Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: Being Wealthy vs Rich & Mastering Conversation

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Starting point is 00:00:49 month I could but that's a choice and later on when I had a lot less savings I'd have to recognize that's what I did you have to realize choices have consequences plus one thing any man can do that will make him more attractive to a woman, and how to control any conversation and have it go your way. When you find that kernel that connects you to another person, there's that possibility of having a conversation that actually is very satisfying and goes somewhere. You know, again, it's just a matter of connecting on a level of common interest. All this today on Something You Should Know.

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Starting point is 00:02:14 Hi, welcome. If I sound a little different today, it's because I caught a cold, so I have that kind of stuffy sound in my voice. But the good news is that it's getting better and hopefully will be gone in a day or two. First up today, you like to think you're a savvy supermarket shopper, but the people who design and run those supermarkets, they watch what you do and try to find ways to get you to spend more money. Here are some of the things you may not realize about your supermarket. 60% of shoppers admit to changing their mind and occasionally taking items out of their cart while they're in the checkout line. So you'll notice that checkout lines are now narrower and have fewer shelves and other places to ditch items at the last minute in hopes that you'll just keep it in your cart and buy it. Some of the same cheese that's

Starting point is 00:03:06 in the deli case may also be available in the dairy case. The package isn't going to be as fancy, but the cheese is the same and it's a lot cheaper. The mist that they spray on produce may make food look fresh, but it actually can accelerate rotting and add water weight. So shake the leafy greens to get rid of the water, otherwise you're paying for the water. Almost everything in the supermarket will be reduced to 50% off at some point. You just have to track it and figure out when what goes on sale. And don't assume that buying in bulk saves you money. For instance, individual peppers are almost always cheaper than those in the multi-packs, and loose avocados are usually cheaper than the ones grouped in those mesh bags.

Starting point is 00:03:59 Grocery stores don't usually have the best prices on milk. The milk at drug stores and convenience stores is typically 30 to 50 cents less per gallon. And that is something you should know. You may think the words rich and wealthy are synonymous. People tend to use them interchangeably. But there is an important distinction between being rich and being wealthy that is made by journalist Paul Sullivan. Paul writes the Wealth Matters column for the New York Times, and he's author of the book The Thin Green Line, The Money Secrets of the Super Wealthy. And for several years now, Paul has written about and lived among some of the world's wealthiest people.

Starting point is 00:04:47 And he's used that knowledge to build his own substantial wealth. Hey, Paul, welcome. So, this thin green line is what separates the rich from the wealthy. So, let's start there. You say that wealthy people are above the green line. And that means they have choices. They can make the choices they want in the life they want to lead. They could not earn a ton of money. They could be a teacher. They could be a nurse. But they're making plans in such a way that they

Starting point is 00:05:17 still can make choices about life. Okay, and so the difference between them and rich people define what a rich person is. They're over-leveraged. They've made decisions that are going to be hard to maintain if anything goes wrong. They're overly dependent upon maintaining their earnings at an incredibly high level, as opposed to having the security that will allow them to do what they want. They're at risk, people who are rich, they're at risk of having life security that will allow them to do what they want. They're at risk. People who are rich are at risk of having life make the decisions for them,

Starting point is 00:05:49 not the other way around. So it's not so much a dollar amount as more of a plan and a mindset. It's absolutely not a dollar amount. You're 100% correct there, Mike. It's how we approach what we're going to do. I mean, you can stockpile a ton of money, but if you buy a giant house, a giant boat, a whole series of very expensive cars, you're going to quickly run out of it. And one of the stories I tell, only half jokingly, is about my aunt. My aunt is a retired schoolteacher.

Starting point is 00:06:24 She's got three kids, five grandkids. She is wealthy. By every measure, she is wealthy. Why? Well, she did exactly what she's supposed to do as a teacher. She invested in the teacher savings plan. She bought life insurance when, unfortunately, my uncle passed away early. She never had a house that was beyond her means.

