Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: Little Known Benefits of Exercise & Why It’s Good to Talk to Strangers

Episode Date: January 15, 2022

Why do some buildings have revolving doors? After all, they are sometimes heavy and hard to push, and a lot of people hate them. So where did they come from? There must be a purpose to them. Listen to hear a very surprising story. https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/63378/whats-point-revolving-doors If your 2022 New Year’s resolution involves exercising more, you really should listen to my guest Kelly McGonigal, research psychologist and lecturer at Stanford and author of the book, The Joy of Movement (https://amzn.to/2N2wide). Kelly explains not only the long-term benefits of movement but the instant and satisfying benefits of moving your body even just a little - right now. You may find what she has to say surprising as it isn't the same old exercise advice you've heard a million times before. Talking to strangers can be tedious. After all, what’s the point of having a 15 second conversation with someone in line at the supermarket who you will never see again? Perhaps that is not the way to look at it. Kio Stark has been seeking out strangers to talk to for a long time. She loves it. Kio is author of the book When Strangers Meet (https://amzn.to/2s2ihEU). Listen to hear her explain why and what benefits you can get for investing in those brief conversations rather than avoiding them. You can see her TED talk here: https://www.ted.com/talks/kio_stark_why_you_should_talk_to_strangers When a woman cries it can have a dramatic effect on a man. Not only because she is sad but also because of how her tears smell – seriously. This episode begins with an explanation of the connection between a woman’s tears and a man’s testosterone. http://healthland.time.com/2011/01/06/the-crying-game-womens-tears-dial-down-testosterone/ PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! Check out Squarespace.com for a free trial, and when you’re ready to launch, go to https://squarespace.com/SOMETHING to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Get a $75 CREDIT at https://Indeed.com/Something To see the all new Lexus NX and to discover everything it was designed to do for you, visit https://Lexus.com/NX Discover matches all the cash back you’ve earned at the end of your first year! Learn more at https://discover.com/match Find out how Justworks can help your business by going to https://Justworks.com https://www.geico.com Bundle your policies and save! It's Geico easy! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Melissa and Doug. Wooden puzzles and building toys for problem solving and arts and crafts for creative thinking, Melissa and Doug makes toys that help kids take on the world. Because the way they play today shapes who they become tomorrow. Melissa and Doug. The play is pretend. The skills are real. Look for Melissa and Doug wherever you shop for toys. Today on Something You Should Know,

when women cry, something happens to the men around them. I'll tell you what that is. Then, if you need some motivation to get active in the new year, you need to listen to this. We know that when people go from being less active to regularly active, their brain changes in two main ways. The brain becomes more sensitive to pleasure and joy. from being less active to regularly active, their brain changes in two main ways. The brain becomes more sensitive to pleasure and joy, so that everything good in life actually

feels even better. And exercise also makes your brain more resilient to stress. Also, why do revolving doors even exist? And some people hate making small talk with strangers. But my guest says it's rewarding, satisfying, and something we should all do. The point I'm trying to make is that what you get out of it is emotional rather than getting concrete information or networking connections. You're putting something into a moment, a momentary connection.

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The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi. You know, it's interesting, this being the beginning of 2022, it's around this time of year, the beginning of the year, that we seem to get a lot of new listeners. So I like to mention to new listeners, as well as remind people who have been listening

for a while, that we have a pretty extensive archive of back episodes. So when you get to the end of this episode today and you decide you like it, well, you might want to check out some of our previous episodes, which you can find wherever you're listening to this episode. First up today, to enter many commercial buildings, you often have the choice between using a regular door or a revolving door. Using a revolving door helps keep dust, rain, and snow from entering the building, and it's more energy efficient than a regular door. But that's not why it was invented.

The man who invented the revolving door in 1888 apparently hated, hated having to hold the door open for people, especially women. So he created the revolving door so he wouldn't have to. The first revolving door was installed at a restaurant in New York City in 1899 and quickly caught on because of its ability to save energy. But people don't use them as much as you might think. The fact is they are slower, they require more effort than a regular door, and so given the choice, more people still use the regular swing door.

