Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: Fascinating Benefits of Insects & Having Everything is Rarely Enough

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Starting point is 00:00:17 You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, next time you get a cough, something in your kitchen has been proven to help more than any over-the-counter medicine. Then, bugs, insects. You depend on them more than you know. Insects are in everything we

Starting point is 00:00:47 think of. We're eating them. They're on our bodies. And in fact, insects may, this may be gut-churning for some of your listeners, but may be the future of the world's food supply. Also, how to get that last little bit out of the jar or tube, and whether or not it's even worth it, and why having everything isn't all it's cracked up to be. In fact, too much success can be hard to live with. What is the fragility that happens? You know, failure is different than success, because in failure, we can constantly live in hope. When we live in a place of extraordinary success, we live in constant fear that we're going to fall off our perch. All this today on Something You Should Know.

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Starting point is 00:02:15 Hey, welcome to Something You Should Know. As I sit here recording this today, it is 108 degrees outside my window. And and there's just there's something about this kind of heat that just makes you want to do nothing. But the show must go on and today's episode starts with some advice for the next time you get a cold or a cough. Try honey. New research shows that honey is more effective at treating cough and cold than antibiotics or over-the-counter medication. Experts at Oxford University said doctors are better off telling patients to have a spoonful of honey rather than prescribing antibiotics.

Starting point is 00:02:58 Overall, honey was found to be superior at relieving coughs, sore throat, and congestion. And unlike other medications, it has no harmful side effects. Specifically, honey, on average, was 36% more effective at reducing cough frequency than common medications, and it cut cough severity by 44% more. The reason it works is apparently because, well, first of all, it contains hydrogen peroxide, which gives it antimicrobial properties. And it's because of that that it's been used in traditional medicine as a topical antibiotic for centuries. And secondly, because it is thick and sticky, honey has a soothing effect on the throat that can reduce irritation and help relieve a dry, tickly cough.

Starting point is 00:03:47 And you don't have to eat it straight if you don't like the taste of just eating pure honey. Even putting it in tea helps. And that is something you should know. You don't have to go far to find insects. They're everywhere. And you probably think of them more as pests than anything else. But insects actually do a lot of wonderful and amazing things. In fact, your life would be very hard without some of these insects.

Starting point is 00:04:18 Insects are also a food source. There's a good chance you've eaten an insect recently, or parts of one, or the secretions of one. And yeah, that sounds kind of gross, but insects are important in many ways and becoming more important. Here to explain is Edward Melillo. He's a professor of history and environmental studies at Amherst College, and he's author of the book, The Butterfly Effect, Insects and the Making of the Modern World. Hi, Professor. Thanks for having me.

Starting point is 00:04:51 So when I think of insects, just generally think about them, I don't think of them as being a big help, helping humanity and helping the world at all. When we think of insects, we think of problems that they cause. We think of diseases, Zika, West Nile virus, yellow fever, malaria, dengue fever, that have been the scourges of humans throughout world history. And we think of insects plaguing crops. The world's farmers spend something on the order of $16 billion annually on insecticides. And so that's the traditional view of insects. But I began investigating the other side of the story and wanted to tell that tale, which is that essentially insects are in

Starting point is 00:05:41 everything we think of as resolutely modern. In fact, we're eating them. They're on our bodies. Most genetic science is totally dependent on studies done on the fruit fly. Pollination is a major contribution that insects make to our daily lives. Something like one in every three bites of food that the average human takes comes from a plant that was actually pollinated by an insect. And in fact, insects may, and this may be gut-churning for some of your listeners, but may be the future of the world's food supply. Ooh, yum. Sounds tasty. So the definition of an insect is what? An insect has six things that you want to think about when you're thinking about what is an insect.

