Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: Happiness Through Decluttering & The Magic of Calculus You Use Everyday

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Starting point is 00:00:17 You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, how holding a little cash in your hand can make you feel so much better. Then, organizing your space can change your life, and you'll get some expert advice on exactly how to do it. In my house, no one can be bothered to hang up their coats. We just, clearly this is just too taxing and overwhelming.

Starting point is 00:00:51 So finally it dawned on me to get hooks, and we actually use the hooks. It's just that much easier to use a hook than a hanger. Plus why you should probably never hug your dog. And calculus may be the hardest class in high school, but it's responsible for cell phones, TV, the fight against AIDS, and so much more. When you go home tonight if you get lost and you need your GPS to tell you how to find the right way home, GPS is a wonder of calculus, but we're not aware of that. I mean, for us, it's just this gadget that seems to know how to get anywhere from anywhere, but it's using all kinds of math.

Starting point is 00:01:25 All this today on Something You Should Know. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like Something You Should Know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman

Starting point is 00:01:56 who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named the Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back. And in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed, critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show.

Starting point is 00:02:32 There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. You know, I've noticed, I guess it's ever since the pandemic and stores have been short of coins, but I've noticed that I just don't use cash that much anymore. I just use a card most of the time, and it does seem to be the preferred method anyway. Stores seem to

Starting point is 00:03:12 not want to do cash because they don't have much of it. And in some ways, it's too bad because money, cash, can actually make you feel good, even if it's not your money. This is really interesting. In a study, two groups of people were asked to count pieces of paper. One group counted real paper money, and the other group counted blank pieces of paper. Those who counted the money knew they were not going to get to keep it. After the counting was over, the people who counted the money showed some fascinating results. When the participants' hands were placed in cups of very hot water, the money handlers rated the experience as merely unpleasant, whereas those people counting blank sheets of paper found the same water unbearable.

Starting point is 00:04:08 Those who counted the money were able to handle emotional stress better. And the money handlers also reported a sense of well-being at a much higher level than the other group. The effects lasted about 20 minutes. So if you're feeling a bit down, researchers say try taking out a wad of cash for a while and see if you don't feel better. And that is something you should know. You've no doubt noticed that as you go through life, you accumulate stuff, things, possessions. And before you know it, if you're not careful,

Starting point is 00:04:38 your home and or office is full of stuff, what you might call clutter. Some people are pretty good at keeping clutter under control. Others of us, not so much. And we've talked before on this podcast about the connection between clutter and stress and how the lack of clutter can reduce stress and increase happiness. And no one knows more about this than Gretchen Rubin. Gretchen is the host of the podcast Happier with Gretchen Rubin. She's the author of several books about happiness. And her new book is Outer Order, Inner Calm, Declutter and Organize to Make Room for Happiness.

Starting point is 00:05:17 And she's about to offer you some great common sense advice for creating order and calmness in your life by getting a handle on the stuff you have. Hey Gretchen, welcome. I'm so happy to be talking to you. Great, so let's start by connecting the dots and explain to me what the connection is between clutter and happiness and tie that all together. Well, it's just one thing that I've noticed in my, you know, I've been studying happiness and good habits in human nature for years. And I just noticed over and over how people would talk about how decluttering and organizing just had this kind of disproportionate effect on their feelings of calm and energy and focus. Somebody said to me, I finally cleaned out my fridge and now I know I can switch

Starting point is 00:06:05 careers. And I knew exactly how that felt. There's something inexplicable about it because we can all agree that in the context of a happy, productive life, something like a crowded coat closet or a messy desk is trivial. And yet over and over, people say that when they feel that when they get more control of the stuff in feel that when they get more control of the stuff in their lives, they feel more control of their lives generally. And I certainly feel this way myself. And I was just always very intrigued by that connection. So in my book, I wanted to go, I wanted to explore that. And then also, well, if you want Outer Order, how do you get it? And how do you maintain it? And so when you explore that, did you find that that feeling applies to most people or are there people who are just fine in a mess?

Starting point is 00:06:53 There are some people, I call them clutter blind. There are some people who it just doesn't, they just don't care. My sister Elizabeth, I have the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast and my co-host is my sister Elizabeth. And Elizabeth just doesn't care. And I mean, I've seen this. People are always like, oh, but you would feel better. And it's like, she really doesn't care. Now she has to pay attention to it because she lives with other people and they care. So, but if she lived by herself, she would never close the kitchen cabinet door again, as long as she lived. So I think there are a small number of people. And I

Starting point is 00:07:21 think we, you know, they're, they're pretty conspicuous, who don't care. But for most people, it does make them feel calmer and more focused. And so, you know, people say to me, like, well, why should I make my bed? And I'm like, there's no magic to making your bed. If you feel completely indifferent to making your bed or you actually enjoy not making your bed, then don't do it. But for most people, it just seems to be the kind of little habit that makes them feel better as they start their day. But you know, and then also some people are simplicity lovers and some people are abundance lovers. So some people want empty counters and a bare desk and not much on the walls. They want simplicity and some people

