Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: How to Be More Persuasive & Networking Strategies That Really Work

Episode Date: March 28, 2020

You know when you head up the entrance ramp on a freeway, you have to really “floor it” to get your car up to speed. Is that good for your engine to put the pedal to the metal like that? This episode begins by explaining what revving your engine actually does. http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a25286/how-to-make-you-car-last-longer/ Would you like to be more persuasive? Jay Heinrichs is a real expert at this, having written several books on the topic. One of those books is Thank You for Arguing: What Aristotle, Lincoln, and Homer Simpson Can Teach Us About the Art of Persuasion (http://amzn.to/2uDWt1U). Jay joins me for a lively discussion on what works –and doesn’t work in persuading other people to understand your point of view. When you have to shut down your Wi-Fi or other device, the advice is often to leave it off for 30 seconds or so before restarting. What’s the reason? And do you really have to? http://serverfault.com/questions/32787/where-did-wait-30-seconds-before-turning-it-back-on-come-from And, we take a look at the practice of networking. We have all been told how important it is to get out there and meet people because, well, it can lead to something. But often it only seems to lead to a big pile of business cards and not much else. Larry Mohl, former Chief Learning Officer for Motorola Cellular and American Express and is author of the book Networking is Dead, (http://amzn.to/2tjFpKC) explains how traditional networking doesn’t usually work – and he offers some more efficient and effective ways to connect with people who can help you.  This Week’s Sponsors The Zebra. Compare and save money on car insurance. Go to www.TheZebra.com/sysk  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As a listener to Something You Should Know, I can only assume that you are someone who likes to learn about new and interesting things and bring more knowledge to work for you in your everyday life. I mean, that's kind of what Something You Should Know was all about. And so I want to invite you to listen to another podcast called TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks. Well, you see, TED Talks Daily is a podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday in less than 15 minutes. Join host Elise Hu.

She goes beyond the headlines so you can hear about the big ideas shaping our future. Learn about things like sustainable fashion, embracing your entrepreneurial spirit, the future of robotics, and so much more. Like I said, if you like this podcast, Something You Should Know, I'm pretty sure you're going to like TED Talks Daily. And you get TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts. Today on Something You Should Know, is it ever good to floor it and rev your car's engine? We'll explore that, then discover the scientific way to be more persuasive. If you look at people who are the most persuasive, like salespeople, they tend to be very agreeable people. That is saying, I don't agree with you or you're wrong,

they say, yes, and, and then gradually add to the conversation to the point where they've steered it 180 degrees. Also, when you have to reboot an electronic device, you're often told to leave it off for 30 seconds. Why? I'll answer that. And networking. We're told it's important, but most of us aren't very good at it. When we talk to people about networking, what people tell us is they just hate it.

And when you ask people about how they do it, a lot of what you get is, you know, we go to events, we get a lot of business cards, and we try and find people that can help us. All this today on Something You Should Know. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared.

It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for.

Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome to our SYSK Choice Weekend episode of Something You Should Know. I hope you're holding up well, or as well as possible, as we get through this coronavirus crisis. We're all doing well in my house, and we will all get through this. Life will get back to something resembling normal, hopefully in the very near future. And so I want to start this episode talking about your car,

because at some point you will have places to go and things to do, and you'll be driving around again before you know it. And so, did you know that it is actually good for your car's engine to floor it once in a while? While it's true that high RPMs burn fuel faster and put real strain on some of the components, revving the engine does help clean out carbon deposits that can foul things up. Untreated carbon buildup can cause misfires and reduce performance and require extensive work to clean. Now, you should never rev your car unless the engine is fully warmed up and you're somewhere safe, like a wide open parking lot, or you're merging onto the freeway. And yes,

it will waste some gas, but it's an easy way to make your engine last longer. And that is something you should know. If you think about it, you spend a lot of your time trying to convince and persuade and argue with other people. You do it at home and at work and with that customer service person on the other end of the line. And very often, we are our own worst enemy. Why? Well, what's interesting is that there really is a science of sorts when it comes to persuasion. If you really want to persuade people, there are strategies that have been proven to work. It's just that in the heat of the moment, we tend to do everything incorrectly. We tend to want to be right and prove the other person wrong.

