended perhaps because, well, what is, where is this coming from? Well, we could always stop by or we could always do this with them. And now we have to do it this other way. What's going on? Yes. So I think that's a perfectly appropriate reaction. My sister is always bringing her dogs over when she comes to visit. And I don't love dogs. And my son is allergic. And they shed all over the place. And they're not very well behaved. And finally, I say, hey, sister, when you come over for dinner next week,

please leave the dogs at home, or we can put them in the backyard, but I would rather they not be in the house anymore. She's gonna say, well, you used to let them in the house all the time. And I think an appropriate response would be, I did. And I'll be honest, it always made me uncomfortable, and I just didn't say anything.

And that was making me feel kind of resentful. And it was spilling into how we spent our dinner together. So for me, I've decided it's better just to speak up clearly and ask for what I need. And I think that's going to make our relationship and our visits far stronger and better. Oh, that's gold. That's golden right there yeah i love that that's just like how can you argue with that exactly yeah i mean i think it's i think in the spirit of vulnerability it's okay to say i haven't said anything for a long time and that's on me that's not on you and i've been feeling resentful and angry and frustrated because of it. And I think it's far kinder for you and our relationship that I just speak up. People listening to this ought to go back, hit the back button, write that down and

post it on the wall because that could be used in so many situations with so many people. And it's so benign. I mean, it's clear, but it i mean it's it's clear but it doesn't it shouldn't rattle anybody's cage yeah and it's the truth it is the god's honest truth there was this limit that i was uncomfortable in sharing it and that was doing both of us a disservice and i'm committing to clearer kinder communication for the good of our relationship. Yeah. So talk about, and that's a good example of drinking, setting boundaries with yourself. Like, okay, tonight I'm not going to drink. And then you do, and you think, oh God, why did I do that? Or, you know, I'm not going to call Susie. And then you call her because you're lonely or what, you know what I mean? Like you set your own internal boundary and you cross the line. I know self-boundaries are an often overlooked category. We often think

about boundaries with other people, but setting boundaries with ourselves can immediately buy us back time and energy and mental health and capacity and physical space. And the good news is that it only relies on one person to hold that boundary. We don't need anybody else to cooperate. The hard part is that if we set a boundary with ourselves, I'm not going to text my ex. I know how that would go. I know it wouldn't feel good. It would send me down like a bad path. I'm not going to text. And then we do, like what's going to happen? Nobody's going to come out of the sky and slap our hand. We have to think about a different strategy for self-boundaries. It's not just about the instant gratification of the moment. Okay, I'm going to text my ex because in this moment,

I'm going to feel better. I like to think about what's at risk if I don't hold this boundary, and what freedoms will this boundary bring me if I do hold it? So if I text my ex, what's at risk? I'm going to be down the rabbit hole again. I'm going to be feeling bad about myself. I'm going to be wondering if we made the biggest mistake. I'm going to be beating myself up. It's going to just lead me down a really bad mental health path. And that's going to ruin the rest of my morning, the rest of my day, maybe the rest of my weekend. If I hold this boundary with myself and I don't text my ex, I will be free to continue to move

on in the healing process and my journey, to continue to enjoy other aspects of my life, like my friends and my hobbies. I'll be free to spend the rest of my day feeling good about myself and feeling confident that I did what was right for future me. So when you reframe it that way, it's not just about picking up the phone. It's about what's at risk and what freedoms will come to me. And then I also talk about automating that boundary too. So if you block your ex, it's going to be a lot harder to text them. As much as you can do to make that boundary more automatic, I highly recommend doing that too. Lastly, talk about your boundary relationship golden rule.

And it goes like what? Say what you mean and expect your partner to do the same. And I think this clear, kind communication is the absolute underpinning of any boundary conversation you want to have. So when your spouse says, hey, do you mind if I go out for drinks after work? And you're thinking to yourself, oh, I have so much to do with the kids.