Starting point is 00:06:31 Well, first it has a three-part body. It's got a head, a thorax, and an exoskeleton. The skeleton on an insect is on the outside. That exoskeleton is usually semi-transparent. Light can shine through it. Thirdly, all insects have three pairs of jointed legs. So everything with six legs is an insect. So the spider you see crawling around your bathroom is not an insect. It's an arachnid. But insects all have six legs. They've all got antenna. That's the fourth thing. They all have compound eyes made up of multiple facets, kind of like a gem, which is a great advantage when you're either pursuing prey or running from predators, because you can see almost 360 degrees around you.

Starting point is 00:07:24 And all insects have two pairs of wings. And so that's what makes an insect an insect. When you look at all the different varieties of insects, are you able to say they all have a purpose? I'm sure everyone has sat around and been bitten by a mosquito and thought, why do we even have them? Why are they here? What purpose do they serve? And I wondered, do they all have a function and a purpose for the world, or are they often just pests? Yeah, I mean, a lot of them have purposes and functions that kind of go unannounced that we don't see all the time,

Starting point is 00:08:03 because insects have a way of not only hiding under the trash can and behind the fridge, but a lot of what they do is underground, in the grass, and out of sight. And many insects that we might think of as not having any purpose, so to speak, are doing really important things like they're breaking down organic matter. We call that decay, which is really vital to the way that the world functions, because if you can't break down organic matter and return those nutrients to the soil, then everything stops. Farming is impossible, and most ecosystems can't survive. So a lot of the times, the things that insects do are out of sight.

Starting point is 00:08:45 Some beetles are involved as are flies in breaking down the dead bodies of creatures after they die in the wilderness. And other insects are doing all sorts of things that we don't think about on a day-to-day basis, but they're producing components of our food system. And they're in everything, ubiquitous day-to-day products like nail polish and hairspray. And insect secretions used to be on the floors of bowling alleys, and 78 RPM records were made out of an insect secretion. And people dyed their clothes with insects. So it's sort of a tale of all the things that insects are doing that are unannounced, that we don't think about on a daily basis. So I guess to sort of sum it up, to answer your question,

Starting point is 00:09:35 yes, a lot of insects have purposes for the functioning of the world that we never see, remark upon, or think about. Bees are insects, right? Yes, bees are insects, and without them we'd be in real trouble. I actually have done a lot of thinking about how important bees are to the almond crop in California, which is, of course, absolutely massive, and it depends on billions of bees pollinating it every year. And they're actually shipped in crates from long distances away on trucks every year in the fall to pollinate

Starting point is 00:10:18 California's massive almond crop, which is actually the United States' seventh largest agricultural export. And without those bee pollinators, you know, these millions of almond trees would not be able to produce a single nut. So when you're on an airplane next time and you're opening that little bag of almonds, you might think about the fact that there was an insect involved in its coming to fruition, quite literally. There's been talk, I've certainly read and heard things about the concern about bees disappearing. What is that about? The big picture story is that upwards of 40% of insect species are in decline,

Starting point is 00:11:02 and about a third are endangered globally. And in the specific case of bees, we're talking about colony collapse disorder, which is a phenomenon identified first in 2007. And it's shown up in terms of the massive declines in numbers in many hives that apiaries and beekeepers keep for pollinating flowering crops around the world. And there are a couple possible causes of this. The science is not conclusive yet, but one of them is a parasitic mite with the great name Varroa destructor. Sounds like a creature out of a science fiction film, but it actually sucks out the hemolymph from bees, which is like their blood, and ends up killing bees in their hive. But then the other big culprit seems to be a class of

Starting point is 00:11:59 pesticides that are called neonicotinoids, or neonicts for short. And what these pesticides do, these insecticides to be specific, is they kill insects to protect plants of farmers' crops, but they also seem to be destroying the beneficial ones as well. And there are compounds that mimic nicotine, of course comes from tobacco, but they seem to be really destructive for bee populations. And one of our real concerns is that, you know, without this essential pollinator, we're going to be in real trouble trying to produce food from flowering plants in the future. Most pollinators are bees. There's some 20,000 species of wild bees, but we depend upon