Starting point is 00:07:59 want abundance and they want profusion and choice and collections and maybe piles. But that's not the same as clutter because clutter is stuff like, I don't even know what this cord goes to. This thing doesn't even work. This umbrella is broken. That's not abundance. That's just stuff that's in our way. But I don't think that there's one place that everybody should end up

Starting point is 00:08:20 or everyone will be happier if they end up in this particular place. There's a huge variation in where we're aiming to get to. Yeah, I think I'm somewhere in the middle because I understand when people say they don't want to make their bed because you just have to get in it again. And I understand why you don't want to shut the cupboard door because guess what, you're just going to open it again in five minutes. So I get that. But I also agree with you that there is something about walking into a home or a place where everything's neat and organized and clean. Yes. I mean, I think most people do feel that way. The problem comes is when people assume, I'm right, you're wrong. And since this makes me feel happier or more productive or more creative,

Starting point is 00:09:04 it will make everybody feel happier, more productive or more creative, it will make everybody feel happier, more productive and creative. So I'm the boss and I say, a cluttered desk means a cluttered mind. In this office, we're going to have a clear desk policy because that's going to make everybody more productive. Is it? No, probably not. Because some people, that isn't how they're at their most productive. There are people who live, they've got tons of piles everywhere. And if you say, hey, find me form 11 B, they put their hand right on it. That works for them. And so I think it is just recognizing that each of us can thrive in a particular environment. And so it's a question of, well, how can I create and maintain the environment that suits me? And if I have to share an environment with other people, we may need to cooperate. But that doesn't mean I'm right, you're wrong, or you're right, I'm wrong. It's like, okay, well, you know, if you don't want to make your bed, you don't have to make your bed. I want to have the bed made, so I'm going to make the bed. There's no magic

Starting point is 00:09:55 one-size-fits-all solution. In theory, when people declutter and get organized, the theory is that that should be it, because now you've decluttered and you've gotten organized. And yet I know I find that it's not just a continual process, but every so often you got to do it all over again. And I suspect that there are better ways to do it than the way I do it. I know there are better ways to do it than the way I do it. So what are some of the mistakes people make and some of the thinking that's wrong that would help? Well, it's definitely easier to keep up than to catch up. And so if what you're doing is sort of

Starting point is 00:10:35 doing a big push, getting everything organized, and then just sort of like letting it all build up again. And so then you've got to have, you know, that's tough. So I do think that once you have created order, it's nice to have habits that will help you maintain it. So you don't have to constantly be sort of coming up in another gigantic push. Some things that can, like a mistake that people make is like putting something down instead of putting it away. Like, oh, here's this thing. I'm just going to open up a cabinet, shove it in there and close it. It's like, okay, no, why is that thing there? If you're like, oh, this is the area in my house where I keep travel things. And so that's where I keep my electrical converters. And that's where I keep my money belt. And that's where I keep my foreign currency. And that's where I keep my maps to foreign countries. That way it's like, I don't remember where I put

Starting point is 00:11:22 the electrical converters, but I know where I would have put it. I would have put it in travel. So, oh, there it is. It's in travel because I didn't just put it down. I put it away. So that makes it easier to know where things go and how to find them. Because certainly one way that Outer Order helps us is by making it easier to find things. American adult spends 55 minutes a day looking for misplaced items. Imagine what you can do with 55 minutes a day. And so, you know, if so, putting things away means that you can retrieve them more easily. One great habit for staying on top of clutter and kind of in the way you were describing is the one minute rule. And this is anything that you can do in less than a minute. Just go ahead and do without delay. This is great for busy people who are like, I don't have any time, energy or money to devote to this. Okay. It's like, well, this is less than a minute. You can just do it as part of your ordinary routine. If you can hang up your coat instead of throwing it over a chair, if you can rip open a letter,

Starting point is 00:12:15 scan it and throw it in the recycling, if you can take this document and put it in the proper folder, if you can put the pen back in the pen cup, and that just gets rid of that sort of scum of clutter that's on the surface of everyday life that just makes us feel overwhelmed and drained. Because once you've created it, you want to keep it going. I think another thing that I do that's very helpful, and it's also helpful in making transitions during your day, like to come down from the workday and enter kind of your home life, is to have a 10 minute closer, which is like 10 minutes before I leave my house, which is like 10 minutes before I leave my house in the morning and 10 minutes before I leave my desk, I will take 10 minutes and just

Starting point is 00:12:51 sort of clean everything up. And this kind of helps you transition. And it also makes it a lot easier to come in in the morning because you're not fighting your way through like the papers and the wrappers and the trash and the, you know, coffee cups of yesterday, you know, you've kind of got a fresh start. And, you know, again, it's 10 minutes. So it's not like, oh my gosh, I'm staying for an hour after my workday is done. It's like, you know, I'm just going to putter around a little bit, get myself organized for the next day. So let's talk about stuff, because if you didn't have the stuff, then it wouldn't be a problem. But we all have a lot of stuff,

Starting point is 00:13:26 so much stuff that many of us have to rent storage lockers somewhere else to keep our stuff because we don't have enough room at home for our stuff. So talk about all this stuff. Well, it's interesting because some people are like, you should get rid of everything. You know, mementos, they don't matter. That's the past. Move on. Everybody would be happier with a capsule wardrobe and one shelf of books. I do not think that is the common experience of mankind. We project our identity into our environment using our possessions.

