Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: Backstories of Our Favorite Christmas Movies & How to Use Sarcasm Effectively

Episode Date: December 23, 2023

When you have a bad cough, prescription cough syrup is often the remedy of choice – particularly the kind with codeine. But what if chocolate works better? Seriously. This episode begins by discussing the best way to stifle that urge to cough. https://www.tasteofhome.com/article/chocolate-can-fight-coughs-better-than-some-cold-medicine/ Do you have a favorite Christmas movie? Maybe you like White Christmas or It’s a Wonderful Life or maybe Home Alone? Well, whatever it is, I suspect you will hear it discussed during my conversation Jeremy Arnold. Jeremy is a film historian who, along with Turner Classic movies, has put together a wonderful book called Christmas in the Movies: 30 Classics To Celebrate the Season. (https://amzn.to/3GzDZ3S). Listen and you will hear some of the backstories about many of the most iconic Christmas movies of all time. When you think about it, sarcasm is a really weird way to try to get your point across. Still, it can be extremely effective. It can also affect people in interesting and unusual ways that aren’t quite so obvious. Penny Pexman, a professor of psychology at the University of Calgary studies sarcasm and she joins me to offer some wonderful insight into how using sarcasm impacts your relationships and interactions as well as who tends to be more sarcastic and why. Penny has a coloring book for kids to help them understand sarcasm called Sydney Gets Sarcastic. You can download it for free at: https://ucalgary.ca/child-infant-learning-development/home-0 Could your Christmas tree be causing your allergy symptoms to flare up? IT is quite possible. Listen as I explain what the problem is and how best to deal with it. https://www.entandallergyspecialists.com/uncategorized/can-christmas-trees-cause-allergy-symptoms/ PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! MasterClass makes a meaningful gift this season! .Right now you can get two Memberships for the price of one at https://MasterClass.com/SOMETHING PrizePicks is a skill-based, real-money Daily Fantasy Sports game that's super easy to play. Go to https://prizepicks.com/sysk and use code sysk for a first deposit match up to $100 Spread holiday cheer this season with a new phone! Get any phone free, today at UScellular. Built for US. Terms apply. Visit https://UScellular.com for details.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Download June's Journey now on Android or iOS. Today on Something You Should Know, what's better at stopping a cough, codeine or chocolate? Then some interesting stories about your favorite holiday movies, including White Christmas, Home Alone, and It's a Wonderful Life. It's sometimes erroneously stated that it was a big box office bomb. It was nominated for several Oscars.

A year or two later, it did win a technical Oscar for its inventive use of fake snow in this film, which became an industry standard. Also, how your Christmas tree could be making you sneeze and a strange story of sarcasm. Because when you think about it, it's a pretty odd way to communicate. Because we're taught that the purpose of communication is to convey your thoughts and feelings. And sarcasm is this paradox because it's deliberately saying not just something different from what you actually mean,

but the actual opposite. All this today on Something You Should Know. This episode is brought to you by Melissa and Doug. Wooden puzzles and building toys for problem solving and arts and crafts for creative thinking. Melissa and Doug makes toys that help kids take on the world. Because the way they play today shapes who they become tomorrow. Melissa and Doug, the play is pretend, the skills are real. Look for Melissa and Doug wherever you shop for toys.

Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. And here we are again, another episode of Something You Should Know. You know, I love a problem. Makes you wonder how big a problem this problem could be when the solution to the problem is chocolate. And the next time you get a cough or maybe a little tickle in your throat,

skip the tea and lemon, maybe even skip the cough syrup, and try chocolate. Chocolate may be the perfect treatment for a cough. According to a study conducted at Hull University in the UK, they found that cough sufferers who ate chocolate recovered faster than those taking traditional cough medicine. How? Well, first of all, chocolate itself is more sticky than traditional cough syrup. That means it's better at coating your throat and preventing the irritation that causes you to cough. Chocolate also contains something called theobromine. And in another study, it was shown that theobromine is better at suppressing the urge to cough than codeine, a narcotic in prescription cough medicines.

Now, sipping a mug of cocoa might sound good, but that isn't actually going to help your cough. The research indicates that cough medicine with cocoa is the most helpful. But I don't think that's a thing. Cough medicine with cocoa in it, or if it is, it's got to be pretty hard to find. So until that's more available, you should try slowly sucking on a piece of good quality dark chocolate. That will allow the candy to coat your throat and give you very fast cough relief.

