Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: How Long Term Love Works & A Different Approach to Depression

Episode Date: January 16, 2021

I suspect you’ve been cheated or lied to at some point in your life and thought to yourself, “How in the world did I fall for that?” There is actually a good reason why it happened to you and to every other human on the planet.  https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/cutting-edge-leadership/201109/the-5-reasons-we-get-suckered-and-ripped While there is no shortage of advice for people in relationships – I think I have someone who will make you think differently about love and how it really works in the long-term. Dr. Thomas Habib is a clinical psychologist and author of the book, If These Walls Could Talk (https://amzn.to/2BgCM4w). He will have you thinking differently about love – and he also explains why guys hate chick flicks! Whatever fragrance you wear, you owe it all – or at least in part to Coco Chanel. I’ll explain why and tell you why the most popular fragrance in the world – Chanel No. 5 – has such an unusual name. Source: Sleeping with The Enemy (https://amzn.to/2MPrfur) by Hal Vaughan Imagine a discussion about depression that is actually uplifting! With depression affecting so many people (including people in your life, most likely) I think you will enjoy listening to psychiatrist Dr. Kelly Brogan author of the book, A Mind of Your Own (https://amzn.to/2MvyJ8Q). She takes a fascinating look at the research around depression and what causes it and what helps it. PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! https://www.geico.com Bundle your policies and save! It's Geico easy! Discover matches all the cash back you earn on your credit card at the end of your first year automatically! Learn more at https://discover.com/yes M1 Is the finance Super App, where you can invest, borrow, save and spend all in one place! Visit https://m1finance.com/something to sign up and get $30 to invest! Helix is offering up to $200 off all mattress orders AND two free pillows for our listeners at https://helixsleep.com/sysk Backcountry.com is the BEST place for outdoor gear and apparel. Go to https://backcountry.com/sysk and use promo code SYSK to get 15% off your first full price purchase! Truebill is the smartest way to manage your finances like reoccurring subscription charges! Get started today at https://Truebill.com/SYSK Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, our 200th episode. Have you ever been cheated, conned, or lied to and thought, how did I fall for that? Well, I'll tell you exactly why. Then there's so much about love and relationships you may not understand.

The feelings of love in the average marriage are 3 to 5 minutes a day. You can access them by thinking of your spouse and what they do really good, but it only lasts for a few seconds and that's okay. Also, whatever perfume you do wear, you can thank Chanel No. 5 for it and a top psychiatrist with an optimistic look at depression. Far from you're born with it and too bad, sorry for you, this puts the control back into your hands and it's actually much, much simpler than a life of prescription after prescription where you never actually get to the place you want. All this today on Something You Should Know.

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Connect with a credentialed therapist by phone, video, or online chat. Visit BetterHelp.com to learn more. That's BetterHelp.com. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome. You know, I think when people listen to podcasts,

the tendency is to listen to the most current episode, to put the most value on the most current episode. And with a news or current events-based podcast or a sports podcast, that makes a lot of sense. If you go back very far into previous episodes, the content could be very dated. Not so with this podcast. So if you have time on your hands and you like this podcast and you'd like something to listen to, I invite you to go back into our previous episodes. If you haven't heard them, I think you would like them. First up today, have you ever been conned or cheated and never saw it coming?

Well, if it's of any comfort, it happens to everyone sooner or later. The question afterwards is often, why did I fall for that? I should have known better. I should have suspected something. Well, if it has happened to you, at least you can partly blame evolution. You see, we're programmed to get along with other people so the human race can continue to survive. So within us are things like the trusting bias. We tend to trust people until we have a reason not to, rather than not trust people until we have a reason to.

