Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: How to Deal With FOMO & Optimizing Your Immunity

Episode Date: August 20, 2022

The typewriter keyboard was invented in the 1800s. Today, the layout of the letters on a computer keyboard is essentially the same as it was back then. Maybe you have wondered why the order of the letters of the QWERTY keyboard hasn’t been changed in all that time. This episode begins with an explanation. https://www.cnet.com/news/a-brief-history-of-the-qwerty-keyboard/ You’ve heard of FOMO, right? It stands for “Fear of Missing Out” and it has become part of the language and experience for many people. FOMO causes a lot of worry and stress. Today there are so many choices – so many things we could do. Spending time worrying about what you didn’t choose to do doesn’t make much sense. Yet somehow the road not taken seems so attractive. Patrick McGinnis is the person who first coined the termed FOMO and he joins me to explore what it is and how best to deal with it. Patrick is author of the book Fear of Missing Out: Practical Decision-Making in a World of Overwhelming Choice (https://amzn.to/3kK0MQe)  You have an immune system. That’s what fights off germs, viruses and illness so you don’t get sick. However, you may not understand how it works or what causes it to work better or worse. Jenna Macciochi is an MD with over 20 years of experience as a scientist researching the impact of lifestyle on the immune system. She is also author of the book Immunity: The Science of Staying Well (https://amzn.to/3kVHnMv). Listen as she explains how you can keep your immune system working at its peak.   Is ketchup, ketchup? Goodness, no! There are actually different grades of ketchup and some brands are better than others. Listen as explain how ketchup is graded and who makes the ketchup for your favorite fast food restaurant. https://www.today.com/food/what-fancy-ketchup-it-actually-better-regular-ketchup-t144019 PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! We really like The Jordan Harbinger Show! Check out https://jordanharbinger.com/start OR search for it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen!  Go to https://Shopify.com/sysk for a FREE fourteen-day trial and get full access to Shopify’s entire suite of features! Truebill is the smartest way to manage your finances. The average person saves $720 per year with Truebill. Get started today at https://Truebill.com/SYSK! Redeem your rewards for cash in any amount, at any time, with Discover Card! Learn more at https://Discover.com/RedeemRewards Download Best Fiends for FREE from the App Store or Google play.. Plus, earn even more with $5 worth of in-game rewards when you reach level 5! So, if you think you’re okay to drive after a few drinks, think again. Play it safe and plan ahead to get a ride. Drive sober or get pulled over! Paid for by NHTSA Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, why are the letters on a computer keyboard laid out that way? Then the guy who coined the phrase fear of missing out explains why FOMO is such a problem. The thing that happens when we feel FOMO is we have this perception that there's something great out there happening that we're not being able to take part in. But the thing is

perception can be deception. You don't know. There is an asymmetry of information between what you think is happening and what's really happening. Then did you know there are actually three grades of ketchup? Which one do you eat? And understanding your immune system, what it is, how it works, and things you didn't know. For example...

Those symptoms that you feel when you get a cold, the runny nose, you know, feeling really lethargic, maybe a bit of a fever, that's actually your immune system causing all those symptoms. It's not the actual germ itself. All this today on Something You Should Know. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives.

So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today.

Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers.

I don't know about you, but I spend a good part of every single workday within a few inches of a keyboard, a computer keyboard, which is modeled after and mimics the old typewriter keyboard. But interestingly, the very first typewriter keyboards were alphabetical. The problem was that when two letters commonly used together in a word were next to each other, the mechanism of the typewriter would jam as one letter went up to strike the paper and the other one came down. Then in the mid-1800s, Christopher Latham Scholes invented what we now know as the QWERTY keyboard. The letters were spaced out

to help stop typewriters from jamming. That was the sole reason which, obviously today, is obsolete with computers. Other and supposedly better configurations of letters on a keyboard have been tried but none of them have ever caught on.

We still use Christopher Latham Scholl's keyboard that he invented in the 1800s. Interestingly, the letters in the word typewriter are all found in the top row of letters. This may have been for marketing purposes. Typewriter sales reps, who were not particularly good typists, could quickly peck out the letters from the top row for demonstration purposes. And that is something you should know. I suspect just about everyone has experienced that feeling or fear of missing out. That by not doing something or not going somewhere, you're missing out.

Or when you see someone else's photos on social media and there they are having tons of fun and you're not there, but you wish you were. And I think there's more and more of this feeling, that fear of missing out. And when you think about it, it's not very helpful or useful. It just makes you feel bad. And in fact, what you are missing out on is probably nowhere near as wonderful as you are imagining it is. Patrick McGinnis is actually the guy who first coined the phrase fear of missing out. And he's author of a book called Fear of Missing Out, Practical Decision Making in a World of Overwhelming Choice.