And that is something you should know. Every year between Thanksgiving and Christmas, you have the chance to watch a lot of Christmas movies. They're everywhere. They're on TV, they're on streaming services, or maybe you even bought the DVDs to a couple of your favorite Christmas movies. And if you're like me, I suspect, you really look forward to watching some of these movies because maybe they have a special meaning, or they bring back memories, or...

Or I don't know what it is, but there's just something about holiday movies. Jeremy Arnold is a film historian, commentator, and author who, along with Turner Classic Movies, has released a great book called Christmas in the Movies, 30 Classics to Celebrate the Season. And he's here to talk about some of the backstories and some of the interesting little facts about some of your favorite holiday movies. Hi, Jeremy. Welcome. Thanks, Mike, for having me. Great to be here. So what do you think it is about Christmas movies, particularly the real classic Christmas movies? What is it that makes them so universally appealing?

When we see a movie at Christmastime that has a Christmas element, I think we're primed already by the season, by society to want to accept characters transforming, to want to see the season win out in the end somehow and resolve a story with love and kindness and compassion. Those types of things that we all want so much at Christmas. So one of the things, in fact, I was just talking about this with someone the other day that there are movies that are considered Christmas movies that in my view, aren't really Christmas movies like Die Hard. Okay. Die Hard has become a Christmas movie in many people's opinion, but I don't think of it as a Christmas movie just because, you know, it's violent and people get shot and die and things blow up. I mean, it's not very Christmassy in the traditional warm, gushy, Christmassy sense. Well, I would push back a little bit against that.

I do defend Die Hard as a Christmas movie. The reason I think Die Hard is a Christmas movie is because it's an action film that takes conventions of Christmas movies and transforms them into action variations. And Die Hard, it's an action film with violence and killing and so forth, but it's not cruel or unpleasant. It's actually a very joyous, joyful movie. There's a scene where the thieves finally break into this vault they've been trying to open for half the film. And the way the movie presents it, it's as if they're opening the world's biggest Christmas present. And when they finally see what's inside, all this treasure, you know, it's the greatest

present they could want. And we hear Ode to Joy on the soundtrack. And it's a very Christmassy moment. You know, it's a scene that is transformed into a Christmas scene through the craft of filmmaking. So I do think Die Hard qualifies. So before I tell you my favorite Christmas movie, what is your favorite Christmas movie and why? It's a Wonderful Life. That might be a rather obvious choice, but you know, it really holds up. And I think for me, it comes down to, well, first of all, the level of craftsmanship. I mean, Frank Capra was one of the top directors in Hollywood at the time. And it's just a beautifully made film, the writing, the cinematography, the editing, music. It even has some singing in it. And it turns into something of a horror movie during the alternate reality sequence. And that is important

because it speaks to the idea that Christmastime is not just about the positives. It's also about negatives. We all feel, to varying degrees at some point, despair, despondence, wistfulness, reflecting on loved ones who are no longer with us, to time of reflection and taking stock. And Christmas movies that do explore the so-called dark side of the holiday are quite honest. And it has a joyful ending. It's a wonderful life, but there's an awful lot of trauma along the way for the characters and the audience even. And I do think that has made it really hold up. And yet it wasn't much of a hit when it came out, right? No, it wasn't. You know, it's sometimes erroneously stated that it was a big box office bomb.

That's really not true either. It just didn't do that well. And it was a last minute decision to release it in December 1946 at Christmastime. It was only because the studios planned Christmas release. Sinbad the Sailor ran into some delays and they needed something to fill the slot. It's a Wonderful Life wasn't supposed to open until January 1947. And in fact, that is when it went wide. It might sound strange, but they didn't really look at Christmas elements in movies dictating release as strongly as we do today,

where it's really now an industry. It was nominated for several Oscars. A year or two later, it did win a technical Oscar for its inventive use of fake snow. They invented a new type of snow to use in this film, which became an industry standard for several decades. But it was really in the 70s and 80s when it started showing on television ad nauseum that audiences rediscovered it and rescued it from oblivion. And when you watch that movie in those scenes that show the main street of Bedford Falls, that's a set, right? And they made that set for that movie. Indeed, they did.