Reciprocity is something that's built into us. When somebody gives us something, we feel obligated to give something in return. Con artists know this and they use it all the time. The fear of embarrassment is very strong. Nobody wants to look like a fool, so we are reluctant to call someone out as a cheater or a liar because if we're wrong, we will feel very embarrassed and not feeling embarrassed is a very strong motivator. So we keep quiet and we go along for way too long. We like to believe in a just world. Believing that the world is fair makes us trusting

but sometimes we're too trusting. So being aware of your inclination to trust can help you stop and question things especially when they sound too good to be true So being aware of your inclination to trust can help you stop and question things, especially when they sound too good to be true, because usually they are. And that is something you should know. If you're in a relationship and you want to make that relationship better, you can certainly find a huge amount of advice on just how to do that,

from books and podcasts and magazines and TV shows. There are experts on relationships everywhere, and I've certainly talked to many of them and interviewed them. And one person that I interviewed back when I was on the radio was Dr. Thomas Habib. He's a clinical psychologist who specializes in helping couples, and he wrote a book several years ago called If These Walls Could Talk. And he joins me now to talk about what I think is a really interesting view of relationships and how they work, and some really interesting ways to improve any relationship, things that even men would do.

Because I think so much relationship advice is written for and consumed by women, but Tom has a great way of talking to both men and women equally. Hey Tom, great to talk to you again. And one of the things I remember so well when we first talked a few years back is the idea about why guys hate chick flicks. Because most of us watch these movies and we can't measure up to this perfect guy who gets the girl in the end, and we just can't be as wonderful and delightful as him,

and that's why we squirm in our seats watching those movies. Right. The reason why men don't like chick flicks is, as you said, we can't live up to that idealization of what men are and aren't. And certainly men do their idealization of women in the physical level. But what it taps is the first stage a couple goes through, the wonderful stage I named Safety and Attraction. And this stage just feels so good. It's so much chemistry mixed with idealization. You think you died and went to heaven. You met your perfect soulmate.

And it's a wonderful period that's going to last anywhere from 30 to maybe 180 days. And then reality hits and you're out of it. Because what happens? Well, reality intrudes upon the dream. You're involved with someone emotionally that's less than perfect. So inevitably, she's going to be irritable about something. He's going to be emotionally unavailable. And the reality of people going through phases where they're at their higher self and they're at their lower self

is what all of us have to cope with in intimacy. Yeah, and you made the point when we talked before that those chick flick movies all take place beginning to end during that first stage that you call safety and attraction. And the implication at the end is, and they all lived happily ever after. But nobody ever makes a movie about the happily ever after, because that's when reality sets in, and it's not as gushy and mushy as the safety and attraction stage. Exactly. And worse yet, couples are looking in the wrong direction, trying to resume that admittedly wonderful phase of that time. And it's the wrong direction. You have to move along and learn how to develop the roles in the relationship where you can resurrect a lot of those feelings. So at this time, we're fascinated with that. Everything from plastic surgery, the fact that women aren't allowed to age. I mean, all of this is an artifact of looking in

this wrong direction. Well, let's look in the right direction. Let's go through these stages. Let's go along that line that you talked about and find the good in all of it. So the safety and attraction is the stage one. That's the chick's fix level where love comes easy. But we really don't know that person. And as reality hits and you have that feeling that you lost something, you're moving into the role stage. You've got to learn, and as an intimate couple,

how to be girlfriend, boyfriend at that stage, husband, wife, mother, father, how to interact with other people in your world, you know, as the marriage, if you're married, being the central unit, you're going to lay down all these pathways of problem solving, give and take, the sexual relationship. And once you get good at it and the second stage rolls, then you're actually entering the relational stage that really didn't come online until the 60s, where this was absolutely an option. So wait, I'm not sure I follow. So there's the safety and attraction stage. That's the first stage where everything is lovely and wonderful and perfect. Then there's the

role stage where you start to take on the role of mother, father, husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend. There's that stage. And now you're saying there's the third stage, the relational stage. But what do you mean it didn't happen until the 60s? The idea of relational is that rather than being stuck at roles, like a woman's role is to be home, barefoot and pregnant. And I know I'm caricaturing this just for clarity. But she's barefoot and pregnant. The man is the breadwinner.