And that's not at all how you persuade someone of anything. Jay Heinrichs is really an expert on persuasion. He's written several books on the subject. One of them is Thank You for Arguing, What Aristotle, Lincoln, and Homer Simpson Can Teach Us About the Art of Persuasion, which, as it turns out, is one of the top ten books assigned at Harvard University. Welcome, Jay. So I notice that oftentimes when people are

in an argument and they're trying to persuade someone of their point of view, the argument often escalates into a fight, and in a fight, everyone wants to win, so there really isn't a lot of persuading going on. Well, first of all, I'm glad you made the distinction between arguing and fighting, because they're not the same thing, even though a lot of people mistake the two. In an argument, you try to win over your opponent or anybody persuadable, whereas in fighting, you're just trying to win on points or through threatening people or whatever. Now, it is hard to persuade people, especially when it comes to politics. But

here's the other mistake that people often make at the beginning of every argument. You often direct your attention to the person you're arguing against. And that seems to make sense, right? Well, you know, actually, you should be paying attention to anyone else who's listening in and see who might be persuadable. So if a person you're talking with will just not be budged, probably the best thing you should do is to figure out how to persuade that person to like and trust you. Don't talk about politics. Work on the relationship itself. And then in the long run, maybe you can move the needle a little bit. In the meantime, look around you. See who might be persuaded by what you're saying.

But I have friends and family who we basically have an unwritten rule that in order to remain friends and family, we don't talk about those things. And we have a relationship, and that's fine as long as those issues don't come up. Yeah, it used to be a rule and polite company, never to bring up religion or politics. That's still a pretty good idea at most Thanksgivings, isn't it? Yeah, it saves a lot of problems. And again, those arguments that people have at Thanksgiving

only end up upsetting people. They don't persuade anybody. You know, I think they actually can. It's just that people's expectations for a single conversation tend to be too high. I mean, I remember, this shows how old I am, I talked my right-wing Republican father, a lifelong Republican, into opposing the Vietnam War. It took me several years. And, you know, I did it lovingly. I tried every trick in the book, and eventually he did come around. I think the problem is when you think that a single conversation is going to change someone's mind, you're just trying, you know, you're trying for the easy route.

The first thing you need to do is to get the person to think that you're a sensible, trustworthy person. There are all kinds of ways to do that. Then gradually let the conversation flow. And again, this can take weeks, months, or even years. So what is persuasion? Is it a skill? Is it a technique? Is it a process? What is it? Well, you know, I go by the ancient Greeks and Romans. That's where I got this stuff in the first place, starting with the philosopher Aristotle, who wrote his best book about rhetoric, The Art of Persuasion. And Aristotle made the best definition of persuasion, which is that it comes in three ways.

First of all, you've got what he called forensic rhetoric, which is, you know, the language of forensics. It's used in the courtroom. It takes part in the past tense. If you hear somebody blame you for something, who left the toilet seat up, you know, the bathroom? That's forensic rhetoric. And you often hear that in politics. What did Hillary do in the past, you know? That rarely leads to an agreement because people resent being accused of things, and husbands and wives often do it to each other to their own detriment, okay? Second kind of persuasion or rhetoric is called demonstrative rhetoric. I call it tribal rhetoric because it has to do with what's good or bad,

or worse, who is good and who is bad. I call it tribal rhetoric because it shows who belongs in the realm of good people and who belong among the bad people. And this often ruins our politics because it makes anybody feel like an outsider, not willing to, you know, argue. Aristotle's favorite kind of persuasion was what he called deliberative rhetoric, which is about choices. It takes place in the future. You're talking about the future. What are we going to do to solve this problem? Can I tell you a quick story? Sure. My son, George, when he was 15 years old, turned into a master persuader. I didn't know he was at the time, but I found myself alone in the bathroom

with an empty tube of toothpaste. And being the father of a 15-year-old son, I knew who the likely culprit was. So I shouted through the closed door of the bathroom, George, that's my son, who used up all the toothpaste? And I hear this sarcastic voice from the other side saying, that's not the point. Is it, Dad? The point is, how are we going to keep this from happening again? Now, I had been talking about the tools of rhetoric for years, not knowing that he was ever listening to me. So I was kind of excited that he had been. So I let him win. I said, George, you win. Now, will you please get me a tube of toothpaste? And he ran down to the basement and got me a tube. Now, who won that argument? you know, talk about the future and solutions to the problem. Now, on the other hand, I use the art of concession, which is where you let the other person win on points. But actually, you set a goal that's a larger goal that lets you win something.