It was one of the biggest sets ever built for a Hollywood picture at the time. It was extremely big in the summertime. And much of the film was shot on 90 degree days, which is actually a pretty good endorsement of the fake snow that they use, because it looks quite real. Well, it's interesting that you say that, that many of the scenes were shot on 90 degree days, because when I look at that movie, when I see him in the snow and on the bridge, I can feel the cold. I can feel how cold it is. And yet you're saying that it probably was 90 plus degrees. Yeah. And you can also notice Jimmy Stewart sweating and it's meant to be sweating with, you know, angst and fear, but I think he was helped by the real heat of the moment. My favorite Christmas movie, and I think it's because it was my mother's and she always used

to watch it, is A Christmas Carol with Alistair Sim. And to me, he is the quintessential Ebenezer Scrooge. But I was surprised to read that that wasn't much of a hit when it came out either. It really wasn't. And in fact, it was meant to have a big grand premiere in New York at Radio City Music Hall. And when the organizers of that event finally actually saw the film, they saw that it was so bleak. And really, it turns into a horror movie even more than It's a Wonderful Life at a certain point, that they just thought they couldn't really, you know, tote it as a Christmas movie. And so they canceled that premiere. I guess it just had a more ordinary premiere somewhere else. But it, too, like It's a Wonderful Life, it didn't really catch on until the 70s when it was shown on television all the time in America. Let's talk about Meet Me in St. Louis, because to me, that's not much of a Christmas movie.

But Judy Garland sings Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas, which kind of makes it a Christmas movie. But what do you think? Well, this is where it gets interesting in the issue of definition. Most of Meet Me in St. Louis is not set at Christmas time. The whole story takes place over a one year period, and it's divided into chapters by seasons. And in fact, there's a great Halloween sequence. You could actually call it a Halloween movie for that. But the Christmas sequence, it does take off about the last 25 minutes or so of the picture, which is not insignificant. And you have Judy Garland, as you say, singing Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas.

To me, that's enough to make it a Christmas classic, because that is one of the great iconic Christmas songs. Let's talk about White Christmas. And, you know, I don't know which is more famous, which is more well-known, the movie White Christmas or the song White Christmas. The trajectory of the song White Christmas is really fascinating. It was first introduced in Holiday Inn. Well, I mean, it had first been

introduced to the public a few months before on Christmas Day in 1941, when Bing Crosby performed it on the radio. And then in 1942, he sings it in Holiday Inn to Marjorie Reynolds. And the way it's presented is as a romantic ballad. It's linked to romance and love. Sure, the lyrics still have wistfulness and longing and nostalgia in them, but it's presented through a romantic prism. By the time of White Christmas, a dozen years later, it's not linked to romance at all. It's 100% linked to nostalgia and longing for home. And we first hear it in the opening of the film when Bing Crosby is performing it on the battlefield to troops during World War Two. And then at the end of the film, it's performed again, in a stage setting, to an audience in the film of veterans, who presumably were even in the opening scene during World War II. And so you have this, you have layers of nostalgia.

It's almost a meta quality because you have veterans in the 50s hearing the song and remembering hearing it during World War II in the 40s when it made them think of their home life. So now they're sort of remembering all of that at once. And, of course, the audience in 1954 was filled with veterans. It was only a decade after the war had ended. And that is why I think this film became by far the biggest commercial hit of 1954. I know there's an interesting backstory to this movie that Danny Kaye wasn't even supposed to be in it. And I want you to tell that story in just a moment.

I'm speaking with Jeremy Arnold, a film historian and author of Christmas in the Movies, 30 Classics to Celebrate the Season. Metrolinks and Crosslinks are reminding everyone to be careful as Eglinton Crosstown LRT train testing is in progress. Please be alert as trains can pass at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals. Be careful along our tracks, and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. This is an ad for better help. Welcome to the world.

Please, read your personal owner's manual thoroughly. In it, you'll find simple instructions for how to interact with your fellow human beings and how to find happiness and peace of mind. Thank you, and have a nice life. Unfortunately, life doesn't come with an owner's manual. That's why there's BetterHelp Online Therapy. Connect with a credentialed therapist by phone, video, or online chat. Visit BetterHelp.com to learn more. That's BetterHelp.com. So Jeremy, talk about the casting of White Christmas and how Danny Kaye got to be in the movie. White Christmas was conceived as a

way to reunite Fred Astaire and Bing Crosby in a loose reworking of Holiday Inn. But Fred Astaire declined, and Bing Crosby at first declined as well before he changed his mind. And in the meantime, they offered the Fred Astaire role to Donald O'Connor. O'Connor agreed to do it, but just before production, he became ill because he contracted something called Q fever from working on all these Francis the Talking Mule movies. He actually got this disease from the mule. And so he was replaced by Danny Kaye. And since it was the last minute, Danny Kaye was able to ask for and receive quite a hefty bonus check because the studio needed to start production immediately. So that worked out well for Danny Kaye. And of course, Donald O'Connor

did recover. Thank goodness. Let's fast forward a couple of decades, several decades to Home Alone. I mean, there's a movie that came out, as I recall, it was a hit when it came out. It's still very popular. People love to watch that movie. What do you think is the magic of Home Alone? The magic of Home Alone, I think, is the line it skirts between realism and fantasy. You see this so often in Christmas movies. You see it in Miracle on 34th Street. You see it in A Christmas Carol, It's a Wonderful Life, which has this fantasy sequence in it.