In the 60s, what came online with feminism is the possibility of having full relationship, meaning that the cream could rise to the top, and one member of the dyad could lead in one area, and the other person could lead in another area. I always think of myself and my wife is when it comes to finding things, when we're out traveling, I'm a follower. I will get us lost in a heartbeat because she's clearly a lot better at finding things. And I'm the follower and she's the leader. And that doesn't come online to the mid-60s. So it's a relatively new stage

that we're only in about 50 years into at this point. Great. So you've outlined the first three stages of a relationship, which I think people have a pretty good sense of. So what's next? The next stage is first love. And this is where it gets good. Because when you thought you were in love at safety and attraction, you were in love with the chemistry and the enthusiasm, not the empathy and understanding that comes with first love. And first love, because you give up the fantasy of the safety and attraction, that black hole I alluded to, nobody gets to live there. I don't care what the movies say.

It doesn't persist. I love when I get a new couple, you know, somebody just falls in love, and I ask them, tell me three things wrong with them. And they're struggling to come up with three things. But within five years, they'll develop five pages of faults within the person. But clearly, many, if not most couples, don't just easily transition from these various stages into happily ever after. So typically, what goes wrong? What happens that things go awry? So typical issues is when one needs to lead and the other one needs to follow.

They have power struggle issues at that stage. So a simple decision about who's going to take the lead on a family project or a family vacation, they don't work out those nuances. So one person can lead, the other one can advise and approve. And so everything becomes a battleground when their issues are on power. Now, also, they say they want more closeness, but when one person offers closeness, the deeper closeness, say at the relational stage, they back away or they give a mixed message. Anything from laughing because of anxiety or, you know, moving away so abruptly, their partner gets hurt. So those basic premises of connection, because this is an intimate relationship,

the connection level has to work fairly well to get to the advanced stages. We're talking about love and relationships and why guys hate chick flicks. And my guest is clinical psychologist Dr. Thomas Habib. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more.

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career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, Thomas, you were talking about how couples connect, or more accurately, how they don't connect and end up banging their heads against the wall.

So, how do you prevent those head-banging incidents from happening in the first place? The first thing they have to do is become aware of it. That, you know, I notice every time, you know, one person tries to lead in this relationship, you two are in a power struggle. Why is the issue of power? Well, he doesn't respect me. I don't feel supported and respected.

So I've got to get that clear so that they can share power. The cream can rise to the top, and one person can lead in their area of expertise. So you can see why it's such a positive development, because if one member of the relationship is better in one area, then the family benefits, the children benefit, the relationship benefits. But if there's basic power struggles going on, then it's the one who has the most power that leads. So take your example, for instance.

Your wife is better at travel plans and getting you there than you are. So how did that come about? Did she just take the lead and you backed off? Or was there an actual, let's sit down and who's going to take the lead? I don't get how this happens. For us, it was clear that I couldn't find my way out of a bag. And you're absolutely right. I back off and I do the supportive things. Like when the children were younger, I would get them

organized and together. You know, I would do what I could in hanging on to documents, passports, arranging car rentals. But when it came to plotting the trip, she took the lead. And to this day, I express gratitude because I can walk into a terminal in an airport and I am totally disoriented immediately. And then she does the same thing in, say, areas of our professional life. Other listeners may not know, my wife's also a psychologist, which makes it a little bit easier. And clinically, in working with, say, couples, she'll ask me for a consult,

and I take the lead in terms of what's going on, and she defers to my knowledge in that area, and I defer to her knowledge in diagnostics. So it depends. What are a couple's areas of strength? And at the relational level, that strength can rise up and have a positive effect on the family and the marriage. But what I'm wondering, though, is when she takes the lead in making and plotting out that trip, is it because you had a discussion and you said, I'll back off and you take the lead, or did it just happen? And if it just happened, how does that just happen?

It just happened because I was so bad at it. It was clear she was leading, and then we discussed it that, yeah, this is really a good idea. But you're right, Mike. In other areas, we did have a discussion around where I would lead or where she would lead, and we had an agreement on that. And you're right. A couple needs to decide who's going to lead. We want power balanced overall in the relationship, that there's equal opportunity to influence dependent upon strength.

