Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: The Psychology of Secrets & How to Get Quicker Answers to Emails and Texts

Episode Date: June 24, 2023

Before the mid 60s, a can of beer on a hot summer day was worthless without a can opener. Then along came the pop-top can. This episode begins with the interesting story of how the pop-top can changed... our world.  https://ohiohistorycentral.org/w/Ermal_Fraze No doubt, you have a secret. Everyone has a secret – perhaps more than one. The problem is that carrying around secrets can cause real harm according to Michael Slepian, one of the leading researchers on the psychology of secrets and a professor at Columbia Business School. Listen as Michael reveals how to lessen the burden of keeping secrets and tells you how to feel better for having them. Michael’s website is http://www.keepingsecrets.org/ We have probably all sent a text or email and when the expected response didn’t come right away, we start to wonder why. Maybe you said something you shouldn’t have. Maybe something terrible happened to the person you texted. Maybe your boss didn’t respond because he plans to fire you soon. Why do we think the worst just because someone doesn’t reply as quickly as we like? Listen to my guest Sam George, a digital marketing expert and author of the book I’ll Get Back to You: The Dyscommunication Crisis: Why Unreturned Messages Drive Us Crazy and What to Do About It (https://amzn.to/2Uof14w). Sam explains why those thoughts are irrational and how to get people to respond to email and texts faster so you aren’t left wondering. Do you have loose items sitting in the back of your car like toys, shoes, pens or maybe even your laptop? Having those kinds of loose items in your car can be a real safety hazard. Listen as I explain the problem and how to fix it so people don’t get hurt. https://www.consumerreports.org/content/cro/en/health/pack-your-car-safely.print.html PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! Zocdoc is the only FREE app that lets you find AND book doctors who are patient-reviewed, take your insurance, are available when you need them and treat almost every condition under the sun! Go to https://Zocdoc.com/SYSK and download the Zocdoc app for FREE. Indeed is the hiring platform where you can Attract, Interview, and Hire all in one place! Start hiring NOW with a $75 SPONSORED JOB CREDIT to upgrade your job post at https://Indeed.com/SOMETHING Offer good for a limited time. Keep American farming going by signing up at https://MoinkBox.com/SYSK  RIGHT NOW and listeners of this show get FREE filet mignon for a year! Now your ideas don’t have to wait. Dell Technologies and Intel are creating technology that loves ideas, expanding your business & evolving your passions. Find out how to bring your ideas to life at https://Dell.com/welcometonow ! Let’s find “us” again by putting our phones down for five.  Five days, five hours, even five minutes. Join U.S. Cellular in the Phones Down For Five challenge! Find out more at https://USCellular.com/findus If you own a small business, you know the value of time. Innovation Refunds does too! They've made it easy to apply for the employee retention credit or ERC by going to https://getrefunds.com to see if your business qualifies in less than 8 minutes! Innovation Refunds has helped small businesses collect over $3 billion in payroll tax refunds! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Starting point is 00:00:00 The search for truth never ends. Introducing June's Journey, a hidden object mobile game with a captivating story. Connect with friends, explore the roaring 20s, and enjoy thrilling activities and challenges while supporting environmental causes. After seven years, the adventure continues with our immersive travels feature. Explore distant cultures and engage in exciting experiences. There's always something new to discover. Are you ready?
Starting point is 00:00:27 Download June's Journey now on Android or iOS. Today on Something You Should Know. Before the mid-60s, there were no pop-top cans. I'll tell you how that changed. Then, secrets. Keeping dark secrets can be harmful. It's not the more we find ourselves having to hide the secret in conversation. It's the more we find ourselves repetitively thinking about
Starting point is 00:00:50 the secret time and time again. That's associated with feeling ashamed for your secret, feeling isolated with your secret and feeling inauthentic for having it. Also, something important you need to do with the stuff in the back of your car. And ever have that experience of someone not returning a text or email and you start to think, something's wrong, did I do something? First of all, to jump to the conclusion that something is wrong is irrational. To jump to the conclusion that it's about you is irrational. And then, almost always, we come up with a worst-case scenario. All this today on Something You Should Know.
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Starting point is 00:01:51 Connect with a credentialed therapist by phone, video, or online chat. Visit BetterHelp.com to learn more. That's BetterHelp.com. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, eyes and imagine it's a hot summer day. You're really thirsty and you reach for an ice cold can of soda or beer.