And sort of this air of magic about it from the very beginning where we see angels in heaven talking about George Bailey. as fantasy in the way that the Macaulay Culkin character is fending off these dim-witted burglars through a bunch of hilariously cartoonish and brilliant set pieces where he uses the house as a weapon. In fact, Home Alone is kind of like Die Hard in a house with a kid. We get to know all the rooms of this house. We get to know how all the architectural features of this house can be used as a weapon in a comic way. And it actually, you could say, is almost as violent as Die Hard. It's just done through totally cartoonish violence where, you know, we don't – well, we actually do feel the pain, but it doesn't repel us because it's able to stay in that world of comedy. So so strongly. And I also think that like a Christmas story from several years earlier, you know, it's it takes us on a journey through a child's perspective. And that makes it a strong Christmas movie.

There actually aren't a lot of holiday movies that really are centered on kids. I just watched Elf with my boys the other night, and I just love that movie. I like Will Ferrell. I like Bob Newhart. But there's something more I can't quite put my finger on. It's magical. The innocence of it is just real special. Well, yeah, I think the innocence of it is in there. And that's very appealing. But it's tempered with comic cynicism. You know, the James Caan character, his father, you know, not wanting anything to do with this view of the world and of Christmas time. And of course, he transforms.

Transformation is a big part of the history of Christmas movies, thanks to Charles Dickens, I think. It also combines fantasy with reality. I mean, we're in the North Pole and we see elves and Santa and we're in New York City where it's presented realistically. But in the end, the innocent sort of child centered excitement of Christmas, that kind of outlook on Christmas wins out. It's also just funny. I mean, it's great script, brilliantly played by the actors. And that is the first takeaway that any audience

I think would take from that film. It's just how funny it is. Of all the movies that you looked at, which one would you rate as like the most underrated? Like maybe people haven't really seen it much and it's probably worth a look. The one that first comes to mind is my second favorite Christmas movie, and that's Remember the Night. Now, this is a film that is known to real classic movie aficionados. Why it's not known more widely is beyond me, because it stars Fred McMurray and Barbara Stanwyck, who, of course, would co-star in Double Indemnity four years later, which is widely known. Very different film. But it is so funny and heartfelt. He plays a New York prosecuting attorney who is prosecuting Barbara Stanwyck on a shoplifting charge. Christmas time is coming, so the judge delays the case till after the holiday. And when he realizes that she's going

to spend Christmas in jail, he bails her out out of compassion. And then when he finds out that she's from Indiana, where he's from too,, he offers to drive her home to her parents house. She has horrible parents in a horrible house. He has lovely parents in a lovely, warm house. And so he invites her to his house and they slowly start to fall in love. And but after the holiday, he's going to have to still prosecute her. So what's going to happen? It's a story that really blends romance and comedy and drama really well, and it's a real hidden gem, and it's not hard to find. You know, every year I watch or I start to watch Christmas Vacation

because I remember it as being very funny, and every year that I watch it, it just doesn't seem as funny as it used to be. I don't know why. You know, I would hazard that that is a film that is particularly enhanced when you see it with an audience. Because it's that kind of humor and it's infectious. And, you know, yeah, there's a lot of stupid humor in there. Stupid humor isn't necessarily not funny humor. But it's the kind of comedy that if you're in a theater and people are starting to giggle at it, then it sort of gives you license to do the same.