And that is something you should know. This being January, when this episode is released, this is the time of year when people talk about getting fit, getting more exercise. People make resolutions to get more exercise, because we all know exercise is good for you. Yet, it's somehow hard to get motivated to do it. Well, maybe you need a new

approach. Maybe you would move more and exercise more if you believed, as my next guest does, that movement is not only good for you, it actually feels good to do it physically and mentally. There is a joy to moving, a joy that you may not understand. Kelly McGonigal is a research psychologist and lecturer at Stanford, and she was a guest here last summer talking about willpower. Today, she's here to talk about movement. Her latest book is called The Joy of Movement. Hey, Kelly, welcome.

Hi, it's great to be back. So when you talk about movement, as in the joy of movement, what are you talking about? Is it exercise, or how do you define movement? Well, movement is just using your body to engage with life. So that includes the things we call exercise, like running and weightlifting, but it also includes things like going for a walk and dancing and celebrating life. And humans were basically born to move. And the good news is that when we move our bodies, whether you think that you're exercising or whether you're having a dance party with your

kid in your living room, we know that the brain rewards you by releasing chemicals that increase your hope and your happiness, that make it easier to connect with other people. And the more physically active we are, the more people report the things that we want, like meaning in life and purpose. And the especially good news is that there's no particular form of exercise you have to do. So if you are someone who thinks that they hate to exercise, there's probably a form of movement that you might actually enjoy,

whether it's gardening or lifting heavy things or whatever it is. The idea that there's a particular type of movement you have to do to increase your heart health and you have to burn a certain number of calories or you have to do it in a certain place, that's not what the science says. Science says move your body and your brain will reward you. Well, if movement has all these benefits, if movement will bring you all this joy and optimism and peace and love and happiness, as well as physical fitness, why are we becoming less active? Why are people hard to motivate?

Why do they have to make New Year's resolutions to try to exercise and fail? Why don't we just do it? Well, part of it is how we frame it. If you only talk about movement as something you have to do to prevent a heart attack 10 years from now or to lose weight, for a lot of people that just brings up a bunch of stuff that they don't want to feel or they don't want to deal with. And maybe they go to the gym and they spend the whole time

looking in the mirror, critiquing their physique. And so part of it is just the framing, that we kind of miss the actual joys of movement and the benefits because we're so used to thinking of it as almost like a punishment for being alive and enjoying your food. So that's part of it. Another part is, you know, life is busy and complicated and our environment doesn't always remind us to exercise. So we need to often take it upon ourselves to figure out a way to make movement a part of our lives.

And again, the good news is that most people who think that they hate it have a different direct experience when they find the form of movement that works for their body and works in their life. So something I often find myself telling people is not to trust. Your brain will sometimes lie to you and say, oh, you're too tired. I don't have the energy for it. And maybe even tell you that you'll be more exhausted after you exercise or your brain will pretend and predict that you won't enjoy it at all. And the research shows that it's actually

pretty funny. Even people who think that exercise will make them more exhausted and miserable, when they actually do it, they report feeling better immediately and feeling amazing afterward. So sometimes you just have to trust the process and not necessarily listen to the state that you're in before you get the benefits of moving. Well, isn't what you just described part of the problem and the resistance is that the good feeling comes after.

I mean, I go to the gym and the time spent doing it, I don't know that it's all that much fun, but I sure feel good afterwards. But the actual doing, it's exhausting. It's a lot of exertion. It can be. And some people find that. Some people do enjoy that. Those are the folks who, you know, are going to the strength training gyms and they feel amazing doing hard things. And, like, that's something people can sometimes surprise themselves and find that they actually love something that they didn't know they would love until they tried it.

