Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: How to Avoid Eating Plastic & Overcoming Cognitive Bias

Episode Date: April 16, 2022

Every year a lot of pedestrians crossing the street get hit by cars and trucks. If you are often a pedestrian walking the streets, there is one technique that will drastically reduce your risk of getting hit. This episode begins with that simple technique that could save your life. http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-key-to-crossing-the-street-safely-eye-contact-1427734205 I hate to tell you this but you are eating a lot of plastic. You may think you aren’t - but you are. Consumer Reports has taken a look at all the plastic on the planet and how it is creeping into your system, Listen as I talk with Kevin Loria, the author of this very important article in Consumer Reports. You will hear his advice how to avoid consuming so much plastic. Here is a link to the article if you would like to read it.  (https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2020/06/index.htm)  Have you heard of cognitive biases? We all have them. It is when we judge people based on how they look or how they speak – positive or negative. For example, people who speak with foreign accents are often not considered as trustworthy as people who do not have an accent. Good looking people are often perceived to be smarter – just because they are attractive. Gleb Tsipursky is a cognitive neuroscientist and behavioral economist and he is author of the book The Blindspots Between Us: How to Overcome Unconscious Cognitive Bias and Build Better Relationships. (https://amzn.to/2SH5m5r). Listen as he explains the problem with cognitive bias and what we can all do to be more aware of how we are judging people and how to stop. Ginger ale is a very popular beverage on airplane flights - even for people who seldom drink it at home. Why? I will explain the reason and tell you if it is something you should try the next time you take a flight somewhere. http://www.rd.com/advice/travel/crave-ginger-ale-on-planes/ PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! We really like The Jordan Harbinger Show! Check out https://jordanharbinger.com/start OR search for it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen!  Go to https://Shopify.com/sysk, ALL LOWERCASE, for a FREE fourteen-day trial and get full access to Shopify’s entire suite of features! Truebill is the smartest way to manage your finances. The average person saves $720 per year with Truebill. Get started today at https://Truebill.com/SYSK! With Avast One, https://avast.com you can confidently take control of your online world without worrying about viruses, phishing attacks, ransomware, hacking attempts, & other cybercrimes! Put down your phone when you drive! . Remember U Drive. U Text. U Pay. Brought to you by NHTSA.   Use SheetzGo on the Sheetz app! Just open the app, scan your snacks, tap your payment method and go!  https://www.geico.com Bundle your policies and save! It's Geico easy! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, a lot of pedestrians get hit by cars. I have a technique that will help make sure you're not one of them. Then, what you can do to stop eating so much plastic. And you eat a lot.

So we know that plastic does break off of packaging that's around our food. We know that when you open up a plastic water bottle or you tear open a bag that has chips or a sandwich inside of it, that there are some kind of microplastic fragments that are released into what you're going to drink or what you're going to eat. Plus, why do people buy so much ginger ale on airplane flights? And should you? And you have cognitive biases. You judge people based on superficial things. I'll give you an example. You can probably hear that I obviously have an accent. Americans, unfortunately, trust those who have a foreign accent much less than those who don't have a foreign accent. Those people who have a foreign accent are given less credit than they deserve.

All this today on Something You Should Know. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars.

Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts.

And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome to Something You Should Know. You've probably noticed when you go out, if you go out, that there are far fewer cars on the road than there used to be. But you've probably noticed, or at least I've noticed where I live, there are far more pedestrians out walking around just to get out and get some air and some exercise. And one of the things that happens when

cars and pedestrians are in the same area is people get hit by cars. But there is an interesting way to make sure that you don't get hit by a car when you're crossing the street. And that is to make eye contact with the driver. A study found that drivers stop more often when pedestrians look them directly in the eye. And men drivers are more likely to stop than women. Why? Why does this work? Well, eye contact has been shown to enhance a person's status and dominance, and it may be seen as an

implicit order to stop. Another explanation is that a driver is trying to make a good impression on the pedestrian, but whatever the reason, it does improve the chances that that driver will stop and you won't get hit. Also interesting, drivers are more likely to stop for hitchhikers who look them in the eye. And that is something you should know. A few years ago, there was a cover story on an issue of Consumer Reports that was titled, How to Eat Less Plastic. And I looked at it and thought, wait, less plastic? I like to think I'm not eating any plastic. And then the smaller headline under the big headline says,

you may be consuming as much as a credit card's worth of plastic a week. Well, I don't like the sound of that. So I got the person who wrote the story to come on and talk about this. And so here is Kevin Loria. He is a science journalist for Consumer Reports and author of the cover story, How to Eat Less Plastic. Hey, Kevin. Hey, how are you? Great. Or I was great till I found out I'm eating a credit card's worth of plastic every week. Yeah, it's a really shocking statistic. And I should say that, you know, there are different estimates for how much plastic we're eating or ingesting.