Starting point is 00:06:46 And now, in retirement, in her mid-70s, she gets to do everything she wants to do. Now, she's not getting on a jet and flying off to Davos or Monaco. She's not doing that. But what she is doing is, you know, volunteering at her church, you know, helping people less fortunate than she is, going to see my cousins and her grandkids several times a year, you know, trips off to Italy, you know, river cruises in

Starting point is 00:07:12 Europe, going to Vietnam. These are not, you know, small trips. They're big trips. But she's able to make the choices as to when to do them and how to do them, because early on in her life, she chose to be on the right side of the thing green line. She chose to make those decisions that made her wealthy, even though she was a teacher, always making a teacher's salary. But somebody might hear that story and say, yeah, what she did was she deferred till later, till her 70s, to have fun, and I'd rather have it in my younger years than wait till I'm 70. She had fun all along the way, but she was cognizant of the choices she was making. I mean,

Starting point is 00:07:52 she never, I don't know if you have any kids, but when you have three kids, I have three kids, you're probably not dashing off to Monaco if you're a halfway decent parent. There's a lot of deferral when you have kids. But she was having fun all along the way, and the key was that she was able to make choices. And there are plenty of people, you're right, who say, well, I want to have that fun now. You know, I'll deal with it later when later comes. And that's a choice.

Starting point is 00:08:18 Whether people realize it or not, that's a choice. And so if you have an amazing time in your 30s, 40s, and 50s, and then when you stop working, or worse, when you lose your job in your 50s, and you haven't prepared for a day when you're not going to have that income coming in, well, if you're willing to accept that that's going to be a very different life than you were leading. I call it the Bordeaux dilemma. And Bordeaux is, of course, a very nice French wine. And I say, you know, I wish I'd never had a wine called Chateau Margot, one of the top five French wines, top five Bordeauxs out there. Because once you have it, it's so amazing and so much better,

Starting point is 00:09:00 objectively better than the wine you would have normally, that you always remember that. And if you're somebody like me, you'd like to have a life where occasionally you can have a Chateau Margot. I'm not going to have it every week. I'm not going to have it every month. I may not have it every six months. I may have it once a year, but I'll appreciate it. And it's a choice because I know how great it is. Now, could I buy a bottle of Chateau Margot, which is $500, $600, $700 a bottle every month? I could. But that's a choice.

Starting point is 00:09:31 And later on, when I had a lot less savings, I'd have to recognize that's what I did. You have to make choices, and you have to realize choices have consequences. There is a lot of pressure, though, from just living in this world of having the bigger car, having the nicer house, so many people kick off the year by going on a diet. And what happens? Two, three, four months in, they fail. Or they're on the diet for maybe a year, and they fail. Why? A diet is about taking away things that we like. I mean, most books that talk about money and how we should think about our money are some form of a diet.

Starting point is 00:10:24 You know, don't have that Starbucks latte that costs $4 or $5. Don't do that. I tell people the opposite. It's much better to have a plan, not a restrictive set of rules that tell us what we can't do, but a positive plan that tells us what we can do and want to do, but gives us a guide as to how to do it. So if you want to have that Starbucks coffee, fine, but be cognizant of the cost. Calculate it, realize how much that costs every week, every month, every year, and then say, okay, what's my goal? What do I want to save? What type of life do I want to have later on? And make sure you still have the money to save for that. And if you don't, well, that's okay. As long as you're okay

Starting point is 00:11:05 with it, be aware that if you make those choices and you don't have enough money, that's fine, but there are going to be consequences to it. So often people have a plan that then something happens because something always happens. There's always some, you don't know what it's going to be, but there's always going to be deviations in your plan which screw people up and make them think well screw the plan and there are always reasons not to save today uh you know one of the guys in my book richard thaler won a nobel prize a couple years ago he won it for early research but he's continued to do very interesting things. One of them is he helped this economist come up with what they called Save More Tomorrow. And it's essentially a way to look at 401ks so that when people get raises,