But there's also nothing wrong with putting in the time because you want to feel the way you feel afterward. You know, not everything in life has to be extremely pleasurable while you're doing it. So it may be the case that you decide to put in the time because you do feel like you can take on the world and you do have more energy later and you like the way that you feel about yourself. So I think both realities are a perfectly fine way to experience it. But I do want to, you know, say, put in a plug, many people can find a form of movement that they love. And one of the things we know that can enhance that feel-good effect sooner

is to pair movement with something that already brings you joy. For many people, it's being in nature. And so, you know, within minutes of going for a walk outside or hiking or swimming outdoors, people immediately feel better, even though they're also working their bodies harder. For some people, it's music. For me, the right playlist can make doing something that would feel miserable,

like cycling at very high levels of exertion. I would hate that, but you get the right music, and all of a sudden, it changes the way that I experience those feelings of exertion. For some people, it's going to be the people that you exercise with, and maybe you need to do something that allows you those feelings of exertion. For some people, it's going to be the people that you exercise with, and maybe you need to do something that allows you to connect with other people. So you don't have to be miserable.

Yeah, but don't you think, too, that part of the reason that people resist is this disconnect with expectation? Because we see all these beautiful fitness models, and people say, well, see, if you use this machine or you exercise for 20 minutes a week, you too can look like, well, you can't. You can't exercise 20 minutes three times a week and look like this lady who is probably in the gym six hours a day, seven days a week. I think that's exactly right.

It's true. You can't choose your body by doing small amounts of exercise. And because that's the way movement is often framed, it can be disappointing. And you can miss the fact that actually if you exercise for 20 minutes a week, you can actually start to relieve depression and improve your mood and enhance your meaning in life. Small doses of movement actually have big effects, but it won't necessarily transform your body. And so, you know, I think I'm always encouraging people to turn their attention to their direct experience for the benefits that you can get from very small doses. The other thing that I want to say is that the joys of movement are not limited to people

who appear to be in good shape, who are young, who are free from physical health challenges or disabilities. There's no size you need to be, there's no health you need to achieve in order to experience mental health and social benefits from movement. And that's why in the book, you know, I talk about people with Parkinson's disease, recovering from traumatic brain injuries, dealing with serious mental health challenges, even recovering from grief. A lot of the things that we think of that get in the way of exercise, that even in those circumstances, and lot of the things that we think of that get in the way of exercise, that even in those circumstances, and often especially in those circumstances,

finding a way to move your body, often in communities that support you, is one of the most important things that you can do. Well, I know there are classes and programs for people with conditions like Parkinson's disease, where these movement classes, I don't know if it reverses the disease, but can slow down the progression and really does help the people that attend these classes and programs to deal with their condition. Don't you agree? The research says that it absolutely does, and not only for Parkinson's, but also for Alzheimer's and many other, and depression, other things that we think of as diseases of the brain, can prevent, slow down, or even reverse sometimes the symptoms. I went to a dance class for people with Parkinson's disease, and it was amazing to see how even in just the course of a single hour of music and dancing, people were really liberated from many of the symptoms of the disease. And it's a perfect example of how important movement is to our ability to enjoy life.

I'm talking with Kelly McGonigal, and she is a research psychologist and author of the book, The Joy of Movement. This is an ad for better help. Welcome to the world. Please read your personal owner's manual thoroughly. In it, you'll find simple instructions for how to interact with your fellow human beings and how to find happiness and peace of mind. Thank you, and have a nice life. Unfortunately, life doesn't come with an owner's manual. That's why there's BetterHelp Online Therapy.

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and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. So, Kelly, what do you think is the minimum dose of exercise? No, there's like no minimum dose. If you just want to feel better, I always tell people like play a song and do anything with your body. And it is, you know, people listening should try this out. You will almost certainly feel better if you just move your body in a way that feels accessible to you right now, whether you, you know, do some yoga

stretches or you take a walk or you dance or do some pushups, whatever it is. The smallest dose I could find in the research was three minutes, but I don't think that it's actually required. So that's the good news. And then for people who are interested in really reaping the maximum mental health or brain benefits of movement, you start to see increasing benefits as people are active at least three times a week. So it's something to move toward. But there's no dose that is too small to immediately improve your mood. Well, but there is some sort of minimum dose in terms of the physical benefits. You can't move for three minutes a week and, you know, see a whole lot of cardiovascular improvement. No, you might not.