And in my case, I got a teenager to run an errand willingly. So I figure that's a triumph of persuasion right there. So that's your ultimate definition, you know, winning whatever it is you want in some way that makes everybody feel they want. That's a rare occasion, I admit it, but it's what the best of rhetoric leads to. Well, that brings up the... how many times have people said, you know, who left the milk on the counter? Well, that's really not the issue. I mean, does it really matter who left the milk on the counter, or who used up the toothpaste, or why is the door open?

It doesn't solve anything, and knowing the answer to that question is useless. Right. There's a psychologist named John Gottman who conducted a famous series of experiments some years ago at the University of Wisconsin in a place that came to be known fondly as the Love Lab, because what he did was he had his research assistants and grad students videotape conversations among married couples and then tried to predict which ones would stay married. And what's interesting is that both the couples who ended up married for a long time and those who got divorced argued the same amount. In other words, they disagreed openly with each other about the same amount of time and with the same frequency.

The difference was the couples who stayed married argued in such a way that they weren't trying to prove that the other person was a jerk. You know, they were actually trying to solve problems. So you look at the milk occasion, you know, who left the milk on the counter? You know, the question is, are you going to argue about how to keep the milk from showing up on the counter all the time? Or are you using this milk as a proof that the other person is evil? Now, that's the difference between deliberative rhetoric, you know, making choices in common, which is what rhetoric should be used best for, or if you're using demonstrative rhetoric to prove that the other

person is a bad person. You can see which one leads to the better marriage. Sure, sure. My guest is Jay Heinrichs. He is author of the book, Thank You for Arguing, What Aristotle, Lincoln, and Homer Simpson Can Teach Us About the Art of Persuasion. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network

called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest.

Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show

one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Why does it seem that there are some people who are much better at persuading than others, not just the words they say, but there's something about them. They're people we want to believe.

They're people that we want to follow. They're people that we almost want to buy into whatever they say. Yeah, this is something that Aristotle called the most powerful tool of persuasion of all. And remember, this is the guy who invented logic as we know it. Aristotle said logic really isn't as persuasive as something else. And he called it ethos, which is the character, what someone believes about you or your identity. So ethos is based on several traits. One is whether people think you know what you're doing. He called that practical wisdom. In other words, you know, people vote for successful businessmen and women because they think, well, you're

successful in business, you should be good in politics as well. The second factor is what he called disinterested goodwill or disinterest, which has to do with whether you're not beholden to any special interests. You want only what the audience wants. And the third and most important of all is what Aristotle called arete or virtue. And that's whether you share and hold up to the values of your audience. So in other words, if you know what you're doing, you have your audience's best interest at heart, and you share the same values. You're a good person. You're much more likely to be liked and trusted. And so someone who shares those values of ethos, a leader's ethos,

is much more likely to be trusted and believed. You know, the best brands have that kind of, you know, it's the very best brand. I know I can trust it. People are likely not to look at the list of ingredients or where the thing was manufactured, because they believe in that brand, or in Aristotelian terms, the ethos. It is interesting that oftentimes that the incidents where we want to persuade, where we want to get our way, are often fueled by anger, you know, the customer service kind of problem or whatever, the gate agent at the airport, where people just gravitate towards yelling and screaming, which is the opposite of what works, and yet it's so hard not to do it.