Starting point is 00:13:59 We use our possessions to remind us of the people and places and activities that we love. We love, many people love objects. They admire them as objects and they delight in them and they want to have them around them. They want to show them to other people. They want to arrange them. And so I think you have to know yourself because again, some people don't want, you know, they're like, eh, I can just get rid of all of it. Okay, well then do, because maybe you just enjoy the beautiful emptiness of the space. But some people, you know, somebody just said to me, I really, really, really love my baby blanket from childhood. Why do I have to get rid of it? I'm like, you don't have to get

Starting point is 00:14:32 rid of it because you love it. It's precious to you. Why would you get rid of something that's precious to you? But you know, the bread maker from five years ago that you, it seemed like a good idea for a birthday present for your husband, but then nobody ever makes bread. Like that's not doing anybody any good. Um, so my test is, do you use it? Do you need it? Do you love it? Because if you don't use it, need it or love it, then why do you have it? And so that's the, those are the possessions to get rid of. Um, it is easy that we all have experienced where it's easy for this stuff to come in. Maybe it's a gift and you don't really like it, but you feel like you have to keep it out of respect for the giver. Maybe it was free. It's very hard for us to resist free things, conference swag, bargains, promo items, hand-me-downs. I mean, I myself have a my weakness is tote bags. I mean, I have so many tote bags and I've gotten rid of like thousands

Starting point is 00:15:21 of tote bags because I cannot resist a tote bag. I don't need that many tote bags. You know, don't take the tote bag. What's the three strike rule? This is really helpful. Okay. There's something called the endowment effect, which means that if we own something, we endow it with more meaning, which means that we have sort of, we're more, once we own something, it's hard to give it away because it seems more valuable because it's ours. And so the, but sometimes you're like, do I want this thing? And what I found is that if three times it's occurred to me to get rid of something, I shouldn't, I shouldn't even make a decision. I should just say, this shows me that I have made the decision and I want to get rid of it. Because

Starting point is 00:16:01 look, if it's a sweater that I wear once a week, I'm not saying to myself, should I get rid of this sweater? No, I use that sweater all the time. But if I keep saying to myself, what about this sweater, this bright, this super bright pink sweater? Should I get rid of it? Should I give this thing away or should I keep it? I'll keep it. Should I get rid of this thing or should I keep it?

Starting point is 00:16:17 I'll keep it. The third time I think, should I give this thing away? I've answered my own question. Because if you need, use, or love something, it doesn't constantly occur to you to give it away or toss it or recycle it. So three strikes, decisions made. I've thought about it so much. I know my answer. Gretchen Rubin is my guest and she is host of the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast and author of the book

Starting point is 00:16:46 Outer Order, Inner Calm. Hi, this is Rob Benedict. And I am Richard Spate. We were both on a little show you might know called Supernatural. It had a pretty good run, 15 seasons, 327 episodes. And though we have seen, of course, every episode many times, we figured, hey, now that we're wrapped, let's watch it all again. And we can't do that alone. So we're inviting the cast and crew that made the show along for the ride. We've got writers,

Starting point is 00:17:16 producers, composers, directors, and we'll of course have some actors on as well, including some certain guys that played some certain pretty iconic brothers. It was kind of a little bit of a left field choice in the best way possible. The note from Kripke was, he's great, we love him, but we're looking for like a really intelligent Duchovny type.

Starting point is 00:17:37 With 15 seasons to explore, it's going to be the road trip of several lifetimes. So please join us and subscribe to Supernatural then and now. and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars.

Starting point is 00:18:32 Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts.

Starting point is 00:18:50 So Gretchen, it would seem that if you want to get rid of stuff, that in order to, my theory anyway, that in order to increase the momentum that you're going to do it is to do stuff that you're going to see or not now or now not see i mean i have i have because of the business that i'm in i got more coffee mugs that i never use that just sit there but the the cupboard's closed i never see them so i i don't do anything about it yeah yes i Yes. I call that deep clutter. So deep clutter is when things are put away nicely, like in their place, but you never use them. So they're clutter in that. Why are they there? This is like the kind of stuff that's, it's like under the bed in the guest room. Why is it there? You don't even know what's under there. It's not in your way. It's not,

Starting point is 00:19:39 it's not, it's not a visible festering sore in your environment, but it's just, they're kind of weighing you down because why is it there? So, I mean, I do think that for most people, it is helpful to start with whatever's causing you the most annoyance. And so I would say, if it's the kitchen table that's always got junk on it, start with your kitchen table. Don't necessarily start with the mugs that are on the top shelf of the closed cabinet