But if you start where you are, and you're able to do three minutes today, and you have more energy, and you feel more optimistic, and you're better able to handle whatever stress goes in your life, if cardiovascular health is your goal, and you do want to move towards maybe even as much as a couple of hours a week or more, getting started by doing something that you enjoy

and feeling the benefits of that is really motivating. So don't be afraid to start small. And often when people find the right form of movement, they find themselves willing to do more than they thought they would initially. When you talk to people or just your perception of people who don't move much, why don't they move much? You know, a lot of people have had negative experiences when they've tried to exercise. So maybe they show up at a gym and they feel like they don't belong or they feel body shamed because they're not already in what people

consider to be the ideal, you know, body size or type. For some people, they've had a negative experience where they tried a form of movement and maybe it was too much too soon or it just didn't bring a spark of joy to them. And for other people, you know, there are real challenges that life can make, can really make the motivation to move not seem as critical as it actually is. And this is true with a lot of aspects of self-care. It's often the things that we need the most, like sleep or nourishing food or movement. When we're in that state of being exhausted or stressed out or overwhelmed, we focus on maybe handling an immediate crisis rather than investing in our well-being. And so all of these are legitimate

reasons. They're not excuses, but they're things that we can also overcome. What do you find is the best way to begin? I know you said just get up and move, play some music and get up and move, but you know, that may or may not sustain very long. So, but what does? What work seems to work? When people find a community that they enjoy, that is probably the number one reason that people stay with movement. So I would encourage people who really want to make this a part of their lives for whatever the motivation, to look for a place where when you go to that space, you enjoy being there, whether you join a walking or running club, whether you find an amazing strength training gym where people are cheering you on for every personal best that you achieve, whether you're going to a community center, dance class, or yoga class.

Because the really interesting thing is that when we exercise, it actually creates the brain chemistry of social connection. So we become more social versions of ourselves when we exercise. So it's actually pretty easy to create connections in communities of movement. And that's often the glue that keeps people while they're, you know, taking time to also master and fall in love with whatever the movement is. And it's always interested me how, well, I can speak for myself, but I think I speak for other people too, that when you exercise and you're done,

you walk out of the gym or you get off the bike or whatever, you feel pretty spectacular. You're glad you did it. I've never heard of anybody doing a workout and going, oh, I'm so sorry I did that. And yet it doesn't seem to last very long. Like the next time seems just as hard as the last time to kind of get the momentum going and to try again for a lot of people. I know. I think you're right. In fact, I spoke with some professional athletes near the end of their career who said the same thing, that actually even, you know, professional athletes would wake up and think,

I don't want to go for this run this morning. Like people who've dedicated their whole lives to it. There's some interesting quirk about sort of our, the way that we've evolved and how our brains work, where until you're exerting energy, your brain is like, do you really want to do that? Why not just conserve that energy? And the truth is that may never go away. I feel the same way. And exercise is one of the most important things in my life. I wrote a whole book about it. And I think that if people think, if they're waiting for that to go away, that actually we learn to live with it. Just like sometimes it's hard to get out of bed in the morning and you want to hit snooze, but you also want the benefits of getting out of bed in the

morning. So we can do that. You mentioned a moment ago that one of the benefits is that you become more social, that it triggers that in the brain. Well, what else does it trigger in the brain? We haven't really talked very specifically, concretely about what are the benefits of doing this other than, yeah, I've always had this sense because people have told me that exercise is good for you. Well, so there are short-term benefits and long-term benefits. The short-term benefits, exercise of any form that gets your heart rate up even a little bit, really moderate intensity, tends to release endorphins, adrenaline, endocannabinoids,

which is the brain chemicals that cannabis mimics, as well as endogenous opioids and even oxytocin. So these are all neurochemicals that make us feel better, make us feel pleasure, that reduce stress and anxiety, that relieve pain. That's the feel-good effect. And that just happens while you're doing it. And it can persist sometimes for an hour or longer afterward, that feel-good effect. But what I'm really fascinated by is the long-term effects. We know that when people go from being less active to regularly active, their brain changes in two main ways. The brain becomes more sensitive to pleasure and joy.