You know, we're eating it, we're drinking it, we're breathing it. That figure, five grams a week, is one preliminary estimate from some researchers in Australia. So we're eating, you know, we don't know exactly what it is, you know, but we know that we're ingesting a significant amount of plastic. The question is kind of what that's doing to us. So let's go back. I mean, plastic is ubiquitous. It's everywhere. It's in everything. But where did it come from? We have produced, I think it's more than 10 billion tons of plastic now, you know, humanity, mostly since the 1950s. And it is primarily a product of fossil fuels.

And so since the 1950s, we've made more and more of it. And I think it was 1907 that the first kind of fully synthetic plastic was made. But, you know, we've made most of it since then, and we continue to make more and more of it. I think in 2018, plastic production around the globe was close to 400 million tons. So I didn't realize until I saw the article in Consumer Reports that you wrote that nylon is considered plastic. I guess I thought nylon was kind of its own category, but nylon is plastic, right? Yes, it is. So one of the confusing things about plastics is that there are so many things, you know, we think of a plastic bag or a plastic water bottle as plastic, and those are plastic, but nylon and a lot of the other fabric that we wear, you know, polyester is a form of plastic.

Kevlar is a plastic. So you have this bullet-stopping material, which is plastic, which is, you know, we think of it as like a flimsy plastic bag, but, you know, the range and applications and in kind of form and function can vary widely. And so what happens to plastic? Maybe we haven't been around long enough to know what happens to plastic, but is it supposed to biodegrade? What ultimately is plastic's fate? We don't know exactly how long it takes for plastic to break down. You know, we can speculate hundreds of years in certain cases, but, you know, obviously most of it hasn't been around for that long. None of it has. And so we can't say for sure. We do think that basically it doesn't really disappear

forever. What it does is break down into smaller and smaller fragments. So we talk about microplastics, which you hear about microplastics in the ocean, but microplastics are everywhere. That just refers to pieces of plastic that are five millimeters in length or smaller. And then you get kind of into the realm of nanoplastics that are even smaller than that. But basically, plastic piles up around the globe, and over time, it breaks down into these smaller and smaller pieces. These pieces can be found everywhere at this point in time. They're in snow in the Arctic. They're in the sand of Hawaiian beaches. And they are in the food that we eat, the water that we drink, and the air that we breathe.

And so part of the concern with kind of making so much plastic in the first place is that, we've made more than 10 billion tons, as I said, and less than 10% of it has ever been recycled. You know, most of it is, you know, eventually, you know, some of it's incinerated, which is kind of a separate issue, and there are some separate concerns around that. But most of it just kind of piles up in landfills where it breaks down over time and kind of contributes to this microplastic burden. Does plastic lend itself to recycling? used to make different forms of them, you know, it might look like the plastic bottle that you're holding or looking at is one thing, but really you have kind of a, you know, you might have different types of plastic and different chemicals in there to give it, you know, its durability and

flexibility, so on and so forth. And so what happens is a lot of these products can't really be used by recyclers in the end. So part of it, you know, plastics are less recyclable than people think that they are. Even the ones that are fairly recyclable, you know, when they're recycled, they're often turned into kind of lower quality products, things like a, you know, a synthetic rug of some kind that, you know, that can't be recycled in the end. So it turns out that, you know, what we think of as plastic recycling, you know, it sounds good and we're hopeful about it, but it's often kind of a myth, unfortunately. The idea of eating, ingesting plastic, it doesn't sound good. I don't know what the science says, but just the thought of me having plastic in my diet sounds gross.

But what is the science? What's the harm? What's the damage done by ingesting all this plastic? When we talk about ingesting plastic and harm, there are kind of two separate things that we need to talk about, you know, two related but distinct stories. So one has to do with the chemicals that are in plastic, you know, and the most well-known ones are chemicals like BPA and phthalates that we know a fair amount about, a lot about at this point in time, and we know that they are causing, that, you know, that these chemicals are linked to real health harms in people. The other story that we can talk about is, you know, this microplastic ingestion,

whatever the total quantity is, these little kind of plastic fragments that we can talk about is, you know, this microplastic ingestion, whatever the total quantity is, these little kind of plastic fragments that we're drinking and breathing and eating, we don't exactly know what harm, you know, that's so new. And our understanding of microplastics and microplastic ingestion is so new that we don't really have a good grasp on kind of what harm that might be doing yet. But, you know, there are some theories there. So some researchers are concerned that, you know, especially some of the smaller microplastic fragments, you know, some of the nanoplastics that we breathe in, you know, those could get, you know, embedded in the lung and they might cause some sort of inflammatory response or some sort of tissue damage. We know that they get small enough that