I'm so tired. I just want to have like one family dinner together. I was hoping that you would come home and relieve me. And you go, sure. And then they go out because you've said sure. And then you spend the rest of the night seething and mad. And then they come home and you explode. How could you have gone out? Don't you know how much stuff we have to do? And they're super confused because you said sure. And you've spent the last two hours seething at them. And all of this could have been solved if you just communicated

clearly and kindly. Your spouse says, can I go out after work? Are you cool with that? And you go, you know, I would actually really appreciate if you stayed home tonight. I've got this, this, and this to do, and I could really use help. Or yes, could you be home by eight so that you can help me with bedtime routine? And then your spouse says, yes, I can do that. They trust that you are now taking responsibility for your own feelings and needs, I can do that. They trust that you are now taking responsibility for your own feelings and needs, and they are not gonna walk in to a storm of anger and resentment.

You trust that when they say, yes, I'll be home by eight, they mean it. They're like, okay, cool, thanks so much. I'll be home by eight to help with the kids. And you're not watching the clock or tick, tick, tick, or reminding them every five minutes. It's an absolute game changer when it comes to communication within relationships,

and it makes setting and holding any boundary easier. Well, now when people think about and talk about setting boundaries, they'll have a better idea of what it means, how to do it, and how to make it stick. I've been speaking with Melissa Urban. She is an expert on setting boundaries. Her book is called The Book of Boundaries and Resentment, Burnout and Anxiety and Reclaim Your Time, Energy, Health and Relationships. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Melissa. I appreciate you coming on.

Thanks so much for having me, Mike. I've loved our conversation. Metrolinks and Crosslinks are reminding everyone to be careful as Eglinton Crosstown LRT train testing is in progress. Please be alert as trains can pass at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals. Be careful along our tracks and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. Mama, look at me. Vroom, vroom.

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I'll just take the car. Don't wait up, okay? Kids go from 0 to 18 in no time, don't they? At Intact Insurance, we insure your car so you can enjoy the ride. Visit Intact.ca or talk to your broker. Conditions apply. Every day in your life, you're faced with a lot of decisions. A lot of small decisions, sometimes big decisions, and sometimes huge, life-altering decisions. And those are the ones that can be downright scary and hard to make. And here with some help is Dr. Neil Shortland.

He is an expert on military decision-making. He's worked for the Department of Defense and the National Institute for Justice, Hi, Neil. Thanks for coming on. Hi, Mike. Thank you for having me. So some life decisions are certainly harder than other life decisions, but I suspect most people feel they're pretty good at making decisions in their life. They may not always make the right decision, but that they feel pretty confident about the process. Well, I think it's really interesting, your opening phrasing. I would actually argue from our work that most people don't make big decisions. And I think that's what our work's really about. One of the things we studied kind

of in our psychology is the psychology of decision inertia and the tendency we all have to kind of make or not make big decisions either at all or, you know, in the right time. Think how many people kind of, you know, stay in careers without changing, stay in relationships without changing, stay on the same path without changing. And so why is it that we stay in careers we shouldn't stay in, stay in relationships we should? Is it just, you know, fear of the unknown it creates less waves to just leave things as they are i mean sometimes i mean you know there's no there's no denying that humans have this you know in psychology we call it a status quo bias right so so you know like you said not not wanting to make too many waves not wanting to change things not wanting to lose

things that we already have but another reason and i think this is one of the ones that we really look at and talk about in our work, is not knowing what the right choice is. When we talk about indecision and the psychology of big decisions, you know, one of the things we can talk about is decision avoidance, right, which is avoiding even wanting to make the decision or thinking about a decision. You know, I think about it later. I think about it later. But one of the biggest ones is what we call decision inertia, which is just trying to make a decision. You know, I know I should change. I know I should do something. I know I should make a choice. But really being unable to know which of the choices you face is the right one. And I think that's

really where a lot of big decisions kind of center on. There is no clear right answer. There is no clear better choice. And so they ruminate and they constantly bounce between the two options and they never commit to one or the other. When people do make decisions, if you were to poll people, do you think people think they make good decisions or do they think they suck at it? When it comes to people evaluating their own decisions, I think the big issue that a lot of people have is they get over-focused on outcomes of decisions, you know, did the decision result in a good thing or a bad thing? But that's not necessarily the best way to think about your decision. Sometimes the best way to think about your decisions is did I engage in a good decision making process? Did I? Did I weigh my options correctly? Did I did I