So all of those systems I mentioned that you get an immediate boost from, they actually become more responsive over time. The reward system changes its structure. It actually, exercise remodels your brain so that everything good in life actually feels even better. It's one reason why exercise is so effective for depression. And exercise also makes your brain more resilient to stress. So it remodels the brain in a way that helps you recover from trauma, that helps you control

anxiety. And these are huge effects. And the studies show that, you know, if you've never exercised before, it takes about six weeks to start to see some of these longer term changes. So again, something I often find myself recommending to people is if you're just taking on a new movement commitment, see if you can make it to six weeks with this promise that your brain will, you'll literally have a different brain after six weeks. Since you've researched pretty deep into this, what do you find or what do people tell you,

or what's your sense of the big payoff here that maybe people don't think about or aren't aware of until they do it? I would say that so many people told me that movement changed how they thought about themselves and what they were capable of. You know, I remember in my own, so I've taught movement classes for two decades. I still remember the time this woman in her fifties did a headstand for the first time. And when she came down from the headstand, she couldn't stop laughing because she was so amazed that she had done it. And she literally was like, I have no idea what else might be possible in my life because anything seems possible after she was so amazed that she had done it. And she literally was like, I have no idea what else might be possible in my life,

because anything seems possible after she was able to master holding herself upside down after decades of thinking that she couldn't. And I heard from so many people, whether it was lifting a heavier weight than they'd ever thought they could lift, or finishing a marathon, that people would reach these movement milestones through not, you know,

incredibly intensive training, but just showing up and doing what you might think of as a, you know, a regular workout, but that there was something transformative about learning that they could grow and change in this way. And I think that's one of the biggest psychological benefits of taking up a new movement. Anything else we haven't talked about that you think is really important for people to get, especially this time of year? I know your listeners love new science. And I will say that the most interesting insight that I discovered researching the book was something called hope molecules. And this is, we now know that our muscles are endocrine organs that secrete chemicals into your bloodstream when you exercise. And some of those chemicals prevent cancer.

Some of those chemicals prevent heart disease. But some of the chemicals that your muscles secrete into your bloodstream when you exercise prevent depression and make you more resilient to stress. And the scientists who discovered them called them hope molecules. So I think this is fascinating. And the only way to get them into your bloodstream so they can reach your brain is to contract your muscles. And any movement will do that. So any movement that you're willing to do is like an intravenous dose of hope. Well, that's very motivating, especially this time of year when so many people say, yeah, this year, this is it. This is the year I'm really going to do something. And, you know, often people say that and fail.

But often it's because they set a pretty high goal. And what you're saying, the good news sounds like, is that you don't have to work out four hours a day, seven days a week to see some benefit. Nope. Do what you can now. Listen to your body, follow the joy, and pay attention to your direct experience. And if you do, I have faith that people will be able to follow through this time. Great. Yeah. Kelly McGonigal has been my guest. She is a research psychologist and lecturer at Stanford University, and her book is called The Joy of Movement.

And you will find a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks, Kelly. Thanks so much. This winter, take a trip to Tampa on Porter Airlines. Enjoy the warm Tampa Bay temperatures and warm Porter hospitality on your way there. All Porter fares include beer, wine, and snacks and free fast-streaming Wi-Fi on planes with no middle seats.

And your Tampa Bay vacation includes good times, relaxation, and great Gulf Coast weather. Visit FlyPorter.com and actually enjoy economy. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies

and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. When you meet a stranger on a plane or a train or in line for coffee or the grocery store, do you enjoy those conversations and find value in them? Or do you dread them as being pointless conversations that don't mean much? And maybe it depends on the situation. Sometimes they're fine, other times not so much. But talking to strangers is something we all have to do.

And if you're in the right frame of mind, maybe it's a good idea to step up and try to make it more meaningful. That's what Keo Stark believes. Keo has been deliberately talking to strangers for a long time. She is, and these are her words, obsessed with talking to strangers. She created a TED Talk about it and wrote a book about it called When Strangers Meet. Hi, Keo. Thanks for coming on Something You Should Know. Hi. Thanks for having me.