Starting point is 00:02:33 Well, if it was back before the mid-60s and you didn't have a can opener, you were out of luck. Today, of course, we have pop-top cans, but back then, no opener, no drink. In 1959, Ernie Fraze, I think it's Fraze, or maybe it's Frazee, F-R-A-Z-E. Anyway, Ernie Fraze was at a picnic with some friends and nobody brought a can opener. So he ended up using his car bumper
Starting point is 00:03:00 to somehow open the beverage cans. But that got him to thinking. Soon, he invented the first pop-top can. With his first version, you pulled the tab completely off the can and threw it away. He received a patent for it, and he sold that patent to the Alcoa Aluminum Company. Iron City Beer, made in Pittsburgh, was the first beverage to use the pop-top can in the mid-60s, and their sales soared. Soon after, other beverage companies began using it. Then in the mid-70s, outcry from environmentalists led to the development of the can top that we know today that uses non-removable tabs.
Starting point is 00:03:43 But if it weren't for Ernie Frey's, who knows how many hours of our lives we would have wasted looking for that can opener. By the way, Ernie died in 1989 at the age of 76 and left an estate worth 41 million dollars. And that is something you should know. I'm pretty sure that you are keeping a secret. Because everyone keeps secrets. Some secrets are pretty benign. Some secrets you keep because, well, they're nobody else's business. While other secrets you keep because you feel guilt or shame,
Starting point is 00:04:25 or fear that people would think less of you if they only knew. These are the kind of secrets that can feel like a burden. Then there are secrets that other people ask you to keep, and those kind of secrets can weigh heavy as well. There's some fascinating research going on about secrets and what keeping them does to us. And right in the thick of that research is Michael Slepian. He's a social psychologist and professor at Columbia Business School. Hi, Michael. Welcome to Something You Should Know. Thanks for having me.
Starting point is 00:04:53 So I read this quote from you in an article that I thought was really interesting and the reason I wanted to discuss this topic with you on the podcast. You're quoted as saying, It's not how much you hide a secret that's harmful, but how often you find yourself thinking about it. So let's start there. Explain what you mean by that. When we think about secrecy and when we think about what a secret is, a lot of people naturally imagine two people in a room, one person hiding the secret from the other person because they're talking about something related to the secret. For a very long time, decades, psychologists assumed that's why
Starting point is 00:05:30 our secrets hurt us because hiding things in conversation is stressful and that's bad for our well-being. But it turns out that that's actually a pretty rare experience. How many times have you had the experience where someone's asking you about your secret? We find it just doesn't happen all that often. The much more common experience we have with our secrets is simply thinking about them in our own heads. And this is where it turns out to be is the real harm. It's not the more we find ourselves having to hide the secret in conversation. It's the more we find ourselves repetitively thinking about the secret outside those conversations, which is associated with harm to well-being. Because why? What is thinking about a secret doing to you that's causing harm? Yeah. So first for hiding, you know, the whole point of the secret is to hide it when required,
Starting point is 00:06:19 right? So if it just so happens that you're in a conversation, you have to hide your secret. It's like, okay, you did a good job. You did exactly what you set out to do. That stress, if there is any, is very short-lived. But when you're on your own time, you have all the time in the world to think about your secret. And unfortunately, because it's something you've chosen to be alone with typically, you don't have the most healthy way of thinking about that thing. So we find that the more people find themselves mind wandering, their minds returning to the secret time and time again, that's associated with feeling ashamed for your secret, feeling isolated with your secret and
Starting point is 00:06:55 feeling inauthentic for having it. People often talk about that they have no secrets, let's say from their partner. We have no secrets. We're open with everybody. And maybe it's worth discussing the difference between keeping a secret and just being private. Do you make the differentiation? Yes, absolutely. And so a great way to distinguish those because there's some gray area in between
Starting point is 00:07:21 and they can even overlap. You could want wanna keep something back for both privacy and secrecy, but a great way to separate them is to ask, if this ever came up in conversation, would you wanna hide it? Or could you imagine a world where you'd be willing to discuss it if you were comfortable?