You know what I mean? But if you're watching it at home alone and you're seeing Randy Quaid, you know, with the whole septic sewer storyline. Yeah, you you might not really find it that funny on your own. I do like the film. And the reason I think it is has remained so popular is because the characters are exaggerated versions of familiar characters to us. You know, Randy Quaid as Cousin Eddie. Okay, we hopefully don't have real Cousin Eddie's in our lives that do exactly what he does. But we tend to have the equivalent of a crazy uncle or aunt or distant cousin, someone who's just a little out there and you know, not not quite with his head screwed on right. That is what has kept that movie relevant. And it is, I think, probably the best role Chevy Chase ever played,

just because he is Clark Griswold. I mean, it is hard to imagine anybody else pulling that off as good as Chevy Chase did. Well, one interesting thing about how National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation came together is that John Hughes, who was the writer and producer of all the vacation films, he offered the job of directing to Chris Columbus. And Columbus started directing it, but he and Chevy Chase didn't get along. And at a certain point, Columbus just couldn't go on anymore. So Hughes replaced him with Jeremiah Chechik.

But as a consolation prize, Hughes gave Columbus the chance to direct Home Alone, which was about to start production, which Hughes also wrote and produced. And Home Alone, of course, became, you know, it became what is still the most successful live action comedy in terms of box office adjusted for inflation that Hollywood has released. So that worked out pretty well for everyone. I know a lot of people like the Christmas story movie, Ralphie and his rifle. And it's not a movie I ever got into that much. I've seen it and I never thought it was that special, but a lot of people really like it. I know some TV stations play it repeatedly, like over and over and over again on Christmas. So it certainly has found an audience. I agree with you. As a movie, it's actually a very ordinary film, technically. It's not dissimilar from a television movie of the time, but its characters and its story situations have really resonated. When that film opened, Roger Ebert gave it a very

strong review, and he said something like, either no one's going to see this movie, or millions of people are going to see this movie. And he was right on both counts, because it did not do well at all in theaters. It wasn't even playing anymore. When when Christmas finally came, it had opened in November was barely playing at Christmas time. But then years later, as you say, it started showing on television all the time and it became a true classic. I did want to ask about Miracle on 34th Street because I know it's a lot of people's favorite movie at Christmas time and it's been remade, I think, at least a couple times. And why do you why do you think that's such a classic? I think it's because of its combination of cynicism, realism, sentimentality,

and fantasy. It sort of skirts both sides of a coin. You could say that the film is a fantasy, but there is not one frame of fantasy that is ever shown on screen in the original Miracle on 34th Street. If you believe that this character really is Chris Kringle, is Santa Claus, you see that in your mind, but you don't see him do anything in the film that could not be explained logically in reality. So there's as much of that in the film as there is of little Natalie Wood

slowly starting to believe that this character is Santa Claus. And that back and forth, I think, is sort of the secret of that film. Well, it's fun to talk about these movies and to hear some of the stories and your take on some of them, because, you know, a lot of them feel like old friends that come back every year for Christmas. And to get some insight into that is really interesting. I've been speaking with Jeremy Arnold. He is a film historian and, along with Turner Classic Movies,

has a new book out called Christmas in the Movies, 30 Classics to Celebrate the Season. And there is a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Jeremy. Merry Christmas. Mike, thank you so much. It's been great to talk to you. And I wish you and everyone a very Merry Christmas and a happy holiday season. This winter, take a trip to Tampa on Porter Airlines. Enjoy the warm Tampa Bay temperatures and warm Porter hospitality on your way there.

All Porter fares include beer, wine and snacks and freestreaming Wi-Fi on planes with no middle seats. And your Tampa Bay vacation includes good times, relaxation, and great Gulf Coast weather. Visit flyporter.com and actually enjoy economy. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to, called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of

recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Sarcasm is interesting. It's when you say the opposite of what you mean to make your point, often in an attempt to be funny. And sometimes sarcasm can be very effective, sometimes very biting, sometimes very funny. And I think everybody does it from time to time. But does sarcasm affect your

relationships? Does it affect the dynamic of the conversation? And if it does, how? Penny Paxman is someone who studies sarcasm and the effects it has on people. Penny is professor of psychology at the University of Calgary. Hey, Penny. Welcome to Something You Should Know. Hi, Mike. It's great to be here. So from your perspective as a professor and someone who studies sarcasm, what is it to you? Yeah, so sarcasm is a form of figurative language. It's a type of verbal irony, technically. But it's a particularly intriguing form of

figurative language because it, by definition, involves saying the opposite of what you mean. And why do we use it? Do we have any idea when people started doing it, any kind of history of sarcasm? We know there are references to it in Greek. The term actually comes from the Greek word for, it's a little bit grotesque, but it comes from the term to tear flesh. And so we know there's references to it historically. We can also find examples of it now across languages and across cultures. So it seems to be pervasive. And that raises interesting questions about, you know, what does this device mean about human psychology that we find it so useful?

Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. If sarcasm is strictly an English thing, but you say it's across all languages. People are sarcastic in every language. And so why do you study sarcasm? It is something that to me has been, it's been interesting. It's been something I've been studying since I was a senior undergraduate, actually, in psychology. And I think one of the reasons it's so interesting is because we're taught that the purpose of language, the purpose of communication is to convey your thoughts and feelings to somebody else. And sarcasm is this paradox because it's deliberately saying not just something

different from what you actually mean, but the actual opposite of what you mean. And so it reveals, I study, my interest is in the science of language. And to me, sarcasm is this really profound paradox, trying to figure out why we would do this. Why would you risk being misunderstood when the whole point of talking and communicating is to be understood? But you take this big risk with sarcasm. So there must be some payoffs. And so it becomes interesting to think about, you know, what is that telling us about

human thinking, about our social interactions, about the way we try and persuade and influence other people. So it just exposes all of these really interesting issues that are interesting to me as a psychologist. And so what is the payoff? Why say the opposite of what you mean in hopes of making your point? Because it makes the point better. What is the payoff? So I think the payoff is, as we've mentioned, humor. So certainly you're trying to be funny. Most of the time when you use sarcasm, you're trying to be funny, even if only to entertain yourself.

It's not always clear that the person who hears the sarcasm will find it funny. But you're also trying to convey an idea indirectly. So you're deliberately trying to veil your meaning or make it a little bit challenging to understand what you actually mean. And you might do that because you're trying to position yourself as a little bit superior, as somebody who's clever, so you can actually play with language. Sometimes we use it because we don't want the person that we're talking to, to be sure what we mean, right? So you have that kind of,

you can always back up and say, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't being sarcastic. I meant that. So it protects you a little bit. It protects the speaker and adds these layers of kind of controlling the way other people perceive us. You must have, you must have like your favorite example of sarcasm that you think is just brilliant. Well, I mean, I study one of the things I'm interested in is how kids learn sarcasm. And so I always find the examples that kids come up with to be the most compelling and the most interesting because it's such an achievement. So it's really exciting to me when they start to use it. But there was one little

guy who was playing a game with his mom in one of our studies. And his mom screwed up the game. And he said, Oh, smooth move, mom. And it was just, you know, it was coming out of the mouth of this five year old. And so it was it was particularly compelling. So the context of that, I think really, I really enjoyed that. But there are, I think, much more clever examples, certainly. But I always find the first ones that kids come up with to be particularly interesting. And have you asked kids who first come up with their first sarcastic remark, Like, what was that about? I don't know if we've exactly done that, but we've certainly asked them, you know,

why they think people use sarcasm. We've tried to figure out how they begin to understand it. And we've looked at the types that they'll use first. So what are those first things that kids will try out? And a lot of it is things that they are mimicking. Right. So they don't necessarily I'm not sure they always understand exactly what they're doing. I don't think they could tell you that it's sarcasm. I think they just they're mimicking something an older sibling has said or a parent has said.

And it's usually something really conventional. Like they'll say, oh, great. Or thanks a lot. So there are things that they've heard other people use when they want to offer kind of negative commentary on something, but they're not necessarily coming up with something novel. What goes on in the brain when people hear sarcasm, especially maybe kids, but when somebody says something that's the opposite of what they mean, does my brain go, hey, wait a minute, this doesn't make any sense? Yes.

The short answer is yes, it does. So we have some really interesting ideas about how sarcasm is processed in the brain, in part from studies with people who've had damage to specific parts of the brain, either through stroke or some other kind of trauma. So they lose function in a particular part of the brain. And one of the things you sometimes see in patients is that they really struggle to, you know, while they might have their vocabulary seems intact and they can understand sentence structure, they struggle with that kind of humorous social language like sarcasm. And so that's an important source of information because that's telling us that part of the brain is probably linked to that ability to detect sarcasm. And so it seems that there are several

areas that need to be engaged. So there are certain, you know, we could talk about the neuroanatomy, but there are certain parts of the brain that are engaged. But I think one of the key things is that it is something that requires some extra processing, because you're not just sort of listening to the words and processing the meaning, which is what you're normally doing when you understand language. You're also going to the additional step of thinking about what exactly does the speaker mean and why would they have said that? And so then you start to need parts of the brain that help you take the perspective of someone else or have insights about someone else's mind and their attitude and what they're