they can cross barriers in the body that we normally don't want kind of outside substances to cross. We know that they can cross through the placental barrier from a mother into a fetus, and we know that inside the body they can cross the blood-brain barrier. So while we don't know what we're doing yet, what they're doing yet, that is concerning in the first place. The other possibility is that these microplastic and nanoplastic fragments could potentially be releasing chemicals into the body. And those could be chemicals that they've picked up in the environment. Basically, they're just kind of chemicals that we have manufactured over time that we may not want. We don't make them anymore, but they're still out there. Microplastic fragments can pick those up

and we may ingest them that way. And then we've talked about the fact that there are these other chemicals in plastics that we do know are harmful. And it's possible that microplastics could release those chemicals into us as well, increasing our exposure to those substances. And, you know, while we don't know exactly what the story is there yet, that's something that researchers are concerned about. suggesting roughly a credit card's worth of plastic a week. How? Where is it coming from? When I drink through a straw, is plastic getting in my drink? If I eat with a plastic fork, am I getting some off? Where is that coming from? So we know that plastic does break off of the utensils that we use and the packaging that's around our food.

We know that when you open up a plastic water bottle or you tear open a bag that has, you know, chips or a sandwich inside of it, that there are some kind of microplastic fragments that are released then into, you know, what you're going to drink or what you're going to eat. We also know that because microplastics have washed into our water supplies and food supplies over time, that they're just out there. So, you know, tap water has some level of microplastic in it everywhere around the world. You know, what researchers have seen is that, you know, bottled water has about twice as much, you know, at least according to one study, bottled water has about twice the microplastic

level of tap water. So if you want to ingest less of it, tap water is probably a better option than bottled water. And, you know, that is probably because bottled water is, you know, surrounded by plastic in the first place, but some of it's already going to be there just because it's already in our water supply. One of the things I've always wondered about is, as you just mentioned, you know, if water is sitting in a plastic bottle, does that mean plastic is getting into the water? And if I put a sandwich in a sandwich bag and then eat the sandwich later, is there plastic in my sandwich? And if I put broccoli in a plastic bag at the market, is plastic coming off of that bag and getting into my broccoli?

So I think that's a really good question. And we don't know all of the answers to that. We do know that in certain cases, plastic does kind of leach from the material itself into food that we consume. We know that that happens most frequently in the presence of heat. So if you microwave something in plastic, like in a plastic Tupperware, that's going to increase the chance that chemicals from plastic are going to enter your food. We know that, you know, fatty foods can absorb these chemicals from plastic containers. Whether or not plastic is directly coming from your water bottle or whether or not chemicals in plastic are coming from your water bottle, you know, you're probably getting some microplastic fragments from it. The degree to which, you know, that contributes compared to

other levels from your diet, I think that we just need more data. We need more research on that right now. We're talking about plastic and how it affects all of us. And we're talking with Kevin Loria. He is a science journalist. And he wrote an article for Consumer Reports in an issue from a couple of years ago called How to Eat Less Plastic. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla

who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know,

you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes.

Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So Kevin, since we're eating all this plastic, a credit card's worth of plastic every week, and the goal is to reduce that, what do we know works to reduce that? So there are several steps that people can take to both reduce their exposure to chemicals and plastic that we know are concerning, and then to kind of just reduce the level of microplastics overall in your diet.

You know, because, you know, even if we don't know what harm those are doing, you know, I don't think there's any harm in lowering the quantity of that. And I think that's appealing for a lot of people. Some of the things that you can do. So I've already mentioned the idea that, you know, when you're looking at what you're drinking, if you can drink something out of a tap or out of a glass jar, instead of out of something plastic, it's probably going to have less plastic in it. When you're heating food up, if you choose to do it in something that's steel or glass, instead of in plastic, you're going to get less of the chemicals that are in plastic. In general, we know that there are microplastics even in our household dust. And so even, you know, vacuuming regularly might lower the amount of microplastics that you're breathing in, you know, that are coming

off of your carpet. And those individual steps, I think, can make perhaps the biggest difference in kind of reducing your exposure to some of the chemicals that are in plastic. because, you know, if you are just trying to limit the contact that your food has with these plastic, that might help reduce the exposure to these chemicals. Kind of on a broader societal level, you know, your individual choices matter in that, you know, if a lot of people make the decision to purchase less products in plastic, then, you know, it's likely that those products are going to become less popular. Consumer Action was pretty successful at getting BPA out of a lot of products. And while that wasn't a perfect solution, it didn't kind of solve all problems related to

BPA and similar chemicals. It did show that when people choose to say, hey, we don't want these chemicals or we don't want products in these plastic, it can make a difference. What about things like, I mean, yeah, I'd like to use less plastic, but you can't go to the supermarket and buy meat that doesn't come in plastic. And if you're going to wrap your food up, you're going to cover it with plastic. And if you don't cover it with plastic, well, then you're probably going to cover it with aluminum foil. And then we hear that's a problem, too. So what do you do?