Starting point is 00:07:39 Take sex, for example. Sex is not something we tend to talk about as much as we think about it. But that's out of privacy. You have to feel comfortable talking about that kind of thing with someone. That's very different from having a specific sexual experience that you want nobody to know. Another good example is maybe you don't talk about family at work, but that's privacy. The fact that you have a family is not a secret. Why is secrecy often called, you know, keeping secrets is often thought of as a burden? Why?
Starting point is 00:08:11 Why is that? It's a good question. You know, we can imagine this alternate universe where secrecy is easy. And in fact, it's not hard to imagine this universe. First of all, we know people very rarely ask people about each other's secrets. We know it's pretty uncommon that you actually have to hide your secret. And when you do, we find most people feel pretty capable in hiding their secret in conversation, that it's not so hard.
Starting point is 00:08:37 And so despite all of that, secrecy is burdensome. And I think what it comes down to at the end of the day is to keep a secret is to be alone with something. And people tend to not want to be alone. We often tell people secrets, I guess, to what unburden ourselves to share a secret. And, you know, what's the saying that, you know, the only way two people can keep a secret is with one of them's dead. And yeah, I would say that primarily when people reveal secrets is because they don't want to be alone with that thought. They want to get some help with that thought. And when we choose to share a secret with someone, it's often someone well-chosen. We know which of our friends are
Starting point is 00:09:20 not judgmental and who will be kind and compassionate. We know who will sort of hear us out and who will say like, that sucks. I'm here for you. And because we choose our confidants carefully, the most common response to sharing a secret is a very helpful one. And it turns out you don't even need that much help. You just need a very small hint of help. And it often leads people feeling much better. What are the most common kinds of secrets people keep? I know you say that there are 38 categories, basically 38 categories of secrets.
Starting point is 00:09:51 What are the most common? So the most common among those 38 categories we use so frequently in our research include things like lies we've told or violating someone's trust, sex is up there in various forms, dissatisfaction with certain relationships or work. Other common ones include things like drug use and a secret belief or a secret ambition or a secret preference or some personal story that you hold back from other
Starting point is 00:10:18 people. And isn't it interesting that the word secret has somewhat of a, I don't know if a negative connotation is the right thing, but there's something a little bit naughty about it. You're keeping a secret because of some kind of reason that you shouldn't almost. Yeah. Most of our secrets are indeed negative in the way that you mentioned, which is why the common responses to having a secret include things like guilt and shame and feeling inauthentic. But secrets don't have to be negative. There are instances where they're not negative
Starting point is 00:10:54 or they're very neutral, but you're right. They often tend to be negative for the very reason that you've chosen. This is something I am not sure people should know or I don't want people to know because that's such a common motivation for secrecy. They do tend to be associated with this sort of negative feeling you're describing. Well, do you consider things like, you know, secret ambitions and desires, are those secrets? Because they're really just thoughts about maybe in the future. They're not
Starting point is 00:11:20 things you did. This is, I can give you one more example. So I do think there's secrets. Another really good example of just a thought that is secret. In fact, this is the most common secret that people tell no one about. And that's what we call extra relational thoughts. You're in a relationship, and you have some kind of romantic relational thought about another person. And that's just a thought. But people say it's something they hold back. It's something they don't share with other people. It's something they keep secret. Well, to me, the reason you would keep that secret, there is no benefit to anybody of not keeping that secret. To tell people that you're having lustful thoughts about someone else serves no one. So why tell? Yeah. And so it's good to know if other of your secrets fit that
Starting point is 00:12:13 category or if you're holding a secret that doesn't fit that category. That's a signal that maybe you could let go of that one or share that one. What about when you're keeping other people's secrets? When people confide in you and say, you know, don't tell anybody, but just... So you're right, that's very common. And we've studied that phenomenon. And so there's both good and bad that comes from that. We'll start with the good first. When people trust us to share a sensitive secret with us, we recognize that as an act of intimacy. It can make people feel closer with each other. But now that you have been confided this secret, now it's a secret that you might have to hide on the other person's behalf. We find, especially if social
Starting point is 00:12:57 networks overlap, you're in a pretty difficult situation because now you're holding onto the secret that other people may not know that you see regularly who are potentially involved or would want to know. And so while being confided in is taken as this act of intimacy, we can also become burdened with other people's secrets as well. I imagine that most of us, well, probably everybody take some secrets to their grave. And is there a price to pay for that? Or at some point, do you make peace with your secrets and you don't dwell on them and you don't think about them? They are what they are. They happened the way they happened. They're in the past and you get to move on and nobody needs to know. You're asking the hard question.