Starting point is 00:11:52 they automatically contribute more money under the theory that if you don't have it, you don't miss it. So if you're automatically saving X amount of dollars a month toward retirement or toward whatever goal, when that crisis comes along, hopefully you'll be able to pull other levers, levers around discretionary spending, levers around that Starbucks latte we were talking about before. Because otherwise, there's always an excuse that we can make to do something tomorrow and not do it today. But the longer we make that excuse, the more we then have to sacrifice and the more we then have to save to lead the life later on when we're not working that we hope to lead. My guest is Paul Sullivan. He writes the Wealth Matters column for the New York Times, and he's author of the book, The Thin Green Line.

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Starting point is 00:14:24 So, Paul, how do you resist that pressure to spend and enjoy? You've got to have the latest smartphone. You've got to have the latest computer. That one's, you know, a year old. It's obsolete. There is a lot of pressure to spend, spend, spend right now. So how do you resist that? The short answer to your question is, it's that sense of enough. I mean, John Bogle, the founder of Vanguard, who recently passed away,

Starting point is 00:14:51 wrote a book entitled just that, enough. A lot of us don't have that. But let's face it, a Mercedes is a much nicer car than a Toyota. It just is. If you've ever ridden in a Mercedes, it's a much more comfortable car. It's better built. It has a better sound system. Much better than a Toyota. However, it's a lot more money. Now, if you're such a person that you make so much money that it doesn't matter, if you buy a Mercedes, great, buy it. If you're a person who really should afford a Toyota, but you love cars, well, okay, think of other things you can sacrifice. And the Mercedes is your thing. But where people run into problems is when they want that thing, everything beyond what they have. I used to have this dental

Starting point is 00:15:38 hygienist. A dental hygienist, that's a perfectly fine middle-class job, but you're not pulling in $200,000 a year, $500,000 a year as a dental hygienist. You're probably pulling in $60,000, $70,000, $80,000 if you're lucky. And she would always talk to me about her BMW that she had. She'd talk to me about the trip she'd take down to Florida with her daughter. And I'm one of those guys, I'm no math genius, but I'm pretty good at basic arithmetic. I was like, there's no way this computes. Now, was this woman buying things that she enjoyed?

Starting point is 00:16:10 Yes. Do I think that she was cognizant of the effects that this was going to have? Because at one point, she wasn't going to work. She was going to want to retire, or she might lose her job if something happened to the dental practice. No, I don't think she was cognizant of any of that. She was absolutely keeping up of any of that. She was absolutely keeping up with the Joneses.

Starting point is 00:16:30 But a lot of us do that. Sometimes I'll hear people say to justify making an expense that maybe they probably shouldn't. Well, I can deduct it off my taxes. It's deductible, so it's okay. I don't know. After the recent tax reform bill, I think a lot of us are realizing that our deductions are going to be far fewer. Unless we're wildly charitable, we're not getting that deduction. I mean, what are the big things we can still deduct? Mortgage interest, state and local taxes, property taxes, up to a certain point. And a lot of places, state and

Starting point is 00:17:01 local taxes aren't deductible anymore, but you have the property taxes, charitable donations, but only if you make enough so that you hit that deductibility. I mean, the way this new tax code has been written, at least as it stands now, most everybody, whether you're charitable or not, something around 88% are going to get just a standard deduction. Standard deduction, blanket, I think it's about $12,000. I may be wrong on that. I should look it up. But it's a blanket deduction no matter how much you give unless you do things beyond that amount. So about 12% of us are going to be able to say, well, it's deductible. So that's another example of, you know, when it comes to taxes, we think one thing, but the reality is different. And that's the history of tax policy in America.

Starting point is 00:17:50 One of the things that people who don't have a lot of money envy about the people who do is that, well, when you have a lot of money, you can handle anything. That whatever comes along, you'll have the money to get yourself out of it. And when you're not wealthy, you don't. And that comfort of knowing that whatever comes, you can handle it, is enviable. Yeah, I mean, there's a, you know, I've got three kids, and they're young, and, you know, there's a, people are always telling people with older kids, little kids, little problems, big kids, big problems. And the same thing applies to wealthy people.