I mean, it's a hard question. And I think that it's the sort of thing where we kind of just do need more solutions. And we need some of the manufacturers for certain products to kind of hopefully come up with some innovative solutions. You know, I have had some people say that, you know, when you buy meat, you could maybe have it wrapped in parchment paper or, you know, you could potentially, in theory, have it put inside some sort of glass Tupperware. I'm not sure how the weighing it and purchasing it would go, but that might be an option of some kind. It's, you know, it's very hard to leave the grocery store without some plastic. What do we know, though, if we get it to the point where the plastic that we're concerned about goes in a landfill and eliminating for the moment, for purposes of the discussion that filling up landfills with plastic may not be a great idea. But once it's in there, are we okay? Or does it still pose a threat if once we've thrown it away and it got it in a landfill and it's all covered up and gone?

I think that a lot of researchers would tell you that it's still a concern in the landfill. And that's because, you know, over time, those plastic products that are piling up by the hundreds of millions of tons in landfills, they are going to break down. And those little fragments are going to get out into the environment. And when we look at the way that plastic production is projected to increase over the coming decades, at a certain point in time, you've got to figure out where's there space for all of this plastic to go. You know, we're talking, you know, we've made 10 billion tons of plastic since the 1950s, but we've made half of that in the last 13 years or so. And, you know, we made approximately, you know, close to 400 million tons of plastic in 2018. And I think production of plastic is

supposed to, you know, almost quadruple by 2050. So if all of that keeps on piling up in landfills, I think that there's the concern that over time, you know, it does break down and get to the environment. And you do kind of run into this question of where is it really piling up? And, you know, how big of an impact is it having on environments everywhere because of that. You would be a good person to ask this. I think everybody has heard about the horrors of plastic straws and that some cities, jurisdictions have outlawed plastic straws. But I don't know that I ever understood exactly what the harm was specifically about plastic straws as opposed to plastic anything else. Can you shed some light on that? I think that plastic straws are an interesting question because while they are a single-use plastic item, and I think a lot of researchers would say it's best to get rid of single-use plastics as much as possible, I don't think that they are inherently more harmful than any other form of single-use plastic, whether that's a plastic bag or a plastic cup.

And unlike some of those other items, I do think that with plastic straws, you do have kind of a real legitimate use for them. I think that there are people in the disabled community who say that they kind of need them to be able to drink easily, especially if they're purchasing something in a restaurant. So I think that with plastic straws and with some other single-use products, perhaps until we have better forms of paper straws, perhaps there's a way to kind of figure out, they don't need to go to everybody, but they can be made available as needed. I think that there are solutions that can be found there. But I thought there was something specific about plastic straws

and turtles or seagulls. I mean, wasn't it supposedly killing off animals? There have been some horrific videos of, you know, I remember one horrific video in particular where a researcher is pulling a plastic straw. I believe it's out of a turtle's nose that's just gotten embedded in its head. And it is, you know, graphic and, you know, something awful and something that kind of really shows how plastics, as they get out into the environment, can be really harmful and really problematic. You know, that said, you know, you can find that with straws, but you can also find pictures of, you know, birds and whales that have their stomachs and their bodies clogged with plastic particles and bags. So I don't know that straws kind of stand out in comparison to these other things. But I think that the turtle video that went around really had a strong impact on a lot of people. Do you have any sense that any of this concern about plastic is overstated? That perhaps,

you know, it sounds like plastic is artificial, we shouldn't have it, it's not, you know, earth-friendly, it's not organic, and we need to get rid of it because of that, but that there isn't really the science to support that, that maybe plastic isn't as bad as people say? I have no idea. I'm just posing the question, could this be, you know, do-goodism gone a little too far? I think that that's a good question, and I think it's a fair point to make, and especially when we talk about things like plastic. It's clear, for example, that, you know, we all have been using plastic, you know, most of us for most of our lives. And, you know, for the most part, it's not causing us to, to, you know, drop dead. It's not like using and it's not as harmful, you know, I'd rather drink something out of about some of, you know, we do have concrete data about some of the harms from, if not from microplastics, from some of the chemicals associated with plastic. Pediatrics, who has told me that I think phthalates are linked to something like 100,000 cardiac deaths in adult men every year. Whether or not some of the concern is overstated is still a fair point. I think that plastics are necessary for certain functions, or if not necessary, then