Starting point is 00:13:41 There were certainly some secrets that perhaps we have done the calculus wrong. And actually, it would be better to get that off your chest and be better to give that information. I think you're totally right that people will sometimes take secrets to their grave. I've had people share stories with me about finding out a secret that someone took to the grave. And for that person, sometimes it's like, oh, I wish they felt comfortable enough telling me. And now we can never do that. And so I think it's a good practice to think about the secrets you have and to question yourself. Is this really the right thing? Should this really be kept secret from this person? Sometimes the right thing to do is to reveal it.
Starting point is 00:14:28 And if you're not sure, a really great thing to do is to talk to someone totally removed from the situation. It's really hard to figure these things out on your own and you don't have to. We're talking about secrecy and the pros and cons of keeping secrets. My guest is Michael Slepian. He is a social psychologist and professor at Columbia Business School.
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Starting point is 00:15:54 discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker, John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts so michael there are people who you might describe as secretive that that keep everything very close to the vest and then there are other people who tell everybody everything and is there any reason to believe that the open book kind of people are healthier happier or or not so what's tricky about that question is this idea that secrecy is just one
Starting point is 00:16:48 thing. And so, you know, especially when we think about it with the old way of thinking about it, you know, the hard part about secrets is hiding them. You should definitely think that someone who's keeping more secrets should be worse off, but it really matters what they're keeping secret. It could be just really trivial things that other people like to share for fodder for conversation that people choose to hold back themselves. But if you're holding back something that you're struggling with, now it's a very different story. Even if it's just one thing, if it's really troubling, it could be really harmful to hold it back. And is that struggle? Is that what makes secrets difficult? Because you come back and you think
Starting point is 00:17:31 about them and you rehash them and struggle with them? Or because can you have a deep, dark and somewhat disturbing secret, but if you somehow make peace with it and leave it alone, then are you okay? Yeah, I think so. I think, yes, to both things you said, you know, it is primarily the harm is struggling alone with something. Because if you're alone with something, it's pretty much guaranteed that you're not, you haven't found the very best way to think about that, because that's really hard to do without other people, without another perspective or a fresh set of eyes and ears on the problem. But if you really have found a way to make peace with the secret on your own, if that's really the case, yeah, you should be fine. It's just often hard to do that on your own. It seems to me that time has the ability to soften
Starting point is 00:18:25 difficult memories. But when something's a secret and that you're not able to kind of get it out because you're keeping it secret, do secrets soften with time? Do people think about them differently? Is time good to secrets? I do think over time, people think about these things in different ways, typically in the more helpful direction. You know, the farther this thing is in your past and the less relevant it is for today, I think it is easier to put the thought down and it is easier to sort of make peace with it. There has to be some comfort in numbers, I guess. You said, and you've been quoted in this article I was reading, that 97% of people have secrets in these 38 categories you
Starting point is 00:19:13 mentioned. Basically, everybody has some deep, dark secret. And knowing that maybe makes it a little easier to carry your own secret. Yeah, and I think that recognition alone can sometimes be really helpful when people feel utterly alone with something to recognize, actually, this is a pretty common experience. The problem is people don't talk about it. Given that this is such a universal experience, that everybody has secrets and keeps secrets from other people, what do we do with this information? What do we,
Starting point is 00:19:46 knowing what you've been telling us for the last 15 minutes, so now what? What do we do with this? So I think the very first thing to do is take a look at your secrets and remind yourself, what are those secrets you're keeping? You know, there's some that you have top of mind today, and there's some that you haven't thought about in, say, a year. The way we help people do this is we give them this list of 38 common categories of secrets that people keep. And we know that list is pretty comprehensive because the average person has at least 97% of people we see have at least one of the secrets from the list at this current moment. We see the average person at any given moment has 13 secrets from that list of 38 categories. And if we just ask people sort of open-ended, what's the secret you're keeping?