Oh, it is. I was just flying last week, and I had a gate agent. My flight was canceled. I go right up to the counter. The gate agent said, sorry, I'm on my break. My first instinct was just to start screaming, you know. Instead, I ran to another place where I knew there were people who could help me, you know, the information kind of desk. And I was burning hot. I was so angry. But I knew that that wouldn't achieve my goal. So if you look at, I don't agree with you or you're wrong, they say yes and and then gradually add to the conversation to the point where they steered it 180 degrees. these helpful people cheerfully. And I said, you know, you guys have been having a hard day. It looks like a lot of flights have been canceled. Tell me what you might be able to do for me. And you know what? Instead of putting me on the wait list, you know, for the next flight, this gate agent, actually, this helpful person actually gave me a ticket on the flight, bumping me ahead of other poor people

who had to be on the wait list. And I'm convinced it was because I was one of those few people who didn't show up furious at them. I was angry. I was just, you know, trying to be persuasive enough that I could hide that anger because it wasn't going to do any good. I love that line, tell me what you can do for me. Wow. Yeah, yeah, you know, that's one thing is, I'm appealing to the identity of someone who is, you know, in that job, and I'm basically honoring that person for doing a good job before she even does it. You know, in my book, I talk about how to talk a cop out of a speeding ticket. I've had readers tell me it works, by the way. A lot tell me it didn't work for them either. You know, this stuff isn't foolproof. But, you know, one of the things you do if you appeal to a person's,

you know, best sense of themselves, and if it's a police officer, could say you know look how do you think i should prevent going over the speed limit without looking at my speedometer all the time you know you're appealing to a person's expertise doesn't always work honestly but um it is a better way than simply saying you know i'm furious you know i'm angry at you. You shouldn't be working for this airline. You should be ashamed of yourself. Or I hate police. You know, none of that's going to do you any good. And this is the important thing. Before any confrontation or disagreement, you know, when you're either really angry or you're just frozen in place because you don't know what to say, the best thing to do is to say to yourself, what do I want to get out of this? Is it a better

relationship with my spouse? Or is it, you know, getting out of a speeding ticket? Whatever it is, the goal comes first. So what is it you say to the cop? Well, I mean, I imagine the scenario, it's actually not imagined it happened to me uh where a cop stopped you stopped me for going five miles an hour over the speed limit i'm doing like 30 in a 25 mile an hour zone and you know my first instinct was to be sarcastic about it. It's like, oh, lock me up, you know. Instead, I said, you know, I found that I tend to be tailgated when I'm doing the speed limit, when it's the slowest speed limit. What do you recommend I do?

You know, and the cop said, don't worry about other people. You should just pay attention to, you know, what you're doing. And the thing is, and I said, yeah, that's really good advice. I probably have been doing it wrong all the time. Thank you. And then the cop said, well, look, just don't do it again. And he didn't give me a ticket. Now, it could be he would have let me off anyway, because I really wasn't going that fast. But I'm convinced that I set up a conversation where I made him feel powerful and comfortable. Now, neurologists call this cognitive ease, which is the most persuadable state you can be in. You want the other person to feel comfortable, relaxed, and most important, in power. You want your audience to feel like they're the ones in power.

And in this case, the policeman really felt that way. I wasn't questioning his authority as actually appealing to it. Yeah, well, I've heard people say that when you're in a position of wanting to persuade, that it's better to not act like the expert, but to act dumb in some ways, and let them educate you. You know, the ancient Greeks kind of invented that. They called it aporia, which means not knowing. You know, one of the best things to do when you're in an argument with somebody about

something like politics, let's say, the best thing to do is not to express your opinion, but ask for the other person's opinion, and then just keep asking an opinion. And one thing research shows very clearly is that if you're talking to an extremist, the best thing you can do is to get them, ask about facts, ask them to define their terms, and ask for the sources of their information. And often what will happen, more often than not, you'll actually find an extreme person will start modifying their own stance, which in a way is a way to persuade them. So instead of saying, you're wrong,

you're absolutely crazy, you know, you could say, this is really interesting. Tell me more, you know, what do you mean by, tell me more about, is this a trend, what are the statistics, can you tell me what your sources are so I can go look for them. And often people start feeling a little bit uncomfortable about their own opinion, you know, and while at the same time sort of honoring you for being respectful of them. I found that to be the case too, that when you don't act like you know it all and that you're more like you're seeking information rather than trying to persuade, you can persuade better.