decide in the right amount of time? Did I follow my values or my beliefs in the decision that I made? And that's something we learned from our research in the real world. I've interviewed people who have made terrible decisions in terms of the process. And they would be the first to tell you that the decision they made was a terrible one. However, the outcome was fine. They got lucky, no negative or ill consequences occurred. And then I've interviewed people who have made really, really good decisions in the most difficult environments. And because of luck or chance or happenstance or whatever it was, you know, the outcome just was an awful one. And so I think for a lot of people, we get conflated

on was it a good decision is dictated by did we like what happened? And I think for a lot of people, we get conflated on was it a good decision is dictated by did we like what happened? And I think that's different to did we like who we were and how we navigated that decision and what that decision says about us and what we value. Well, because you can never know if you, you know, it's the road not taken. You could have made a different decision and that could have been even worse. So you'll never know if this was the better choice because you don't know what would have happened if you made another choice. Exactly. And I mean, we spoke with a, I remember doing this, you know, starting off our research a few years ago and we, you know, we studied the soldier population quite a lot. And so I was speaking to members of the VA and one of them said, the decisions that we often talk about, these kinds of ones with high

uncertainty, uncertain outcomes, you called them shoulda, woulda, coulda decisions. Because you always look back and it's like, I should have done this. I would have done this. I could have done this. And you just never know. And that's we we talk so much about being driven by the right process and by the right values because then even if it isn't the best outcome you at least were guided by something that you believe in and that you agree with and that i find is is is protective you know protective just in case you change career and that new career you take isn't the one you wanted, or you leave a relationship and you're not immediately happy. You know, it's about being guided by the right things inside rather than focusing on the, on just the outcome. Cause,

cause as you say, you can never guarantee it. Something I heard someone say a long time ago that I've always taken to heart is that when it comes to a decision you make it isn't necessarily the choice you make it's your commitment to the choice once you've made it and if you're always looking back going gee I wonder what if then that's not a good decision-making absolutely I mean with that I mean there's so many elements of that but I I mean, you've got, I mean, the biggest one would be, you know, you've got a self-fulfilling prophecy. You know, if you commit to a decision, but you, you're kind of not wholeheartedly pursuing it and you're, you're wondering if it's,

if the other option was better and that maybe you made the wrong choice, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna create a perception or a world in which you just convince yourself that that view was wrong. The other issue, and I think this is big in the life decisions that we make, is often when you make decisions, big decisions, you know, those big turning point moments, those big forks in the road, it isn't as if the minute you make the decision, you know, happiness and joy and tranquility, you know, come down upon you and everything is wonderful. A lot of difficult decisions. They have growing periods. They have they have challenges. They have hardships. You know, all of those stories of the great innovators of the world, the great, you know, the great visionaries when they changed careers and when they, you know when they took on new risks and started

new companies. They don't succeed on day one. They succeed in year five. And so if you're not fully committed, often we find that people don't persist through those early difficulties and actually see where that decision was going to take them. I don't know, whoever gave you that very, very wise piece of advice, I wholeheartedly agree with. Sometimes it seems that, to me anyway, that when I see somebody who's struggling with a decision, the choice is very clear to me because it's not my decision. But sometimes my own decisions are much more difficult because I'm too close to it. I don't know. And for example, I know people that make a decision to change jobs and they get in the new job and they're just as unhappy.

So they change jobs again. Well, so maybe it isn't the job, but they don't see that. They just complain that the job sucks. But maybe it's them and they can't see it. So on the job point, I mean, it's really interesting that you say that because one of the studies that we've done is we were really interested in why is it some people find it much easier to make, you know, even difficult decisions, right? Why is it some people find it easier to make difficult decisions while others really struggle? And not only do they struggle with big decisions, they struggle with every decision. And so we did a study and we measured this personality trait