Hey, Patrick. Thanks for having me, Mike. So as I said, everybody has felt that fear of missing out. They know what it's like to experience it. But define it for me. What is it? Yeah, so fear of missing out, if you look at the definition, is an anxiety that's caused by a feeling that there's something better happening than what you're doing right now, combined with an aversion to missing out on a favorable collective experience. And it's a term that I actually invented over 15 years ago when I was a student at Harvard

Business School. I had been living in New York. I lived through 9-11. I realized every moment in life was precious. I moved up to Boston, and I never even dreamed of going to a place like Harvard Business School. It was full of opportunities. I wanted to do everything I could, take advantage of every opportunity. And so I found that I was doing everything. I interviewed for every job. I went to all the classes, obviously. I went on all the trips. I went to all the parties to the point where I was constantly stressed out and tired. And I realized that this abundance that I was living in actually was making me pretty unhappy. I started calling that a fear of missing out, shortened it to FOMO, and wrote an article in our school newspaper in 2004.

So is the fear of missing out, I assume it's always been around. Maybe it's more pronounced today. I mean, what's the status of this? Is it on the increase? So this is part of the human experience. If you go back to the earliest humans or ancestors roaming around East Africa, they were aware of what they needed but maybe didn't have in order to survive in the harsh environment of the time. And in fact, you go back to the expression, keeping up with the Joneses, that also has kind of the same sort of idea behind it. But the difference is that technology and specifically social media has been sort of

like an accelerant. Social media has made it that we can compare ourselves to people anywhere in the world at any time. We have so much information coming at us. We have so many opportunities that we perceive are available to us. And as a result, FOMO is no longer some sort of luxury good. It's something that many people feel. In fact, 56% of people report that they feel FOMO when they're away from their digital devices. And what's interesting to me is I understand the fear.

I have felt the fear of missing out. But usually what you find out is that you didn't really miss out on much, probably, and yet we don't seem to learn from that. The next time it happens, we're just as fearful that we're missing out. But most of the time, we're probably not missing out. Things always look better from a distance, it seems, than they really are. You're exactly right. And the thing that happens when we feel FOMO is we have this perception that there's something great out there happening that we're not being able to take part in. But the thing is, perception can be deception. You don't know.

There is an asymmetry of information between what you think is happening and what's really happening. And that's why a lot of times, you know, you talk to people who are older and they say, well, you know, I don't have a lot of FOMO about, say, going to that bar or going to that party because I've done that already. Right. I know what that is. And so our FOMO evolves over life. Maybe as you get older, your FOMO is about missing out on spending time with your grandkids. Right. Because that's the new thing that you want to do. But as we gain more information and life experience, the things that maybe in the past provoked our FOMO, we have the ability to make a decision based on facts and information about whether or not it actually is

worth spending time worrying about. Is it ever worth worrying about I mean if you are missing out you're missing out there really isn't much you can do so so what's the worry what is it were is it really worry I think it is because at the end of the day human beings we are we are we are wired to want to maximize our experiences and do the most that we can with our lives. And so when we feel FOMO, FOMO can be something as silly as, you know, oh, I wish I was at this party or I wish I went on this trip or something. But it can also be deeper. It can be about things like, I wish I had changed jobs.

I wish I had studied a certain thing. I wish I learned how to do this. And in fact, when we feel FOMO in those ways, I think it's actually a very beneficial emotion because what we're learning is we're learning about things that we wish we could do. And maybe we can in fact do. And we're getting that little tap on their shoulder to say, you know what? Why don't you try that? Why don't you figure out if that makes sense? Why don't you uncover whether or not

perception is deception or perception lives up to reality? And if it does, then go out and do that thing. It's just, I guess now we have so many more things we might want to do because we can see glimpses of them. And so how do you turn this off? How do you say, Oh, look, I, but I can only do one thing at a time. So I need to like, not stress about what I'm missing. So there are two big things you need to manage when you want to deal with your FOMO. So FOMO, as, as we've talked about is partially one of the things that causes it is this information overload, the fact that we're getting all these pings of information from social media or all the other media we consume. And so that's one thing you have to deal with. And the second thing you have

to deal with is this perception issue of thinking something looks really great. And so for the first one, which is all the information we're taking, you have to limit the amount of information that you're consuming. So for example, one great way to do that is to carefully monitor how much time you're spending online, take apps off your phone, quit social networks. You can't be on 15 social networks. It's damaging. Or when there are certain people who you're connected with that give you these feelings of FOMO that don't feel good, stop following them. I do that all the time. So that's one part of it.