Starting point is 00:20:01 door because, but I think that eventually you do want to get there because having these things unused and just sort of languishing there, it just makes your home feel very cramped and very stagnant. And also, you know, these things are being wasted, not used because people are very preoccupied with things being put to use or things being sustainable or things not being wasted, having something on a, you know, having a mug that you haven't used in five years that has like, you know, a layer of dust on the bottom, like put that out in the world and let somebody use it for their mugs. You know, there's probably some startup office where they're desperate for some cheap mugs. So, you know, take it to, take it to the thrift store and then somebody will use it and put it to use and you'll get your shelf back

Starting point is 00:20:45 and you'll get rid of those things. That's also called accidental stockpiling. And that's when we amass huge stores of things that are kind of seemingly useful. But, you know, you don't need 30 glass jars. I don't need 15 tote bags, although I do probably have 12 tote bags, but each one has like a special feature. How many mugs does one office need or one person need or one family need? You don't want to just keep accruing them because at some point you're going to have to deal with it. It's easier to do it a little bit at a time or not to take those things at all. But you know, you just brought up something really interesting that hadn't really occurred to me till just now is, you know, it's harder to get rid of stuff in the sense that it used to be fine to just toss it. And now you feel guilty because of the

Starting point is 00:21:31 environment. And so now you've got to go down to the thrift store, or you've got to go to the Goodwill. And it's just easier to just put it back in the cupboard. Yes, no, I think you're 100% correct. And I think that's a major reason that people keep clutter is that it's just easier to keep it than it is to figure out what to do with it, which is why don't take it in the first place. Because once you own it, you have to figure out, do I toss it? Do I recycle it? Do I give it away? If I give it away, to whom do I give it? I have to take it there. A lot of places don't take books. A lot of places don't take toys. A lot of places don't take ball gowns. What are you going to do with this stuff? don't take books. A lot of places don't take toys. A lot of places don't take ball gowns. Like, what are you going to do with this stuff? Don't take it if you don't think you're going to actually use it.

Starting point is 00:22:10 It's interesting, though. A lot of times people will say to me, I don't want to clear clutter because I don't want to contribute to the landfill. But the fact is you contribute to the landfill the minute you reach out and take that mug or that tote bag or whatever. Because whether it's going tomorrow or it's going after my children do a Swedish death cleaning in 40 years of my apartment, that is the destination. And so if we're worried about things not going to the landfill, like not taking them is the way.

Starting point is 00:22:37 I mean, I think it's admirable that people want things to be put to good use. And it's interesting because I've traveled all around the country talking about outer order. In some communities, there are many places to which you can give and feel really good about it. Like I went to a place where they had a, they had an organization where you could give like kind of major furniture, like kitchen table and kitchen chairs, or, you know, a bookshelf. And they would give them to people who were setting up their first homes and, you know, really had nothing. And so you could feel really good about giving your furniture there. Cause you're like, this is going to be put to good use. This is really going to help a family get,

Starting point is 00:23:11 get up on their feet and have like a really nice setup. But then some, some people are like, there's really not a, there's not a goodwill or salvation army or thrift store in my community. And you know, what do I do with this stuff? And it's, and so part of it is different places, it's easier or harder. One of the best things that happened to me is, uh, Housing Works, which is a kind of a thrift store chain in New York City, where I live, they opened right around the corner from my apartment. And I mean, right around the corner. Um, and this is just fantastic because it's so easy to just take little dribs and drabs of things instead of, you know, five big carloads.

Starting point is 00:23:48 But I think you're absolutely right. I think it's admirable that people don't want things to go to waste, but it does make it harder because you don't feel like you can just chuck everything into the trash. They probably put that store there because they knew you live there and they figured you're going to be coming by with stuff all. Gretchen Rubin. She's right around the corner. I walked by the other day, my daughter had given away a pair of purple cowboy boots and I saw them in the window and it made me so happy because I thought my daughter wasn't wearing those purple cowboy boots, but they're fabulous. And somebody will go in there and be like, oh my gosh, this completely made my day that I got a great deal on purple cowboy boots. So it is very satisfying. But I think sometimes people hold out for that feeling of like, I need to find the perfect recipient for something. And I can't find that perfect

Starting point is 00:24:32 recipient. And so all these things kind of stay in a holding pattern. One of the things you talk about that I find fascinating is this kind of mysterious effect of how clutter attracts more clutter. And it is interesting that it is like a universal law that you can't defy. If you have clutter, it's like the broken window in the factory, the abandoned factory. As soon as there's one, there'll be 20. And it's the same thing with clutter. It is. Clutter attracts clutter.

