Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: Improving Your Digital Body Language & How Food Affected Human Evolution

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Starting point is 00:00:27 Download June's Journey now on Android or iOS. Today on Something You Should Know, what a lot of pediatricians don't know but probably should. Then, best practices for digital communication. Email, text, chat, even how to use emojis. There are differences in perceptions in how to use emojis there are differences in perceptions and the use of emojis between women and men in fact one study showed that if a younger woman in the workplace used multiple emojis at

Starting point is 00:00:52 work the woman would be more likely to be seen as lacking confidence or incompetent the man would be more likely to be seen as casual or friendly plus when was the last time you bought a new pillow? And we humans have evolved to be very smart. And you can thank cooking, at least in part, for that. Cooking probably occurred, I don't know exactly, but, you know, one or two million years ago is probably when it started. And it radically changed the human diet to the extent that it probably facilitated the growth of a large brain. And we know what happened after that. All this today on Something You Should Know.

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Starting point is 00:02:09 Hey, welcome to Something You Should Know. It appears, by all accounts, that we are getting a lot of new listeners lately. And if you're one of them, welcome. I am thrilled to have you here and listening. And this episode starts with a discussion about your child's pediatrician. Parents typically turn to their pediatrician for expert advice and information about their child's health and development. However, a study found that thousands of pediatricians subscribe to various popular parenting myths that have proven to be untrue. For example, 15% of pediatricians surveyed said children should not swim until 30 minutes

Starting point is 00:02:54 after eating. 17% said vitamin C helps to ward off colds. 16% believe that eating carrots will improve a child's vision. 8% said eating chocolate can cause acne. 11% of pediatricians said listening to Mozart will make a baby smarter. 7% said reading in the dark will cause visual problems. 7% said sitting too close to the TV will damage your eyes. My grandmother used to say that. 9% said sleeping with a nightlight causes nearsightedness. And all of these things that I have just recited have all been proven to be untrue.

Starting point is 00:03:38 So you may want to double-check your pediatrician's advice. And that is something you should know. We all communicate with others electronically today more than ever before. And who hasn't either misinterpreted someone else's electronic communication or had something we wrote get misinterpreted by someone else. All it takes is one wrong word or waiting a little too long to respond or who knows what else that can cause a miscommunication and hurt feelings. And we've all been there. So meet Erica Dewan.

Starting point is 00:04:19 She is a speaker and trainer and author of a book cleverly titled Digital Body Language that addresses these common missteps in digital communication and how we can prevent them. Hi, Erica. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. So let's start with an explanation, a definition of what you mean by digital body language. Digital body language are the cues and signals we send in our digital communication that make up the subtext of our messages. Everything from our punctuation to our response times to our virtual video backgrounds to how we greet and end an email

Starting point is 00:04:59 are critical factors that help others read our cues and help us read and connect with others. Yeah, and who hasn't, as I said in the beginning, who hasn't had that happen to them, where somebody takes a long time to respond and we read into what that must mean, or they use a phrase or a sentence that we think, hmm, I wonder what they meant by that. There's all this kind of misinterpretation going on with all this digital communication. In my research, I actually found that one of the highest causes of what I call digital anxiety is slow or no responses.

Starting point is 00:05:38 We've all kind of felt that sense of nervousness when we haven't heard back from someone. Maybe we start to wonder what's going on. Then we might read into the last conversation for clues. And then we might finally assume someone forgot or missed a message and follow up. And when it comes to good digital body language, I always like to say, if you are the sender of a message, actually having a response time request, even in your subject line, 2H means I need this in two hours or 4D means I need this in two days, can be helpful in setting that expectation. And if you're waiting for a response, I always like to say assume good intent.

Starting point is 00:06:15 Don't get emotionally hijacked if you haven't heard back and you see someone share something on social media when they haven't followed up on your email. And also know when to switch the channel. I like to say sometimes a phone call is worth a thousand emails. Boy, do I agree with that. I, I think sometimes we could save so much time and confusion and trouble by just picking up the phone. The phone I feel is a lost art, especially as in many ways we moved from email to constant conference calls pre-pandemic and now video calls is much more of the norm than the exception. often happens is we default to continually using the channel in digital body language that someone else uses versus asking ourselves, is this the right medium to send the response? Should this conversation maybe happen by phone or by video instead? Or are we having also phone calls or video meetings when it's really a yes or no and it could be by email. And I think on one end, it's a big cause of the video call fatigue.