The other part is thinking about this perception issue. Is it as good as it looks? That's where it comes down to doing some critical thinking. So all the time we have these stimuli about things that look really great. Say it's like, oh, my friend started a company and they quit their job and now they're an entrepreneur and I'm just working at this job and punching the clock and boy, I wish I was my own boss. Well, that could be interesting

and there's some FOMO there and maybe that's what you're meant to do, but why don't you actually start to think deeply about that? Is this something that, would I even like doing this? Am I wanting to take this kind of risk? Am I comfortable working all the time? And thinking about whether that's even available to you or something that you would enjoy. And as you do that, you can start to fill the fear of missing out with facts so that you're making decisions and feeling feelings based on the world around you and not something that you've cooked up in your head. Well, you know what's so insidious about this too is that, so you're saying get off of some of these social networks and turn your

phone off sometimes, but that in itself creates more, because if I turn my phone off or if I'm not on Instagram, what am I missing there? Yeah, you have to replace it with something else. And so what I talk a lot about in my work is when I got really deeply into this topic. So, you know, I had invented the word, but then when it became famous and was in the dictionary, I decided to really look into it. And clinical psychologists have spilled tons of ink in really prestigious journals talking about how to overcome FOMO because it causes mental health problems and productivity issues. And what I've learned, a big part of this is that when we feel FOMO, we are stuck in our heads. We are inventing a story that may or may not have any correspondence to reality because of these apps and these things we're looking at. And so what you need to do is get out of there and live in the real world, whether that means for some people that could be meditation,

it could be taking part in some physical activity, it could be calling somebody, but you want to get out of the screens, get out of your head and live in the real world. And when you do that, you find that when you've replaced that digital stimulus with real world activities, you don't miss the virtual world so much because you have don't miss the the virtual world so

much because you have a full life in the real world I think that people know on some sort of realistic level that what we see what other people post what is presented to us on screens and wherever else is not real it's it's always made to look good nobody's to post something that makes them and their experience look bad. It doesn't mean it's real, but as soon as we see it, we go, oh my God, look at that. That is fabulous. And it might be fabulous, but it's probably not as fabulous as it looks. I live in New York City, and the amount of times that I see, it's not always, I don't want to pick on kids,

but it's oftentimes teenagers or kind of 20-somethings that spend 30 minutes trying to get that perfect snap, right? And we see that with celebrities the same way. We see some celebrity whose life looks perfect, and then we find out that actually they're deeply depressed or that they're in, you know, sort of in an addiction situation, end up in rehab. It's incredible. In fact, one of the things that I really love about kind of the emblematic story of this phenomenon is there's a lake in Russia that is really beautiful. And it's become very popular with Instagram celebrities who like to go there, the influencer, and take pictures in front of it. And they're doing a yoga pose in front of

this beautiful blue lake. It turns out that lake is actually toxic. If you go in the water, you might end up in the hospital. And so it is true that even though we know that, if we were at that lake, we probably want to take that same picture. And so I think it's important to recognize, you know, put a name to this, recognize what's happening. And when you do that, you start to break down the cycle of just accepting it or being a part of it. And you actually try to get out of that mindset, because I think people are getting tired of all of this. And so it's important that we start kind of trying to reclaim reality. We're discussing the fear of missing out, FOMO,

and we are talking with the guy who coined the phrase. His name is Patrick McGinnis, and he is author of the book Fear of Missing Out, Practical Decision Making in a World of Overwhelming Choice. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior

due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back. And in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed, critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So Patrick, you mentioned a few minutes ago that sometimes people who, older people, maybe don't fall for this as much. And I would imagine it's just like after a certain amount of times of realizing that you're really not missing out on all that much and that you really ought to look at your own life, that you kind of settle into that. This starts to fade a little, doesn't it?

So it changes. And as I interviewed people and talked to a lot of people who feel these feelings and studied it, what I've seen is that we feel FOMO a lot when we're younger, right? Because feeling FOMO is driven by the perception that you live in a choice-rich environment. In other words, that there's lots of things you could potentially do. And so you start hearing about these things and you feel the FOMO. And so that really kicks in when you're a kid and, you know, your parents want to put you to bed and you want to be at the dinner table with them when their friends are, they're sort of having a dinner party or something. That is, you get more freedom and you hit your teens and your, and your college years and your twenties.

And you, you have all these choices and opportunities and you want to do everything. And so that's kind of the really big peak of FOMO. And then many people, they get, you know, they sort of get in a stable career situation. They get in a stable home situation. They have kids. They're busy. They don't have the time or the energy or the resources to worry about what's out there for them. And you see FOMO decline. But what's quite interesting is that, and I remember I was, my editor, in fact, this is her big comment to me, was my mother has more FOMO than anybody else I know, because her mom is retired. She has lots of time on her hands that she hadn't had 10 years ago. She's got, you know, she's got grandkids now. And so this is a new stimulus. And she also realizes, you know, she's not going to be around for the next 75 years. There is some point where, you know, she's, you know,

her life is going to end and therefore she has opportunities and limited time to take advantage of them. So she has a FOMO like she, you know, hadn't had for many years that came back with a vengeance towards, towards her, her, her later years. Do you find that understanding this, being aware of what's going on, listening to you talk, helps to turn down the volume on this? It does, although I will say, I mean, listen, I'm the guy who came up with the term.