Starting point is 00:25:03 And clear areas tend to stay clear. It's really interesting. And I think a lot of people are surprised by that, how effective that is. And they sort of feel like, look, there's just always going to be this mountain of stuff on the counter. And it just grows and grows and grows. And then you lose important things and people just dump stuff there and it feels like, you know, it feels intractable. But when you clear it off, first of all, things look more out of place. Like if you put a piece of paper on a completely clear counter, you're like, why is this piece of paper here? If there's a thousand things on the counter, it's like, well, you know, we might as well be here as any place else. So it is really true that if you clear things out, they tend to stay clear. Also, if you clear things out, it's easier to put things away. And I've talked to a lot of people where like, I'll see a picture of like their kids room and

Starting point is 00:25:52 they're like, why doesn't my kid put away his toys? I'm like, that, that, that room is so jam packed with stuff. They probably just can't like jam it in there. They don't have that much strength to like stick, you know, their stuffed animal in there hard enough that it in there. They don't have that much strength to stick their stuffed animal in there hard enough that it stays there. Well, sure, because it's human nature. The harder something is to do, the less likely you are to do it. We're very, very influenced by convenience. Things that are convenient, we're much more likely to do. I write about this in my book about habit change better than before. It's comical how much even the slightest change in convenience affects people. In my house, no one could be bothered to hang up their coats. Clearly, this is just too taxing and overwhelming

Starting point is 00:26:31 for the members of my family, and I include myself in them. So finally, it dawned on me to get hooks. So now we have hooks in our coat closet, and we actually use the hooks. It's just that much easier to use a hook than a hanger that now people will use the hooks. So sometimes it's just like looking for that little bit of convenience can make the difference. And lastly, just any other little, because that's such a great suggestion, because people do use hooks. We've used hooks since kindergarten when we went to school and put our coats on. And yet, for some reason, putting something on a hanger and stuffing it in the closet, that's just too much work. So what other little shortcut tips like that, if any, can you share and then we'll call it a day? Well, one thing, this is a huge morale booster.

Starting point is 00:27:20 And I would not think this would be such a big deal except I've seen it over and over again, is if you're tackling a clothes closet, like a coat closet or your main clothes closet, take out all the extra hangers. For some reason, many people have lots and lots and lots and lots of extra hangers and they take up a lot of room. Even a very slender hanger takes up a lot of room and you don't realize how many hangers you have.

Starting point is 00:27:44 If you take them out, i was helping one friend move he was like flabbergasted by how many hangers had just gotten stuck in there we took them out it was like he had a third more space even before we started dealing with the clothes so that's a very that's a very easy morale booster thing well i think your suggestions are right on the money. I mean, who hasn't looked in their closet and seen a million hangers that you'll never use, but you never do anything about them. We'll get rid of them and imagine how much more space you'll have. Gretchen Rubin has been my guest. She is host of the podcast Happier with Gretchen Rubin.

Starting point is 00:28:19 She's the author of several books. Her latest is called Outer Order Inner Calm, Declutter and Organize to Make Room for Happiness. And you will find a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks, Gretchen. Thank you. So fun to talk to you. I appreciate it. Hey, everyone, join me, Megan Rinks, and me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune

Starting point is 00:28:56 in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong. And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games,

Starting point is 00:29:35 and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Did you take calculus in school? Calculus, and a lot of high school math for that matter, fall into that category of things you think you're never going to need in real life. So why do we have to learn it? But actually, calculus is a big

Starting point is 00:30:06 part of your real life in ways you may not know. Without it, for example, there would be no cell phones or TV or GPS, we may not know how to treat AIDS, and we may have never discovered Neptune. Calculus, as it turns out, is fascinating. And someone who really helps bring it to life is Steven Strogatz. He's a professor of applied mathematics at Cornell and author of the book Infinite Powers, How Calculus Reveals the Secrets of the Universe. Hey, Steven. Hi, Michael. Wonderful to be with you. So what is calculus? How do you define it? It's the branch of math that we use whenever we want to study something that's changing continuously.

Starting point is 00:30:52 Why is it that calculus, just the word calculus, seems to evoke those, oh my god, it's so hard. Why is it so hard? There are just so many different techniques to learn, a lot of jargon, lots of theorems to memorize. And it is conceptually very difficult. So there are just a lot of things up against anyone trying to learn it. But the payoff is that it's one of the greatest ideas that humanity has ever come up with to make sense of our world in flux. So, you know, the climb is worth the effort. But yeah, I don't blame people for finding it difficult. It is difficult. It took thousands of years for humanity to figure it out. And these were some of the smartest people of all time, people like Archimedes and Isaac Newton, you know, so it's a miracle maybe that any high school kid

Starting point is 00:31:41 can understand this stuff, you know, I mean, maybe we should look at it that way. Be thankful that there are kids who can understand it because they're playing the game with some of the smartest people of all time. Give me a quick, as quick and simple an example of calculus as you can. Suppose I'm a shot putter, you know, I'm on my track and field team and I want to throw the shot as far as possible. What angle should I launch it at? You know, should'm on my track and field team and I want to throw the shot as far as possible. What angle should I launch it at? You know, should I, obviously, if you push it straight up, it's just going to come straight up and land at your feet. You're not going to get any distance if you do that.