Starting point is 00:20:38 92% of the time, it fits one of those categories. And so these really well represent the kinds of things people keep secret. And we see pretty commonly someone will say, oh, wow, I haven't thought about that secret in a while. And just thinking about your secrets, kind of scrutinizing them. It seems that in keeping a secret, the best you can hope for is you keep a secret. That way people don't find out this thing that bothers you, that you would feel bad if they knew. And that's about the best you can hope for in keeping a secret. Or is there some other silver lining to secrets that we haven't talked about? You know, we think of our secrets as this thing, this sort of terrible thing that brings us down. But each secret has this real source of power. Sharing it with someone is a really intimate act and it can really bring people together.
Starting point is 00:21:26 There's this other power that you can use them for for good. Depending on the secret, I imagine. Of course. And depending on who you're telling, I imagine. Absolutely. We find that people are looking for certain things, certain qualities in their confidants. One of the things they're looking for most is compassion, someone who will be non-judgmental and express empathy and caring and support. And maybe they don't even have any advice. They just say, that sucks, or I hear you. And that might be all you need.
Starting point is 00:21:57 Another thing people are sometimes looking for is assertiveness, someone who will push you to do something. And we find those are the two things people are looking for in their confidence. What people don't want in their confidence, people tend to confide less in people who are polite and concerned with rules. And people also confide less in people who are very socially outgoing. I think you can expect why. When someone shares a secret with the hopes of unburdening themselves, of feeling better because they kind of got it out, does it actually do that? Do people tend to feel better when they unburden themselves of their secrets? And if so, how long does that last?
Starting point is 00:22:41 So it can feel great in the moment. And that's meaningful on its own. Sometimes revealing a secret anonymously online feels great in the moment. But for that to last, typically for that to last, you are hoping for some kind of response. And so this is, you know, the risk with just revealing a secret. And if you don't get that sort of positive response back, you sort of didn't, you didn't get the second half of what normally comes when we share secrets with other people, feeling relieved to get it off our chest and getting help. And so it lasts much longer if you get some kind of help.
Starting point is 00:23:21 And it doesn't have to be a lot. It could be a new perspective. It could be some advice. It could be the person saying, I'm here for you. That's what will make it last longer. The benefits is getting something back from the person you're sharing it with. When you look at the way people handle secrets, do you see gender differences? Do men do this differently than women? The only notable gender difference we see in this data is that women seem to confide their secrets more often in others, whereas men are more likely to keep a secret entirely to themselves.
Starting point is 00:23:56 And I think that matches well what we know about gender roles and social roles and how, you know, we might have a stereotype about what, you know, we might have a stereotype that sharing something makes you vulnerable and it's sort of this emotional act and, you know, I'm sure there are men out there who associate that not with masculinity and that might be why we see that. The way we keep secrets and reveal secrets and keep other people's secrets, is this a human thing or does it vary culture by culture or what? We're doing this research right at this moment and so the results are still coming in but I can tell you that there are a lot of similarities in how secrets
Starting point is 00:24:45 affect people. And these cultural differences that we're just beginning to find, I would say, are more at the edges than in the sort of front and center. It means, though, that a lot of this research we're coming out with and giving people advice about secrets, it seems to be more universally helpful than not. Well, this is a topic that I think affects everyone. And I know you said that there were those 38 categories of secrets that people keep. And you have a website where people can go and explore those categories. And what is that website? Yeah. So if people go to keepingsecrets.org, that'll take you right to the survey where you can see those 38 categories of secrets.
Starting point is 00:25:25 And if you want, you can sort of add yourself to our growing large data set. Once you're on that page, you can explore these 38 categories of secrets and which ones are more common across certain age groups or certain genders. And you can sort of play with the data. And we allow people to do that at that website. What I think is so interesting is that people are keeping secrets in hopes that nobody finds out about their secret. And it can be a very lonely feeling thinking you're the only one with this secret, not realizing that everybody else is doing exactly the same thing.
Starting point is 00:26:02 Michael Slepian has been my guest. He is a social psychologist and professor at Columbia Business School. And that website he mentioned, keepingsecrets.org, there'll be a link to that in the show notes. Thanks for coming on, Michael. This has been really fun.
Starting point is 00:26:18 Thank you. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman
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Starting point is 00:27:17 more informed critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Today, like never before, you can pretty much get a hold of anybody in your life or at work anytime you want,
Starting point is 00:28:11 as long as you have their phone number or email address. And even if they don't pick up the phone or answer your text or email right away, they'll get back to you fairly quickly. You hope. But what if they don't? What if time passes and you start to figure you should have heard from them by now and now you start to think, well, why aren't they calling me back? Is something wrong? Are they mad?