Starting point is 00:18:33 Are they worried about making their mortgage payments? No, probably not, if they're truly wealthy. Are they worried about the amount of money they have to put their kids through college or maybe even pay paper private school? No, probably not. So those basic things are taken off the table. But they have money concerns in a different way. Now, this is the quintessential rich people's problems.

Starting point is 00:18:56 But what are their concerns? Their concerns are, you know, how am I able to impart good money skills on my children? I mean, the majority of wealthy people in America are first-generation wealth, meaning they started out middle class, upper middle class, in some cases, working class, and they became wealthy. So they had a certain drive, a certain focus that allowed them to achieve something that paid them an outsized wage or paid them an outside premium when they sold their business. Now, they still have concerns.

Starting point is 00:19:31 They worry, well, do my kids have motivation? Do my kids understand the value of money? Do my kids understand what I had to do to get to this level? What are my kids going to do? I mean, we all worry about our children. This is one area, talking about money, where a middle-class family has a leg up over a very wealthy family. An easy example is if a middle-class family is looking to buy a new car,

Starting point is 00:20:00 chances are they actually need the new car. This isn't the newest model. They've had their Honda for 10 years, 15 years, and they're sitting around the table saying, okay, is it worth doing this, you know, XYZ repair that's going to cost several thousand dollars at this point? Or should we buy a new Toyota or Honda and take that car payment and have to deal with that $300, $400, $500 a month over the next X number of months, is it worth it? Why is that beneficial? Because chances are those people both work, and that conversation is taking place around a dinner table where their children, through osmosis, if they're not paying attention to their parents, just hearing it, are getting a sense of how people negotiate around things that they need versus something that you want.

Starting point is 00:20:45 Look, a Range Rover is an awesome SUV, but it's $100,000 minimum. And that means you've got to earn $200,000 before you pay the tax to buy that $100,000 car. It's not something anybody needs. It's something you want. And therefore, chances are you're not really sitting around talking about how much it's going to cost or how much I'm going to have to earn pre-tax to buy that brand new Range Rover. If anything, you're talking about the features, about the color, about the interior, like all the things that make that incredible car even cooler. Well, that's a different set of money

Starting point is 00:21:22 lessons that those kids are learning around the Range Rover table versus the Honda table. And it's really those conversations that we need to have with ourselves so we know what we're doing, but also around our kids so they have some sense of money. I don't know if you've talked to enough people to have a sense of this, but if people hear this message and go, you know, this guy's a genius. I really need to do what he's... How hard is it? How hard is it if you've been one way to become the other way? Two answers. Everything is hard if you don't have the motivation to do it. You know, most people get motivated to do something like this after perhaps something has gone wrong in their lives. Or, better in a strange way, after something has gone wrong in their lives or better in a strange way after something has gone wrong in a close friend's life. And they get to see, okay, this is what I really need to do.

Starting point is 00:22:11 I mean, if you're coasting along and you don't think anything is going to go wrong and you have a steady job and you see your salary going up every year, it's easy to sort of defer to tomorrow what we should do today. But if you've seen somebody who's worked really hard and lived a pretty good life and then they've lost a job or somebody in the family has gotten sick and suddenly things turn around, most of us who are self-reflective would say, boy, what would I do if that happened to me? How could I respond?