Starting point is 00:07:27 We're having too many video meetings all the time when we may want to have shorter meetings or some more phone meetings instead of video. And then on the flip side, that 10-chain email reply all chain, knowing or having some rules, maybe every three emails when there's a back and forth, knowing when to pick up the phone, I think could save us a lot of confusion and get more clarity. Well, let's talk about that reply all thing, because I don't like replying all, but other

Starting point is 00:07:57 people love to do it. And I always get the sense that they're doing it to cover their butt because so that they know that everybody knows that they responded or that you know they they gave the answer they were supposed to but i get a lot of those reply alls so is so in fact sometimes like my son's soccer coach will send out an email and then the parents will reply all yes i'll be'll be there. Well, I don't need to know that you're going to be there. But that reply all seems to be overused, in my opinion. I would completely agree. There was actually a New Yorker cartoon where a man is being burned in the office,

Starting point is 00:08:37 and the bottom of it says, he replied all, dot, dot, dot. And I think that's very much what we feel in today's world with high levels of email anxiety. My general recommendation when it comes to the reply all is for whether it's a soccer team, whether it's a neighborhood group, whether it's a workplace, set some rules and explicit digital body language norms around this. So if you're on the two line, we expect you should read the message and respond to us. If you're on the CC line, we don't expect you to respond. You don't need to respond.

Starting point is 00:09:14 In some ways, please don't respond. We just want you to see the message. And when it comes to reply all, one thing that one of my clients did is they started an acronym called NNTR, which meant no need to respond. And that simple acronym in the email saved so many reply all emails. Sometimes we feel like we should because others did it. I've tried that NNTR thing. And you know what it did? It triggered an email for me to please explain what NNTR means. Yeah. So I think another general rule of thumb is to always ensure

Starting point is 00:09:47 that people understand those acronyms or just write out no need to respond. I'm also a big fan of using BCC to avoid that reply all endlessness and at the same time knowing when not to use it if you want to make sure others know who's on the message. You use the phrase digital body language norms, which I like that phrase. So let's set some of them. What are some of the digital body language norms? I like to say that what was implicit in traditional body language norms now has to become explicit in digital body language norms. For example, let's talk about video calls first. One norm is to simply always send an agenda before a meeting. It not only allows introverts to have time to think and process and prepare for the meeting, but it allows everyone to first feel valued visibly for their time. Secondly, in that meeting, another norm is to make sure to set some clarity around what

Starting point is 00:10:48 success looks like at the end of the meeting and design for interactivity and engagement. That could mean avoiding turn-taking and allowing attendees to share their thoughts in the chat first and then calling on people that have diverse or different perspectives or having a meeting note-taker that is summarizing action steps and sending them out within 30 minutes of that meeting. I like to say that quick recap email is like the new virtual handshake. These simple cues and signals are not only able to help improve productivity, but they allow us to avoid groupthink cultures, or what I like to call Zoomthink in today's world. In fact, studies have showed that a simple agenda beforehand with quick questions will allow

Starting point is 00:11:30 introverts to have more time to process ideas and to be more engaged in the meeting. The power of the chat tool will allow everyone to feel more heard. Research shows we think better in writing first and then speaking. And then last but not least, that quick summary is a great way to create a sustained alignment, almost like the same way we shook a hand at the end of a meeting or looked each other in the eye and knew that everything was going to get done. That's just a quick example when it comes to video meetings. So let's talk about email, digital body language norms for email. My first general rule of thumb when it comes to email is to always think carefully about the two line, the C line, the BCC line. If you're on the two line, we expect you to respond. If you're on the CC line, no need to respond unless you have a question.