Starting point is 00:28:36 Did they have an accident? You actually have no idea why they're not calling you back but your mind starts to fill the void with possible reasons. And it can really drive you nuts. This is a fairly universal problem that causes stress and concern in a lot of people. And here with some interesting insight into the problem is Sam George. He's author of a book called I'll Get Back to You, The Discommunication Crisis, Why Unreturned Messages Drive Us Crazy, and What to Do About It.
Starting point is 00:29:07 Hi, Sam. So let's dive right in here and start with text messages. How do you get someone to read and reply to a text message? What's the way to ensure that? Well, the first thing you need to do with both emails and text is use the person's first name. First names, the neuroscience is crazy about this. I mean, it's absolutely the biggest trigger, a positive trigger that we have is their first name, and then you use their first name throughout the at least two or three times in an email, and you know, kind of intermittently in a text conversation, because that's what keeps them tuned. But what will get them to pay attention to it is address them by their name. So that'll get them to read the text. But how do you get people to respond quickly? Because, you know, I've gotten texts and I don't respond because, you know, it's going to take too long. It's going to be a big explanation. And so I put it off or maybe I even forget. So
Starting point is 00:30:18 what's the way to get people to respond quickly? It's important to be clear, not on just what you're asking for. It's also important to be clear to try and create a limit situation. You know, yes, no, either, or. Because if you send, for example, a message to say, what do you think? That's not going anywhere. Or I need your feedback. That's not going anywhere. Or I need your feedback. That's not going anywhere. But if you pose these things as, do you agree or disagree? No, that's going to force a more clear response. So that's the key thing is you'd be very clear
Starting point is 00:31:00 about the question, but you frame the answer in terms of a yes, no, either, or, agree, disagree, what's known as a limit situation. Limit situations force action. Let's talk about email, because that's another way that we get in touch with people in hopes, usually, of a fairly quick response. How do you make sure that you get a quick response? There are ways to, you have to get this. There's two things you have to do. First, with emails, you have to get them to open the email. People are very busy. And I know from, because I do a lot of digital fundraising and digital marketing. The key is the subject line. So you can't use an obvious subject line. You have to come up with something different in order to get them to open
Starting point is 00:31:53 it up. So that's the first step. You have to create curiosity or something that's different. The worst thing you can do in the subject line is to put the subject. Because what that happens is that people will see that and they'll file it. And the problem is they forget. That's the problem of why people don't return these messages or overly delayed. They get filed. Yeah. Yeah. Because I know what you mean, because I've gotten emails, and in the subject line, it'll say, you know, Thursday's meeting or dinner Wednesday. And when I see that in the subject line, I kind of already know what the email is about. So I don't need to open it, so I don't. And then I may not come back to it, because it was just a subject line,
Starting point is 00:32:42 so it didn't really register. So if I don't come back to it and read it, and then I don't respond. So if you don't get them to open it on the spot, your chances dropped substantially of them ever returning the message. So if they open the message on the spot, they're likely to return on the spot. And the only way you can do that is the subject line. It doesn't matter what's in the email, whether someone opens an email or not has to do with the subject line. And the worst thing you can do is use a predictable subject line. You know, you can use things that are funny. You can come up with other things that create curiosity. There's certain buzzwords you can use like thank you, things like that, that will get them to open it up. You know, you could
Starting point is 00:33:32 Google subject lines. They're all, they don't have to be real crazy or, or a tactic that I use is I just leave the subject line open a lot of times. And, and, you know, people open it because there's no subject line. And the worst thing you can do is put a subject that's about the subject. If you're the sender of the message because you're trying to get a hold of somebody or you're trying to get some information or some sort of reply and you don't get it and you start to do that thing where you wonder, are they mad at me? What's wrong? Am I getting fired? Whatever it is.