perhaps just the best option for certain functions. You know, I think that right now, it's very easy to see that there are plastic products that are needed in hospitals for protective equipment and to, you know, help with ventilators. And, you know, there are kind of all sorts of uses that are necessary. And I don't think that most people would say that you want to get rid of any

of that stuff, that, you know, we do need those things. At the same time, the question is whether or not we need all of this single-use plastic that we encounter, and whether or not the real, in certain cases, from chemicals and plastic, or potential from microplastics, whether or not the real or potential risk is worth it. And I would say that, you know, when it comes to those disposable single use plastics for which we have other alternatives, you know, I think that if you kind of take a precautionary approach to it, then it would seem to make sense that, you know, it might be better to avoid at least the uses that don't seem really necessary. Well, one of the concerns that I have about plastic, because I don't think people realize, I think people have this sense of comfort knowing that if they put plastic

in the recycle thing and the guy comes and takes it from the curb once a week and that that all gets recycled and that, so we're okay. We've got the plastic thing going on. But in fact, and correct me if I'm wrong, that a lot of that plastic just ends up in the landfill along with the rest of the garbage because there's no market for it. Recycling plastic bottles is not a big business. Yeah, absolutely. So especially, you know, until very recently, we basically used to send the majority of of plastic for recycling coming from other countries anymore, that it's mostly too dirty and not recyclable and not worth recycling in the first place. So, you know, right now, at this point in time, most of the plastic that we're putting out there, I think that very little of it is actually getting recycled.

Well, it's kind of gross to think about that we're eating all this plastic, but at least now we know a little more about it and what we can do to avoid it. Kevin Loria has been my guest. He wrote an article for Consumer Reports a few years ago about how to eat less plastic. And if you'd like to read the article, there's a link to it in the show notes for this episode. Thanks, Kevin. Appreciate it. Yeah, thank you. I really appreciate it. Then we have But Am I Wrong, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong. And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover.

We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown, wherever you get your podcasts. There's something called cognitive bias. Cognitive biases are, I guess, sort of like filters by which you judge other people. And because of them, we often misjudge other people. You may subconsciously be turned off by a person's accent or their weight or even the color of their skin. Not in a deliberate or malicious way.

It's just your cognitive bias. You might be more trusting of somebody who has blue eyes and blonde hair than someone with dark hair and dark eyes. It's just a cognitive bias. We all have them. Gleb Sipersky is a cognitive neuroscientist and behavioral economist and author of the book, The Blind Spots Between Us, How to Overcome Unconscious Cognitive Bias and Build Better Relationships. I, Gleb, welcome to Something You Should Know. Thank you so much for having me on, Michael. It's a pleasure to be on. So explain in a more complete and scientific way what cognitive bias is.

Cognitive bias is one of the dangerous decision making errors we make because of how our brain is wired. One of the really interesting things and unfortunate things about our brain is that we are not wired to live in the modern environment. The modern environment has really been around only since World War II. And our intuitions, our gut reactions, our instincts, our mental patterns are wired for the savannah environment. When we lived in small tribes of 15 people to 150 people, we were hunters, gatherers, foragers, and so on. So our instincts, our gut reactions are wired for that environment.

But the crucial thing about cognitive biases is that these are the errors, the dangerous, systematic, and predictable decision-making errors we make in the modern environment, because we're not wired for the modern environment. Unfortunately, since they're systematic and predictable, we can figure out what they are and address them effectively. And so those kind of errors cause problems. How, for example? One of the errors that causes us problems in our relationships is due to tribalism. So think about tribalism. We lived in small tribes of 15 people to 150 people, as I mentioned. It was really important for us to look for people who look like us, who care about the same things that we do, who share our values.

We were very tribal. Otherwise, if we weren't sufficiently tribal, we'd be kicked out of our tribe and we'd die. Or we wouldn't protect our tribe sufficiently from hostile tribes that would be encroaching on its territory, attacking it. And then we'd die as well. So we are the descendants of those people who didn't die. So we are as well. So we are the descendants of those people who didn't die. So we are very tribal. That means that in the modern environment, we look for people who look like us, who share values and so on. And we trust them more than they should be trusted.

That's called the halo effect. So the halo effect is like somebody has a little halo on their head. It's when we specifically give people more credit than they deserve, just because we feel that they are part of our tribe in some way. And we are reluctant to argue against them when they say stupid things. We are reluctant to acknowledge when they may not deserve our trust. So that's kind of one area where we trust people too much who appear like they're part of our tribe. And is the reverse of that true that we tend to not trust people who don't look like they belong in our tribe? You're exactly right, Michael. That's called the horns effect.