Starting point is 00:12:19 The subject line I like to say is about getting to the point quickly. Don't have a no subject line or a brief, we need to talk, confusing subject line, which for some can feel alarming and for others can feel like a simple meeting request. Be specific. Have response time expectations in that subject line. Remember that emails are visual and we're even reading our inbox by subject lines, deciding what to open and what not to. And last but not least, remember that the body of your email is read similar to the way we read websites now. It's visual. Use bold and underlined headings to get your point across. Always start the message with a clear what's in it for them or what they need to do. And last but not least, take this

Starting point is 00:13:03 minute to think before you type and always check and proofread your messages before you hit send. I've talked about this before that my experience with emails is if you send somebody an email and you have three questions, you'll get an answer to the first one. You might get an answer to the second one, but you never get an answer to the third one. Research shows that we may unintentionally read into one line of someone's email and get lost there or skip so much of it and not answer what they actually needed. It is very difficult today. One study from the Journal of Social Psychology showed that up to 50% of the time we misinterpret tone in email messages. And I think as we all know, roughly 75% of communication

Starting point is 00:13:53 is our nonverbal body language, pacing, pauses, gestures, and tone. The reality is, as body language hasn't disappeared in the world of email, it's just transformed. And what the goal is, is understanding that digital body language will allow us to get to that stronger sense of clarity. I recommend, similar to what you just shared, try to have one or two key questions. Try not to belabor someone with 15 different questions in that email. Know when to switch to a 10-minute phone call if you need to have a more complex discussion. But if you have to send a lot of questions, which is very common, especially in group collaborations today, make sure to use simple, bold, underlined headings, even bullet points. It can allow everyone to understand exactly what you need and help the

Starting point is 00:14:41 recipient respond quickly back to you. We're talking about electronic communication and some of the problems that arise in those communications and how to prevent them. And my guest is Erica Dewan. She is a speaker and trainer and author of a book called Digital Body Language. Mama, look at me. I'm going really fast. I just got my license. Can I borrow the car, please, Mom? Kids go from 0 to 18 in no time. You'll be relieved they have 24-7 roadside assistance with Intact Insurance. Mom, can we go to Nana's house tomorrow? I want to go to Jack's place today. I'll just take the car. Don't wait up, okay? Kids go from 0 to 18 in no time, don't they? At Intact Insurance, we insure your car so you can enjoy the ride. Visit Intact.ca or talk to your broker. Conditions apply. This is an ad for BetterHelp.

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Starting point is 00:15:59 So Erica, we've talked about on this podcast before, I think we've talked about it or I read it or something, that one way to help in electronic communication to make sure that people understand what you mean is to use emojis, that they clarify the meaning behind the words you're using. What do you think? I like to say that emojis are almost like our new version of facial expressions when we can't read each other's faces. My general rule of thumb is to think before you emoji. I use them in high trust situations to build that connection to showcase what you mean. At the same time, if there is a high power or trust gap with those you're communicating with, if you've never met them before. I always recommend to be thoughtful and know your audience, maybe err on the side of

Starting point is 00:16:49 formality first. And then as you get to know someone, it can be very beneficial to use these tools. I'll also say they're much more common in text and IM in chat tools versus simply emails, but especially in the last year, they've become much more commonplace. There is something that I think you'll find unique about emojis. One study showed that there are differences in perceptions and the use of emojis between women and men. In fact, one study showed that if a younger woman in the workplace used multiple emojis at work compared to a man at any level in that same organization, the woman would be more likely to be seen as lacking confidence or incompetent. The man would be more likely to be seen as casual or friendly. And I'll say I'm a big believer in breaking those

Starting point is 00:17:37 biases. But at the same time, I do think it's important for us to understand that there is not just one digital body language. Similar to regional accents or dialects, we have a whole set of digital body language biases, even in emojis. Well, that's really interesting that people are perceived differently depending on their gender if they use an emoji. but people are perceived differently all the time everywhere. So, I mean, everybody's different. Everybody perceives other people differently. But that's really, that's really interesting and would give you pause to think, well, do I really want a emoji here? Absolutely. In fact, you know, and it spans so much more than just gender. One study looked at the science of the

Starting point is 00:18:27 period at the end of a text. And it showed that if you put a period, say you write okay period at the end of a text, there are about 50% of people that would signal that that means someone might be angry or frustrated. And the other 50 will think that you're just using good punctuation and grammar. And it definitely skews younger. In fact, for many digital natives who grew up in the world of AOL instant messenger in the 1980s generation, having a period at the end of a chat tool, like a text message, can signal anger or frustration. Whereas for those that may be baby boomers or Gen Xers who really grew into a lot of these new punctuation tools in the workplace, it could just simply mean I'm ending a sentence. So here we are, not only with a simple dot meaning different things to different people,