Starting point is 00:12:43 domesticated bees to do all this work, and without them we'd be in real trouble. So bugs are figuratively on the table, insects to be exact, on the table for discussion. And I'm talking with Edward Malillo. He's a professor of history and environmental studies at Amherst College, and he is author of the book, The Butterfly Effect. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a co is author of the book, The Butterfly Effect. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a co-founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lightning, a fantasy adventure series

Starting point is 00:13:21 about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. During her journey, Isla meets new friends, including King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, and learns valuable life lessons with every quest, sword fight, and dragon ride. Positive and uplifting stories remind us all about the importance of kindness, friendship, honesty, and positivity. Join me and an all-star cast of actors, including Liam Neeson, Emily Blunt, Kristen Bell, Chris Hemsworth, among many others, in welcoming the Search for the Silver Lining

Starting point is 00:13:50 podcast to the Go Kid Go network by listening today. Look for the Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years.

Starting point is 00:14:29 She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, Edward, can you talk about some of the ways that

Starting point is 00:15:14 humans have used bugs to their advantage? You had mentioned, you know, 78 records and some, just go through some of those and very and, um, very quickly and talk about how we've kind of harnessed bugs and put them to work. So this is the thing that got me fascinated in this topic from, from the get-go, um, is that I started to look into three insect commodities that I argued animated world history in many ways. And they're a bit surprising, shellac, cochineal, and silk. I'll talk about the second one in a little depth because your listeners may not have heard of it. Shellac you may have heard of because people are used to thinking about shellacking their deck or shellacking a piece of furniture, indeed, that's what it is. It's a substance that's secreted by

Starting point is 00:16:06 the Keralaka insect that grows in India and Southeast Asia on fig and acacia trees. And millions of people make their living by harvesting this tiny insect and its secretion. The mother secretes the shellac to protect her young. And it basically is like sort of bumps of waxy-looking stuff that surrounds a branch on these trees. Then the branch gets cut. Shellac is scraped off. It's melted down, then dried and stretched out. And then sold in chips. And those chips are then turned into all sorts of products

Starting point is 00:16:49 that you probably don't know you're eating and putting on your body, but as it turns out, they're everywhere. One of the places that shellac is used is to coat tablets and medicines that go into your stomach. And it's a non-toxic substance that then slows down the digestion of, say, aspirin in your stomach so that the medicine is released slowly in the body. So you're probably eating an insect secretion. It's on fruit from the grocery store.

Starting point is 00:17:22 Apples are often made to look more shiny and to hold their water for longer on grocery store shelves by putting shellac on the outside. The next one that I mentioned is cochineal, which is kind of a strange word, hard to pronounce. I always tell my students the mnemonic device is, can you coach an eel, which you probably can't, but that's how you remember how to say it. And it's a red dye that's made from crushing the bodies of female insects that grow on nopal cacti in Latin America. And it's an amazing substance. You'll see it on ingredient lists on products that you may have on a daily basis, like this ruby red grapefruit juice or fruit on the bottom yogurt, or a lot of drink mixers like Campari used to use it to get the deep dark red color.

Starting point is 00:18:18 And it's an insect secretion that was so lucrative that it was the second most expensive traded good in the Spanish Empire after only silver. And everyone was after it because it produces this deep scarlet red that everyone in Europe wanted because for ecclesiastical vestments and royal robes, people wanted that deep red color. It was the color of power. And then lastly, the third that I mentioned is one that may be more familiar to your listeners, silk, which, of course, is ubiquitous in high fashion and in low fashion in other places, too. I mean, many, many traditional costumes in countries around the world are made from silk, which of course is spun by silkworms that are dining on mulberry leaves and then are harvested for their cocoons. So those are examples of sort of products that are around us every day.

Starting point is 00:19:18 We might put on a silk tie. We might eat something that has cochineal in it. We might eat shellac, even in candy. If a kid goes trick-or-treating on Halloween, they're probably eating candy that's coated in an insect secretion without even knowing it. So I get that insects are used in food for their color or for other reasons, and people don't even know they're eating insects. But are there places in the world where people, like, want to eat insects? Like, we want to eat hamburgers and french fries. They want to eat bugs.