And we know there's other contexts where we do that, like in business relationships or in companies. You know, hopefully the cream rises to the top, and whoever has the skill is able to have their positive influence in different areas. You talk about something that I think is really important, and maybe this tends to be a bit of a gender difference, in terms of how much love is actually in a long-term relationship. The expectation is that it's constant, that love is a constant, and you beg to differ. The feelings of love in the average marriage are three to five minutes a day.

And you can access them by thinking of your spouse and what they do really good and what brings you to that feeling of love. But it only lasts for a minute or a few seconds because you're usually busy doing something else. And that's okay. Now, at first love, you get into these practices and awarenesses where you begin to maximize it. But for most of us at roles and relationship stage, it's going to be three to five minutes a day. Which I think is just so important and insightful that love is not a constant state of being. Absolutely. And people do these terminology gymnastics.

I still love them, but I'm not in love with them. And I never quite understand it, but I think they're parsing exactly what we're saying right now. They're aware of the diminishment of love, but they're really saying, I'm still committed and I still have hope in the relationship. And they should. But they're going to have to learn how to develop more love and get further down the couple's line in order to feel more. But I think it's a pretty common belief, because people live this, that over time in a long-term relationship, love wanes. And maybe something else takes its place, and maybe it's friendship, companionship, maybe it's the parenting,

maybe it's something, but it isn't that love that you used to feel. I don't think I would want us to go that far with it. I'm pretty good with the waning. And remember, if they're still sexualized in the relationship, they're probably having moments of really feeling the return of a deeper love. But in time, if they don't work on the relationship, they don't learn how to grow in gratitude, it does stagnate and they tend to coexist together.

Well, one of my peeves about, you know, relationship psychology, couples talk, is what you just said, that you have to work on the relationship and grow in gratitude. And I think if you say that to most people, they wouldn't know what it means. I don't know what it means to work on the relationship and grow in gratitude. There's an example I want to give you. A couple will be watching a television movie,

and it will get to a very poignant moment in the movie where they're choked up, and they're crying inside, they're swallowing their tears, and they're not looking at each other. And there's a practice I do where I get them to look at each other under those circumstances for 30 seconds, and the rule is you can't smile or look away. And what I'm using, I'm using that poignancy of the moment. Say the moment was they're watching something about a child struggling, and finally the

child succeeds, and they're filled with sadness and joy for that child. That energy, when they look at each other and they hold that level of energy, it seems to reignite a groove in their relationship where they're feeling a lot more intensity. So it's these types of practice for couples that are relatively stable that they can reignite some of the enchantment they felt at the early stage. And that's what's been exciting is getting that online again and having a clear direction, not just problem solving, not just the work, but being aware of where they block off the potential of a relationship. But as you were saying that, as you were talking about that, I was thinking that if you asked me to do that with my wife and you said, I want you to look at each other for 30 seconds and you can't look away and you can't smile, that would be really hard. I would smile.

I would laugh. I would probably laugh. And I think most people would probably laugh because of the artificialness of the moment. And well, why would people laugh? So that's really a good question Mike is they're laughing out of the nervousness of the potential connection. The intensity in that moment when you're looking at each other in that point in moment where you're full of feelings, complex feelings, you're laughing because of the intensity

and lack of trust. But when you hang in there for 30 seconds, it seems to groove a path of intimacy in the relationship that the couple can return to later on. And is there something else that people can do to, quote, work on the relationship that has that kind of power to it? Yes. So say you did that two or three times with a movie, you begin to realize you can look at each other with a look, and you don't even need the movie any longer to reignite that level of connection. And as long as you stay in steady and honoring that connection at that moment, setting as an intention, we're going to have this kind of connection here and there. Then you'll be amazed at how it develops over time well i've always

liked what you have to say about relationships and how they work and how you can make them better and and the stages people go through so i appreciate you sharing that with us my guest has been dr thomas habib he is a clinical psychologist who specializes in working with couples his book which i think is out of print now, but his book is called If These Walls Could Talk, and you can still find it in places. And there's a link to his website in the show notes. Thank you, Thomas. I appreciate you being here. Thanks, Mike. It's been a pleasure really interviewing with you again. Hey, everyone. Join me, Megan Rinks.