Starting point is 00:19:17 but understanding that we need to become aware that digital body language is a skill and it can allow us to create more connection or it can create confusion. And so taking that time to have that explicit discussion, to not read into things too much and knowing when to switch the channel can be what's most beneficial in our changed world. Well, as you just said, I mean, so the period at the end of okay means different things to different people. And if you don't know exactly who's getting it, what their age is, or what their gender is, you don't know what message you are sending. You don't know if you're sending the I'm angry message, or you're just a good punctuation person, or you could be both. You could be angry and very good at punctuation. And let's even think about the all caps message, especially in chat tools. So all caps for some

Starting point is 00:20:12 can mean shouting. If you write okay in all caps for others, an okay in all caps could mean excitement. For others, an okay in all caps could mean urgency. And if you're my 75-year-old father, when he puts in all caps in a text message, I know it's because he doesn't know how to uncaps his text messages. So again, I think a lot of it depends on two things. What is the power dynamic with that other person? And what is the trust level? And again, if we are able to understand some of those cues, not get emotionally hijacked by the challenges in digital communication, but instead choose to assume good intent and get to clarity, we can achieve great results even from afar. So is there a good default method then if

Starting point is 00:20:57 you don't know who's reading it or how they're going to interpret it, if you just use plain old proper English punctuation and spelling and all that? Is that a safe route? I recommend each person to answer two questions that will not only allow you to make sure you're sending the right signals to others and you're also not reading into other signals too much that can create paranoia or misunderstanding. I think the first question is to ask yourself, who has more or less power here? And if you have less power, maybe, and if you haven't met them before, maybe you want to err on the side of formality first, and then as you get to know them, understand and engage with your natural digital body language style.

Starting point is 00:21:45 The second is how much do we trust each other? Are we longtime friends where if I write an okay, dot, dot, dot, you won't read into it any other way than I'm just thinking? You know, at the other end, if there's low trust, maybe you're new entering a group, you may want to take that time to, again, be maniacally clear so that others aren't struggling trying to read your mind. I'll give you one example that puts this to life. One of my clients sent a message to his boss that said, do you want to speak Wednesday or Thursday? And his boss's response was yes. Now I share that story because he shared with me how anxiety producing it was in a very busy time to have to go back to his leader multiple times to actually get clarity.

Starting point is 00:22:28 No Wednesday or Thursday. And and so at the end of the day, I think if we can all realize that reading those messages carefully is the new listening and writing clearly is the new empathy. We will not only stand out, you know, get more noticed in our professional lives, but we will avoid a lot of blunders even in our personal lives. At what point in an email exchange do you think enough is enough, where people will always come back and respond to whatever you say and have some other thing? Or at what point do you get to say, I'm not responding anymore, we're done? This is one of the most common questions.

Starting point is 00:23:08 If someone keeps belaboring me with more emails or messages that are not as thoughtful and didn't answer my question, what do I do? I think at the end of the day, this also goes back to the power trust dynamics in the relationship. If this is someone that you are working with, a longtime colleague, where you really need to get clarity from them and follow up, switching the channel, as I said earlier, picking up the phone is not only worth a thousand emails, it could also be worth a thousand texts or WhatsApp messages or IMs. And so knowing when to switch the channel can be effective here. The second thing is knowing when also just to not continue responding. There is a never-ending cycle hamster wheel right now,

Starting point is 00:23:54 as we're all feeling with email communication. And we may say yes to something once, but then someone may come back with three more requests. And I like to say our inbox is not our to-do list. We have to take that time to set priorities, to set our own boundaries as well. And that in itself is a behavior of good digital body language. What do you think are the best ways to start and end a communication? I guess mostly email because with text, you just type the words. But in an email, you have to say, hi, Bob, or best regards at the end. What's the best way to do that? I'm a big fan of number one, being who you are, not ruminating too much about greetings and signatures. But just secondly, taking that extra second to ask yourself,

Starting point is 00:24:45 what is the trust level? What is the power dynamic? And adapting accordingly. And what do you see as someone who has really studied this whole area of electronic communication? What is it you see that's a real pitfall that people need to watch out for? The one that I think is so critical in our fast-paced world today is what I call hold your horses, which means less haste equals more speed. The pressure to communicate quickly can often cause us to create mishaps, to oftentimes reward the fastest person who responds or the quickest person that jumps in on a call instead of the most thoughtful ideas. So simple steps such as the quick agendas before, the time to use chat tools, the simple time and awareness that sometimes people need that minute or two to think. It can feel awkward to have silence on a call, but it is actually profound to prioritize thoughtfulness.