You know, it's funny that I just had a Twitter review of my book that said that, called it highbrow tripe. So I retweeted that very proudly, and I put in as a reply, highbrow, thanks. If you had one piece of advice to give people that if you want to be more persuasive, if you want to get your way, do this. I have to make it two things, or really the same thing. What has set your goal? And your goal should be about the future. If you could think about that, just think what's going to come out of this, then you're much more likely to get what

you want. Yeah, I think if people in any argument kept that in mind, that they have a goal here, and what is that goal, that the argument will go so much better. Jay Heinrichs has been my guest. He is author of the book, Thank You for Arguing, What Aristotle, Lincoln, and Homer Simpson Can Teach Us About the Art of Persuasion. There's a link to his book in the show notes for this episode of the podcast. Thanks, Jay. This is a real pleasure. Thanks, Mike. It was so much fun. Hey, everyone. Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am

I Wrong?, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong. And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial.

And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic,

check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. How many times have you heard the advice that to get ahead, you have to go out and network? There are networking groups you can join where you can meet people and they meet you and you connect and maybe form some sort of alliance and help each other out. And it all sounds great, but my experience and the experience of a lot of people is that traditional networking isn't very effective or efficient. You can meet a lot of people and collect a lot of business cards, but in terms of

actually meeting someone who can help you, well, that just doesn't seem to happen a lot. Larry Maul is the former chief learning officer for American Express and Motorola Cellular, and he is the author of a book about networking called Networking is Dead. Welcome, Larry. So what do you mean by networking is dead? Because I think a lot of people, when they hear that, would gasp and say, What? He's nuts. Exactly. We get that a lot. You can't tell me that networking is actually dead.

What we have found is that when we talk to people about networking and the whole idea of networking, what people tell us is they just hate it. And when you ask people about how they do it and why they do it, a lot of what you get is, you know, we go to events, we get a lot of business cards, we have a lot of launches, and we try and find people that can help us. And so what we fundamentally write about is a different way of doing that that's fairly purpose-driven and also very leveraged in terms of the time and energy you spend for the result that you get. Well, I've always had this notion, I've always had this belief,

that going to these events and handing out business cards and meeting guys that, you know, have a bakery and another guy that has a graphic design, that's just not going to get me anywhere. I've always thought that, but that's kind of against the conventional wisdom that you need to meet a lot of people because you never know. They might know, and they might know somebody else that knows somebody, and that that's kind of this whole philosophy of networking. That's right.

But what we find, like you probably have found, when we talk to people who actually do that and ask them kind of what results are they getting, are they moving their organization or their personal life forward, they typically say no. And so you ask further about that, and it really is the fact that you just spread your energy so far and so wide, and it's almost the idea that I might get lucky and at that next

function meet that one person who's going to help me change my life. And in fact, what we have found is exactly the opposite to that dynamic. Well, that's it right there. What you just said is, when you think about it, what you're really hoping to do is just get lucky and just hope that there's somebody at this event that can help you. And, you know, I mean, I hope to get lucky when I, you know, occasionally play the lotto, but, you know, it just never happens. It just doesn't happen, right? And so what we found in really studying this further was that if you look at really successful people

and you look at what they really do, first of all, they end up being fairly clear about their purpose in terms of what difference are they trying to make for their company, for themselves, even for their family. They get pretty clear on that, and they have a vision for what they're trying to do in the world. Then what they surround themselves by is a small group, and in the book we write about there are 10 people in your primary circle, that if you get yourself a specific group of 10 people, and I can tell you what that criteria is of what you should look for, that those 10 people, at least as a starting point,

will connect you to all the rest of the people that you need to know. Now, does that mean you shouldn't have a LinkedIn account and a Facebook account? No, it doesn't mean that at all. But what we're really finding is that having a thousand friends on Facebook or a whole bunch of LinkedIn connections doesn't really raise the probability that you're going to find that next person who's going to be transformative for you. And that's what we're really also talking about is a mutually beneficial relationship. I think you alluded to this.