called maximization. And what it measures is the personal tendency to want the best out of everything. A lot of difficult decisions in life, You can't have a million dollar salary and be CEO of your own startup company while also being, you know, doing a nine to five, being home every day and never missing a meal time if you have, you know, young children in the family, right? Often we can't have everything and that's why decisions require sacrifice. Maximization is this personality tendency to want everything and to really struggle with the idea that you can't have everything. And we've done studies with everyday people, with soldiers, with police officers, and they consistently show that when someone is a maximizer, and other people's research has shown this long before we did as well. You struggle with decisions. You find them harder. You are less committed when you choose. You are less happy once you've chosen and you're them. I think all of us struggle with our own decisions, you know, to your point of other people's decisions seem easier. I mean, you know, I think there's many decisions that I found really, really difficult. And when I look back,

you know, a month later, I can't believe it wasn't as clear cut as it is now. I can't believe I lost weeks of my life trying to make a decision that now seems so straightforward. So I think that's natural in all of us. But there's definitely key personality traits and key bits of who we are that make decisions really difficult. In general, do you think that making decisions is better done with help or alone? I think it's always good to get other people's advice and those you trust and those you love to weigh in and but accepting, you know, that their opinion may differ from yours. And there's good there's good in that. I do think that we should always in most in most decisions, and we're talking, you know, we're talking the personal decisions here, the career, the love, the life, the things that we kind of control ourselves or control with a partner.

It is always important to remember that often at the end of the day, you are the one that has to decide. And what a lot of people can often do, and a lot of the people I see struggle with decision making, it's they're often going to everyone for their advice. And their opinion changes with whatever advice it is from the person they just got. And they kind of end up in that stage I mentioned earlier, you know, that kind of redundant deliberation of constantly listening and constantly getting advice, but never just taking ownership of the problem and saying, you know what, at the end of the day, I just have to choose. I have to sacrifice something. I just have to commit to a decision, believe in it, and go for it. Talk about the phrase that you sometimes hear that not deciding is itself a decision. Oh, absolutely. I think my extension of that phrase

would be, I think, often not deciding is the worst decision. You know, what we see there often is that people fail to make a decision. And in failing to make any decision, they are choosing to do nothing. And often doing nothing is the worst thing that you can do when responding to something, you know, that requires, you know, a timely response. That's kind of where that psychology of decision inertia comes from. But in our own lives, the absence of action is still an action. And often it's the most damaging action, especially if you know that you want to decide, because you're accepting status quo. You're accepting that things will stay the way they are until some kind of external force operates against you. And so I think in most of the cases of bad decision-making,

and even those around us that we love and we look at and we want the best for and we want them to live their fullest lives, often it's the absence of their decisions that we see. And when we admire people and when we look around the world at people we want to emulate and we admire, it's their decisions that they've made. And sometimes they've made 10 decisions, seven of them have been bad decisions, and three of them have been good decisions. But it's always that decision-making ability that we admire.

And that's why I know when people talk about decision-making, they talk about it cognitively, you know, the process of choosing A or B, they often forget the behavioral step, you know, the behavioral step of implementing the choice that you've made. And we have a whole part of our model called implementation failure, which is where people know what the choice is, but they still don't do it. How many people do we know that know they need to leave their job, know they need to leave a relationship, know they need to move house or move or change something in their current world that's bringing them down. And yet five years later, they still have not

done it. And that's the big thing sometimes with decision making, it is cognitive. But in order to bring a decision into the world, it's behavioral, you actually have to do it. You sometimes hear people say in talking about a decision, I hope I make the right decision. And the implication there is that there is a right decision. But sometimes any decision might work. And sometimes all your choices might be horrible. You just have to choose the one that's least horrible. But there isn't necessarily a right decision.

Exactly. And I think it's also it's such a key part of that sentence is what's the right decision for me in this moment? And accepting that that may not be the right decision for everyone else and in your situation, and it may not be the right decision for everyone who's observing and viewing your decision and your situation. You know, an example I'll give is, you know, my wife and I, we were engaged in 2018 to be married in 2020. And as we all know, there was a large disruption to the wedding industry in 2020.