So people who look like they don't belong to our tribe or who don't share our values, who don't share our thinking patterns, we trust them less and give them less credit. I'll give you an example. You can probably hear that I'm not from around here. I obviously have an accent. My parents came from this small country in Eastern Europe called Moldova when it was freed from Soviet domination. So 1991, I was born in 81, they came in 1991, and we settled in New York City. So I still have an accent from when I left when I was 10 years old. And what I found out later when researching these topics, accents and so on, is that Americans, unfortunately trust those who have a foreign accent much less than they trust those who don't have a foreign accent.

Those people who have a foreign accent are given less credit than they deserve, less trust than they deserve. That's called accent discrimination. And it's one of the many ways that we make bad choices about people who we should trust and shouldn't trust. There's actually one accent for which there isn't accent discrimination. Can you guess what that is, Michael? British? You're absolutely right. They still have that colonial imperialism going for them. The accent thing, is it foreign accents? Because I've heard that within the United States

people discriminate regional accents, that people make assumptions about people that speak with a southern accent or with a northeastern boston kind of accent is it or is it just foreign accents it's definitely foreign accents now within the united states it depends on which region you're in so if you are somebody from the south where other people have southern accents then you will be trusted more by other southerners. So that's regionally dependent.

If you're in the Northeast, you have a Northeast accent in New York. I grew up in New York City, so my family came to New York City. That's where I grew up. I have that bit of a New York tang. And so people in New York area will trust those with New York accents more. So that depends on where you are in the United States. So you need to learn about where you might have a halo effect or a horns effect toward other people. And that's one of many cognitive biases. But you need to learn about that and compensate for it. So if I hear someone

who has an accent that appears weird to me, whether it's someone who has a foreign accent or someone from a region of the US that is not a region with which I'm familiar. I make sure to compensate for it by saying, hey, I intuitively will give, I know this is my feeling. I will feel that this person is less credible, less trustworthy than they actually should be, than they actually are when they're saying whatever they're saying. So I will give them more credit. I will compensate for it. And that's one of the strategies that you have to do in order to address these dangerous judgment errors, which causes so much trouble in our relationships. Well, it's interesting, and I don't want to pick on your accent, but as you just said, you feel like Americans with their American

accent are part of your tribe because you grew up listening to it, and so it's natural for you. But people you meet hear you, and they don't necessarily feel like you're part of their tribe because of that cognitive bias. You're absolutely right. And the same case goes for other people who are in the United States who feel like they're Americans and who are Americans, I mean, in all relevant ways, but who are not, are in some way discriminated against.

So obviously, accent discrimination is only one form of discrimination. There's racism, sexism, ableism, LGBTQ kind of discrimination, discrimination based on age, discrimination based on height. Interesting fact, the people, males specifically, who are short get discriminated against because they don't, it seems to the average male, and female by the way, that short males are lower on the social status hierarchy, which was natural in the Savannah environment, because if you have a short male in the tribe, then they're not going to be that great at the hunting and fighting other males from foreign tribes,

so you probably wouldn't want to place them high in a social hierarchy. Of course, right now, that's not the case where we don't really fight others unless you're in a very specific career path. We overwhelmingly use technology computers to interact with each other. So being short or being tall doesn't really matter. But still people discriminate against short males. Or same thing with obesity. People who are obese are discriminated against.

So I, with my accent, that's only one out of many ways, out of many formulations of discrimination in the United States among people who are actually part of the broader U.S. tribe. And this is one of the things that we have to deal with. We live in a very complex, multipolar, global society, and these halo and horns effects affect us in very negative and harmful ways. I'll give you an interesting story about this. Here in Columbus, Ohio, the big football team is the Ohio State Buckeyes. Everyone is a fan, almost everyone is a fan of the Buckeyes here in central Ohio and

Columbus, where I'm based. I was giving a presentation at a diversity and inclusion conference to HR professionals, leaders who are experts in diversity and inclusion. This was the closing workshop of the conference. And our big football rivals is the University of Michigan Wolverines. So there's over 100 leaders, HR leaders of diversity and inclusion. And I asked them, hey, how many of you would hire a University of Michigan fan? And you know what, of the over 100 people, only three of them indicated, raised their hand

and said they'd hire a University of Michigan fan. I actually have a video of this. So this is an example of where diversity inclusion experts obviously fall into the same sort of discriminatory impulses in areas that they're not watching out for, such as sports teams. Wow, that really amazes me. I mean, I went to a big football school. I went to USC, University of Southern California, and, you know, there's a big rivalry with UCLA. But, you know, I think in many ways it begins and ends on the football field. It's weird to think that you wouldn't hire somebody because they went to UCLA. But I guess for many people it goes much deeper. But here in that example, these are people who are supposed to see through that