really trying to convey. So it's quite effortful. Which makes you wonder why we do it in the first place. You know what I really hate is when somebody is being sarcastic, but you're not really sure if they are. Like, well, it could go either way. And like, I don't know what to do with this. I mean, I had an email yesterday where I had to write back to the person because they took what I said sarcastically, and I really didn't mean it sarcastically. And I thought, oh my gosh, you know, I'm a researcher who studies sarcasm, and I can't even use it properly, or I can't even be clear with people

what I mean. So no, there's a lot of ambiguity. It is very challenging to figure out, especially if you don't know the person who's speaking, if you're in a context like email or text where you don't have those extra cues, you don't have facial expression or tone of voice. And it's, and it's hard for kids until they're, until they're quite old. So it is a bit mysterious why we would do that. And so it, I think provides a clue that there's, there's this hope of this kind of payoff, you know, like if it works, this person not only will know what I mean, but they'll have enjoyed it, right? They'll'll have maybe they had to work a little bit harder to figure out what I meant, but they will be in on the joke and will be sharing this joke. And there is evidence that there's kind of a social bonding function. Right. So kind of that adage like you only tease the ones you love.

There does tend to be more teasing and sarcasm in close relationships. And the idea is it's sort of it's building stronger bonds and also allowing you to kind of perhaps like jab and jest with someone in a slightly softer way than if you did it directly. When people are labeled as sarcastic, it isn't a compliment. You know, oh, Bob's so sarcastic. I mean, it's kind of a negative description of someone because they can't ever just talk normal. They're always being sarcastic. Although it's interesting because there were some data last year from someone had looked at dating profiles and found that there were a remarkable number of dating profiles where people, you know, as they listed their traits, they listed that they were sarcastic. And, and so that, that, you know, that to me was really interesting, because I thought, well, clearly, it's got some positive,

some positive connotation, there must be something that they're signaling by saying by adding that trait to their personal description. And and it's probably that it suggests that you can, you know, that you can joke, right? That you are someone who can dish it out and, you know, maybe entertaining to talk to. But you're right, most people would not want to be labeled as super sarcastic, although there are some people who would. And there's some differences along gender lines. So we tend to find that men are more comfortable saying, yeah, I'm sarcastic. And it's a little bit less likely for women to report that they feel comfortable with that description. And are men more sarcastic than women? In our studies, they're not. So they think they are. But if we actually sort of assess what

they're saying and their likelihood of producing sarcasm, there is no difference. It's more like a perception of oneself. So they're more comfortable with that label, but don't actually produce more as far as we can measure. Going back to this idea of someone being labeled as sarcastic, is there any evidence, any research about, you know, a less is more, that a little sarcasm is fine, but when you take it too far, when you do it too often, that it starts to fall back? Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, the power of it is that it is different, right? So it's, you know, it gets people's attention, and it has its desired effect when it's only used occasionally. But as soon as it becomes the way that someone talks all the time,

it becomes frustrating for people who have to interact with them and kind of tiresome. So, yeah, it's a device that works best in moderation. And otherwise, it just becomes, you know, it's overdone. And it's, it's no longer funny. Right? Because as you said, it's effortful to figure it out. It's effortful for the listener to go, Oh, okay, so what he really means is the opposite of what he just said. And that happens, I guess, very quickly in your brain, but, but you still have to, you still have to process it. Whereas if you just say what you want to say, it seems like that's an easier path. Yes. And in fact, that's something that we've learned from studying kids is they will say, you know, they sort of get frustrated with people who

are sarcastic with them and they'll say, why would you talk that way? Like, why wouldn't you just say what you mean? Because basically, you know, what they're suggesting is that you're putting the load on them, right? So it is something I think you want to do judiciously and can be quite frustrating. Well, I would imagine if you're a kid and you haven't really thought much about this and you hear someone being sarcastic and really pay attention, you could think the person is lying. I mean, they're saying the opposite of the truth. Initially, I think most kids are kind of oblivious in terms of what you're actually trying to say. But once they start to grasp it, usually around age five or so, they will often take it as a lie. So if you say, nice going, they'll say thanks because they are actually taking it as a compliment.