So you're obsessed with talking to strangers. And I know people who are obsessed with not talking to strangers. And I know people who are obsessed with not talking to strangers. And I know sometimes I feel like that. Most people feel like that, that they really want to avoid that chit chat with a stranger because they're not in the mood. And rarely does it seem that there's a whole lot of value in it. Well, first of all, I forgive you for not wanting to talk to strangers. And I would never twist anyone's arm about it. Well, I don't know. I'm not saying I never want to talk to strangers,

but haven't you ever been on that flight where you just want to be left alone or you're sitting at the airport and you don't want to talk to that person? Absolutely, 100%. There are situations when I feel open to it and there are situations where I feel totally trapped by it. I have pretended not to speak English before I have held up a giant book to my face to not have to talk. This is on airplanes, particularly where you can't go anywhere. But in terms of why I do like to talk to strangers, there are a couple of reasons. The most visceral and

immediate thing for me is that it is a kind of intimacy. You can call it fleeting intimacy. That's the sort of sociological term. It makes you feel good if it's something that you're wanting, making very brief little human connections, feeling like you belong, like you're being recognized and seen. These are actually really important moments that add up to sort of fulfilling our general need for intimacy, which, you know, we think of as something we get from people we're close to. But momentary closeness is also a very grounding and

satisfying thing. So one of the reasons that I think people don't like talking to strangers is they don't necessarily see the value in it. The talk is very surfacy. It's hi, how you doing? Fine. And where are you from? It doesn't go anywhere. It doesn't mean anything. And when you part company, nothing ever comes of it. So why bother? Yeah, that's a great point. I think the thing to remember about talking to strangers is that it's about a social connection. It's not about information being exchanged. So if you want to get very technical about this, social scientists and linguists call this phatic communication, which means that it is not about exchanging facts or factual information or necessary information. It is social information. It is saying, I see you,

hello, how's the weather? If you can understand that as a moment of connection, that changes what you expect from it. I don't really love talking about the weather either. I do find that that's the thing people will say if they are trying to reach out, you can just smile at people and it has almost the same effect. If you're not expecting anything lasting or deep conversationally out of these exchanges, you can see and feel that what they're doing is making you feel socially acknowledged and located. Which sometimes we like having happen and sometimes we don't. Yes, absolutely. Sometimes the last thing you want to do is interact with anyone.

And I also often don't want to interact with people. When I meet people at conferences, for example, they think that I'm going to want to be like talking to everyone and I hide in my room half the time. Whenever it's a sort of forced situation, like on an airplane, like at a conference where it's expected of you, I immediately don't want to do it and feel overwhelmed. And I'm the expert. Right. You're the expert at this. So you just said a moment ago that when we look for a return on our investment in these kinds of things, we're often disappointed. Yet you must get a return on your investment. You wouldn't do this if you didn't. So what is the return on your investment that you look to do

this, that you, by your own words, are obsessed with this, because you must get something out of it. Absolutely. I think the point I'm trying to make is that what you get out of it is emotional rather than getting concrete information or networking connections or a relationship that lasts. you're putting something into a moment, a momentary connection. For me, as someone who is extending myself to a stranger, and again, this can be just by smiling, by saying hello, it could be by making idle chit chat with someone. What I get is this feeling of recognition, of connectedness, of we're having a human moment here to absolutely individual people. Also, people that you smile at, if it's in the right circumstances, well, you can feel

that they are happy that you have opened yourself up to them. There are also a lot of situations where it quickly turns into what I would think of as a real conversation, meaning it's not about the weather, it's about something more personal. I don't mean someone telling you their innermost secrets. But sometimes when you ask someone how they're doing, it's this kind of routine communication that's actually just an acknowledgement. And sometimes somebody will say, like, you know what, I'm having a rough day. And then you ask them why, or you say, I'm sorry to hear that. And as long as they're not someone who is kind of inappropriately opening themselves up

to you, that can be a really nice thing to take a moment and you can walk away from that feeling like, oh, that was a person that I just talked to in this world of strangers and big city. Another reason that people, I think, don't look forward to talking to strangers and avert their attention, avert their eyes, is because they don't really know what to say. They don't know how that conversation is supposed to go other than the usual, hi, how are you? What's new? Or, you know, or whatever it is you say, you don't know how to, and it feels kind of phony. And so what's the advice? Sure. I mean, if you're, if you're looking for help about starting a conversation, then we're not talking about, you know, you're passing someone on the street and smiling and saying hello, we're talking about you are sitting next