So if anybody should know about it, it's me. And it's been interesting in this time of the global pandemic, of course, we've all been stuck in our houses. So there was nothing to miss out on. Right. And then now I live in New York City. We're kind of back open again. And I had a couple of weeks ago, I was invited to four things in one evening and I felt this

FOMO and how can I do all of this? And what I was able to do was to think deeply and carefully and kind of sort of in a thoughtful way about like, okay, what are, what do I really want out of tonight? What do I want out of this experience? What's important to me? How can I make sure that I'm not just running around with my head cut off? And so I think you, you will always have the feelings because this is something that is just in our DNA. But when you know that it exists and you have the tools to deal with it, you can then come up with a strategy to take back control and actually spend your time in a way that's truly going to make you happy rather than

just giving into your emotions out of fear that somehow you're going to miss something. You know, this reminds me, it's a kind of a, maybe a strange analogy, but this reminds me of like when you're in the supermarket and it's time to check out and you're always worried, you're going to pick the slowest line and inevitably you do. And then you worry about why couldn't I be in that other line rather than say, okay, the other lines moving faster, but that's okay. And that's kind of what this is, is making a choice, sticking with it, and not being upset that you didn't make another choice.

Definitely. And part of that, and I love that example because it also reminds me of sort of when you're on the highway in traffic and you're like, which lane should I be in? And I used to be the guy who'd switch lanes all the time. And then at some point I thought to myself, like, what is the point of all of this? And part of what helps us to overcome that is a sense of gratitude. If we are grateful for the fact that, you know, maybe I don't get I'm a second slider. But if we if we're grateful the time we have, we're grateful the fact that, you know, I listen, I'm at the supermarket and I'm able to buy all this great food and I'm going to do something great with it. Those three

seconds, if you can, if you can just use that time to be appreciative of what you have, you will not be focusing on what you don't have. So it makes a big difference. Yeah. Well, I remember hearing somebody say, and I, this has stuck with me for a long time, that it's not so much the decision that you make, like when you're faced with four parties to go to and you have to pick one and then you worry you pick the wrong one. It's not, it's not which, whether you make the right or wrong decision, it's making a decision and committing to it and not looking back and wondering, Just pick one, move on, and it just makes life easier. That's the missing out part. And one of the things that I recommend people do, for example, a lot of times when we feel FOMO, it's around things that don't matter.

So you could spend a valuable part of your day worrying about, you know, oh, well, I'm, you know, choosing between the donuts. Well, if I guess this one, I can't have that one. And so what I tend to do as a way of just moving beyond decisions and sticking with them is I'll actually just flip a coin or I like to look at my watch and if it's, you know, that second hand is on the left side, it's one thing or the other. But I basically outsource those small decisions so I don't waste time and energy on them because the more time you spend, the more you sort of fear missing out, the more you've got invested in that decision.

And then once you've made that decision, you just stick with it and move on to the next set of decisions. Because what people forget when they're going through these feelings of FOMO is that while you're spending all this time on this one decision, you're not allowing yourself to move on to the next set of decisions and the next set of decisions. And so living decisively for me is sort of like, it's like when you think of swimming, um, you know, are you swimming upstream or downstream? When we're swimming downstream, you just keep moving ahead and you have new opportunities in front of you. If you're swimming upstream, you're constantly battling. And that's exactly what it's like to live with FOMO and indecision.

Yeah. What you just said, I mean, think about it. If you're wasting time or, you know, spending time figuring out which donut to pick, what are you not doing because you're spending time doing that? Everything. And that's what happens is that people, a lot of times when we, we aren't decisive, part of that is that it's a, it's a, it's a method of procrastination. It's like, well, you know, I actually have to deal with some major things in my life. I've got to decide where I'm going to college. I have to decide about my job. But if I spend the next 30 minutes deciding about what I'm going to have for lunch, then I can put off this other thing. And so it's a, it's kind of a form of self-sabotage. And I think we, we, as I say, I just hope you're thinking

