Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: Secrets of Self-Control & The Fascinating History of Blue Jeans

Starting point is 00:00:00 As a listener to Something You Should Know, I can only assume that you are someone who likes to learn about new and interesting things and bring more knowledge to work for you in your everyday life. I mean, that's kind of what Something You Should Know is all about. And so I want to invite you to listen to another podcast called TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks. Well, you see, TED Talks Daily is a podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday in less than 15 minutes. Join host Elise Hu. She goes beyond the headlines so you can hear about the big ideas shaping our future.

Starting point is 00:00:42 Learn about things like sustainable fashion, embracing your entrepreneurial spirit, the future of robotics, and so much more. Like I said, if you like this podcast, Something You Should Know, I'm pretty sure you're going to like TED Talks Daily. And you get TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts. Today on Something You Should Know, why small kids

Starting point is 00:01:07 should never be left alone with a dog. Then, understanding willpower and how to use it to your advantage. You know, one thing that's really important is not look out at other people and assume that they have this amazing strength that we lack. And what I've actually found in working with people on willpower challenges over the years is that all of us, when we find a goal that's really important to us, we all have these strengths. Also, the germiest thing on your dining room table you need to clean right now. And everything you ever wanted to know about blue jeans, where they come from, why they're so popular, and why we call them jeans. The word jeans comes from Genoa, Italy, which was a major shipping port in the Middle Ages,

Starting point is 00:01:50 and the French called the Genoans the Jeanne. And one of the things that they made in Genoa was sort of a precursor to denim material, which was known as jean cloth. All this today on Something You Should Know. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared.

Starting point is 00:02:20 It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice

Starting point is 00:03:13 you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hey, welcome to Something You Should Know. I want to start today with something I think is so important, and that is the subject of children and dogs. Because most of us think of children and dogs as a wonderful combination. And in some cases, maybe it is, but it can also be a very dangerous combination. A study that was reported in the British Medical Journal concluded that children should never be left alone with dogs unsupervised. Never. Period. End of story. Why? Because under certain conditions, any dog will bite, and dog bites can be severe. Children need to be taught how to behave around dogs so the dog doesn't feel threatened. So kids have to learn how to avoid direct eye contact with a dog.

Starting point is 00:04:11 They have to be reminded not to run or scream or startle a strange dog. Never pet a dog without letting the dog sniff them first. And never disturb a dog that's eating, sleeping, or caring for their puppies. There also seems to be a correlation between dog bites and warm weather. Dogs are much more likely to bite when the temperatures rise. And that is something you should know. How many times have you said to yourself, I wish I had more willpower?

Starting point is 00:04:46 It's pretty common, I suspect. We all struggle with wanting to do something or stop doing something that's really, really hard to do. Well, Kelly McGonigal is a psychologist and lecturer at Stanford University and author of the book, The Willpower Instinct. How self-control works, why it matters, and what you can do to get more of it. And I don't know anybody who knows more about willpower than she does. And she's here to shed some light on this very important topic. Hi, Kelly.

Starting point is 00:05:17 Thanks for having me. So what is willpower? I define willpower as the ability to do what matters most to you, even when it's difficult, or especially when some part of you wants to do something else. So like, when you think about the word willpower, what's something that challenges you? What would you say you need to use willpower for? I need willpower, I think, for a lot of things. But the biggest challenge I find is perhaps late at night when, you know, there's something in the kitchen, a piece of things, but the biggest challenge I find is perhaps late at night when, you know, there's something in the kitchen, a piece of pie I could go eat that I probably know I shouldn't.

Starting point is 00:05:51 And if it were in the morning, I wouldn't do it. But in the evening, I don't seem to have as much willpower and I'm more likely to cave. That is such a great example for a couple of reasons. One, you have perfectly described, I think, the central challenge of willpower, which is that there are a lot of things in life where there's one part of us that wants one thing and another part of us that wants something else. So maybe in this case, when you're in the kitchen, there's a part of you who wants health, longevity, vitality, whatever it is that's making you think you shouldn't have that extra piece of cake or dessert. And then there's another part of you that thinks it's going to taste really good right now. And maybe you're feeling a little low on energy and you want a little pick me up and it's just calling your name. And there's this competition

Starting point is 00:06:32 of selves, the two parts of yourself. And one way to think about willpower is it's the ability to remember what that sort of long-term self or wiser self wants so that you're not constantly giving into immediate gratification. But the other thing you said that's so, I think, important for people to realize is, you know, willpower is not a fixed thing. It's not the case that if you have a lot of willpower, you always have a lot of willpower, like it's a personality trait. It actually is more like an energy or strength that we draw on. And it is the case, as you described, that when we're tired, when we haven't had enough sleep,

Starting point is 00:07:07 when our blood sugar is low, or when we're feeling really stressed out, we often have less access to our willpower and we're more likely to give in to immediate gratification. And when I do that, and I think when most people do that, you know, the test of failing willpower is the next day you think to yourself, yeah, geez, I really wish I hadn't.