to someone on a train or a plane or waiting in line or any of what we might think of as transitional spaces that are more kind of open to people interacting. And I like to think of it as what's a question you could ask someone that would give them space to tell you a story. So if you ask somebody what they do for a living, that can be as little as a one sentence answer. You know, I'm a writer, I'm a radio host, I'm a lawyer, I'm a teacher. If you ask somebody, what did you do today? Or, you know, let's say you're on a plane, like, why are you going to Chicago? What, you know, what's going on for you there? One of the things about interacting with strangers and getting some sort of pleasurable result from it is you have to kind of push just ever so slightly on the line of what is socially conventional.

So you're asking someone a direct question, which is walking just a centimeter over the line of privacy. The person may not want to answer that. They may say, you know, oh, just business. Or it's an opening for them to tell you a story. And I think that's what it's really all about is creating openings. There are also, and this is more related to kind of street situations, but I think it would apply in a conference or at a party. There are a couple of known strategies for starting conversations with people or starting interactions. The first way is making eye contact.

That's going to give you a lot of information about whether somebody wants to be open to an interaction or doesn't. You can look them in the eye. If they look at you and smile, great. If they look away, then you leave it alone. And that one's particularly useful in the present moment for men who are talking to people on the street and may want to be friendly to a woman in the neighborhood, for example. You know, pay attention to the eye contact and be really respectful of it. The second thing is if you're making eye contact with someone, just smiling,

just saying hello, that often turns into a little bit more of an exchange. It may also just have this kind of social comfort effect. After that, there's an idea of triangulation, which basically means there's you, there's another person, and there's some third thing between you or around you that you can use to start a conversation. In public space, this might be something like public art or some disruption going on, some construction. It might be some child doing something strange or entertaining. The idea is that it's a sort of neutral thing that you can open a conversation about rather than asking the person a personal question about themselves. They can see it too. They can comment on it. That may start a conversation. It may turn into the person saying, oh yeah, that kid is cute,

and then turning away. Part of what has to go on here is a sort of sensitivity to people's social signals like gaze, like what they're doing with their body, like whether they are using those things to continue a conversation or to end it. I like to give people compliments. I'm sort of famous for giving people compliments on their shoes. One of the reasons for that is that I think shoes are kind of fabulous. Another reason for that is they're very neutral. When you comment on someone's shoes, you're not really commenting on their personal appearance. You know, it has nothing to do with their body. I would only compliment someone on their shoes if they were genuinely worthy of compliment.

And someone who is wearing something beautiful or delightful or unusual, chances are they're going to want to take the compliment on that. And a lot of the time there's a story that goes with the fabulous shoes or hat or whatever it may be. I don't advise commenting on people's clothing. That's just too close to the body itself. And these conversations, once you get in them, sometimes are awkward to end. Like you're standing at the party at the dip table and you kind of run out of steam, but there you still are. And now what do you do? Yes, yes. So we talk about this in terms of exit strategies from a conversation. There are social signals you can use to suggest that you would like to exit the conversation.

Those have to do with starting to physically remove yourself, taking a step back, for example. Even if it's a small step, there's kind of a radius of conversation that's acceptable. And this really changes from culture to culture and situation to situation. But if you back out of whatever feels like the normal conversational range, then you're suggesting, okay, I'm done here. You may need to have a concrete thing to say. I've got to go get another drink. I have to check on my kid. My phone is ringing. I would always, at a party particularly or a conference, go into it with a couple of exit strategies planned. Anything that's polite, you don't want to say to somebody,