about everybody who's listening about how you do that, because it's kind of like with emails, like I'm happy to answer all the stupid emails, but I accumulate the ones that are really important. And so, you know, you get to the end of the day and you answered 55 emails, except for the three that really matter. You're doing the same thing when you waste all your time on small decisions and don't deal with the big ones. Not to beat the analogy drum too loud here, but it also reminds me of the person you go out to dinner with and it's their time to order. And oh, my God. Well, I kind of feel like chicken but um how is the how is the steak prepared oh pick something just pick something it isn't going to

matter but people like you say they they're so indecisive because if they get the chicken they're going to miss out on the steak and what if the steak's really good? But none of this means anything. Completely. It's those small things. And what you end up doing, you do two things, really. Number one is you alienate the people around you, because it's super annoying for everybody else to have to deal with your hemming and hawing. But number two is you're sending a message out to the world. And this is, you know, it's one thing if you're at dinner, but this, I'm really thinking about more and when it comes to things that are, you know, in the work setting or in the family setting is

when you are indecisive all the time, you undermine your credibility in front of other people and other people won't come to you when they need a decision made, right? They just assume that you're gonna be unable to commit to something. And that's a huge issue. Yeah, well, think about it.

I mean, if you think about the people that you see that are indecisive like that, they are annoying and you don't look at them as favorably versus the person that just says, I'll have the steak, medium rare, and move on. And just, you know, I like that guy. He knows what he wants, he gets what he wants he gets what he wants and good for him yeah and think about any leader that you respect right I mean everybody has people in their historical figures whether it's a Martin Luther King or Gandhi or or Franklin Delano Roosevelt or whatever the one thing you're not gonna say about

those people as well you know Rosa Parks she was incisive, right? Of course not because leaders are decisive people. And so learning how to be decisive and it starts with the small things, right? Learning, starting with those small things and mastering that and helping your kids to do that or your family members that builds up in, in the fact that you've built the muscles to make decisions when it really counts. Yeah. Because again, so often it doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter whether you get the

chicken or the steak or the fish. It just doesn't really matter. And worrying about what you don't do is pointless. It's totally pointless to worry about the road not taken. And here's how I test that, right? So, so we can, you and I can agree, Mike, that, okay, it doesn't matter, but some other person may not be able to get on board with us on that. And so when, when you're, when you're facing a decision like that, the tool that I like to use is to think about, will I even remember having made this decision in a week? Because tell me, I bet if I asked you what you had for lunch last Thursday, you'd have to really think about it, right? Or what did you wear on Saturday morning? You'd have to really think about it because you just did those things. You probably didn't agonize

over them. And so it's important for us to use that little tool to think about, well, is this going to matter in a week or not? And that allows you to then start to think about, okay, let's just move on. Let's get past this. You know, as I think about this, we're bombarded and always have been by messages that are based in fear of missing out. You know, if you don't see this latest movie, you'll miss out. If you don't buy this detergent, your clothes won't be clean and you'll miss out. And if you don't shop at this sale, you'll miss out. We're constantly worried about missing out, and we've been conditioned to worry about what's missing out.

And it's interesting to finally put a name to it and discuss what it really is. Patrick McGinnis has been my guest. He's author of the book, Fear of Missing Out, Practical Decision Making in a World of Overwhelming Choice. And there's a link to his book in the show notes. Thanks, Patrick. Ah, brilliant. Well, thank you so much. Really, really enjoy chatting with you. Hey, everyone. Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong?

Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we we tackle our listeners dilemmas with hilariously honest advice then we have but am i wrong which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice plus we share our hot takes on current events then tune in to see you next tuesday for our lister poll results from but am i wrong and finally wrap up your week with fisting friday where we catch up and talk all things pop culture listen Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown.

I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Today, more than probably ever before in your lifetime, you've heard a lot about the importance of your immune system. Yet I suspect most people don't really understand what it is or how it works. I often wonder sometimes why some people get sick more than other people,

even though they're exposed to the same thing. And the reason often given is that the people who don't get sick, they have a strong immune system. Meaning what? It all seems a bit vague. So let's see if we can make it more clear and understand what we can all do to make our immune system stronger. Joining me is Dr. Jenna Machocki. She is an MD who has over 20 years experience as a scientist researching the impact of lifestyle on the immune system in health and disease. She's author of a book called Immunity, The Science of Staying Well. Hi, doctor.

Thank you for having me, Michael. So when you describe a person's immune system, what is it you're describing? It's not a thing you can point to, you know, like you can't say, oh, your immune system is right there next to your kidneys. It's not that. So what is it? I mean, that's the beautiful thing about the immune system is that it's not in one place. It's everywhere in your body. And it involves a variety of different cells and molecules. But it also involves things like the barriers to our body.