Starting point is 00:32:13 And if you push it out sideways, you know, at a horizontal direction, that's not going to work either. It's going to just go thud after a short distance. So the trick, if you want to throw something as far as possible or launch a missile as far as possible or shoot a shot put as far as possible, is to aim it at a 45 degree angle from the horizontal. That might seem like common sense, but to really prove it, you'd have to track the path of that ball, the shot put. And with calculus, we can do that, but we can also solve that optimization problem of ask, you know, what's the answer to the question? What's the best angle? And so that's

Starting point is 00:32:50 one of the places that calculus gets used a lot. When we're trying to solve for the best or the fastest or the cheapest, calculus can answer questions like that. Is that the best angle, 45 degrees, if you're throwing a shot put? It is. It turns out 45 degrees is the best if you can ignore air resistance, which for a shot put is true. If you were playing badminton, where air resistance is important, you know, or ping pong, that wouldn't necessarily be, or even golf. You know, I mean, that's, of course, an issue for someone hitting with the driver. They want to go as far as they can down the fairway. You don't want to hit it too high or too flat. 45 degrees is probably close to your best angle, but I think

Starting point is 00:33:31 it'll be a little more complicated with a golf ball because of the turbulence that the ball encounters as it goes through the air. And so if that's calculus, if that's a good example of calculus, how do we get to cell phones tvs gps ultrasound and everything else that calculus that you write about how what's the it's right it seems like a long leap to get there it does it's it's because i'm giving you kind of everyday examples um but really the the great triumph of calculus is when we apply it to the laws of nature so if we talk about deeper things like how electricity works or how magnetism works But really, the great triumph of calculus is when we apply it to the laws of nature. So if we talk about deeper things like how electricity works or how magnetism works, then that was something that scientists figured out in the 1800s through experiments with magnets and electrical currents. information that they found in their experiments into mathematical symbolism. They found that the language of calculus was exactly the language needed to describe what was going on. But then

Starting point is 00:34:30 the amazing thing is that with the logic of calculus as opposed to the language of it, the system of reasoning that calculus provided showed that electricity and magnetism could kind of dance together in the form of their electric field and magnetic field. They could dance together through empty space and propagate as a wave at the speed of light. And in that moment that the scientist James Clerk Maxwell figured out that electromagnetic waves would move at the speed of light, he suddenly realized that you could have wireless communication, that you could use electricity and magnetism to send messages across oceans and continents. And it was just a matter of a few years after that, people like Marconi and Tesla invented

Starting point is 00:35:15 the first telegraphs and radios. And so it was then just kind of a short hop to television and ultimately cell phones and wireless. But it was because of this fundamental work on electricity and magnetism and the implications that were drawn from them using calculus as a reasoning technique. Is calculus a way of discovering or is calculus a way of explaining a discovery? Well, both. Yeah, it's definitely both. I mean, sometimes, so an example of the explanation aspect would be Isaac Newton used calculus to explain why the planets move the way they do. People before him, like Johannes Kepler and Copernicus famously had realized that the planets move around the sun and not the other way around. But Kepler showed that planets move in a shape of a specific curve called an ellipse, a kind of oval shaped curve, but he couldn't explain why. And it was

Starting point is 00:36:11 only with calculus and Newton's laws of motion and gravity that the explanation finally came, that it followed by pure logic from the law of gravity. And you could only see that if you use calculus. So that's a case where calculus was explaining, but it's also a tool for discovering, you know, like in the case of Maxwell and electromagnetic waves, or when Einstein predicted the phenomenon of stimulated emission of atoms, which ultimately gave us lasers. So, where else or how else is calculus? Do we use it and not know we use it? Is it part of our lives or is it strictly something mathematicians do? Oh, it's everywhere. It's, so, you know, when you go home tonight, if you get lost and you need your GPS to tell you how to find the right way home, GPS is a wonder of calculus, but we're not aware of that. I mean,

Starting point is 00:37:03 for us, it's just this gadget that seems to know how to get anywhere from calculus, but we're not aware of that. I mean, for us, it's just this gadget that seems to know how to get anywhere from anywhere. But how does it really work? It's using all kinds of math. It's using geometry to triangulate distances to four different satellites that are overhead in the global positioning system and that are communicating with the receiver in your car. But the interesting thing, I mean, one of the many amazing things is that those satellites are moving at such high speeds that Einstein's theory of relativity comes into play and causes time to speed up or slow down for the atomic clocks that are on board those satellites. And so what I'm driving at is that for the GPS system to work correctly, you have to make corrections that only Einstein knew about because of calculus. And then those corrections are being made using calculus. And without them,

Starting point is 00:37:50 the whole GPS system would fall apart in about 20 minutes, and it wouldn't work. And you know, I mean, everything that we use it for from navigation to financial transactions to military applications, to put a missile, you know, through Saddam Hussein's window or something. That would all fall apart without calculus. You talk, though, about how calculus is important in a lot of inventions, microwave ovens and CAT scans and things. And so I'm trying to figure out here, is it because people sit down with their calculus book and invent the microwave oven or the CAT scan machine?