I think I'm done talking to you. That wouldn't be very kind. And most of the time, people take those things for what they are, which is an ending to a conversation. I have plenty of times said to someone, I need to go get another drink, but I'm really coming right back, like stay here, because I think that I have to go get another drink is generally a signal that I'm done here. There's also one interesting thing about interactions is that there can be a power dynamic in a conversation that's ongoing. And in that case, the person who has more power or clout in the situation is the one who has the right to end it. And the person who has less power may feel less, less authority to end the conversation or to start giving these exit signals. I think one of the reasons people shy away or don't like talking

to strangers, and at least least initially is that fear of rejection of that fear of you're going to try to start a conversation with someone who has no interest in talking to you my experience is that doesn't happen very often that usually people are grateful especially like at a party if they're the only one kind of off by themselves they they're thankful that you came over and started the conversation. Nevertheless, it seems that people are afraid of that rejection. I think you're absolutely right. A great party strategy, as you say, is to find somebody who looks like they're on their own or feel awkward and go talk to them. Chances are they are alone and awkward, not

because they're unpleasant or have bad breath, just because they're awkward or haven't gotten comfortable in the room yet, or they're waiting for the person that they know. And walking up to someone and saying, Hi, I'm Keo, generally starts a conversation, particularly with a person who's by themselves. It's interesting how we sometimes fear rejection, but how many times has it ever happened where someone has just, you know, just rejected you out of hand when you tried to start a conversation? It doesn't happen that often, I can't imagine. Hasn't happened to me. When people have positive experiences with another person, with another type of person, they become more comfortable pretty easily. It extends from an individual to whatever group you

think that individual belongs to. This is called the contact hypothesis. And it really works, it really happens. There's also the problem that a negative experience with some individual person or a person you identify with the group kind of weighs more than the positive experiences. So I do want to tell people to be careful with their emotions in practicing like that. If you have too many negative experiences, it's going to be really hard to keep trying. But if you try it five times, you're probably going to have a good result for most of them. Somebody will be open and cheerful about interacting with you. Well, I know the expectation is not that, you know, this is going to turn into your new best friend. But the fact is that your best friend was once a stranger, and you had to talk

to him once the first time. And so I mean, there's always the potential that it could. I did a book giveaway on Twitter recently, where I asked people for their favorite stranger interactions. And, you know, I got 20 or 30 answers, and half of them were stories about I started chatting with somebody on a plane or at a train station or something, and now they're my best friend. I was surprised. I've never had – I wouldn't have expected that many people to have that kind of an answer, that percentage of the answers. So, yeah, you never know what's going to happen with any of these interactions. But if you go

into it expecting that, you'll be disappointed. If you go into it expecting to have a nice little moment and it turns into something more, then you'll be delighted. Well, whether you like it or not, you're going to be talking to strangers. It's kind of what we do, so might as well do it right. Keo Stark has been my guest. She's obsessed with talking to strangers, and she's author of the book When Strangers Meet. There's a link to that book and to her TED Talk in the show notes. A woman's tears can be a powerful tool. So powerful they can shut down a man's desire.

In a study, scientists showed a group of female volunteers some sad movies and collected their tears. They then asked the male volunteers to sniff the tears. Some were real tears and some were just saline. A whiff of the real tears caused testosterone levels to drop significantly. Women's emotional tears contain a chemical sign that reduces sexual arousal in men. And that is something you should know. Are you one of those people that listens to podcasts but never leaves a review or anything? Do me a favor and just this time make an exception to the rule

and leave a review for this podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Hey, hey, are you ready for some real talk and some fantastic laughs? Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa D. M, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? We're serving up four hilarious shows every week designed to entertain and engage and, you know, possibly enrage you. In Don't Blame Me, we dive deep into listeners' questions,

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to the mythical land of Camelot. During her journey, Isla meets new friends, including King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, and learns valuable life lessons with every quest, sword fight, and dragon ride. Positive and uplifting stories remind us all about the importance of kindness, friendship, honesty, and positivity. Join me and an all-star cast of actors, including Liam Neeson, Emily Blunt, Kristen Bell, Chris Hemsworth, among, honesty, and positivity. Join me and an all-star cast of actors, including Liam Neeson, Emily Blunt, Kristen Bell, Chris Hemsworth, among many others, in welcoming the Search for the Silver Lining podcast to the Go Kid Go network by listening today.

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