So things like the skin, the delicate barrier of your lungs and your digestive tract. So all of these things working in concert kind of protect us. And I think everybody has a sense of that. We all know people who never seem to get sick. And then there are other people who seem to get every cold and bug that goes around. So what's going on there? Yeah, that's true. We see this play out with infection. So you might know people who get every cold going and others who just seem to be really resilient to those types of infections. And we're really immunologically diverse as a population. And this is kind of by design. So the immune system throughout our evolution has been designed to make us all unique. So the

genes of the immune system have a really unique way that they're passed down from a mother and father to the child to make sure that child is even more immunologically distinct from them. Now, then when it comes to infection protection, it means that we have this diversity. So we're not going to die out as a species if some pandemic comes along and starts, you know, really wiping out parts of our population, because there'll always be people who are really resilient to that particular type of germ. So two people could be exposed in the same way to the same infection, the same cold, the same virus, whatever. One person gets sick and the other

person doesn't. Yep, that's right. So this comes down to many factors, one of which is something called your compatibility genes. So these are genes that the immune system uses to encode for special proteins that help kind of switch on your immune defenses when you get that infection. So we all have a real unique set of these genes. And we see this play out with both with COVID right now, but also with infections generally. And we also see this play out with

vaccine responses. So we all have a slightly different response to vaccines because we're all immunologically unique. But then you layer on top of that all this myriad of other factors that shape our immune system from the moment we're born. So things like, you know, the stress of our day-to-day life and general life load, how physically active we are, how old we are, how well we sort of take care of our body, you know, all these other kind of social factors that are really going to influence our overall health. This is also going to make us all slightly different in how we respond to infection. So help me understand, I have some bug, some germ on my finger, my hand, I touch my eye or I touch my nose and it goes into my body

and tries to infect me. And if it doesn't infect me, it's because what happens. And if it does infect me, it's because of what happens. Yeah. So that bug that you've accidentally passed into your body, you've given a helping hand into your respiratory tract, for example, then there's going to be certain defences there to try and prevent it from getting into you. So the mucus and the bacteria, the good bacteria that live on and in your body, there's certain immune system molecules that are being produced in those areas that are preventing that germ from getting in. But if it manages to beat down those defences, then it can really get into our cells, start replicating and really starting to cause an infection. And then you get whole armies

of immune cells being mobilised from around the body and sent to that particular area where the infection is. And then the battle begins. So how well that infection gets into you and how well you can battle it off is all going to be dependent on this whole mixture of factors from genetics to lifestyle and diet and age. Also things like vaccinations and exposure to other infections. And there is a point of no return, right? So once you start getting sick, once I get a cold and I canny nose, you know, feeling really kind of lethargic, a bit withdrawn, maybe a bit of a fever, that's actually your immune system causing all those symptoms. So most of the time, it's not the actual germ itself. It might be causing some damage in whichever organ it's infected, the lungs, for example. But it's really the immune response trying to make that really hostile for the germ.

So it cannot replicate that actually leaves you with all these lousy symptoms. But also in the immune system's response to the infection, as it's fighting off those little germs, it's producing molecules called cytokines that start acting on your brain and they tell your brain to change your behavior. Because the only way that you're really going to get well in the quickest way possible is if you kind of triage all resources into infection fighting. So you're going to maybe want to just lounge on the sofa instead of going to work. You might have a change in appetite, change in energy levels. So we call these sickness behaviors.

So this is what we should be tuning into and listening to so that our immune system can really do this battle. And then all being well, you clear the infection and the immune system kind of tidies up all the damage and everything resolves and going back to the status quo. I want to ask you about vaccines because every year, for example, we have a flu vaccine and they develop it in advance and sometimes the vaccine isn't exactly for the flu strain that we got. Still, people say you should still get it because it can help even though it's not the exact vaccine for this exact flu. Is that true? In some respects, yes, because there might be some little molecular patterns on that flu shot that helps your immune system to recognize the strains of flu that are going around,

even if they're not an exact match. So it still is worthwhile having. And also your immunity to influenza decreases over time. So what we find is different infections induce different amounts of immunological memory, we call it. So this is kind of a recall response that your body says, oh, I've seen this infection before, so I've got cells already prepared to fight it. So it's much quicker to get rid of it. But for some infections like influenza, this memory response disappears a lot quicker. So it can be helpful to have that boost with the

vaccine every year. So we also hear that food plays in, you know, you have to eat well, you have to sleep a lot, you have to live a healthy lifestyle, it's good for your immune system. You've sort of implied that already several times, so I assume that's a true statement, but how does that work, and what foods, and how much sleep? I would say that there's all these different inputs from your diet, your lifestyle, your environment that are shaping your immune system. And so there's not really one that should have a hierarchy over another. They're all important. So the diet, the lifestyle, the environment, all of those things are important. When it comes to