And a lot of people handled that decision very differently. Some people delayed the wedding, delayed their plans, put it off and got married a year later, two years later, whatever it may be. Some people got married via Zoom, just them and their loved one in quarantine, with everyone there virtually and all the different flavors in between. And I was well aware, my wife and I did a 2020 kind of virtual Zoom wedding. And I was well aware that for many people on that call and attending that wedding, that they would all have made a different decision and they all would have delayed their weddings. And many of our friends did delay their wedding. And so sometimes I think with a lot of these big decisions we face in life, it's about understanding that the only

decision is the decision that's right to you. It's most of these are deeply personal decisions. And often that doesn't lead to unanimous agreement and it doesn't lead to, you know, unanimous happiness. Um, you know, there were people who were, you know, very unhappy that the wedding wasn't, you know, in person and later in life. And there are elements of that, that we, we still regret, but, but in the, in the grand scheme of things, we did what was right for us in that moment. And that, I think, is what made it a good decision. So if you can kind of sum this up to somebody who's looking at making a big decision, like what's step one, two, and three to get your head in the game? Step one, two, and three to get your head in the game. So step one, know when you have to decide.

Whenever we make big decisions, we often forget to think about time, the time question. Know precisely when you need to make a decision if there is a time limit. Because it may be, if you don't think about that, you may make a decision far too fast without really using the time that you have or far too slow, by which point you've missed the window of opportunity. Or if you don't put any time limit on it at all, you're just likely to fall into that decision inertia, decision making trap of kind of just empty vacuous space. So the first thing is, is have an understanding of the time. The second thing is having an understanding of yourself. We all have various personality quirks and personality skills, and they don't all equally play out well in decisions.

And so knowing who we are and what our personality traits are is a big difference. I always joke, we talked about maximizers earlier. I always joke that I would want a maximizer to plan my missions and a satisficer to carry them out. There are times when it is great to be a maximizer. You're buying a house, you're potentially changing jobs, you're buying a car. These are great times to be a maximizer because you can maximize. But there are times when you can't be a maximizer and when you have to really be able to sacrifice something and be okay with it, right? That's what a satisficer does. You know, finding love, starting a business, changing, completely pivoting and changing degrees.

You know, nothing's going to be perfect, but you need to satisfy and satisfy on the right things. So the second thing is know yourself, know just your tendencies, know your personality, and just be aware of what your negative habit may be when you make your own decisions. That's the second point. And the third is know what matters. And if you're looking at a decision, try and unpack what the really important parts of it are. If I'm pursuing path A, what am I really pursuing? Is it a new job? But is it glory? Is it my career? Is it my self-esteem? Is it my need to be the very best at what I do? And if I'm not chasing that job, what am I staying for?

And so just know what you are dealing with so that if you choose path A, you know what you're sacrificing on path B. And if you choose path B, you know what you're sacrificing on path A. So if I were to face any decision tomorrow, they are the three things I would think about. I would think about my time. I would think about myself, my personality. And I would think about what matters. And I would use those three things then to the best of my ability to do just the very best that I can. And I think with all decisions, that's all you can do, the very best that you could in that moment. Well, everybody has to make decisions.

And I think it's important that people understand the process and what goes into it and how you can make better decisions. And so I appreciate you talking about this. I've been speaking with Dr. Neil Shortland, and the name of his book is Decision Time, How to Make the Choices Your Life Depends On. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks for being here, Neil. No, thank you, Michael. Thank you so much. If you've got an extra set of clean sheets in the linen closet, put them on your bed before you go to sleep tonight,

and you'll probably sleep better. A National Sleep Foundation poll found 73% of us fall asleep faster and sleep sounder on clean sheets. Michael Bruce, author of The Sleep Doctor's Diet Plan, explains the phenomenon this way. He says it's soothing to know the place you're about to spend the next 6 to 8 hours is clean and well cared for. To really enhance your dream time,

give your clean sheets a tumble in the dryer or maybe a spritz with a scented linen spray. The fresh aroma will encourage relaxation and help relax the muscles. And that is something you should know. You know, ours is a competitive business, the podcast business, and there are literally millions of podcasts

screaming out trying to get listeners. And we do know that one of the best ways to attract listeners to a podcast is personal recommendations by friends. So if you would like to help us grow our audience, all you have to do is share this podcast, tell someone else about it, have them listen, and like magic, our numbers grow. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug addicted teenager,

but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent VB Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister

than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.