Starting point is 00:07:28 Yes. And, you know, that actually is a great moment to reinforce your willpower. So, you know, when we think about what willpower is, we're often thinking of that. I won't power the part of you who maybe the night before should have said no and close the refrigerator door. And that's just one part of willpower, the ability to not give in to temptation. But we often don't talk about this other aspect of willpower that I call, I want power. And that's the ability to be really clear about what it is you care about, what's most important to you. And when you're really

Starting point is 00:08:00 clear about that, it actually makes it easier when you're faced with that choice, that moment of temptation or that moment of anxiety or dread to find the courage or the strength to make the choice that's consistent with your biggest goals, your most important values. Is willpower, do you think, a virtue? And what I mean by that is, for example, when you look at like world-class athletes who train like crazy and they deny themselves a lot of things to get their body to look like that and to perform like that, and I don't think I have that. I don't think I can do that. And is what they have a virtue that just some people have and some people don't? You know, one thing that's really important is not look out at other people and assume that they have this amazing strength that we lack.

Starting point is 00:08:50 Often when we look at athletes, yeah, they might have amazing willpower because a certain goal is really important to them. And you'll see that in some aspects of their life, like in training or in diet. But it may be the case that in other aspects of their life, they're falling apart a little bit. You know, maybe they're having other aspects of their life, they're falling apart a little bit. You know, maybe they're having affairs or they're gambling or they're struggling with drugs and alcohol. And what I've actually found in working with people on willpower challenges over the years is that all of us, when we find a goal that's really important to us, we all have these strengths, the ability to resist temptation, to put our energy toward what matters most to us. I call that the I will power. You know, we can find energy toward what matters most to us. I call

Starting point is 00:09:25 that the I will power. You know, we can find the I won't power to say no to the things that get in the way if we have a strong enough want power. And I would guess that if I were to analyze your life, I'd find something in your life where you're showing tremendous willpower because it's what matters most to you. And what matters most to you is not necessarily being a world-class athlete or, you know, sculpting the perfect body. Well, I think it's a perception that people often have is when you see a world-class anybody, athlete, business person, actor, that they're so on top of their game in that, that they must be on top of their game in all elements of life. But I always suspect that if you're so self-disciplined

Starting point is 00:10:06 and self-controlled in one area, that your humanness has got to leak out somewhere else, that you can't be on top of your game in every aspect of your life. Yeah, I think that actually is the case, and you often see that. But there is a common idea in the science of willpower that willpower is a limited resource. It's a kind of a controversial idea right now. But I've actually found it quite helpful when people are thinking about making important changes in their lives, to understand that if there's something that you're spending a lot of time and energy trying to control, and you want to change something else in your life, you might need to shift some of that control, some of that energy away from the other thing, so that you can put your energy and attention

Starting point is 00:10:48 toward what matters most right now. This idea that we could ever be perfect human beings who are controlling every thought, every action, every temptation, that's not really what willpower is about. I think that's why I define it as being able to choose what matters most. Well, I think that's really key to this discussion, because so often, I think that's why I define it as being able to choose what matters most. Well, I think that's really key to this discussion, because so often, I think, when we think of willpower, we think in terms of being able to deny ourselves something. But what you're saying, if I hear you correctly, is that it's not just what you're not going to do, but if you have something that you do want to do, it makes it easier. Exactly. And in fact, when we talk about willpower being a bit of a limited resource, it seems like the I won't power is actually more limited than our I will power.