And they just don't even have that possibility in mind that you could be doing something different. And developing that possibility is really the challenge. So learning that sometimes people talk this way, maybe even learning that it's called sarcasm, those are the kinds of things they have to do before they can engage in those conversations. You know, I haven't really thought much about sarcasm until, you know, this conversation and preparing for this conversation. And it's interesting that it does seem that a lot of sarcastic comments and really sarcasm is typically a comment right it isn't you don't carry on a conversation sarcastically you usually just say something and let it go right yes most of the time you're right people aren't looking necessarily for for any sort of follow-up they're looking for just the movie they want to laugh or a smirk yeah it usually is it commentary. And so I think that's another interesting piece of it. Psychologically is, is it suggests that, you know, we want to have a because typically sarcasm is it's something that on the surface is a positive statement, but really has this negative meaning underneath.

And so if someone hasn't hasn't shown up on time, you might say, wow, you're really punctual or thanks for being punctual. And so you're commenting on the fact that they have failed to meet your expectations. Things haven't gone as well as expected. And that seems to be something we need a device for. So there seems to be some human need to offer commentary on how things are going. Sarcasm is often used as a way to criticize or maybe even insult somebody in a softer way. Is it a good way to do that, do you think? I think it's best when you know the person. And I think that's when it's going to be best received because the person knows what your real attitude is and they know how

you really feel about them, right? So you're not putting those things at risk. But you when you can deliver that criticism with a little bit of humor, first of all, it's more memorable. But but also it's just it's more likely they're going to receive it. Right. Because it's just a tease. It's not it's not a direct criticism, which feels so significant. It's you're taking the edge off it a little bit by using sarcasm to deliver the criticism. I'm wondering if you've looked at this, is people who are sarcastic, who are more sarcastic than others, who use it a lot, does it then run in the family?

Do the kids grow up being kind of sarcastic-y like mom and dad were, or not? It does run in the family. So we found that if mom and dad, mom or dad, or mom and mom, whomever, if the parents are using more sarcasm in their conversations, the family conversations, the family dialogue, we'll see kids starting to use it earlier and using it more often. So and the same is true older sibling to younger sibling. So it does run in families. And it's hard to say whether that's kind of a personality thing that also runs in the family, or if it is more just that that's kind of a style of talk that's been picked up and has persisted in the family. There's a lot we still don't know

about, you know, what personality types are most likely to be sarcastic, because there certainly is variability across people, and there's definitely variability within families. You know what occurred to me is, if you're trying to learn English, or I guess as you say, sarcasm is in every language, but if you're trying to learn English as a second language and you come across sarcasm comment on the fact that the thing, you know, they've got the vocab down, they're feeling good about their ability to generate sentences and to be fluent. But the thing that they still struggle with at the end of the day, the thing that's the hardest to grasp is the sarcasm of this other language and to be able to use it effectively and to be able to pick it up. And so that's really interesting that this is like this one aspect of language

and something we kind of use unconsciously and as adults get pretty adept at decoding would be so challenging, right? It is kind of like the final frontier for a language learner is to be able to grasp the sarcasm and the humor of this new language that they are struggling to understand. And so you hear that from people who teach, you know, English as a second language, that that's the final lesson, right? If you can get sarcasm detection, then you're truly proficient. Well, you know, language is one of my favorite topics to discuss. I love how the English language works and how it changes.

And yet I've never really had a conversation about sarcasm, particularly with someone who studies sarcasm. Penny Paxman has been my guest. She is a professor of psychology at the University of Calgary, and she has a free coloring book for kids to help them understand sarcasm, and you'll find that coloring book for free at childresearchgroup.ca, and I'll put that link in the show notes. Thanks, Penny. I've really enjoyed it. It's been a lot of fun, and I mean that sincerely. I'm not being sarcastic. Okay. No, I really appreciate it, Mike. Great to talk to you.

There's nothing like taking in that aroma of a freshly cut Christmas tree in your house this time of year. But after a few weeks, the mold count on that tree starts to skyrocket, which could trigger a flare-up of allergy symptoms for you. Researchers at the American College of Allergy put evergreen trees to the test and found that mold counts hovered around the normal range for the first two weeks, but after day 14, they went up as much as eight times higher. Mold starts to grow on needles, the branches, and the trunk as soon as a cut tree starts to decay. And if you start to experience those symptoms, scratchy throat, itchy eyes, fatigue, whenever you're near the tree, it's time to get rid of it. And that is something you should know. Do tell your friends

about this podcast. Since you like it, I suspect they would like it too. And I would appreciate you spreading the word. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Hey, hey, are you ready for some real talk and some fantastic laughs? Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? We're serving up for hilarious shows every week designed to entertain and engage and, you know, possibly enrage you. In Don't Blame Me, we dive deep into listeners' questions, offering advice that's funny, relatable, and real.

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