diet, we'll keep it really simple. You need all the essential micronutrients. So these are vitamins and minerals. You need to not be deficient in any of those. And you also need all the macronutrients. So these are proteins, carbs, and fats in order for your immune system to function properly. So if you're deficient in a vitamin like vitamin C, you know, you end up with things like scurvy, but you're also less able to fight off infections. But saying that if you're not deficient in vitamin C, taking more than you need will not make you invincible. It will not make your immune system work better than it already does at its baseline. So you need to make sure you're not deficient, but we can't necessarily boost by taking more. And then when it comes to everything else, one of the most important things

for your immune system is actually to be in a calorie balance. So we know that consistently under eating and consistently overeating before you even get into what you're eating. This is so important for the overall functioning of your immune system. And after that, I'd say protein, because all these little antibodies and molecules that your immune cells are producing when they're carrying out their tasks, those are all made from protein. So we know we need to have all the little building blocks of protein in our diet in order to kind of furnish the immune system with all the things it needs to be able to do its job. So explain that calorie balance thing.

Yeah, so if you're in a calorie deficit, so you're under eating, you're just not eating enough calories, it doesn't matter if you're eating every superfood under the sun, but you're not fueling your body properly to meet the demands of your lifestyle and exercise and whatever, then this can actually be a bit of a stress on the body. And it can mean that your immune system is not really able to work as well. So you might end up picking up more infections, more colds, those kind of routine infections that we see throughout the year, but a higher frequency of them. Also, if you're overeating consistently, you're more likely to put on weight. So we know that being in the calorie excess is one way that you will quickly put on weight. And if you store that excess weight around

your middle, so we call this visceral fat, then this is quite an inflammatory tissue. So it's kind of a low-grade inflammation. And we know that when this is happening in the body, it also means that it's much harder for the immune system to fight off infection. And is it that these certain foods and getting a proper diet is good for your immune system? Or is it also true that there are particular foods that are especially bad for your immune system? Having high salt, also things like an incredibly high fat diet or a high sugar diet, particularly fructose, a particular type of sugar, because this can damage the gut barrier, which can cause inflammation in the body and also can switch

on other inflammatory pathways. And these foods are generally easy to overconsume. So when we talk about the classic junk foods, those are the ones that really hit the bliss point in the taste. So they're much easier to overconsume, which means we get into that consistent calorie excess and we're likely to put on weight. What about your immunity over your lifetime? Does it begin to deteriorate as you get older or what? Yes, I mean, that's definitely something that happens. And it's something that we see play out with coronavirus right now. We know that the elderly are at much higher risk.

So we've always known that the immune system declines with age. But actually, your immunological age is not the same as your chronological age. So if you have a really healthy lifestyle, and what's particularly important is if you maintain a good amount of muscle mass on your body so you're doing resistance exercise and keeping your muscle mass which we know declines quite dramatically from years of 30s and 40s that muscle being used every day and working out is sending signals to a particular gland in your throat called the thymus gland and this is where some of your key immune cells are produced the t-cells and the things that are coming from your muscles the signals are going to that thymus gland and keeping it rejuvenated so keeping it

young keeping those t-cells young and keeping the whole system functioning really well. So you could be a really active 70 year old, really healthy and have an immune system that's younger than a sedentary 30 something. What about mental health? Is there a connection between your immune system and your mental health? Yes, yeah, there is. And this is for me me one of the most interesting aspects of of the whole immune system we know that there's what we call the the brain immune axis so there's a cross talk between the brain and the immune system um i mentioned earlier that we sometimes when we feel sick we get these sickness behaviors so. So our immune system's directing our behaviour and making us act in a different way. And it just shows you the power of

these communication molecules that your immune system is producing and how they're able to shape various processes of our behaviour. And we also know that having any kind of low-grade inflammation so this is the bad inflammation that we don't want from a poor diet and a lifestyle is linked to things like um depression and mental ill health um and various other kind of diseases of the brain so we're really starting to see that this connection is there. It's like your physical health is, you know, affecting your mental health. And it's something that was previously quite separate when in the medical profession. I've heard, most people have heard this idea that in our society today, in many ways,

things are too clean, that kids need to go play in the dirt, that you have to put the immunity to work. And if you live in a very clean environment and there's nothing for the immune system to fight, it starts to do weird things. There's an element of truth in that. So the first thing to know is that your immune system is something that's made throughout your lifetime. So you're sort of born with this baseline genetic instruction manual for your immune system. And then it's built through all your exposures over your lifetime. So as a child, some of the inputs that your immune system need is connection with good germs. So there's this concept called the hygiene hypothesis, which suggests that we're too clean. And by getting exposure to germs, it helps build our