Starting point is 00:19:52 It's truly amazing. Globally, about 2 billion people consume insects on a regular basis, just as a normal part of their daily diet. And to us in the West, it may seem odd and even revolting, but this is such a normal part of most people's diets. And it turns out that eating insects may also kind of be part of the future because it's so much more efficient to get your protein from insects than it is from other kinds of meat. And that's where the sort of the pundits and the prognosticators who are betting on how we're going to feed 9 billion people on the planet by 2050

Starting point is 00:20:34 are thinking insects are going to have to be a big, big part of that. And you see that in the way that the investment is being done. I mean, Bill Gates, Biz Stone, one of the Twitter co-founders, Mark Cuban, the billionaire whom people may know from Shark Tank, they've all put their money into cricket meal, which is essentially freeze-dried cricket bodies ground up into flour. And if you go on Amazon or any of these websites, you can buy all sorts of different varieties of mixes for everything from brownies and pancakes and cupcakes to you name it made out of cricket flour. And the reason for that is it's just really efficient. To produce one pound of crickets, you need a gallon of water and about two cubic feet of space. And let's compare that. If you want to produce one

Starting point is 00:21:27 pound of beef in the United States, you need a thousand gallons of water and two acres of grazing land. And it turns out the pound of crickets has three times the amount of protein, more iron, and more vitamins than the beef. So if you're thinking about efficiency, this is probably the way that the future of food is going to go. While you were talking, I was looking up on Amazon to see cricket flour, and it's amazing how many cricket products, cricket, edible crickets, there are that you can buy on Amazon. So it's one thing, though, to do this for efficiency, but are there cultures where people really look forward to, like they really want, not because it's efficient, but because it's delicious, they want these insects?

Starting point is 00:22:18 There's almost no culture on the planet where there isn't a major insect dish at the heart of the cuisine, in fact. And I'll admit to having tried a few of these, and I have some that I like better than others. But just to give you some examples, in Mexico, it's very common to eat chapulines, which are essentially fried crickets, often served with a lot of chili and lime, and they just really taste like crunchy corn chips, basically. And these have become so popular, even in the United States, that at a lot of baseball stadiums, they're now served as part of the game time snacks. Safeco Field, where the Seattle Mariners play, now has featured chapulines on the menu for baseball fans for several years now. And ESPN did a story on this about the resounding popularity that these little insect snacks have had among baseball fans.

Starting point is 00:23:19 In Japan, they eat zazamushi, which are insects that are scooped from riverbeds, insect larvae. In South Africa, it's really common to eat mopanis, which are mopane caterpillars. In fact, Malawi's president, Hastings Banda, was known for carrying pocketfuls of these around and handing them out to children when he was traveling through various villages. He was a rather unsavory character, unfortunately, in terms of his politics, but he was known for handing out insect treats to kids. In Thailand, they eat giant water bugs that are often fried up with sauces and are on every menu. And in Korea, you can find bondegi, which are fried silkworm pupae that are either boiled and steamed or fried in oil, and they eat them in styrofoam cups with toothpicks

Starting point is 00:24:17 like they're little street snacks. And I've tried my share of all of these. I appreciate some more than others. So I have my own personal biases. But these are the mainstays of many cuisines. And it's really not considered at all odd to be eating insects as a centerpiece of your dining habits. And do they actually, like, can you taste the insect? Like, oh, that's a silkworm because that tastes like that, like we do chicken or... Or is it just a vehicle for sauces and things like that? No, you can actually taste the insect in some of these,

Starting point is 00:25:01 and I'm sure, you know, many of them are required tastes just the way many foods that we consider, you know, commonplace in our own diets are certainly acquired tastes. Like, you know, I have friends from China who think that cereal with milk is the most odd combination when they come to the U.S. for the first time. And conversely, you know, when I ate Mondegi, it was actually in San Francisco's Koreatown, it's a bit like a cross between a shrimp and a peanut. And it's an odd taste at first to get used to because it doesn't feel quite right in your mouth. You're sort of figuring out what's going on here. And, you know, I didn't happen to enjoy that particular combination, but I know some people absolutely love it.