Starting point is 00:11:35 That is when we have a positive motivation and there's something that we want to chase, or there's a goal that we're making progress toward, that often is more motivating. We have more energy behind it than when we're constantly trying to say that often is more motivating. We have more energy behind it than when we're constantly trying to say no to something. It's why often when people are trying to quit a bad habit, one of the pieces of advice you'll often hear is you have to find something to replace it with, or you have to be very clear about how when you say no to that cigarette, what is it you're saying yes to? Is it being a good role model for your kids? Is it that you're saying yes to an extra

Starting point is 00:12:05 year of your life? And you can make that kind of concrete link in your mind. Because like you said, just saying no all the time to something that seems like it might feel good right now, or might be easier right now, that can actually be exhausting. And we weren't born to have unlimited reserves to say no to immediate gratification or comfort. Well, there is that rationalizing that humans do of, you know, what's one more cigarette? What's one more piece of pie? I could skip the gym today. It's not going to make any difference. Yes, there are a lot of cognitive traps that we fall into when we're trying to make a change or make progress on our goals. One of them is this idea we have that our future self is going to have more willpower than our current self.

Starting point is 00:12:51 And it's actually, it's a funny psychological phenomenon. Researchers have found that if you ask people, how much free time do you think you'll have a few weeks in the future? How much energy do you think you'll have? How much self-control do you think you'll have? We idealize our future selves, and we think that our future self is going to be able and willing to do something that is really hard for us right now. And that's one of the reasons why we say, well, just one more cigarette or drink today and tomorrow a fresh start. And I always encourage people to take the smallest

Starting point is 00:13:20 positive action that is possible for your present self. Because actually, you know, one of the ways that we strengthen our willpower is by making very small choices that just ask us to flex one of our willpowers, to delay giving in for, say, five minutes. Even if you end up giving in, we know from the science that that actually builds willpower like a muscle so that we're capable of actually doing more tomorrow. That's how we get a future self that actually builds willpower like a muscle so that we're capable of actually doing more tomorrow. That's how we get a future self that actually is stronger. So you mean if you're craving that piece of pie,

Starting point is 00:13:54 tell yourself, wait five minutes, just wait five minutes. Yes, and you know, some people think that's a trick and you'll forget about it. But even if you eat it and you went through that delay of five minutes, here's what you have strengthened. So first of all, we know that if people even define a choice as a willpower challenge, it increases their chances that they will make a choice consistent with their bigger goals. And then if you actually get through those five minutes, you're doing something that researchers sometimes refer to as surfing the

Starting point is 00:14:18 urge. It's the strategy of acknowledging in this moment, some part of me really wants to give in. And maybe you feel that desire, you feel that anxiety, you feel that impatience. And rather than trying to distract yourself and pretend like it's not happening, you actually let yourself feel it, acknowledge it, and feel yourself saying no for 10 seconds, for 30 seconds, for a minute, for five minutes. And studies also show that when people go through that process, even if they give in at the end of three minutes or five minutes or 10 minutes, that the next time they go through that process, they can delay longer or they actually end up delaying completely. And in fact, this technique that I just described, this like notice the temptation and try to resist it while paying attention to it, it's been shown to be more effective for quitting smoking than actually nicotine replacement therapy.

Starting point is 00:15:08 What about the idea, I think it's kind of conventional wisdom in trying to make a change or to do something like lose weight or whatever it is, that you can't deprive yourself forever and so that if you're a good six days out of the week, that the seventh day you can cheat kind of thing, that you have to have some reward for sticking to it. How does that work in this? A lot of times people identify with the part of themselves that really just wants the immediate relief or the immediate gratification. And that's when they can fall into this trap of trying to reward themselves for resisting. So, you know, if I ate a healthy breakfast, then I can reward myself with an unhealthy lunch because part of you is thinking like who I really am is the person

Starting point is 00:15:55 who wants the unhealthy food. And so I have to, I have to express that part of myself in order to balance out the suppression or the repression of my true self that happened at breakfast when I ate something healthy. And if we can get very clear about who we are and what our values are, it's less likely we're going to fall into that trap. You know, you only have to bribe yourself or reward yourself for being good if who you think you really are is bad. And I actually don't even like to use those moral terms. The other thing I will say is that, you know, it's also

Starting point is 00:16:30 the case that when we engage in a behavior over time, it often becomes more intrinsically rewarding. Exercise is a perfect example of this. So is saving money or paying down your debt. There are a lot of things that don't sound fun until you've been doing it for a while and you start to get better at it. And you start to realize, I really like how I feel when I'm doing this. And I really like how I feel after I've done it. And a lot of the things that we think of as being a chore that we have to endure because it's good for us, if they actually are good for us in the sense that they help us have more energy, more health, more happiness, they give us more control over our lives. If they really are good for us, they will feel good in the long term. And so it's not the case that you're going to have to, for the rest of your life, try to bribe yourself to do the quote-unquote good thing.

Starting point is 00:17:19 Kelly McGonigal is here. She is a psychologist and lecturer at Stanford University and author of the book, The Willpower Instinct. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a co-founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lightning, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot.