Starting point is 00:38:26 Or is it an invention that happens and calculus is used as a way to explain how it works? Well, we've had both. You know, there have been cases where calculus led to predictions that then led to the creation of devices. So an example or two of that would be if you have to check into a hospital and need to have a CAT scan. The CAT scan, which, you know, has been a revolution in medicine because it allows us to see things that were invisible to ordinary x-rays. You know, in the old days, for instance, if you had a blood clot in your brain or a hemorrhage or a brain tumor, no doctor would look at that with x-rays because the x-rays would just show an amorphous gray mass in your brain. X-rays are for hard structures like bones and teeth, but for soft tissues like the brain, x-rays were useless.

Starting point is 00:39:19 But then in the 1960s, a couple of different – actually, it's an example of what you you're talking about two people having the same idea around the same time two different scientists in different continents figured out that if you could shoot x-rays from many different directions and take many images instead of just one that you could recombine them using calculus to see images even of soft tissues and and like i say blood clots and brain hemorrhages and things. And so that was a triumph of calculus that led to the development of CT scans. I mean, they didn't get created first and then calculus was used to analyze them. It was really calculus that said, this should be possible. And it was only later that inventions like that were made. Actually, there's a little twist to that story that I'd like to throw in here, which is that the company that funded the development of the first CAT scan

Starting point is 00:40:08 devices was a company in England called EMI. And I'm guessing you might have heard of EMI, Electric and Music Industries. Does that ring any bells for you? Of course. What are you thinking? I'm thinking of the record company that the Beatles recorded for. Exactly, exactly. Bingo. And the reason that EMI was able to fund the development of this pie-in-the-sky technology of CT scans is that they had signed this band from Liverpool, which had suddenly made them an enormous pile of money.

Starting point is 00:40:39 And so they had all this cash around, and they took a shot on CT scans. What's interesting to me is that when you hear about the kinds of high-techy inventions, you use the phrase, it was a triumph of calculus. I've never heard anybody say, we've invented this thing and it is a triumph of calculus. It's never that. Well, that's some kind of Rodney Dangerfield phenomenon. We're not getting any respect. It is calculus, but let me not exaggerate for the sake of my own credibility here and to tell the truth, which is that calculus and really all of science and technology is a team effort. That calculus is a part of science. It's the math that all scientists learn.

Starting point is 00:41:27 And this is the answer to your earlier question of why are students being made to learn calculus in high school and college. Every engineer, every physicist, and increasingly every biologist and every person who does high tech and finance have to learn calculus because, as I say, it's the language of change. And so it's an essential part of the toolkit for anybody, but it's not enough. Calculus can't do all these things on its own. You need the technologists building things. You know, the guys who built the CT scanners had to be wizards at electrical engineering and material science.

Starting point is 00:42:00 And the same thing with radio and telegraph. Those people were inventors. We think of Tesla and Marconi as inventors, but yet they wouldn't have been able to think of their ideas without the fact that Maxwell had shown years earlier that this was theoretically possible and it gave them hope of doing what they ultimately did. So yeah, calculus, think of it as a supporting player

Starting point is 00:42:23 in a sort of theatrical production, maybe, you know, it's one of the actors, it's a bit part, nobody ever notices it, but it's key to the drama. Yeah, it is key to the drama. And you're right, I think you need more respect. You don't get the respect that it seems that you deserve. Because I mean, I just never hear people talk about, well, if it wasn't for calculus, we wouldn't have this. Nobody ever says that. That's true. And that's one reason I wrote this book, that I feel that calculus is underappreciated.

Starting point is 00:43:10 And it's truly one of the greatest ideas of all time. It's up there with evolution, the idea of human rights and democracy, the idea of, say, quantum theory helping us understand, you know, atoms and how they work that gave us all of 20th century technology. You wouldn't have quantum theory without calculus. I mean, the language of all of physics is calculus. So those of us who have been trained in very advanced techniques in science and math know this, but the public doesn't know it by and large. And certainly, I mean, this is the real shame. The kid going through high school taking their advanced placement course in calculus doesn't know it either. And maybe their teacher

Starting point is 00:43:41 doesn't even know it because everybody's in such a big rush to get the kid ready for the AP test at the end of the year that there's no time to talk about history and context. And, you know, we haven't even really talked about the human stories. You know, what was Isaac Newton like or what was Archimedes like? These guys are all wild characters as interesting as Shakespeare and Leonardo da Vinci or any of the other great geniuses of history. Well, talk about them. What makes them so wild? Well, when I hear about Archimedes, which, you know, just for most people sounds like another old Greek name. Here's a guy living around 250 BC. He's on the island of Sicily in a town called Syracuse. And he's got this problem, which is that he and everyone in his