Starting point is 00:25:47 So the insect itself often imparts a taste. Sometimes, like with chapulines, it's sort of, yeah, you're right, it's a vector for the sauce and the coatings. But in other cases, I've eaten a mother termite, actually. And in that case, you could really, the crunch to goo ratio wasn't quite right for my palate. And I could certainly taste the insect, but, you know, some people consider it a culinary delight. You know, this is a very popular podcast. We have millions of people listen to this podcast, and I bet there isn't a single one of them listening right now who ever heard anyone say the sentence out loud, I've eaten the mother termite, and the crunch to goo ratio

Starting point is 00:26:32 wasn't quite right. Yuck. All right. Edward Melillo has been my guest. He is a professor of history and environmental studies at Amherst College, and he's author of the book The Butterfly Effect, Insects and the Making of the Modern World. There's a link to that book in the show notes, and thanks for sharing the stories.

Starting point is 00:26:58 Appreciate it, Edward. Sure. Thanks so much for interviewing me. This has been a real pleasure chatting with you. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more.

Starting point is 00:27:32 A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes,

Starting point is 00:28:30 Disney themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. I think you would agree that we live in a very consumer-driven society. We want more, we want better, and it's never quite enough. No matter how much money we make or how many toys we have, we still want more. Now some might say, what's wrong with that? Why not want to constantly do better and have more? Whereas others see this as a problem, because if you always want more, you're never satisfied with what you have now.

Starting point is 00:29:10 Here to pull the covers back on this interesting quirk of human nature is Paul Hockemeyer. He is a licensed marriage and family therapist who specializes in treating ultra-high net worth individuals and celebrities. And he's author of the book, Fragile Power, Why Having Everything is Never Enough, Lessons from Treating the Wealthy and Famous. Hi, Paul. Welcome to Something You Should Know. Thank you. It's good to be here. So there is this idea or this image of people wanting more, that it's never enough,

Starting point is 00:29:43 as opposed to people who are satisfied with what they have and they're grateful for what they have. But why can't you do both? Why can't you be grateful for what you have but still want more? Well, you certainly can. It's tricky. That's the key. There's nothing wrong with aspiration.

Starting point is 00:30:02 There's nothing wrong with wanting to aspire to better. In fact, I think we should all be aspiring to better, but we need to make sure that it's a balance, that we are not compulsively in this compulsive hamster wheel of looking for more and more and more. I mean, look, human beings are, we are hunter-gatherers, so we are built to go out into the world and gather nuts and berries and bring them home and build comfortable nests. And, you know, we are living in somewhat of a problem-saturated world, actually, right now with COVID, I think very much a problem-saturated world. But we're very adaptive, and it's through our aspirations and it's through our ambition that we will get through this and we will make the world a better place. I think, though, for many people, the idea that you should just be grateful for what you have, that you shouldn't want more, you shouldn't want better, really, I mean, that is the definition of ambition is to want more and to do better. And when you say, well, you should just be grateful for what you have, I think that turns a lot of people off because we want to win. That's human nature to want to win. Well, I agree with you 100%. And I'm not saying be happy with what you have. I think

Starting point is 00:31:16 that we should all be striving for better and for more. But I think that we need to focus on the qualitative aspects of our life, peace of mind, serenity, values that we have gotten away from in terms of being generous to other people, in terms of being able to store our planet, in terms of being charitable to other human beings, instead of constantly thinking that we need a bigger house or a European sports car or a designer handbag. What do we know from the people who have gotten everything, you know, the billionaires and the millionaires? I've heard stories that, you know, it's never enough for them, and they're kind of the ones we look to of, God, if I could only have that, then everything would be fine.