Starting point is 00:22:43 Would I be in a good enough position? And this is where, if you get to that point, hopefully you have enough time to turn things around. Because I never would advocate to anybody, okay, you know, you've been saving 3% of your money. Tomorrow you need to start saving 25% of your money to catch up. Because you do that for a little while, and then you say, well, forget about this. You know, I don't want to do this. This is miserable. I want to go back to just living my life. You need to sort of incrementally, gradually increase the way you're thinking and acting around money so that you're making these better decisions. If it's too radical, it'll last for a couple months

Starting point is 00:23:20 and then we'll quit. I want to, you know, change the way people think about money and plan about money and make choices around money and have these positive decisions have a good effect on their lives. So it takes being cognizant of it, and then it takes, you know, a deliberate plan that you can stick to over not weeks, not months, but years and years and years. Well, I know there are a lot of people who are older who look back on their life and say, when it comes to money, you know, if I knew then what I know now, I would have done things differently. So perhaps your advice will help people come up with a better way for the long term. My guest has been Paul Sullivan. He writes the Wealth Matters column for the New York Times, and he's author of the book, The Thin Green Line, The Money Secrets of the Super Wealthy.

Starting point is 00:24:08 There's a link to his book in the show notes for this episode. Thank you, Paul. Great. Thanks for calling. I love talking to you. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on

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Starting point is 00:25:18 Hey everyone, join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week we deliver four fun filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong? Which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong? And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't

Starting point is 00:25:49 Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Think of all the conversations you have in a day. There are probably a lot of them, and some of them probably go better than others. I know for me, I often think back on conversations I had and think, I wish I'd said something else instead. Verbal conversation is a primary way we communicate as we navigate through life. And wouldn't it be better if we could master those conversations, really say what we want to say, make our point, and feel good about it?

Starting point is 00:26:31 Marianne Korinch is a body language expert, author of 28 books, and her latest is Control the Conversation, How to Charm, Deflect, and Defend Your Position Through Any Line of Questioning. Hi, Marianne. Thanks for being here. Hi, Mike. Thanks for having me on. You bet. So, you say that the idea for your book came as a result of something that happened to your co-author Jim Pyle's daughter, right? That's absolutely right.

Starting point is 00:27:00 Jim Pyle's daughter did not get an opportunity to do a commercial because she didn't know how to respond to a question about her skills, her equestrian skills. And she came home and said, Daddy, I did not get the job. And he said, Well, what did you say to them? And she told him. And then he said, He called me up right away and said, I have an idea. And that's when we started working on the book. Opportunities can fly by you if you don't know how to respond right. So what does it mean to respond right? How do you, I mean, obviously every question is different, every situation is different,

Starting point is 00:27:34 but in general, what does it mean to respond correctly? It's a full-bodied answer. And that means that you want to cover as many of the four areas of discovery as possible. It's people, places, things, and time. And if you're asked a thing question in a job interview, for example, like what did you do at your previous job, if you can work in who you worked with, how pleased they were, what the time frame was for you getting a job done, all of those other elements of disclosure, then you're much more likely to engage someone in a full-bodied conversation and give them information that's going to help them

Starting point is 00:28:19 evaluate you a little bit better. So you're saying that in that situation, like a job interview, when someone asks you a question, if you can, in addition to answering the question, also include the people, places, things, and time frame, that that allows for a better conversation, a more engaging conversation. But also in those situations, it can also be intimidating, which tends to shut people down and make you give short answers to just answer the question and not waste time. Right, right. That's why if you go into it thinking there are four areas of disclosure, I really need to cover as many bases as possible and give a complete robust response to whatever I'm being asked. I represent myself better. You have to be very conscious about it, very deliberate, and it helps to prepare. What about people who just don't generally like conversation? I mean,

Starting point is 00:29:19 all of us have times where we would rather not converse with someone else. But there are people, too, who just, they're not conversationalists. They don't like small talk. They're uncomfortable in those situations. Right. Even people who are shy in conversation, reluctant to engage in conversation, something interests them. And when you find that kernel that connects you to another person, there's that possibility of having a conversation that actually is very satisfying and goes somewhere.