and and understand that and and they don't or three of them do but most of them don't well people in the room weren't really aware of it it's not like they ever thought to themselves hey i will deliberately not hire university of michigan. That's not how people feel. Just like they don't feel that they will not deliberately not hire somebody who is a minority, somebody who is a woman, somebody who is black, and so on. But we have very clear studies. So if you have a resume sent out and you have the same resume, but it has a woman's name and it has a man's name, the women will get many less callbacks than men. If it has a name that appears to be African American versus a name that appears to

be white, you know, Lashana or something like that, the people who have an African American sounding name or Hispanic sounding name will get many less callbacks than the people who don't have mainstream white male names. So that's an example of where that powerful discrimination will come in without people being aware of it. It's not like people know that they're doing it. And just like somebody, if it says on their resume that they have a University of Michigan degree, the recruiter will just intuitively like that person less.

If they are a recruiter in Columbus, Ohio, then they will not give them the credit that they deserve, despite this person might be just as good or even better for a job than somebody else. And I imagine the same would hold true for people in Michigan who would feel the same way about Ohio State Buckeye people. That's exactly right, and I'm sure the same thing will hold for USC and UCLA because that's a way that people feel. It's not really about shallowness.

It's about our emotional investment. And people invest a lot of emotional energy into sports teams. You can see that by the way they cheer in the stadiums and so on, some more than others, right? So the more emotional investment you have in your local sports team or whatever it may be, the more you will feel it's part of your tribe and you're part of that tribe, the more likely you're hired to, you are to hire a USC fan, even though they don't deserve to be hired compared to somebody else who maybe, you know, went to some other university and especially the unlikely to hire the UCLA fan.

So you have the halo effect for USC fan, you have the horns effect for UCLA fans, and then neutral for other people in general. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm, I'm kind of hearing two things in what you're saying. I'm hearing that human beings have cognitive biases. We just do. We tend to be more trusting and like people who are more like us and less trusting of people who are not like us. And it is totally human to do that, but also that those cognitive biases cause problems and we need to change them. But how do you really effectively change something that's human and normal? It's normal, it's natural, it's primitive, it's savage. The same way that in the savannah environment, it was really important for us when we came across any source of sugar to eat as much of it as possible honey apples you know bananas whatnot in the modern environment we have a lot of sugar we have tons of sugar so in the modern environment it's very dangerous for us to

follow our impulse our natural it's just as natural to follow the impulse to eat a dozen donuts as it is to be tribal and discriminate in various ways. Fortunately, we have learned that most of us have learned at least that it's a bad idea to eat a box of dozen donuts when we get them from Dunkin' Donuts. One donut is okay, two donuts, you know, maybe, but you got to stop at that third donut. Otherwise, it's really not going to be good for you. You're really going to have a lot of health problems if you keep doing that. Of course, we have the obesity epidemic here in this country, partially because some people have invested a lot of efforts, a lot of energy into their physical fitness, into knowing how to make good decisions about their eating habits, their physical health. And people are able to go against these instincts, these intuitions, these impulses by using structure and by developing healthy habits, healthy physical habits around what they eat.

So that's kind of an example where people have succeeded. Now we need to translate the same issues, the same principles to becoming mentally fit. People pay a lot of attention to their physical fitness, but not nearly enough to their mental fitness. And becoming mentally fit means learning about these cognitive biases, learning about these dangerous judgment errors, where the halo effect and the horns effect are just two examples of the very many cognitive biases. So we need to learn about these and then learn about the principles, the strategies, the techniques that we can use. So when I see someone, hear someone who has an accent that's different from the mainstream American accent, I make sure to internally note that I'm mindful about that, that I focus

on it. I know that this is an issue and then I compensate for it. So what are some of the other biases that we may not be aware of? One of the biggest ones in relationships is called the illusion of transparency. So the illusion of transparency has to do with us being able to communicate effectively. Unfortunately, we are much less able to communicate effectively than we think we are. What happens is that, and that's called the illusion of transparency, we think we're transparent. We think that whatever we say,

the other person hears and interprets in exactly the way that we mean. And that's completely not the case. The thing that we say, people may have different interpretations of the specific words that we say, and we may not be as clear as we think we are. The words that are coming out of our mouth

might not be as clear as we think they are. And the other people have a filter in their understanding. And this is only about the words. There's so much other content that gets shared, body language, tone, and so on, that people find much more difficult to read than you would expect. So I describe a story in my book that's actually a good example of what happens. There was a story of two of my acquaintances who went on a date together, George and Mary. Names are hidden, but approximately