Starting point is 00:25:42 And it will allow all of us to ensure that our collective voices are heard. So general closing thought is hold your horses, slow down, and you will not only write better emails and have better meetings, but you will change the way that everyone can find their voice in our modern world. Well, I'm sure everybody listening has had questions, frustrations, problems with electronic communication, and it's good to get some clarity on some of these things as to what's the better way to do it, the right way to do it. Erica Dewan has been my guest. She's a speaker and trainer and author of a book called Digital Body Language, and you'll find a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks, Erica. Thanks for being here. Thank you so much again. Bumble knows it's hard to start conversations.

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Starting point is 00:27:31 When you think about it, you can eat just about anything you want, whenever you want. And while we take that for granted to some extent, it's pretty amazing when you think about it, because it's not something humans have been able to do until very recently in our history. And another interesting thing is that much of the food we eat, pretty much all of the food we eat, has been modified from the days of hunter-gatherers. Farming has really changed our food. So how did this happen? Why did it happen? Why is it important to understand? And what does it mean to you? Well, here to explain and discuss this is Jonathan Silvertown.

Starting point is 00:28:14 He's professor of evolutionary ecology at the University of Edinburgh and author of the book Dinner with Darwin, Food, Drink and Evolution. Hey, Jonathan. Hi, Jonathan. Hello, Mike. Nice to be with you. So how has food changed over time since the days of hunter-gatherers who pretty much ate the food they could find growing in the wild compared to today where much of what we eat is grown specifically by someone else for us to eat?

Starting point is 00:28:43 Pretty much everything we eat that's farmed has been cultivated and bred and changed by artificial selection long before anybody knew what genetics was. So wheat and pigs and sheep and cattle were all domesticated from wild species starting around 11,000 years ago. And it just went on from there. And so the things that we see in fields or on the supermarket shelf or indeed in our plates are the products of nature transformed by human ingenuity. They also, of course, have moved all over the world. So, you know, I can go into my supermarket and buy corn, which originates from Mexico, chilies from the same place, potatoes from Peru. You in North America can go and buy wheat and wheat bread that actually originates from Anatolia and Turkey.

Starting point is 00:29:48 So it's a complex, fascinating story. So something I've always wondered is we eat to survive, but more today people don't think of that so much as that we eat to enjoy it. We eat to we eat what we like. But when did that change or did it ever change or have people always been looking for food they enjoy or what seems like a long time people just ate to survive? The key thing is that we are now omnivores. We may choose not to eat meat, but we certainly can get by eating meat and quite a lot of it some people and that is odd for what we are we're great apes and all our great ape cousins so chimpanzees orangutans

Starting point is 00:30:36 gorillas are either exclusively vegetarian in fact we'd call them vegan or they're mainly vegetarian so chimps eat a little bit of meat and then get hold of it. But they can get by just fine, largely on wild fruit. So something happened in the course of our evolution, you know, since six or seven million years ago. So that's not that long ago in an evolutionary perspective to change our diet really radically. That's one part of it uh it's a big subject so explain how the diet our diet the human diet has changed well the first thing to say is that the diets of people across the world today vary hugely especially if you just wind back i

Starting point is 00:31:19 don't know 50 years to sort of pre-supermarkets, well, it has to be 70 years before supermarkets and before globalized food distribution systems. And, you know, if you look, people have tried to add up all the plant species in the human diet, the human diet as a species, and it's somewhere between 5,000 and 7,000 different plant species. Now, most of our diet is just grains. So, you know, it would be rice and corn and wheat and oats mainly. Nobody's done the same exercise as far as I know for the animals we eat. But, you know, you only need to go and look in the supermarket at all the things available on the fish counter, who thought, hey, let's eat a fish and see how that goes? You know, somebody. Yeah. Somebody had to be a pretty adventurous eater to do that. I'm not sure. I mean, I think, you know, we're very picky now.