And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong?, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our Lister poll results from But Am I Wrong? And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown.

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So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. You might think that talking about depression would be depressing. But hold on a minute. What you're about to hear is a rather optimistic look at a problem that seems to impact so many people and families. I would imagine that you or someone you know or someone in your family has struggled with or is struggling with depression. And it's hard to deal with. It's hard to watch

other people deal with it. And here to talk about it is psychiatrist Dr. Kelly Brogan. Dr. Brogan is board certified in psychiatry, psychosomatic medicine, and integrative holistic medicine. And she is the author of a book called A Mind of Your Own. Welcome, doctor. So just how big a problem is depression, would you say? It's amazing, but depression is actually the number one cause of disability according to the World Health Organization worldwide right now and so we have to start asking this question what is it right and we've been told a story I believe I certainly was in my conventional medical training about what depression is we've been told that it's a chemical imbalance that it's likely inherited right and that most most often you're going to have to manage it through prescription

medications for the rest of your life, just the way diabetics have to take insulin. And what I've discovered, you know, in about the past 10 years or so of my clinical practice is that not only is there not science to support that, but in fact there's a much more interesting story behind what depression is, at least in its most modern manifestation. And what briefly is that story? So what we're learning is that there are many, many now chronic diseases, right, whether it's autoimmunity or cancer, heart disease, diabetes, and that these chronic diseases are driven by what's called the inflammatory response.

And it's actually the body's natural attempt to adapt to a very unnatural world, right? So we are exposed to, you know, 100,000 some unstudied chemicals every single day. We're eating food products rather than actual food. We're living in a degree of stress that is, you know, totally on, you know, could have been unforeseen by our genetic evolution. And for the most part, our bodies are attempting to adapt to that and are manifesting these chronic diseases in response, right? And so depression in many ways is just a sign that something is out of balance and it's not a disease, in fact. So it's no different than really a fever. Right. So the way that the body produces a fever when it's trying to manage something, adapt to something or fight something, depression is that sign.

It is not one thing. In fact, it can be many, many things. So in my practice, when I meet a patient who describes feeling depressed, I'm not interested in her brain chemistry, right? I'm interested in her hormonal system. Does she have low thyroid function? I'm interested in whether she has other autoimmune signs. I'm interested in whether she has single nutrient deficiencies that are totally reversible. I'm interested in whether she has specific reactions to very common foods like wheat or dairy. I'm interested in whether she has blood sugar imbalance, because all of these things can lead to the symptoms of brain fog, flat mood, changes in sleep, changes in metabolism,

that we are calling this broad label of depression. But in fact, we need to look deeper to what could be very reversible. But couldn't one of the explanations be what you described in the beginning, that depression is a chemical imbalance? And yes, it may be hormonal and everything else, but couldn't it also be a chemical imbalance? Because if people take medication and they say it works, then it must be treating something.

Right. So this is a very fascinating and actually pretty shocking line of inquiry, right? Because, in fact, when you look at the literature, you'll find that in six decades there is no science, literally not a single study I found as shocking as someone who prescribed for many years to validate the notion of the chemical imbalance theory and specifically a serotonin deficiency theory, right? It is not science. And in fact, science has been searching endlessly for the genetics of depression, really any mental illness, and it's come up completely empty-handed. So at a certain point, we have to acknowledge what

science is telling us, or we can fight it. You know, we can live in an illusion, but I prefer to actually work with what science is showing us and to move forward from there. So your question about, well, don't these medications work? In fact, they don't. In fact, their efficacy is often, in most of the published literature, no more than 30 to 50 percent. And Irving Kirsch is one of the world's placebo experts. He's a psychologist who essentially, through a series of very well-performed analyses, has demonstrated that when we are saying they work, they are working because of something called the active placebo effect, right? The active placebo effect is a response to a belief about what a medication might do for you. And it sounds like, oh, yeah,

yeah, that's not a big deal. In fact, it's such a big deal that we are now discovering that some of our most prized treatments in medicine, including surgery, are riding this effect, right? So what happens in these studies anyway, and probably also in real life, is that when patients begin to have some effects, largely, quote unquote, side effects from medications, you know, a couple of days on Prozac and you have a headache or a little diarrhea, you begin to tell yourself that it's working, right? And so what is it working on?