Starting point is 00:17:48 During her journey, Isla meets new friends, including King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, and learns valuable life lessons with every quest, sword fight, and dragon ride. Positive and uplifting stories remind us all about the importance of kindness, friendship, honesty, and positivity. Join me and an all-star cast of actors, including Liam Neeson, Emily Blunt, Kristen Bell, Chris Hemsworth, friendship, honesty, and positivity. Join me and an all-star cast of actors, including Liam Neeson, Emily Blunt, Kristen Bell, Chris Hemsworth, among many others, in welcoming the Search for the Silver Lining podcast to the Go Kid Go Network by listening

Starting point is 00:18:14 today. Look for the Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue.

Starting point is 00:18:53 It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed, critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, Kelly, this may be just a complete rationalization people use, but the idea of willpower is basically, in most of our minds,

Starting point is 00:19:41 basically the ability to do something you don't want to do or to not do what you do want to do. I know it's exactly the opposite of what I think willpower really is. And it's because, oh gosh, there's so many reasons why it's part of our culture. You know, it's, it's part of how we were raised as children. Um, and I, I just wish if I could challenge one idea that people have about what willpower is, it's really to give people permission to understand that the reason we have willpower, the reason that your brain and body knows how to resist temptation, the reason that your brain can mount this defense against fear and anxiety that, that you need to overcome to have the courage to

Starting point is 00:20:23 do something difficult. The reason you have that is because we are equipped to pursue the things that are most important to our survival and most important to our happiness and our well-being. And that's what we have these strengths for. And we should give ourselves permission to direct those strengths at the things that matter most to us. And if there's something you really don't want, it is such a waste of our strength and our energy to try to marshal all your willpower toward it, whether it's trying to control your thoughts or trying to be someone you're not, or trying to control something that as it turns out is really hard to control, like your weight. There are times when you can say, this is not working and I'm going to put my energy and attention toward what I believe will

Starting point is 00:21:08 truly enhance my life and allow me to contribute to the world. And that's what we have willpower for. But there are things that compete that, like, you may say, you know, I really want to be healthy, but God, if life wouldn't be, if I had to give up donuts, life would be horrible. So those two things are competing. Are they incompatible? Are they mutually exclusive? Let me take a very firm stand on this, that donuts are not incompatible with being a good person or having willpower or even having good health. I will definitely always come down on the side of donuts. And here's the thing. When people are talking about having to

Starting point is 00:21:50 use willpower to make a difficult change, it's never about one donut. One donut is not going to destroy your health or your happiness. But often in our lives, we find ourselves in patterns, in habits that are creating more suffering than they are creating joy. You know, the people who most need to marshal their willpower toward food choices are actually the ones who, if you take a look carefully, if they investigate their experience, maybe they'll find that they have a relationship with food that makes them feel worse about themselves, that is creating obvious negative health consequences, that they're using food as a coping mechanism. And in those cases, the suffering is actually

Starting point is 00:22:30 pretty clear. And that's different than do you celebrate your kid's birthday with a donut? And I think when I'm helping people figure out like what's a willpower challenge that I want to tackle, rather than having people start with the most obvious choices, the things we tend to set New Year's resolutions around. But to really ask people, what's something in your life right now that's creating suffering that you think if you were to change it, that habit or that pattern, it would relieve some of the suffering in your own life? And what's something that would create more joy or more meaning? And to find your way towards the answer to that question. And that's why we need willpower around food, not because there's some sort of moral imperative never to enjoy yourself.

Starting point is 00:23:12 Even with the best of intentions, even with a strategy in place, everybody who is trying to exert willpower will come face to face with some temptation that's going to be very, very hard to resist. And so what do you do in that moment? What do you do right then when it looks like it's a losing battle? One of the things I often encourage people to do is to imagine that they already know the end of the story. And this can really support willpower, whether you need I won't power or I will power, to actually imagine

Starting point is 00:23:45 yourself a year or 10 years in the future where you've resolved this challenge. You have made the change and to have a clear vision of that. Because one of the things we know is that willpower as a, as a strength or as an instinct in your brain and body, it's really about the future. And if you have a positive vision of your future, your brain and body are more likely to shift into that, that biological state that helps you say no, or that helps you find the energy to keep going. Um, and so, you know, if someone were to tell me that they felt hopeless about past failures, I would say, create that vision of the positive future. And in a very non woowoo-woo way, it's literally going