George and Mary. So, well, they went out on a date. George, he really thought it was a great date. He thought, you know, Mary was so understanding, such a wonderful listener. He told her all about himself. He felt that she truly got him, that she really cared unlike many other women that he dated. And they parted and they agreed on another date soon. So then George texted Mary to arrange the next date, but Mary didn't text back. So George waited for a day, sent Mary a Facebook message. Mary saw it, as George noticed, Facebook allows that, but she didn't send the reply. He sent her an email, but Mary maintained radio silence. And then he gave up contacting her and he started complaining

to others around him about her, including me. Well, I knew about Mary. I asked her for her perspectives. What Mary told me is that she had a really different experience than George. She was an introvert. She is an introvert and George is an extrovert. She felt really overwhelmed when he was telling her all about himself, all about his life. And he never asked her about herself and her life. And she thought to herself, why would I date someone like that? She politely listened to him, politely agreed to go on another date, and never intended to go on another date. She's very conflict avoidant. So that's the kind of personality that she is.

So if you think about these widely divergent perspectives, these sorts of interactions happen so often with the illusion of transparency. I'm not saying that George is good. I'm not saying that Mary is good. They both made mistakes. But this is the kind of human mistakes that happen in our social interactions on everyday level all the time because of the illusion of transparency. Give me a couple more. So another one that's really important for folks to address is called the fundamental attribution error. We tend to attribute to ourselves a heroic status. We think we're

great. We think we're wonderful. And other people, we tend to not attribute to ourselves a heroic status. We think we're great. We think we're wonderful. And other people, we tend to not attribute to them great status. We think that they're not as great as they think they are. The fundamental attribution error has to do with how we attribute blame to who we attribute blame. We attribute to ourselves the status of great people. We are the heroes in our own story, and we feel like we can justify our actions. Our actions are always justifiable, even though other people may not

think our actions are so great. By contrast, when we look at other people and we see something that we can interpret in negative ways, we usually tend to interpret it in negative ways as opposed to positive ways. I'll give you an example. So let's say you're driving on the road and somebody cuts you off. You honk on your horn, you think, what a jerk, why did they cut me off? That's a bad, bad thing to do. Well, okay, let's think about another example. You're driving on the road and then you shift lanes and then you realize somebody's honking behind you and that you cut them off. You just didn't see them. They were in your blind spot. And you don't think to yourself, oh, I'm such a jerk. Why did I do that? You think, oh, oops, I didn't see them in my blind spot. I'll try to do better next time. So that's kind of

an example where we don't attribute to ourselves the kind of blame that we would attribute to other people. Well, it's interesting. You said the kind of blame that we would attribute to other people. Well, it's interesting, you said at the very beginning that we all do this. This is human to have these cognitive biases. And yet, I think most of us rarely, if ever, think about them. And so now, after listening to you, it would be easier to put these more in the front of your mind. And when they come up, when you see yourself doing

that or you hear someone talk with an accent or someone who looks different to compensate, as you said, for it could go a long way. The way to fight them is to learn about these errors and then more importantly even than learning about them caring about them that's great advice gleb supersky has been my guest he is a cognitive neuroscientist and behavioral economist and author of the book the blind spots between us how to overcome unconscious cognitive bias and build better relationships. There's a link to his book in the show notes for this episode.

Thank you, Gleb. Great. Thank you, Michael. I appreciate that. Next time you travel on an airplane, and that day will come, there's something that you will notice if you pay attention, that a lot of people order ginger ale to drink on a plane, even though they seldom, if ever, drink it on the ground. Why? Well, ginger has a soothing effect on the stomach, so many people ask for this drink to calm their stomach from the stress of traveling or the turbulence of the plane. But when you look into it, ginger ale doesn't contain anywhere near enough real ginger.

It's really just the carbonation that is settling your stomach, according to one doctor. She says it has more to do with the placebo effect. So what you're buying with your ginger ale is the power of suggestion. We've learned from our mothers and grandmothers who brought us ginger ale and chicken noodle soup when we were sick that ginger ale works. And since it has more to do with the carbonation, you can feel free to order cola or lemon-lime soda instead. It will have you feeling just as good, especially if you believe it. And that is something you should know. And while I've got you here, just take a moment, take a moment and whatever device you're listening to this podcast,

send it to a friend and share it. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro,

who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot,

and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Contained herein are the heresies of Rudolf Buntwine, erstwhile monk turned traveling medical investigator. Join me as I study the secrets of the divine plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth that ours is not a loving God

and we are not its favored children. The Heresies of Randolph Bantwine, wherever podcasts are available.