It's working on that chemical imbalance you learned about from advertisers telling you that you have a chemical imbalance that Zoloft is going to fix. So that's a very relevant piece. But then there's also the fact that these are chemicals, right, that they're chemicals no different from alcohol or cocaine in that they have a chemical effect. And so the analogy I often use is that if you're somebody who's very socially anxious and you have a couple shots of vodka at a party, guess what?

Your psychiatric symptoms of social anxiety are likely to be mitigated, right? But we wouldn't go so far as to say that you have an alcohol deficiency or that you should take that treatment every single day to prevent future occurrences of symptoms, right? We know that there's a cost to using a chemical for an effect that you might happen to like in the short term. So for some patients, the chemical effects

or even side effects are desirable, right? Some of these medications have sedative effects. Some of them have emotional numbing effects. Some of them effects are desirable, right? Some of these medications have sedative effects. Some of them have emotional numbing effects. Some of them have activating effects, right? And so a given patient might actually like that. But to suggest that it's fixing an underlying problem is actually a gross misstatement of what science is showing us. It seems to me that today people often confuse depression with sadness,

that we're never supposed to get sad, that if we're sad, we're depressed. But in fact, life can sometimes make you sad. Bad things happen, sad things happen. And in that case, it's okay to be sad. You don't need to run to the doctor to fix your sadness. I love this question. Such an important question. Yes. Right. So as much as I am suggesting that symptoms of depression could be an invitation to look deeper into what's going on

in terms of your physical health, it's the same sort of like, well, let's pause and reflect to see what the meaning here might be. Right. And in the human experience, and particularly in the human experience in this country, there's absolutely no room for that pause, right? We make no room for, you know, suffering, for struggle, for moments of reflection where we take a broader look at what the hell we're here to do on this planet, right? So what you're suggesting is that actually that kind of struggle and suffering

may have a meaning in a given person's life. And if we just, you know, stamp it out and compartmentalize it off, we may be actually doing that person a disservice. And so that's why it's particularly amazing, you know, that the DSM-5, which is the newest iteration of psychiatry's diagnostic manual, has actually pathologized grief that is lasting longer than two weeks. That's a profound statement on the part of the Guild of Psychiatry, right? Because what they're saying essentially is like, get back to work and get up and brush yourself off. That's all that matters. And I think many of us are starting to sense that when we reflect on our lives, the things that have refined us and allowed us to evolve as human beings, right, not as machines and androids who are just here to serve the economy,

the things that have done that for us have been difficult, right, have been challenging. And if we don't make space societally for that, because we're so interested in symptom suppression and functionality, then we might actually be sort of divorcing ourselves from an important element of our own humanity. So it's a great question. So as you said in the beginning, most people I think believe that depression is something

having to do with some chemical imbalance in the brain, and now you come along and say, well, no, there could be other factors, hormonal, dietary, whatnot. Well, how do we know your theory is right? How is it that your theory trumps the other one? Well, you know, it's not really a theory I'm putting forth, right? While there is science to support what's called the cytokine theory of depression, which is

this inflammatory model, what I'm arguing for is that we've been evolving for two and a half million years in our current, you know, incarnation, right? And I'm very interested in speaking to our genes in a language that they understand. So a lot of what I recommend is just getting back to basics, right? So what is it that has changed in the past 100 to 150 years since the industrial revolution? You know, what has changed? Our circadian rhythms have changed. Our exposure to sunlight has changed. Our food has changed. Our stress has changed. Our chemical exposures have changed. We are now officially sicker than we have ever been in the history of humankind. So why don't we just, I don't know, do something wild and get back to what was working, you know,