Starting point is 00:29:52 But it's, you know, again, it's just a matter of connecting on a level of common interest. Everybody knows and can think of people in their life who are quite charming in conversation. But what does that mean? What does it take to be more charming? Part of it is active listening. This is something that you do well. You're charming, Mike. You listen to people and you ask them questions that will get them excited,

Starting point is 00:30:21 that will engage them in conversation with you. So charm is primarily a listening skill. It's showing an interest with your voice, your body, the way you use your words, all the topics that you go toward. Charm is something that it's an authentic way of expressing interest in another person. If I really feel that you want to talk to me, you're charming. It's pretty easy to be charming. It seems to me, it's my experience, that being a good conversationalist,

Starting point is 00:30:59 having a really good conversation is effortful. And it requires some preparation in the sense that like when I interview people for this podcast, I mean, I pump myself up a bit. I make sure I know what I'm going to talk about, what I'm going to ask, at least to get started, to see where things go. I make a real effort to have a good conversation. And so what are the things, if you had to pick the top things, that if you nail these things you will have a good conversation, what would those be? If you are having a conversation, what you hope is that you're learning, that you're

Starting point is 00:31:36 you're stimulating the other person's curiosity, that you're moving forward in a way that when it's over you'll feel like it was time well spent. So every conversation, if you just keep listening for, what does this person want to know? What does this person want to take away from this? What do I want to take away from this? How can I listen better and learn from this person? It's interactive listening. Yeah, it's that listening part that people, I think, tend to forget,

Starting point is 00:32:11 that a conversation is me talking. It's not necessarily me listening. Right, right. And you have done, what, more than 8,500 interviews over the past few years? You have listened quite a bit. You're really good at it. You seem to enjoy it, and that's part of why people want to talk to you. You're there for us, and we want to be there for you. And that's, it's just, it's a great human,

Starting point is 00:32:43 it's a dimension of our humanity. I think one of the things that people, as I mentioned earlier, one of the things people really don't like is making small talk, going to a party and talking to someone they know they'll probably never see again and have to say something. So can we talk about small talk and how to do it and make it less painful and make it maybe even pleasurable? I, in fact, don't even believe in small talk. There's always something to be learned. For example, I was at an event last weekend. Tons of people, hundreds of people, lots of small talk. What I came away with was so valuable. Insights into why somebody is wearing that piece of jewelry, or how good that pastrami was, or something. There was just something about every exchange that led me to think, oh, this is really a fun event. I don't know any of these people,

Starting point is 00:33:35 but I'm having a good time. You need to turn on your curiosity and think, why is this person even talking to me? What can I give this person? What's authentic about our interaction right at this moment? I don't think it's small talk. I think it's getting to know you talk. And that's really important. It's another type of connection. It may be superficial type of connection, but it's still a connection. In those conversations, you often end up talking to someone who just can't stop talking, and you really want to extricate yourself from that, or at least try to get back control of the conversation so that you're not listening to this litany of whatever. Any advice on that? Sure. Sometimes people just

Starting point is 00:34:19 love the sound of their own voice. That's a normal thing. The person may be nervous. There are lots of different reasons why they might be nervous. One of them is maybe they think you're a very attractive person and they want to impress you. Maybe they think you're an important person and they want to impress you. So think about what may be the reason why this person is going on and on. What about responding to questions you'd really rather not answer, because it's none of their business, or it's not something you want to talk about, it's too personal? How do you, what's a good way to deflect that? Think about what kind of question it is, first of all. Is it a thing question, a people question,

Starting point is 00:35:06 a time question, you know, a place question? Because that element of it, the type of question, you know, a place question, because that element of it, the type of question, is probably what is making you uncomfortable. You don't want to admit that you were some particular place they're asking you about, for example. So turn it into a different type of question. Answer it with a different area of disclosure. That's one way to do it. Another way to do it is instead of giving an answer, ask another question. You know, if somebody asks you a question about Disneyland, ask them, have you ever been there? Somehow take it in a different