Starting point is 00:32:18 Were we always that picky? I kind of doubt it. I think if you were hungry, you'd try, you know, whatever looked good, and you'd quickly spit it out if it didn't. Well, you said, you know, we eat what looks good. But in different parts of the world, different things look good. I guess it's because of what's available. For sure. So what's fascinating is that, you know, back in school, they tell you that corn was domesticated in Mexico and wheat in Southwest Asia. And that's probably as far as the story goes. But recent research shows there have been at least 25 different places in the world where people domesticated the plants that were on their doorstep or in their yard just outside. You know, sugarcane comes from New Guinea, for example. Not a place

Starting point is 00:33:08 where you would normally expect farming, but that's where it was domesticated. And, you know, sunflowers, Eastern North America. For a while, people thought there were no crops domesticated in Eastern North America, and it all came from, you know, further south. Now it turns out there are actually quite a lot of things domest domesticated by the uh native americans in in that area before european contact so yeah 25 at least different places in the world where independently agriculture was invented but in different places you know in some of the things people eat in some countries I would think would just be disgusting. And and I'm sure they might think the same about my diet. That's true. But it's so easily changed, isn't it? I mean, if I showed you a picture of a snail raw, you know, you might think it's disgusting.

Starting point is 00:33:58 And yet actually it's very similar to mussels. It's essentially identical to anatomically in other ways to mussels, which, you know, you might eat in a paella, you know, with gusto and a lot of garlic. So, you know, we do have a sort of sense of disgust for things, but it's largely learned. At what point in history did people say, yeah, this tastes good, but it would taste better if we cooked it? When did, you know, when did cooking start? Cooking, probably, it was certainly a physiologically very important development. And it probably occurred, we don't know exactly, but, you know,

Starting point is 00:34:36 one or two million years ago is probably when it started. And it radically changed the human diet to the extent that it probably facilitated the growth of a large brain. And we know what happened after that. So, yeah, cooking goes back a long, long way. And then you could get recipes developing. And no doubt people had, you know, before they wrote things down, they had ways of doing things. So there's some wonderful remains of what Neanderthals ate in a cave in Gibraltar, overlooking the Straits of Gibraltar.

Starting point is 00:35:10 And there's evidence that they actually cooked mussels. Talk about bread. It is the staff of life. So where did it come from? Again, I like to stimulate people's imagination and say, well, you know, what do you think the pyramids are built of? And of course, everybody will say sandstone sandstone and actually they're built of bread not literally but it's bread that actually powered the work that went into building these massive edifices uh they didn't use animal power as far as we know it was it was human muscle power. And what's amazing is that you can see in the paintings in some of the tombs the entire process of bread manufacture from growing the wheat. And we can see what kind of wheat it was because the pictures are so graphic to how it was baked. There's even a wonderful little model of a bakery.

Starting point is 00:36:05 It's now in the British Museum, but it was in one of the tombs, and it shows people grinding the corn and putting the bread into an oven. And there's, of course, also preserved specimens from 4,000 years ago or something like that. So bread is at least as old as that, but it's probably much older. It's probably goes back to the domestication of wheat. And that would have been about 11,000 years ago. So you mentioned that some of our ancient ancestors were vegetarian, vegan, and we're not. So when did that change? And it's changed, you know, pretty dramatically. I mean, today in our culture, a lot of people wouldn't consider a meal a meal if it didn't have meat in it. The extraordinary thing about the human diet is just how flexible it is.

Starting point is 00:36:54 So in New York, you know, the North will eat pretty much nothing but meat. And people in the tropics in India, for example, will eat nothing but vegetables. And we have everything in between. So the answer to your question really is is a cultural one and often the answers are very recent you know we eat a lot of meat these days and in North American Europe but um we're quite rich actually and meat's an expensive item on it you know in the global on the global table you know meat once or twice a week was once what people, you know, not that long ago, what people would expect. What about the introduction and evolution of using spices and herbs? Because, you know, when you think about it, people would cook

Starting point is 00:37:38 things, they would heat them up. But somebody at some point had to have said, well, you know, if we add a little of this and a little of that, it'll taste better. And how did that start? That's very interesting, isn't it? So people have speculated that spices may be preservative. And they are. They certainly have, you know. So just again to go back to the evolution.