immunity and stops us being susceptible to things like allergies and autoimmune diseases where the immune system's gone wrong later on in life. And that hygiene hypothesis has kind of evolved into something called the old friends hypothesis, which really means that it's not about hygiene. You still need to wash your hands before you eat, after you've been to the toilet, you still need to clean surfaces where you've maybe been, you know, chopping raw meat or something. But what we're missing is the connection to the good germs in our environment so if you consider that every surface that you're surrounded by the air that you're breathing they all have their own microbiota so they're all full of bacteria and 99% of them are harmless and they're

not going to hurt us and we know that rural environments have a much more diverse microbiota, whereas urban environments, it's much less diverse. And we know that diversity is really important. So exposing our immune system to a diversity of these good germs by letting kids dig in the dirt, play in green spaces, getting out of the city as often as possible. That's really, really important in the early years of life to build up these bugs that live on us and in us, these good bacteria that are kind of like instructors that educate our immune system as we go through life. I remember hearing there was a study that basically said it was as simple as people who don't have dishwashers have a stronger immune system simply because the dishes, because they're not sterilized in the dishwasher, they're just washed by hand. More germs remain. People are exposed to more germs and that helps to build their immune system. There's a few studies like this, like dishwashers, looking at children who are nail biters it's kind of like

you know when we're born we're just predisposed to um show our bodies the good germs in our environment so we're you know kids are always putting things in their mouth um you know there's a certain amount of cleanliness we need but yeah things like hand washing dishes there's more good germs left behind and this seems to have a beneficial effect on our developing immune systems. Do we see people's immune systems, if you look at the world, the population as a whole, are they getting better? Are they getting worse? Are they about the same? It's too individual to even care. What's your sense? I think in Western populations, we're seeing a general deregulation of the immune system. So it seems to be a shift. And some of the key inputs that the immune system needs during its development from birth are now missing because of

how our lifestyles are organized. So we know that, you know, starting from birth, the root of the birth really matters. So in a C-section, you're not going to be exposed to the same diversity of bacteria that babies born vaginally are. And then we know that there's certain things in breast milk that help cultivate those bacteria in the gut, which are your main immunity educators. And in Western culture, I think the rates of breastfeeding are not as high. Then we have the general living in urban areas, living in very clean environments,

not getting exposure to green space, all of these kind of things. That seems to lead the immune system down a path where it doesn't have the key regulatory inputs to keep it in check. And then we're seeing skyrocketing rates of things like asthma and allergies and autoimmune diseases. So knowing what you know, if I want to keep my immune system working and be strong and all that? What are the things I should be doing? Everyone always asks me about nutrition. Yeah, nutrition is important for sure. But don't forget about all the other inputs that your immune system needs.

You know, taking care of your gut, getting consistently good sleep, being just a regular mover throughout your day. So avoiding sedentary time, maintaining that muscle mass and, you know, checking in on your stress, because we know the stress hormone cortisol, you know, can really damage your immune response. So stress is something really pervasive in the modern world. And I think we don't consider how damaging it can really be for our health. Well, I think a lot of what you said is news to a lot of people. It's news to me anyway, and I appreciate you sharing it with us.

Dr. Jenna Machocki has been my guest. She's an MD with over 20 years experience as a scientist researching the impact of lifestyle on the immune system. She's author of the book, Immunity, the Science of Staying Well. There's a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. Thank you, doctor. Thanks for coming on. No problem. Thank you so much. There aren't too many people who don't like ketchup.

You dip your fries in it, you put it on your hamburger, it makes things taste better. But you may not realize that there are three grades of ketchup, according to the Department of Agriculture. The highest grade is grade A, which is sometimes called fancy. Then there's grade B, which is extra standard, and C, which is standard. Grades are assigned to different types of ketchup based on four different factors, color, consistency, presence of defect, and flavor. For a ketchup to be grade A or fancy, it must possess a good color, consistency, flavor, and finish, and be practically free of defects. Most importantly, it must contain at least 33% total solids. In other words, grade A ketchup is less likely to slide off your burger than grade B or C,

which can legally contain more additives and more liquid. Heinz ketchup, for example, meets the USDA standard for Grade A or Fancy Ketchup, and they are the ketchup supplier for major chains like Burger King, Sonic, Applebee's, Arby's, and Chick-fil-A. None of those stores brand their ketchup as Fancy or Grade A, but they are. McDonald's makes their own ketchup. It also meets the standard for Fancy, and there is no significant nutritional difference between the different grades of ketchup.

And that is something you should know. Drop me a line anytime. I love getting emails and I respond to pretty much all of them. You can reach me at mike at somethingyoushouldknow.net. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections

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The note from Kripke was, he's great, we love him, but we're looking for like a really intelligent Duchovny type. With 15 seasons to explore, it's going to be the road trip of several lifetimes, so please join us and subscribe to Supernatural then and now.