If you don't know what it is you're hoping to get from somebody, how will you know if you got it? Exactly. And, you know, what I've found is that most people in life have their what confused with their why. So if you ask people to tell you, if you meet somebody at a function, you say, tell me about yourself, they'll tell you what they do for a living. You know, they'll tell you, and then some people actually will tell you how they do it. But if you ask people to tell you why they do it, what are they, what's the because, if you will, behind what they do,

they have a harder time talking to you about that. And so if you're not clear about that, it's really hard to know how to find the kinds of people that can help progress your purpose forward because what we find is the people who are clear about their purpose have a kind of a larger, I don't know if it's a larger, it's a more full sense of what they're trying to do, and they just find opportunity all around them because they're so clear. Where do you find those people that make up your core group then? So it's interesting. Part of it is potentially with people that you already know. But what we find is that we don't get to know people below really the surface of what they do

and maybe some images we have of them. And it's interesting to find that as I was doing this whole method myself, there were people, for example, in the companies that I've worked for, that once I started to get much clearer about what the difference I wanted to make and how others could help me and how I could help them, I started to have these conversations with people where I dug below the surface of what was going on and found people that I had no idea the story of their life. And, you know, everybody's got a story, right?

So you start to hear these stories of people's lives and the connection points, and pretty soon you start to attract possibilities and attract people who want to help you, and you can potentially help them. All right, so clearly the old way doesn't work, and I think that's a lot of people's experience, is that the old way of just trying to get lucky doesn't work. So if that doesn't work, what does work? How do you start doing it your way? That's a great question. So what we talk about is starting with taking a look at your specific network that you have right now and your 10, we call it your 10 primary circle. And the people in that circle should really have three things going on with them

that would make them qualified, if you will, to be in your circle. Number one is that they are somewhat driven by a sense of purpose. They want to make a difference somewhere. And hopefully it might even be the same one you want to make, but it doesn't have to be. It can be just that they are living on know, living on purpose, so to speak. The second is that they are what we call exchangers, and we make a very specific difference between givers, takers, and exchangers. And these, so these are folks that are really interested in

not keeping a scorecard about who's doing what for who, but they are getting, they're interested in getting to know you in a way that they'll be looking for possibilities for you even when you're not looking for possibilities, and that's how it's worked for me. And then the third thing is that they also are interested in creating a vibrant network, another group of 10. So if you can find one person to look at your network and look at the people that you're surrounding yourself and find one person who you feel is a real exchanger you are on your way to create a powerful powerful network these people these ten people that I have in my network how what's my relationship with them in it in how do

we communicate what I have found is to use all the means necessary that you have, both electronic, phone, you know, if they live close to you, face-to-face. But I'll be honest with you, in my network, a lot because I've moved around the country, in my primary 10 circle, I would say right now about four are local and six are not local. So we use a lot of email, phone conversation, and just connect with each other also through LinkedIn and other places where we are making each other aware of possibilities, connections that we should make together, introductions that we're making for each other.

And now these relationships are ones that I have definitely formed over several years. And I can also tell you that those same 10, they change over time, depending on what stage you're at with what you're trying to do. But it's really about getting people with those 10 people, at least to start with, that you are paying attention, so to speak, and being purposeful with those folks. And keeping those relationships up. Absolutely. And a lot of people will tell you, well, 10's even too much for me, and that's fine.

If you're going deep with several people where you just feel a lot of resonance, so to speak, and you're exchanging a lot of information, you're exchanging wisdom, you're exchanging connections and possibilities, then, you know, five may be really all you can keep up with. The point, again, is to pick the right people that will also have strong networks and kind of work this way so that you can leverage yourself and your time from a very practical standpoint. How do you know that your way works any better than the old way? Well, that's a very good question. I don't know that there's been any, you know, scientific studies on it, but we have found

that people, there's just a point of where your networks get too big, they start to lose energy, they start to lose a way of having any purposeful form that people can do anything with. And so we find that people that have been really successful are the ones who are managing this a little more strategically and making these stronger connections. They still have, you know, you still want to have loose ties, if you will, have people out there that you're paying attention with. I'm definitely not saying you cut yourself off from everybody else in the world, but 10 people, that would be not what we're talking about. But it's really important to leverage your time and energy with the people that you can help the most that can help you.

But if you've got 10 people in your, or however many people in your network, how long do you keep them before you realize, you know, this guy has never done anything for me, and I've really never done anything for him, so maybe it's time to retire him and go get somebody else. That's right. And that's why keeping, you know, we use 10. Obviously, this is a guidance for some people. They have close relationships with more than that, and some people it's much less. But if you keep track of these 10 kinds of folks that you can say, are we really exchanging?