Starting point is 00:38:02 So, I mean, why do spices and herbs taste good or why do they taste of anything? You know, I mean, the answer is because they contain biologically active compounds that plants have evolved to defend themselves against animals, in particular insects and also diseases. So the irony, I mean, I love this, that the irony of all the things we like to add to our food to make it taste good is that plants have largely evolved those things to stop animals eating them. For example, there are terpenes in thyme and rosemary and oregano and all those kinds of things. And of course, if you're a small insect nibbling on one of these things, then you're getting a very heavy dose and it might be deterrent. In fact, it is. But if you're a small insect nibbling on one of these things, then you're getting a very heavy dose and it might be deterrent. In fact, it is. But if you're a huge mammal like us and you're just putting a little bit on, then it's not a poison to us. It's actually a flavoring. But just think about the origin of these chemicals and how they evolved in plants. Not for our benefit, actually um as defensive compounds so to go back to your question

Starting point is 00:39:06 when did we start doing it i'm not sure we know i mean it might be possible to answer that in terms of particular examples so the chili for example chili peppers one could trace the origin of those being used and of course there's now a huge variety of them all belonging to just a couple of species originally. Is dessert pretty much of a Western thing? Or does everybody have dessert, at least now and again? Good question. One of the things we've done to our food, fruit, for example, is to make it very sweet, very sweet. So I'm told by my friends in edinburgh zoo uh here here in edinburgh who have chimpanzees among their uh animals is that of course chimps in the wild eat fruit but you can't feed zoo chimps fruit you get from the supermarket it's far too sweet it's really bad for them um you know they'll get diabetes and rotten teeth

Starting point is 00:40:05 because the fruit that animals in the wild eat that we would have eaten before we uh you know had agriculture isn't nearly as sweet as as what we're accustomed to so that's that's part of the answer i believe the whole thing about having meals in courses is a kind of French 18th century invention. I may have got that wrong. Somebody listening probably knows better than me than I do. But in food history, the much more usual thing would be just put all the food on the table at once and you just go for it. So there's kind of multiple answers to that. What is, in all your research on this what

Starting point is 00:40:46 are one or two things that really fascinate you that thing you just said about the fruit is interesting because i never heard that before that fruit today is sweeter domesticated fruit is sweeter than fruit in the wild but what anything else about food that people may not know like that that that really is interesting okay one more thing i think which and this is a hypothesis i have to say eating with others who you're not related to is really interesting from an evolutionary point of view because i think i'm right in saying we are the only animals who share our food willingly with people outside the immediate family i mean sharing food with your family has an obvious evolutionary origin but just sitting down and enjoying a meal with somebody maybe you've never met before

Starting point is 00:41:36 who's certainly not related to you is really interesting from an evolutionary point of view so it's basically a part of human cooperation. And we are, of course, extremely cooperative species. You know, it's worth thinking about how that came about. As far as sharing food is concerned, I think part of it is because at some point after we started to eat meat, we started to hunt very big animals so an ancestor of ours called homo erectus really loved eating elephants and we know this because wherever you find the remains of homo erectus you find the remains of elephants and it's reckoned they possibly even lived inside huts made from elephant bones covered in elephant hide so we're talking about about 1.8 million years ago something like that there's even a paper which suggests that wherever uh homo erectus arrived on the scene

Starting point is 00:42:30 so they evolved in africa just like we did but then they left africa and wherever they went elephants went locally extinct so we've been impacting our environment through our diet for a very long time the fascinating thing about you know a fairly small ape hunting something as big as an elephant is that you have to cooperate to do it right i mean there's no way you're going to bring down an elephant so you have to team up to do it and the reward for cooperating like that in the hunt is of course more meat than any one individual can eat so that rewards uh cooperation with enough food to share you know need to quarrel over food you share food it's the product of cooperation and that just is you know just i think that's a fascinating