Starting point is 00:24:27 to help the brain give you the resources and the strength you need the next time you try to quit, or the next time you try to take positive action. And so how does willpower work best? Does willpower work best when you take little steps, or does willpower work best when you try to dive into the deep end of the pool and just go for everything? What's the best strategy? Both. This is a wonderful yes and kind of answer that you can find evidence in the scientific literature for both of those strategies to take the smallest concrete steps, even if they seem like they couldn't possibly add up to the outcome you want. There are plenty of studies showing that any positive action,

Starting point is 00:25:10 any small step in the direction of your goal can actually become cumulative, can lead to an upward spiral toward change. And you should never be afraid to do something because it seems too small. As I mentioned, there was one study that showed that if you can delay your first cigarette of the day, even by a few minutes, that increases your chance of being able to quit. And that's something that anyone can do. And you can sort of figure out what's your version of that. What's your version of delaying the first cigarette of the day and knowing that that can lead to positive change. But also, you know, at the other end, there's some people who, when they get very clear about what they want, they know what their goal is, or they know what that value is, that making a bigger change helps them because it becomes sort of part of their identity.

Starting point is 00:25:53 So if you're someone who feels like I need to go into this all out, I need to make this a core part of who I am, I would never want to discourage somebody from taking a bigger step toward change if it feels like that's what's possible in this moment I mean the real answer is you start where you are and you don't wait until tomorrow to start but if you are to say if you say to yourself you know I really want to get healthy so tomorrow I'm going to start jogging twice a day I'm going to um that I'm going to go to the gym I'm going to drink lots of water I'm going to I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to drink lots of water. I'm going to do all these 17 things starting tomorrow, and I'm going to do them every day. That seems like a prescription for failure. You know, it might be for 99 people, but I bet you there's one person listening to this

Starting point is 00:26:36 who could nail that because that's part of their core personality. There's some people who are just all in. But I think actually your central point is quite important, that sometimes we set these extreme goals of change because it feels so good in the moment to make that vow. We get this hit of optimism and hope and dopamine when we say, tomorrow is when everything changes and I'm a completely different person. And if you sense that that's part of what's driving all of these resolutions to do the different things that you listed, that's when I say, okay, maybe slow your roll a little bit.

Starting point is 00:27:13 Pull back and say, what's the one thing that you definitely can do tomorrow? And trust yourself that that can become part of this upward spiral of change. It doesn't all have to happen tomorrow in order to be of consequence. But there is that one listener I'm telling you, probably somebody heard it and they're going to do it tomorrow because they hear it and they say yes, and it's time. Well, you know, one of the things you've said that really resonates with me, because I kind of stumbled onto it myself, that really seems to work is this idea of when your willpower is waning, to force yourself to just wait five minutes. You know, don't eat the donut now.

Starting point is 00:27:52 Tell yourself you can eat it in five minutes if you really want to. And I find that that's a pretty effective way to postponing it, because in five minutes you've had time to think about it, and you know what? Maybe you don't need it. But these are all really great suggestions. Kelly McGonigal has been my guest. She's a psychologist and lecturer at Stanford University and her book is called The Willpower Instinct, How Self-Control Works, Why It Matters, and What You Can Do to Get More of It. You'll find a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Kelly. Thanks, Mike. It's been a pleasure. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown.

Starting point is 00:28:32 I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts.

Starting point is 00:28:57 Hey everyone, join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our Lister poll results from But Am I Wrong. And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong?

Starting point is 00:29:28 on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Few things are as all-American as blue jeans. I'm sure you have a pair or two or three in your house somewhere. Everyone has worn blue jeans. So where did they come from? And what is denim anyway?

Starting point is 00:29:54 And how is it different from other fabrics? Why did blue jeans become so iconic and so associated with America, particularly the American West? Well, as you might imagine, there's a fascinating story here, and journalist James Sullivan explored and uncovered it for his book, Genes, A Cultural History of an American Icon. Hi, James. Welcome. So take us back to the beginning.