Are we still relevant to each other? Now, you know, I've had people that have been in my primary circle and have dropped out, and then years later, because of a change in my life or change in their life, all of a sudden it just seems like, boy, we're just really back in touch a lot right now and helping each other out a lot with different kinds of things. And the wonderful thing about that, it's like that friend maybe you haven't seen in 10 years,

and all of a sudden it's like you've never left, right? So it's that same kind of feeling that you have with somebody like that. This is a question maybe more nuts and bolts, but if you identify somebody that you would like to have a closer relationship to, how do you do that? Very specifically, how do you do that without, you know, like you sound like you're asking for a date or something. I mean, how do you pull somebody in in a way that is more comfortable? Right. One of the most powerful ways is to have an introduction from

somebody else. And it is the tools that are available in terms of LinkedIn and Facebook and all these other tools make the finding who's out there and what they're doing and where you might have an area of common ground much more accessible than it's ever been in the past. So it's very possible that you may know somebody who knows somebody who knows that person. We find that it's the best way, if you don't know the person at all,

the best way is to have somebody else make an introduction for you, very practically speaking. If that isn't possible, then I have personally reached out to people. But the difference is that I start from the idea of what I'm trying to accomplish. It's not just about here's who I am and here's what I want. It's about what do I want to accomplish and what support. I've noticed that you're working in the same area or you're trying to accomplish something very similar. Is there some way that I can help you? Because we really believe in the idea of giving first and

just make an offer. A very simple offer is the best way to start to see if somebody's interested in exchanging with you. But is that not like when somebody dies and you go to the funeral and you say to the widow or the widower, if there's anything I can do, and of course there isn't. No one's going to call you and go, you know, there's something you could do. Could you pick up the groceries next week? Nobody ever comes back because that question is so vague. Is there anything I can do?

Right. Well, you know, that will come as you get to know them, you get to know what they need. In other words, it's more than just saying, hey, I'd like to get to know you. It's like doing a little bit of your own due diligence on the person. There's so much information available. And again, the best way is if you've got somebody that you know that can make an introduction for you that is absolutely the best way. But a lot of these relationships or relationships you want to have and attempt to have never happen. And then sometimes, you know, when they do, they never go anywhere. Nothing ever comes of it.

And that's fine, too. It really is. What I can tell you is that in my primary circle, all the good things that have happened to me in terms of being able to transfer my career, different companies, different parts of the country have happened because of this primary circle that I've established. That is, again, I like to say, they got my back, even when I'm not watching, which is very interesting. But that takes work. That's not just, you know, writing 10 people's name on a piece of paper and saying, that's my group, and then putting it in the drawer and leaving it there until you need something. That's right. And you know, that's such a great point. It's like, it really is,

you invest in a smaller group in a deeper way. The idea of going, are you going to spread yourself like peanut butter, a mile wide and an inch deep, or are you going to try and go deep with a smaller group of people? And that's why the people you pick are so important, because the recipe here is to go deeper with a group of people. Well, what you say really confirms a lot of people's experience, confirms my experience that just, you know, the scatter approach of just going out, meeting people, handing out business cards,

collecting business cards, doesn't work very much. And taking a more strategic approach in a smaller group, a smaller network, probably has a much bigger payoff. Thanks, Larry. Larry Maul's been my guest. He's the former chief learning officer for American Express, Motorola Cellular, and author of the book, Networking is Dead. You can link to his book on Amazon in the show notes for this episode of the podcast. You know when you sometimes have to reboot your Wi-Fi router or, you know, your Xbox or your PlayStation,

it usually tells you to unplug it and then wait for 10, 20, 30 seconds before you plug it back in. Well, why? Is that really necessary? Well, yes, according to tech experts. And it's because it's all about the capacitors. The capacitors are the small little batteries that live in your device and they fill up with energy when the power is on. So when you unplug or power down your router or computer or whatever, you need to wait at least 10 seconds for the capacitor to fully discharge.

Large capacitors can take longer, up to 30 capacitor to fully discharge. Large capacitors can take longer, up to 30 seconds to fully discharge. So your best bet is to follow the instructions provided with the equipment or by your IT support person. And that is something you should know. Please take a moment to leave a rating or review of this podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. Just takes a second. I'm Micah Brothers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana

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