Starting point is 00:43:20 possibility that that's how we we learn the food habits that make restaurants possible has alcohol always been part of the meal or did it merge into a meal did people used to drink somewhere else and then come eat or i mean how did alcohol become wine beer booze become part of dinner that's a good question so this goes back way into primate history so eating fruit is a primate thing okay and i i mentioned already that it's been wild fruit it's not that sweet although all fruit is sweet most fruit anyway becomes sweet when it's ripe okay so what happens immediately that happens you get sugar you get yeast and when you get yeast and sugar together we know that produces alcohol so you know you can see wild animals getting drunk on rotten fruit for example so the first alcoholic drinks probably

Starting point is 00:44:20 made themselves in that sense and it probably goes back way into our history so if you want to ask when it started becoming part of the food part of a meal i suppose it it came along with the ability to store it and you know we we think nothing of of storage these days you know we have fridges we have cans we have uh all kinds of ways in which we preserve food. And it's not something we really think about. But, you know, not that long ago, storing food, storing drinks and so on was a real problem, especially in the tropics where, you know, there wasn't any ice. look into this then um it probably goes back to the invention of pottery something like that when you could then start to store um alcohol well it is interesting how really we tend to take food for granted but when you stop and and listen to you talk about how food has evolved and how now it's everywhere all over the world you can get just about anything and

Starting point is 00:45:26 how things got to where they are today it's quite an interesting story jonathan silvertown's been my guest he is a professor of evolutionary ecology at the university of edinburgh in edinburgh scotland and he is author of the book dinner with dar, Food, Drink and Evolution. And you'll find a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Jonathan. You're welcome. Thanks so much. There are a lot of things in your house that you should either be throwing away or changing out more often than you probably do. For example, pillows.

Starting point is 00:46:05 The National Sleep Foundation suggests getting a new pillow every one to two years because, well, night after night of sleeping on a pillow causes it to absorb body oil, dead skin cells, hair, and plus it's full of dust mites and it's just gross. For pillowcases, the American Academy of Dermatology recommends changing your pillowcase two to three times per week. That's because of dead skin cells and bacteria that can aggravate acne. Plus, again, the gross factor of dead skin cells and bacteria all over your face.

Starting point is 00:46:43 Your toothbrush should be changed out every three to four months. The CDC says that toothbrushes become contaminated over time with plaque and other debris from teeth, bacteria, blood, saliva, and, of course, toothpaste. How about your kitchen sponges? In a 2017 study, researchers in Germany found that bacteria can cause foodborne disease to stay on a dish sponge or a scrubber, even after they've been cleaned in the microwave or in boiling water. You should be changing out your sponges every week, meaning throw it away and get a new one. Kitchen sponges are pretty inexpensive, and you should just stock up and swap them out weekly.

Starting point is 00:47:25 Your dish rag and dish towels can be a problem. Think about it. If you have 100 cells of bacteria on your dish rag, and each one divides every 15 minutes, within two hours you have 25,600 bacteria, according to one researcher. Your dish rags should be changed daily. And that is something you should know. Ratings and reviews are always appreciated. They help us a lot.

Starting point is 00:47:52 They let other people know what you think. And for all those reasons and more, please leave a review or rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. you know, possibly enrage you. And don't blame me. We dive deep into listeners' questions, offering advice that's funny, relatable, and real. Whether you're dealing with relationship drama or you just need a friend's perspective, we've got you. Then switch gears with But Am I Wrong, which is for listeners who didn't take our advice and want to know if they are the villains in the situation. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events and present situations that we might even be wrong in our lives.

Starting point is 00:48:45 Spoiler alert, we are actually quite literally never wrong. But wait, there's more. Check out See You Next Tuesday, where we reveal the juicy results from our listener polls from But Am I Wrong? And don't miss Fisting Friday, where we catch up, chat about pop culture, TV, and movies. It's the perfect way to kick off your weekend. So if you're looking for a podcast that feels like a chat with your besties, listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

Starting point is 00:49:09 or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Contained herein are the heresies of Rudolf Buntwine, erstwhile monk turned traveling medical investigator. Join me as I study the secrets of the divine plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth that ours is not a loving God and we are not its favored children. The heresies of Redolph Buntwine, wherever podcasts are available.

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