Starting point is 00:30:20 Where did blue jeans start and why and how did they catch on? How did it all begin? Well, Blue Jeans, the history is long and a little bit complex. Denim work clothes actually began in Europe 200 or 300 years ago. What we consider today to be the modern Blue Jean, the mass-produced, factory-produced Blue Jean, originated in 1873 with the Levi Strauss Company out of San Francisco. And the distinction is that the mass produced jeans that Levi's began making have the copper rivets. The copper rivets make the pants obviously more durable, they last longer. And at

Starting point is 00:30:58 the time that was done so that minors and other working class people would have durable work clothes. The rivets have since become part of the whole fashionability of jeans themselves. Everybody knows what denim looks like and feels like. I mean, you can spot it a mile away that that's denim. That's what jeans are made out of. But what is it and how is it different than other fabrics? Denim is a cotton twill material, but with the warp is dyed with indigo, although jeans have come in many different colors. And the cross thread is undyed,

Starting point is 00:31:33 which is one of the things that gives jeans their distinct look. The more the indigo abrades off of your jeans, in other words, when you wash them and wear them and the indigo starts to chip away, it exposes the undyed cross thread underneath, and that's where the fading comes from. That's where the distinct fading look comes from. So in denim, the threads going one way are colored, and the threads going the other way are not colored. They're white. So that's what makes denim denim. And so who is Levi Strauss? Was he a real guy? Levi Strauss is a real guy, sure. Levi was a wholesaler in San Francisco beginning in the 1850s

Starting point is 00:32:14 when San Francisco was a boom town because of the California gold rush. And he was selling all kinds of household goods, materials, including denim, to retailers. And the idea of blue jeans, he was selling something like an early version of jeans, among the many other things that he was selling for the first two decades of his existence as a businessman in San Francisco. He was approached in the early 1870s by a small-time tailor in Nevada who had come up with the idea of adding the copper rivets to make the pants more durable for his customers.

Starting point is 00:32:52 And this guy, his name was Jacob Davis, had been buying denim material from Levi Strauss for a number of years. And he approached his supplier and said, if you can help me come up with the cost for the patent application, we can split it. And Jacob Davis his supplier and said, if you can help me come up with the cost for the patent application, we can split it. And Jacob Davis eventually went to work for Levi and ran the first factory that produced the first Levi's jeans. So the original appeal of blue jeans was the durability, nothing else. It wasn't fashion. It wasn't cool color. It was just that they were very durable. You know, I like to say that for the first 75 to 100 years of their existence as we know them, I don't think anybody really thought twice about them other than the fact that you wanted them to be durable.

Starting point is 00:33:36 You know, you were probably wearing them, you were almost certainly wearing them for hard work. You were a farmer or a miner or someone building the railroads or a construction worker, cowboy. You were doing hard work and you weren't wearing them for the way they looked. It was only really in the 1940s, let's say, that jeans really started to become something like a fashion item. And how did that happen? Well, in the early years, the 30s and 40s, one of the first ways that the general mainstream of America came to understand what blue jeans were was by seeing them in movies, in Western movies. The earliest cowboy heroes in the movies were sort of dandies. They wore a lot of fringe and fussy-looking cowboy clothing. grew up, the John Waynes and men of his era started wearing blue jeans that they felt were

Starting point is 00:34:27 a little more of an authentic farmer or cowboy look, which were dustier and sort of more rugged looking. Students and young people in the 30s and 40s began wearing them in part because they wanted to emulate their heroes from Western films, and also in part because they wanted to show college students, for instance, wanted to show solidarity with the working class. So artists, college students, and young people really didn't start wearing jeans as casual wear until the 30s and 40s. What is it about Levi's that makes them so iconic, and they seem to win the battle every time other gene manufacturers show up, you know, they've carved out a niche. But Levi's is still, in many minds, blue jeans. Levi's is blue jeans. Well, they clearly have created a company that's had astounding durability,

Starting point is 00:35:20 just like the product itself. I mean, they did essentially invent the modern blue gene in 1873, so that's a long time. And the company was actually a regional company, mostly recognized on the West Coast until 50 or 60 years ago. There was a time, it's hard to understand it now, but there was a long period of time where there were other genes manufacturers that were better known on the East Coast than Levi's. But one of the things that the company was great at, has always been great at, is marketing itself. more quickly than any of their rivals, that you could market these things not only to working men and women, but also to young people as their own kind of leisure wear. And so Levi was really sort of instrumental in establishing that. It does seem that a lot of jean companies have come and gone, but

Starting point is 00:36:18 who would you say are Levi's, historically have been Levi's biggest competitors in the blue jean business? Well, historically, it's always been Lee and since the 40s, Wrangler. Wrangler was founded in, the Wrangler that we know today was founded in 1947. Historically, it's always been those two companies, although pretty clearly in the last handful, you know, there's been cycles in jean's history where various trendy designers have gotten a lot of attention, and clearly in the last handful of years, that don't quite put up the same numbers that Levi's does, but that have been grabbing the lion's share of the attention for the product. But historically, it's Wrangler and Lee.