Starting point is 00:32:02 And you have experience with some of those people, so talk about that. Well, the people who really have made the most out of their wealth are people who have been able to give back to the community in some significant way. And we're living in a profoundly divided world. The gulf between the haves and the have-nots is extraordinarily wide. And the people who have been able to use their success in a way that gives them the most meaning in their lives is by connecting with people who have less than and people who have been providing services and resources to help people who are less fortunate than them. So it's this spirit of altruism that is a human value, it's a human virtue,

Starting point is 00:32:48 it transcends cultures, it transcends times, it transcends race, that people who have been profoundly successful in the material world have been able to translate into happiness and contentedness and peace of mind. But not because of their wealth. Well, not exclusively, right? It's not an all-or-nothing thing. We always want to put thing in a binary, right? But it's their ability to integrate their wealth and utilize their wealth

Starting point is 00:33:19 in a way that gives their wealth meaning and purpose. And where does that meaning and purpose come from? If you've spent your whole life focused on the European sports car and the bigger house, where do you get a meaning and a purpose? Well, you have to find it. Those are typically the people who I see in my practice who have attained extraordinarily high levels of success, but they feel, oh my God, like my life has passed me by.

Starting point is 00:33:47 I have a terrible relationship with my children. I really don't have any close friends who I can count on, who aren't coming to me for anything other than my money. And so they experience what's called an existential crisis in their life. They have a crisis of meaning. And so there they are at the top of the hill surrounded by all of their toys, and they're profoundly alone. And they are looking at kind of the last phase of their life and thinking, oh my goodness, I spent all my time and resources

Starting point is 00:34:18 to get to this top of the hill and to stay at the top of the hill and to surround myself by the toys. But I don't have any of what we call the upholstery in life. So the things that provide comfort and meaning and direction and purpose. And look, in addition to being hunter-gatherers, we are meaning-making creatures. Out of all the animals, we have the most developed prefrontal cortex, the front of our brain, that enables us to make meaning out of our lives. And we all want to make meaning out of our lives, right?

Starting point is 00:34:50 We all want to know that we have done something important and significant on the limited amount of time that we have on this earth. So talk about, I mean, I remember talking to someone, I don't remember who it was, very successful, well-known, big celebrity successful kind of guy, who said, in commenting about this whole thing about work-life balance, and he said, you know what, I missed a lot of baseball games, Little League games. I didn't go to all the track meets. I did work weekends, and I don't regret a minute of it, that my meaning came from my work. I loved what I did. And this idea that if you feel that way, there's something wrong with you, he said, I believe, is baloney. Good for him.

Starting point is 00:35:49 He certainly has found meaning and purpose in his life and is contented with his life. Look, there isn't a, you know, 100% fits all, this is for everybody, right? I mean, we have to create meaning individually in our lives. And we do get into trouble when we look to other kind of dominant cultural messages to tell us who we should be and how we should be happy. So kudos to the person who you talked to who, you know, devoted his resources in a way that gave him the most meaning and purpose in his life. But again, it's not for everybody. And, you know, we need to get away from trying to put everybody in this one-size-fits-all. We have to recognize what's important to us in our lives and then pursue those goals. And what we have gotten into, I'm afraid, particularly with the advent of, say, reality television and the Internet,

Starting point is 00:36:45 is looking at veneers and looking at the veneers of success and thinking that those are the things that are going to give us pleasure and happiness. But life is not meant to be lived by observing others. It's meant to be a process that we engage in ourselves and experiment with and find our own path and find our own direction. And more recently, there's been all these reality shows about reality stars and movie stars and how they live their life and wouldn't it be nice. It almost seems human nature to want to view that and maybe secretly aspire to that. It is 100%. And if you look at our worship of celebrity, it transcends times, it transcends cultures. We can go back to the Greek gods. They were our first celebrities, right? Those were the larger

Starting point is 00:37:52 than life figures who enabled us to find meaning and purpose and direction in our lives. And we get that from looking at celebrities. And celebrities give us an extraordinary escape from the challenges of our own particular life. They give us role models to aspire to. And as you mentioned quite early in our conversation, there's nothing wrong with aspiration. And we need to be aspirational, and we need to be striving for better.