Starting point is 00:35:41 direction or have you ever been to Euro Disney? Sometimes the counter question will take them in a different direction. So those are a couple of techniques. Those people who we all know who command conversations, even though theoretically you're coming at this as equals, but somehow they control the conversation and it goes their way, what are they doing that I'm not doing that allows them to do that? Oh, that's such a great question, because that brings us immediately to the four types of people in terms of, you know, how you would categorize people in answering questions. That person most likely is what we would call a dictator. That's somebody who has

Starting point is 00:36:28 a very decided agenda, is very directed in conversation by something like trying to stay on point, excessively trying to stay on point. And that person will often give you an opinion as though it's a fact. Now, without being pejorative on any level, I'm going to say that our President, Donald Trump, is a dictator in terms of how he responds to questions. He will always direct you to what he wants to present to you in terms of information, and he has no problem giving opinion as though it's fact. When you're up against that, there's very little you can do to make that person different.

Starting point is 00:37:13 So you said there are four types of people in conversation, the dictator being one. So what are the other three? The other three would be handler. A handler manages information well, will absorb the question, give responses that are directed toward conveying as much of a complete response as possible. They simply manage information well. Another type of person is a commentator. A commentator will tell you this, that, and the other thing, and maybe this falls in the category of too much information. Commentators a lot of times will just color everything they say with extra stories, with extra facts, et cetera.

Starting point is 00:38:00 Now, another one is the evader. And an evader is not necessarily a person who simply wants to get away from the question. An evader is somebody who may be processing the information differently and not giving a direct response, not giving what even seems like a relevant response, only because they're processing the information differently. Other people become evaders when the need arises to step away from the question, to sidestep whatever topic is uncomfortable to them. So lastly then, in general, what's the takeaway here? What is it you want people to understand about conversations that you see them not understanding when you talk to people? What I'd like them to understand is that they have

Starting point is 00:38:52 something valuable to share, so do other people, and by giving full-bodied responses to questions as opposed to curt answers, there is the greater possibility of giving the other person more insight about who you are and what you know. Similarly, asking good questions of the other person and truly listening to the response and responding in kind by hearing the key words, by focusing on the topics of greatest interest to this person will help forge a connection. Forging a connection is the foundation for a relationship, whether the relationship lasts five minutes or 50 years. That interaction, that level of interaction of genuine engagement and authentic listening, active listening, will lead to much more satisfying interactions with other people.

Starting point is 00:39:54 You mentioned keywords, and usually when I'm in a conversation and I'm listening to someone else talk, I'm not sure I know what that means to listen for keywords. So talk about that. The keywords can be verbs, they can be modifiers, they can be qualifiers like, of course. And all of those things tip you off as to what the other person really wants to know. So if there's a focus on, if I ask you about a softball game that you were involved in and I asked if you beat them, beating the other, that's what I'm focused on. Did you beat them? Not how did you play or did you enjoy yourself? Did you beat the other team?

Starting point is 00:40:41 So keywords like that, whether it's emphasis through the kind that I just did or just the fact that a particular verb or a particular noun is used, that can clue you in as to what that person sees as really important. So listening to this, or if somebody asks you a question and says, well, of course, did you, blah, blah, blah, well, then there's an assumption embedded in that, and you already know that the person sort of has an agenda and is conditioning the question in a way that there's an expectation of a certain type of answer.

Starting point is 00:41:20 Just listen for that. If you're supposed to meet somebody and the person says, well, let's meet at 11, then clearly 11 has some significance. So just listen for those key words and things like that. Because it's something I do in this podcast and in conversation with people where I deliberately insert words that are unique or unusual or that conjure up a very graphic, clear image about something that sticks, that makes the point. So explain your theory on sticky words. If you want to get somebody else to remember a concept that you're talking about, or you want somebody to remember you for a particular thing, what you might do is throw in a sticky word, something that is a memorable word that they'll come away with it. They'll use it. They'll incorporate it into whatever conversation they're having later. So let's say it's devastation. And I talk about

Starting point is 00:42:34 the devastation of some environmental thing. That word is going to stick. It's just the type of word that you remember. And then you can take a conversation in a particular direction because that word will stick in the person's mind. It's something that a lot of really good speakers use to get people to focus on their message. How do you figure out what are good sticky words? Some of it depends on who you're talking with, but some of it just is the sound of the word.