Starting point is 00:36:57 And certainly over the years, there have been different styles of jeans. You know, there's the button fly and the zipper fly and the extra pockets and a lot of different styles of blue jeans. Jeans were button fly until the 20s when the Lee company actually introduced the zipper. One of the interesting things that I found in researching my book and talking to many different people who've been in the industry for a long time is that we tend to think of jeans in stark terms going from the sort of rock and roll 50s look of Levi's and the other companies or the cowboy look,

Starting point is 00:37:31 and then suddenly in the late 70s and early 80s going to the designer jeans of the disco era, Calvin Klein and Gloria Vanderbilt and Guess Jeans and Jordache and all of those brands, when the fact of the matter is that from the mid-60s or so, jeans manufacturers had been finding many different ways to stylize jeans, to make them something other than the classic, as I said, rock and roll or cowboy look that we think of as sort of the old-fashioned looking jean. In the 60s, kids started wearing their jeans lower on the hip. They started wearing much more flared bell-bottoms. They started toying with the finishes, the washes, pre-washing the jeans to sell them with a pre-faded look

Starting point is 00:38:17 and bleaching them and other methods of altering the appearance of the garment before it even hit the shelves. So many different things were done to jeans before that designer jeans era that were intended to sort of stylize them, upscale them. So James, here's a question. Remember stonewashed jeans? I had several pairs of stonewashed jeans back in the 80s or whenever they were popular. What does that term mean? What are stone washed jeans? Stone washed literally means washed in washing machines with pumice stone.

Starting point is 00:38:54 There's a fun tale that I retell in my book about John Wayne. He did something that a lot of people did back in his day. The jeans were never pre-washed in his day, and so they came pretty stiff, and you wanted to break them in before you started wearing them, and a lot of people sort of started to realize that you could, people would lie down in a bathtub with them on for an hour or two so that they would shrink to form fit the body. And one of the things that John Wayne did was he, every time he was going to go on a new

Starting point is 00:39:26 film set, he would take his family on a vacation beforehand, and he would have his new pair of jeans that he was going to wear on the film set. And his family, in a sort of a ritual, would bundle the jeans up with rocks, tie them up, and toss them off a pier into the Pacific Ocean and leave them for a couple of days until the vacation was over with. And then when, tie them up, and toss them off a pier into the Pacific Ocean and leave them for a couple of days until the vacation was over with. And then when he dragged them out, they had been broken down and softened by the stone, by the combination of the stone and the water. Wow, I've never heard that story before. That's pretty interesting that John Wayne would tie up his jeans and throw them off a pier. But as you point out, I mean, they weren't pre-washed,

Starting point is 00:40:07 probably pretty stiff and uncomfortable. So he probably wasn't the only one to do something like that to soften them up. There's a well-known Hollywood designer, costume designer, who did real stylish Western suits called Nudy Cohen, Nudiesies the company that made all of those um very stylized fringy western suits i did stuff for elvis and lots of country singers and in the early 70s before any of the major jeans manufacturers stone began stone washing their jeans on a mass production scale nudie was another designer who did the same thing. He took industrial-strength washers and tossed his jeans into the washers with stone and tossed them that way. From all accounts, I'm told the process is hell on the washing machines. Yeah, I would think so. And you probably end up with some very

Starting point is 00:40:58 clean stones. You talk about the prices people have paid for vintage jeans. It's pretty amazing. Talk about that. Like a lot of other collectible artifacts, you know, jeans have, one of the neat things about them is that they've been such a huge part of American culture for so many years that at this point, a pair of 100-year-old jeans, if it's in decent shape, is worth a lot to someone out there. One of the interesting things about that is the idea of globalization. I mean, one of the main products of selling Western culture to the rest of the world has been blue jeans over the years.

Starting point is 00:41:34 Other cultures have historically loved the idea of blue jeans and what it says about American culture. And so in the 1980s, the japanese were going through their huge economic boom and uh... looking for places to spend their money essentially and one of the way that they did one of the places that they did that was on vintage american clothing and uh... not just genes but bomber jackets and uh... hawaiian shirts certain looks that dated uh... to the world war II era actually were huge in Japanese culture.