Starting point is 00:38:23 And celebrities enable us to do that. So there's an element of escape. There's an element of hope, right, so that we think that maybe one day we can have those particular lives. And it enables us to keep striving for something better. And human beings are, we are hierarchical. We like to arrange ourselves in hierarchies, and we like to be led by charismatic leaders. So it's hardwired into our DNA, and it appeals very much to our sense of place and security and how we make meaning in our world. But then when those things don't happen,

Starting point is 00:39:05 when you don't get the mansion in Beverly Hills and you don't get the billion-dollar bank account, is that a problem? Or do people just adjust or say, well, you know, I missed that one, but that's okay, life's good? I mean, is all this aspiration leading to a big letdown? It can be if you haven't, if you've been very singularly focused, if you haven't developed quality relationships in your life that give your life the upholstery

Starting point is 00:39:40 and give your life the comfort and give your life the meaning. So, again, it's a balance. We kind of always have to go back to these things are not new, right? These are not new concepts that we need to have balance in our life. That, yes, we need to be striving for better. And, yes, we need to appreciate what we have in our present. And most importantly, we need to have quality connections with other human beings that we feel proud of and that give our life meanings.

Starting point is 00:40:11 If you typically ask parents, for instance, what are you most proud of, it's their children. You know, being a parent is extraordinarily gratifying. So maybe there are people who would say my BMW or my handbag, but those people are going to be the exception as opposed to the rule. But again, you can have all those friends and relationships and have a BMW as well. It's not either or. Exactly. And I don't think I'm saying that. If I'm saying that to you, I'm not saying the right thing, that I agree with you 100%, that it's a balance, it's titration. There is that. I mean, I think everybody has at some point in their life, if they're old enough, you know, taken the limo, gone to that real exclusive restaurant, stayed in a really fancy hotel. And it's pretty nice, you know, that you get treated really well and you feel very special. And, you know, it's kind of hard to go back to your old life the next day

Starting point is 00:41:17 when you've had that little taste of glamour. But some people go back to life and everything's fine. But I guess it's almost that taste is very, very tempting. It's seductive and it's intoxicating and it can be an addictive process. So when we go to a fancy restaurant, we're treated like royalty, right? Because we're paying a lot of money and that taps into something very primal in us as human beings, which is this need to be seen and validated by other human beings, because we are relational creatures.

Starting point is 00:41:53 And so when we're validated and seen as special, boy, that taps very much into our primal brain and shoots us full of all sorts of wonderful hormones, dopamine, oxytocin, and it certainly elevates us, and some people can get addicted to that. And they just kind of want more and more and more of it, and they strive and strive and strive and become very singularly focused on doing that. I imagine that social media doesn't help this at all, because everybody's wanting to put on a good face and everybody wants to let everybody know how great they are and successful they are and how wonderful this thing is that happened to me recently.

Starting point is 00:42:34 And when you preoccupy yourself with putting on that face, I imagine that contributes to this whole problem. Very much so. It's that focus on the veneer. And then social media is very tied to numbers, right? So I have an Instagram account and I have a thousand people who follow me. Well, that's not enough because Khloe Kardashian has 2.5 million. And so there's this chronic need to determine one's self-worth by how many likes you have or how many people are following you. And that becomes very much a slippery slope, doesn't it? Because then you are tied to what we just talked about,