Starting point is 00:44:26 town are, you know, the Romans would love to take over Syracuse. And so, they're besieging the city. And Archimedes, who's the guy who gives us the principle of the lever, you know, he understands how levers work and how you can use them to great advantage to lift heavy things. He's figured out rules for how ships float and how things balance. That is, he's discovered the laws of buoyancy. He's also discovered how to analyze curved shapes, which was a key problem in geometry at the time. So he can make parabolic mirrors and all kinds of other interesting gadgets. But anyway, he turns out to be a great warrior scientist and helps his city defend themselves against the Romans by inventing giant cranes that can lift the Roman ships out of the water and shake the soldiers out of them,

Starting point is 00:45:11 like shaking sand out of a shoe. So he's just a wild man, but he also is one of the greatest geniuses in history mathematically in that he anticipates ideas of calculus by about 2,000 years. Back to modern day life, how is calculus being used now and in the recent past to help with other inventions, other developments, other breakthroughs? Yeah, I mean, I think a key surprise and another case of calculus as unsung hero is in the story of how we finally managed to turn AIDS into a chronic illness instead of a near certain death sentence. At first, the symptoms were, you know, maybe you'd feel like you had the flu or you had a really bad cold for a couple weeks, but then you get over it. Then years go by, usually after about 10 years, the virus would suddenly come raging out and people would get

Starting point is 00:46:07 really sick and then start to show all the symptoms of full-blown AIDS. And after that, they would die within a year or two. So what's going on in their body during that mysterious 10-year interlude when they were asymptomatic? That was the big question in the 1980s and 90s. And so the reason I'm telling you all this is that calculus was a key part of our understanding what was going on. I mean, it used to be thought that the virus was hiding out in the body and hibernating. But with the help of calculus, through the work of a few different mathematicians who collaborated with various doctors, the most famous of which being Dr. David Ho, who was Time Magazine's Man of the Year in 1996. It was discovered that during this 10-year quiescent period, HIV was not actually hibernating in the body. It was an all-out raging war with the

Starting point is 00:46:59 body's immune system. And with the help of the math, it was discovered that about a billion virus particles a day were being produced by the virus. And that same billion particles was being cleared out by the immune system. It was the exact opposite of hibernation. It was, like I say, an all-out furious war. One last example of how calculus works in life today that people might not know. We all walk around with phones nowadays that have, for many of us, thousands of songs on our phone or lots of photographs of our loved ones. And there's this issue of how do you compress a big file so that it fits on your phone? It turns out calculus has the answer to that. With calculus, we can find the optimal way of compressing music and video so that it fits in a small space, but it doesn't degrade in its resolution or quality. So there's a very practical use of calculus that we're all making use of every day without even appreciating all the math that went behind it. Well, I love math and science. I'm not very good at either one, but I love the topics

Starting point is 00:48:08 and I really appreciate when someone like you can explain it so well and make it come to life. Steven Strogatz has been my guest. He's a professor of applied mathematics at Cornell, and his book is called

Starting point is 00:48:21 Infinite Powers, How Calculus Reveals the Secrets of the Universe. There's a link to his book in the show notes. Thanks for being here, Stephen. Thanks very much, Michael. One often talked about benefit of pet ownership is that petting or other physical contact with your pet can help lower your blood pressure and offer other health benefits. So if petting your dog is good, well, hugging your dog must be great, right?

Starting point is 00:48:52 Maybe for you, but definitely not for your dog. There are a few things you need to understand about this. Dogs are cursorial animals. In other words, when dogs are stressed out or threatened, their instinct is not to fight but to run away. Behaviorists believe that depriving a dog of that course of action by immobilizing him with a hug can increase stress levels in the dog. And if the dog's anxiety becomes significantly intense, he may bite. For that reason, certain websites try to educate children and parents to teach their children not to hug dogs so they don't get bitten. Another thing that's important to understand is that you may think that your dog likes to be hugged,

Starting point is 00:49:45 but the truth is we're very bad at reading stress signals in doggy behavior. In a random search of 250 internet photos of dogs being hugged by people, 82% of the dogs showed signs of stress. But to the untrained eye, the dog looked fine. So petting your dog is great. Hugging your dog is not so great and potentially dangerous. And that is something you should know. You know, we are this close to getting 5,000 ratings and reviews on Apple Podcasts. You could help us reach that goal. And it would only take a second. Just head over to Apple Podcasts and leave a rating and review, preferably a five-star one. Those are the ones we like the best. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper.

Starting point is 00:50:40 In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law Thank you. Kelly Marie Tran, and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Contained herein are the heresies of Rudolf Buntwine,

Starting point is 00:51:36 erstwhile monk-turned-traveling medical investigator. Join me as I study the secrets of the divine plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth that ours is not a loving God and we are not its favored children. The heresies of Redolf Bantwine, wherever podcasts are available.

Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: Happiness Through Decluttering & The Magic of Calculus You Use Everyday

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