up until about 100 years ago before we developed 100 autoimmune diseases that never existed before, right? So that's really the underpinning of the approach. And the most important element of this approach is that it honors the physician's oath, which is first, do no harm, right? So there are no side effects of my approach to mental health and wellness. And they're only side benefits. In fact, you know, people come in here to relieve their symptoms, psychiatric symptoms, and they end up, you know, getting their libido back and their hair and their skin look fabulous. And they end up realizing that they're at the wrong job and they need to make a transition in their life. There are all of these side benefits. When we are leading with prescription medications

that have a very, very dark underbelly of undisclosed risks, including homicide and suicide, within single doses, then I think we are acting unethically. And this is coming from someone who prescribed these medications every single day for many years and who was very much a believer in their promise. But when you really dig deep into do they work and are they safe, the answers are very unsettling in terms of what has been suppressed in terms of the published literature by pharmaceutical companies jammed into their locked file drawers. And it's really time to take a more benign and, frankly,

a much more effective approach to this extremely common syndrome. So the prescription is what? I mean, I can imagine people listening to you saying, wow, this is great news. I mean, I don't have to take my pills anymore. But you don't just stop taking your pills. So what is the prescription? It is great news, right? Because far from the condemnation of predetermined genetics, right? Far from you're born with it and too bad, sorry for you, bad luck. You know, this actually puts

the power back into your hands. You know know I personally put into remission and an autoimmune disorder thyroid condition that I was taught in medical school was chronic for life so I you know I learned through that that I was not told the whole story in my training this puts the control back into your hands and it's actually much much simpler and less expensive than a life of prescription after prescription after prescription where you never actually get to the place you want to be in terms of how you're feeling every day. So the prescription is rather simple. The main pillar is dietary. And again, I'm not asking for a 30-day juice cleanse.

It's essentially eating a specific diet of whole foods that, again, we've been eating for a long time ancestrally. And then it's, you know, some minor changes in terms of like three minutes a day of breath work, 20 minutes a week, a week of movement and exercise, some, you know, tricks to enhance your sleep. And then primarily it's engaging the long process of detoxifying your environment, which we all need to do if we want to live free of chronic disease today. And the beauty is that it actually works. Like these really simple interventions, your body is very forgiving. And that's something, again, I never learned in medical school. I learned that our body was something we had to war against, but it actually is quite forgiving.

So when you just get out of your own way and the ways I describe in A Mind of Your Own, it's really quite profound what's possible. And when you say detoxify your environment, that means doing what? So, yeah, so I detail like what sort of choices that entails, but essentially it's like changing the things you buy, right? Changing the cosmetics you use or the, you know, personal care products you use, changing the cleaners that you use at home, taking a look at how you can de-chemicalize your food, right? Because we are now, every time we eat a head of broccoli, we're not just eating a head of broccoli, we're eating a whole dose of chemicals in terms of pesticides that we now know are major carcinogens that impact our gut, that impact our detox capacity and that bind up

minerals. We have a lot of science to implicate these things. And then we want to look at, can we filter our water and air so that we can actually preserve a little space, like a little sanctuary in our home environment, where we obviously spend a fair amount of time, that actually, again, sends a signal of safety to our genes instead of basically screaming at them. Well, this is interesting news. It's a subject that's fascinated me, and I like what you're saying. Personally, I don't believe everything you're saying, just because of my own personal experience.