Starting point is 00:43:20 which is this concept of tolerance, right? So if I have a thousand followers on my Instagram account, that's not enough. I need to have 5,000 and then I need to have 30,000. And then if I don't get, if I post something and I only get a hundred likes, then I have a sense of withdrawal because, well, wait a minute, last week I posted something and I had 500 likes. So again, it's tying one's sense of self and one's validity to these external markers of success. have everything. And if you have everything, well, that implies that you have everything. So, but when you do have everything, how does it look from there? Well, there's a fragility that happens with people who have attained extraordinary levels of power so that we don't fully appreciate the vulnerability where they live in. And, you know, failure is different than success because in failure we can constantly live in hope, right? We can constantly even live in hope that tomorrow will be a different day

Starting point is 00:44:34 and we can keep tweaking ourselves and getting it better and finally achieve the levels of success that we want. When we live in a place of extraordinary success, we live in constant fear that we're going to fall off our perch or the success that we have is not sustainable. So it's two very different paradigms to live in. In failure, we can live in hope, and in extraordinary success, we tend to live in fear that we're going to lose what we have.

Starting point is 00:45:05 And in that place of fear, there's the fragility that underlines the power that we present to the world. It's hard to see that, I think, for people that if you have, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars, a billion dollars in the bank, how you could ever worry about falling off your perch because you couldn't spend it fast enough. That's right. Yeah, and so again, the answer is not sort of in the quantitative aspect. It's not in the dollars. It's in the quality of the relationships that you have with other human beings.

Starting point is 00:45:40 Well, in a way, it's weirdly comforting to know that having everything isn't everything. It's not all it's cracked up to be. And to strive to have everything, to have all the toys and the money, it may be good, but there are other things that are just as important that need your attention as well. Paul Hockenmeyer has been my guest. He's a licensed marriage and family therapist who specializes in treating high net worth individuals and celebrities. And he's author of the book, Fragile Power, Why Having Everything is Never Enough. And there's a link to that book in the show notes.

Starting point is 00:46:14 Thank you for coming on, Paul. It is a universal frustration, I think, to try to get that last little bit of whatever it is out of the bottle. Skin lotion, mustard, ketchup. It's always tough to get that last little bit. Consumer Reports did a test, and here's what they found. Skin lotion is the worst. That's because you can leave up to one-fifth of the entire contents of the bottle inaccessible because the lotion sticks to the side of the container.

Starting point is 00:46:48 The remedy is to add a little bit of water and shake or carefully cut open the container and scoop it out. Mustard and ketchup are also tough, and again, the answer is to just add a little water. For toothpaste, it turns out that a toothpaste squeezer can be effective and will eventually, I'm not sure how long, but eventually it will pay for itself in the amount of toothpaste that you save and then therefore don't have to buy. Consumer Reports also measured whether products actually pack the amount of product in the container that they claim to.

Starting point is 00:47:27 And it turns out they do. And that is something you should know. I love ratings and reviews, and we've been getting some very nice ones lately. Please feel free to add yours to the list and leave a rating and review wherever you listen to this podcast. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Hey, hey, are you ready for some real talk and some fantastic laughs? Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa D. Montz, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong?

Starting point is 00:47:56 We're serving up four hilarious shows every week designed to entertain and engage and, you know, possibly enrage you. In Don't Blame Me, we dive deep into listeners' questions, offering advice that's funny, relatable, and engage, and possibly enrage you. And don't blame me. We dive deep into listeners' questions, offering advice that's funny, relatable, and real. Whether you're dealing with relationship drama or you just need a friend's perspective, we've got you. Then switch gears with But Am I Wrong?, which is for listeners who didn't take our advice

Starting point is 00:48:17 and want to know if they are the villains in the situation. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events and present situations that we might even be wrong in our lives. Spoiler alert, we are actually quite literally never wrong. But wait, there's more. Check out See You Next Tuesday, where we reveal the juicy results from our listener polls from But Am I Wrong? And don't miss Fisting Friday, where we catch up, chat about pop culture, TV and movies. It's the perfect way to kick off your weekend. So if you're looking for a podcast that feels like a chat with your besties,

Starting point is 00:48:46 listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple,

Starting point is 00:49:21 or wherever you get your podcasts.

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