Starting point is 00:42:06 And so collectors there started paying crazy amounts of money for vintage blue jeans. The collectibles market has kind of gone up and down a little bit since then, but Levi Strauss, for instance, has a world-class archive of its own products, and they have been known to pay huge sums for jeans that have been newly discovered that date back to 100 years or so. In a lot of cases, they're called miner's pants because the jeans will be found in the mines of Nevada and the West. They were used in a lot of cases when they started to wear out, they would be used to fill cracks to keep the insides of the cave sites intact. And excavators have found fairly good examples of old jeans socked away in the cracks of old mines in the West.

Starting point is 00:42:56 And if you were to look at a pair of those old jeans from way back when they were miners' pants, if you were to look at them and feel them, I mean, would they feel like jeans? Or has the fabric and everything about jeans, have they evolved to such a point that you wouldn't recognize them? They essentially look and feel like jeans, which is one of the amazing things about jeans. I mean, over the generations, each successive generation

Starting point is 00:43:21 for the last 50 or 60 years has initiated various kinds of twists on the product to make it their own, whether we're talking about the extreme wide bell-bottoms of the hippie era or the extreme baggy pants of the hip-hop era in the 90s. But essentially, it's always remained the same garment. And if you saw a pair of jeans from the 1890s, you would absolutely recognize it as something very similar to what we wear today. So why do we call them jeans? Do you know where the word jeans comes from? I do. The word jeans comes from Genoa, Italy, which was a major shipping port in the Middle Ages. And the French called the Genoans the Gênes. And one of the things that they made in Genoa was sort of a precursor to denim material, which was known as jean cloth.

Starting point is 00:44:12 So that's where that name comes from. The term denim comes from a French industrial town called Nîmes. That product was known for hundreds of years as Serge de Nîmes, which is shortened to denim. Both jean cloth and denim were made in mass quantities in industrial England and then brought over to America. And denim is more durable than jean cloth. And at some point in the last 150 years or so, the two terms sort of became interchangeable with one another. The product is now made specifically with denim, not jean cloth, but we, a long time ago, sort of conflated the two terms and started calling denim pants jeans. And I remember growing up, we called them

Starting point is 00:44:57 dungarees. So where does that term come from? That actually comes from a town called Dungaree in India, which is another part of the globe that several hundred years ago was already mass producing a durable cotton cloth used for work clothes. Well, it is interesting how jeans have become such an important part of fashion throughout so many different decades and throughout so many different fashion changes, and yet jeans are a staple in all of them from the 50s on up. So what do you think the future of jeans is? Well, I think that, excuse me, at this point it's fairly safe to say that it's not going anywhere. I mean, over the last handful of decades, we've seen fashion commentators make the case periodically

Starting point is 00:45:50 that maybe Americans are getting tired of their blue jeans and want something else. But they always tend to come back around. I mean, they're durable, but not only is each individual pair durable, but the idea of blue jeans has proved to be extremely durable. Sure has, and it's such a great story that pretty much we've all been a part of. My guest has been James Sullivan.

Starting point is 00:46:13 He's a journalist, and his book is called Jeans, A Cultural History of an American Icon. There's a link to his book in the show notes. A couple of times over the course of this podcast, we've talked about germy things. Things like hotel TV remotes and bedspreads and telephones and refrigerator handles on your fridge in the kitchen, those kind of things. Well, someone's come up with some new things we need to be concerned about. For example, credit and debit cards. They are covered in germs. They slide into and through lots of filthy spots, and they can safely be cleaned with a disinfectant wipe.

Starting point is 00:46:54 You just need to make sure that they're completely dry before you put them away. Electronics, phones and tablets, they're crawling with germs. You should check your owner's manual for cleaning recommendations because disinfectant wipes can damage some touchscreens on some phones and tablets. The back of your rugs. When you vacuum, you might want to flip over those throw rugs and vacuum the underside, which you've probably never done before. Toilet roll holders.

Starting point is 00:47:25 Every time you switch rolls of toilet paper, you should probably give that holder a shot of disinfectant. And salt and pepper shakers. They are often the filthiest thing on the table with the highest concentration of cold and flu viruses. So wipe those down once in a while. And that is something you should know. Anytime you have a question or a comment or just want to say hi, you can always write to me. There is a contact

Starting point is 00:47:51 form on our website, or you can write to me at mike at somethingyoushouldknow.net. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership

Starting point is 00:48:33 to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook.

Starting point is 00:48:47 Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Contained herein are the heresies of Rudolf Buntwine, erstwhile monk turned traveling medical investigator. Join me as I study the secrets of the divine plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth that ours is not a loving God and we are not its favored children. The heresies of Redolph Buntwine, wherever podcasts are available.

Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: Secrets of Self-Control & The Fascinating History of Blue Jeans

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