Starting point is 00:43:04 There's some words that are memorable. Jubilant. Jubilant is how often do people use that word? Not that often. I would call that a sticky word. If you are talking about, let's say, risk, it evokes an emotional response in just about everybody. The concept of risk, because it means something different to every person. Sniper.

Starting point is 00:43:28 It's a very sharp, specific word. It calls to mind a specific type of person. Somebody says sniper, and you're likely to have that word stick in your head. If you look at quotable quotes, which I do quite a bit, a lot of times it's because there's just an unusual word thrown in the quote. And you think, oh, I remember that quote because that word is so unusual. There's a thoughtful element in word choice that can really enhance conversation and get people to think about you and what you know and what you have to say, just because you use certain words that they'll never forget.

Starting point is 00:44:13 Well, when you think about how important conversation is to everybody, it's really good to understand what's actually going on underneath the surface and how to better control the conversation to have it go your way. Marianne Kerinch has been my guest. The book is called Control the Conversation, How to Charm, Deflect, and Defend Your Position Through Any Line of Questioning. There's a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks, Marianne. Thanks for being here. Oh, thank you, Mike. What makes a man attractive to a woman? Well, probably lots of things, but one thing you probably haven't heard much about is altruism. Women seem to find altruism in men to be very

Starting point is 00:45:00 appealing. In short, men who display helping behaviors are generally perceived as more attractive than men who do not. But new research dug a little deeper and found a few interesting nuggets. Men who displayed altruism were found to be more attractive by women looking for long-term relationships. When it came to short-term relationships, non-altruistic men were in fact more desirable than altruistic men. Altruism appeared to be even more appealing than physical attractiveness when it came to long-term relationships. Unattractive men who were high in altruism were actually rated more attractive for long-term relationships than attractive men who rated low in altruism. Of course, this was the result of an experiment, research,

Starting point is 00:45:52 which doesn't necessarily prove it's always true in real life. But for some men, it could be an easy way to gain an edge over the more self-oriented guys out there. And that is something you should know. Remember, if you hear an advertisement for one of our sponsors that sounds interesting to you, all of the links and promo codes for discounts and special offers

Starting point is 00:46:15 are in the show notes for this episode. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Do you love Disney? Do you love top 10 lists? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial.

Starting point is 00:46:30 And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. The parks, the movies, the music, the food, the lore. There is nothing we don't cover on our show. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed. I had Danielle and Megan record some answers to seemingly meaningless questions. I asked Danielle, what insect song is typically higher pitched in hotter temperatures and

Starting point is 00:47:00 lower pitched in cooler temperatures? You got this. No, I didn't. Don't believe that. About a witch coming true? Well, I didn't. Don't believe that. About a witch coming true? Well, I didn't either. Of course, I'm just a cicada. I'm crying.

Starting point is 00:47:12 I'm so sorry. You win that one. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Rob Benedict. And I am Richard Spate. We were both on a little show you might know called Supernatural. It had a pretty good run, 15 seasons, 327 episodes. And though we have seen, of course, every episode many times, we figured, hey, now that we're wrapped, let's watch it all again. And we can't do that alone. So we're inviting the cast and crew that made the show along for the ride.

Starting point is 00:47:48 We've got writers, producers, composers, directors, and we'll of course have some actors on as well including some certain guys that played some certain pretty iconic brothers. It was kind of a little bit of a left field choice in the best way possible. The note from Kripke was, he's great, we love him, but we're looking for like a really intelligent Duchovny type. With 15 seasons to explore, it's going to be the road trip of several lifetimes.

Starting point is 00:48:14 So please join us and subscribe to Supernatural then and now.

Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: Being Wealthy vs Rich & Mastering Conversation

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