Starting point is 00:34:07 How do you manage your own expectations of that so your mind doesn't start to do that? We can't, Mike. You know that. You probably tried. What's going on here is known as pattern recognition. The brain has to complete patterns and store patterns. That's how it processes information. So an unreturned message is a loop to be, you know, is a pattern that needs to be completed. And it's actually the brain, subconsciously, the brain that forces us into the worst case scenario. And this is true in other areas. For example,
Starting point is 00:34:48 if someone is late, something terrible happened, an accident, quickly, boom, out of the gate. So again, there's an unresolved situation, which is a broken loop. The pattern has not been completed. And we go to a worst case scenario. Why a worst case scenario? Well, worst case scenario provides a firm ending. A story or narrative has to have an ending in order to be a narrative. And so it's actually the brain's pattern recognition process. But for that same reason, that's why, because of completing the loop, that's why if you get them to open the email on the spot, you have a very good chance of them responding on the spot because they want to close the loop. And when people don't respond and you feel like you should reach out again, what's your sense? When do you do that?
Starting point is 00:35:47 When do you restrain yourself? What do you say if you do that kind of thing? That's the second piece. That's another piece of the strategy is that you'd be surprised how many people don't follow up because they feel that it's awkward or they'll piss them off, et cetera, you should definitely follow up within 24 hours. But in your follow-up, don't put them on the defensive. Like, don't forward them the email. Did you get my email? Basically, rewrite the email, reformat it, put a new subject line on it, and essentially make the same points. And if you can say I'm following up, that's fine. But there's no need to reference the previous message. You know, you can do that if you want, but it's not necessary. As I said in my previous email,
Starting point is 00:36:41 it doesn't matter that you send a past message. It matters that they get this message and that they read it. What about a text message, though? If you send another text message that says the same thing, they're going to see these two messages back to back that say the same thing. Well, I think you have to try a different approach with the text message. What I suggest is that you come into that person and send them a text about a different issue, okay, to see if they'll open that. It doesn't have to be on that issue. Typically, for example, with clients and people, a lot of times I'll just send FYI articles to them or messages when I need to prod them to respond. So that's the best thing you can do in text messages.
Starting point is 00:37:32 But the worst thing to do, again, if you is there's almost always these texts are open ended. That's the last thing you should do. If you're looking for a reaction, it should be what do you think? Again, yes, no, agree, disagree. So use their first name, tell them what the question is very specifically, and then three, frame it in a yes, no situation. I imagine everyone has had the experience of not getting a message returned, either a text or an email or a phone call. And after a while, you start to imagine all kinds of things. They're mad, they're upset, it's about you, or something horrible has gone wrong.
Starting point is 00:38:35 And I know you said you've done polling and that it's like 85% of the time when people do that, the story they make up is incorrect, at least 85% of the time when people do that, the story they make up is incorrect, at least 85 percent of the time. And yet we do. And usually we think that has something to do with us. First of all, to jump to the conclusion that something is wrong is irrational. To jump to the conclusion that it's about you is irrational. And then almost always we come up with a worst case scenario. And at that point, we catastrophize and it forms a negative loop that repeats, Mike. I mean, you've probably experienced that. This is not a one-shot feeling. It does seem though, you know, listening to you that we're all in the same boat and there is some comfort in that, that, you know, that it isn't just you, it isn't just me. It's every, everybody gets that anxiety and there is some comfort in numbers. Very few people talk about this. And I, that's what's what the purpose of this book is to get people to realize
Starting point is 00:39:48 that we all go through this and that it's not us. I mean, that it's actually our brain that's creating this situation, that we're not insecure, that we don't have low self-esteem, that we're actually, it's our brain, it's a cognitive glitch. You know, what created this whole situation, the shift from a direct feedback loop in about 1990 to this situation where emails and texts are predominant is arguably the biggest shift in human communication, even the printing press. That's all we've ever known in terms of conversations is direct feedback. Go to a meeting or have a conversation with a friend. You go up for coffee.