But because I know of people who live a very healthy life, they're still depressed. They can't get a whole lot healthier. They still have depression, so now what do they do? Yeah, well, there's actually a lot that they can do, and that's a lot of what I explore. It comes down to very basic diagnostics, again, that we are not taught in medical school

because we're really only taught to diagnose major diseases. But there's a lot you can do with lab work that explores those types of diagnoses that are often overlooked, whether it's thyroid dysfunction or autoimmunity or blood sugar balance, for example, these are highly reversible things that your conventionally trained internist is not equipped to diagnose or look for. So that sort of investigative eye is pretty critical, and that's how you can personalize this process. But it's, you know, skepticism is welcome. This is just information, right? So

I am just interested in broadening the conversation about this very important topic and about giving people the fullest expression of the available science so that they can make their own decision about what is best for them. And I have no illusions that this is best for everyone, but I feel pretty fired up about the fact that the average person receiving their first prescription for a psychiatric medication is not going to be told by their prescribing doctor the full, full truth about what the science shows.

But I know people, and I've read enough, and I've talked to other professionals to know that there are plenty of people who swear by their antidepressants that they take. And in fact, it's a fairly common experience for people who are prescribed antidepressants to have to try several of them before one of them actually works. And if it's all placebo, you would think, well, the first one would work. It doesn't matter since it's all placebo anyway. Why wouldn't the first one work?

Why would you choose to believe that the third one worked? So if people take antidepressants, if they swear they're helping, then they're helping, right? Right, and even if it is great, except the long-term data is not so reassuring, right? So the long-term data says, well, what if you just continue doing what felt great after three weeks? And the long-term data suggests that actually the outcomes are worse. So that's something we have to reckon with, right?

Like nobody likes that information, including me, because I have started hundreds of people on medication for their first time. But we have to accept and acknowledge that that is literally, there's literally not a single study, not one, that shows that taking medication long-term, you're better off. So what do we do with that? I don't know. It seems to me what we can do with that is say, how do we look at the root cause of your illness? We want to call it an illness.

How do we look at the root cause? How do we look at what might be totally reversible about it so it's not actually a life sentence? And then once we address that, then actually coming off medication not only will be easier, but in fact, you'll no longer need it because you've addressed the root cause, right? It's sort of like the analogy we use in functional medicine is you don't want to take a Tylenol for a piece of glass in your foot, but if you take a Tylenol for a piece of glass in your foot, you might not feel it for a while, but eventually it's going to be nice to just like take the piece of glass out and then you won't need the Tylenol for a piece of glass in your foot, you might not feel it for a while, but eventually it's going to be nice to just like take the piece of glass out and then you won't need the Tylenol. So that's this concept. And it's really just something to feel into and explore.

It may not be resonant for everyone, but as someone who came over from the other side, you know, I can't unknow this stuff. I can't unsee it this way anymore. But I fully acknowledge that every single person is entitled to their own health journey and their own health care decisions. I'm just very passionate about informed consent. Well, fair enough. And certainly if people are looking at a lifetime of antidepressant medication, it's certainly well worth taking a look at other alternatives that you outlined that might work even better. My guest has been psychiatrist Dr. Kelly Brogan. She is author of the book A Mind of Your Own,

and there is a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. Appreciate you being here, doctor. Thank you. Even if you don't wear Chanel perfume, the perfume you do wear was at least partially inspired by Chanel. Let me explain. Chanel No. 5 is the most famous and popular perfume of all time. Yet it has such an odd name. Why? Well, when Coco Chanel introduced it in 1921, it changed the perfume industry forever. Up until then, perfumes were extracted

from flowers and smelled very flowery. But Chanel wanted something that evoked more femininity than flowery, so she hired a chemist who presented her with several different concoctions. They were numbered 1 through 5 and 20 through 24. At first, Coco Chanel liked number 22 and offered it for sale. Chanel 22 is still available today, but Coco eventually decided that number 5 was the real winner and she saw no reason to change the name. Chanel No. 5 is a very complicated formula with approximately 80 ingredients, and that formula is known only to a handful of people. Because of the success of Chanel No. 5 perfume, Coco Chanel always presented her new clothing collections every year on February 5th and August 5th.

And that is something you should know. If you enjoy this podcast, please take a moment and share it with someone you know. If everybody did that, we'd double our audience. That may be a bit optimistic, but help me try. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide

when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity.

The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network.

At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.