Starting point is 00:40:38 You feel good. You feel good after a conversation. You feel that you've been heard. You've been understood. Questions have been answered, and you have full understanding. But with this open, broken loop of digital, you never know where you stand. There's a constant anxiety and buzz and concern over the emails that we've sent and what's going on with them. What did they think? Will they get back to me? But really the biggest anxiety is over
Starting point is 00:41:14 will they be misunderstood? And it's quite easy to misunderstand people because people are not communicating clearly. So what's created this situation is the move from instant feedback to fragmented, diluted. I mean, the feedback's all over the place. I mean, there is no direct feedback loop. That is the backbone of communication for all of history till 1990. And that backbone is so important because it creates a solid foundation for communication and relationships. And this unstable form of texts and emails, instability creates instability in our relationships and misunderstandings all the time. I text for some things, simple things, you know,
Starting point is 00:42:14 what do you need me to get at the store kind of things. But I would rather, if I really need information from you, I would rather talk to you face-to-face or on the phone or even maybe an email. But texting seems to me to be the one that is most likely to cause misinterpretation and miscommunication. I integrate everything through my email. So I will set up calls through my email. So there's not that uncertainty of waiting for voice messages because that can create similar sorts of anxieties. But absolutely, text is not a very productive or secure way of communicating with people. It's just become so widely acceptable. I don't think we're going to get out of it.
Starting point is 00:43:07 I prohibit it. Basically, all the people that I deal with, I say, we're either going to do it by phone or by email. With email, you can actually create a narrative. When you write a text, you're not composing, you're reacting. And when you write an email, you you're composing so I suggest to use email over text and there's always that that possibility of misinterpreting someone's you know because there is no vocal inflection there's no facial expressions there's there's nothing and you could you someone might say sure in a text and you don't know if they're being sarcastic or if they're being honest. That's a good point, Mike. That's another component that there is. The ambiguity is also the disembodiment.
Starting point is 00:43:58 On a phone, you and I, for example, we may not be able to read body language, but the inflection of our voice is effectively body language. You know, I can tell, you can, I can tell through, you know, I mean, body language is overdone. I mean, essentially through voice inflection, as you know, in your business, you do lots of interviews, you can do everything you can by voice inflection that you can for body language, you know, within reason. So let's quickly review the advice here, because we want to be able to send a text, we want to be able to send an email and get a response fairly quickly. So we don't do that thing where, what's wrong? Oh, they must be mad at me. I don't know why they're not responding. So in order to ensure
Starting point is 00:44:45 that that quick response comes quickly, what's the advice? As best as you can, with emails and text, make sure you try and get them to open it right away through the subject line, or in the case of the text, always begin with their first name, use their first name as many times as you can. And then in terms of what you, it's got to be a very specific question that demands a response. And then you need to set that response. Now you can't say yes, no to but with that kind of an either or yes, no, because that's what's known as a limit situation. When people have limit situations, it forces them to respond.
Starting point is 00:45:34 Those are the things, you know, it's the subject line and the first names that are most important. Believe me, I have about two dozen other things, but essentially it's that basic. Provide content and essentially pose a question and ask for a concrete answer that's in a yes, no, either or limit situation, not an open-ended thing like, how are you doing? Or I need your feedback. Yeah, well, that's pretty easy to do. And if you're intentional about those, just those few things, you're much more likely to get the response you want. Sam George has been my guest. He is a digital marketing and fundraising expert, and he's author of the book, I'll Get Back to You, The Discommunication Crisis, Why Unreturned Messages Drive Us Crazy and What to
Starting point is 00:46:26 Do About It. And you'll find a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks for being here, Sam. Okay, Mike. Take care. Think for a moment, what's in the backseat of your car? Maybe a laptop or some toys, groceries. Well, the fact is, if you get in an accident, those items can become dangerous projectiles. In fact, if a driver breaks suddenly from 30 miles an hour, items in the back seat could hit the driver with the same force as if they had been dropped from a two-story building. A driver in British Columbia several years ago was killed when her laptop became a
Starting point is 00:47:06 projectile and hit her in the head during a crash. So the advice is, from Consumer Reports, to store your groceries and luggage in the trunk where they can't hurt anyone. If you have to store heavy items in the car, they should be stored as far forward as possible, preferably on the floor and as close to the center of the vehicle as possible. Box up little items and toys floating around the car that could become dangerous projectiles in a crash, and then secure that box somewhere safe. It's also smart to get rid of old soda cans and snack bags in your car that could lodge under the brake or gas pedal and really mess up your driving. And that is something you should know. I always like to ask that if you enjoyed listening to this episode that you share it. Tell someone you know
Starting point is 00:47:57 about it so they can enjoy it as well, and it helps us to grow our audience. I'm Micah Brothers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church
Starting point is 00:48:32 for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot,
Starting point is 00:48:47 and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook. Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining,
Starting point is 00:49:14 a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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