Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: The Secrets to Better Conversation & A Better Way to Meet Deadlines

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Starting point is 00:00:27 Download June's Journey now on Android or iOS. Today on Something You Should Know, a great way to handle all the decisions you have to make today. Then, how human conversation really works. And it's different than what most people believe. People build things like communication training and assessment Human conversation really works, and it's different than what most people believe. People build things like communication training and assessment based on good intentions and the kinds of things that people say constitute a good conversation. But actually, when you look at what people are really doing, it's something else.

Starting point is 00:00:59 Also, why talking to yourself out loud is such a great idea. And how to handle deadlines, especially if you tend to put things off to the last minute. People are productive at the last minute. I guess what I just reject is this notion that the only way to create that kind of pressure for yourself is to wait to the actual real last minute. I think there's ways to trick the mind into behaving that way, even when it's not the real final deadline. All this today on Something You Should Know. At Wealthsimple, we're built for whatever you're building. Built for Jane, who wants to break into the housing market. We're built for Ted, who's obsessed with what's happening in the global markets.

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Starting point is 00:02:26 faced with zillions of different choices from what to have for breakfast to what to watch on television, what toothpaste to buy. Interestingly, the human mind evolved in a world where choices were few and our brains just aren't that well equipped to ponder at length whether to buy Crest or Colgate. And doing so can drive you nuts and cause a lot of unhappiness. Our ancestors would be overwhelmed with all the choices we have today. The fact is that most of the choices we make don't really matter. What really matters is your commitment to the choice. In other words, make a choice and get on with your life. Don't fret over it and wonder how life might have been different if you had

Starting point is 00:03:11 chosen something else. You didn't. You chose this. It probably doesn't matter and you can't go back and change it anyway. So move on. And that is something you should know. As you might imagine, I find it really interesting to examine how people talk. After all, I interview a lot of people, and then I go back and I listen to what they say. And it's really interesting to listen to the different ways, the different styles of speaking. I mean, you speak your way through the day every day. You're a conversationalist, but you probably haven't spent a lot of time examining what makes good conversation

Starting point is 00:03:52 or how the way you talk affects other people. But in every conversation, there's a lot going on that people tend not to notice. So meet Elizabeth Stokoe. She is what you would call a conversation analyst. She's a social psychologist who has spent over 20 years collecting and analyzing real conversations, and the results of her work are in her book called Talk, The Science of Conversation. Hi, Elizabeth. Hi, Mike. Thanks for inviting me. So let's start with an example of one of the things people do in conversation that you've analyzed that is under the radar but turns out to be quite meaningful.

Starting point is 00:04:35 One of the things that is very systematic at the start of conversations with friends or people that you know a little bit, colleagues who are, you know, someone that you work with regularly, for instance, you'll start with, hi, how you doing? Fine, how are you? And you'll do that rapid reciprocal routine at the start of a conversation. And sometimes people think that those how are you's are kind of pointless filler talk that aren't really doing anything. And you're not meant to, you know, respond to a how are you with all of your woes. But actually what we see in real conversation when we look at that is that how do you convey to someone that something is urgent, for instance? So I've got a nice example of a mum calling home to her daughter and they don't do the how are you. She says, hi, I'm just phoning to check that you got in and switched the oven off. So they kind of dispense with the apparently pointless filler talk to make sure that the purpose of this interaction is clear from the start and we don't waste time on the how are you's.

Starting point is 00:05:35 Whereas when the how are you's are present, then it's generally conveying something about the likely nature of the upcoming conversation, which is that this is a no-problem catch-up kind of thing. So by saying, hi, how are you, you're telegraphing that, put down your guard, everything's fine. And you can even see at the start of conversations, people who are about to have an argument. So if, again, those how are you moments are dispensed with and people go straight into Mike, Liz, then you can see these two are about to have a huge argument because they didn't do the how are yous. Yeah, see, I've always been one of those people who thinks that the hi, how are yous are really a waste of time because nobody's

Starting point is 00:06:15 really that interested in how I'm doing. And if I really told them all my problems, they'd go, well, why did I ask in the first place? But really, we're just telegraphing. We're setting the stage for the conversation by the hi, how are you's. And I wonder how else we do that. How else do we set the stage for the conversation that we haven't really thought about before? I've done some research looking at salespeople talking to potential prospects, business to business cold calls. And there, of course, the people don't know each other at all. It's a first time call. And what you will often see is that the salesperson will initiate those, how are you today? And what doesn't happen

Starting point is 00:06:57 next is any reciprocation. So the potential client who's never spoken to this person before might say, good, thanks, after a short delay. But they don't say, how are you? Because they don't know who it is. So it's the difference between a salesperson trying to do those how are you's to build rapport or whatever it is that they're doing that for. And hearing that the person that they're talking to just responds to the how are you with a good thanks, but then doesn't say how are you back and just moves to business versus the salesperson that kind of labors the point. And I've got some quite painful examples where the salesperson isn't listening to the person that they're talking to.

Starting point is 00:07:36 And that what they're not hearing is the lack of reciprocation. So if you are going to build a good relationship right from the start with somebody, then it takes two, you want that reciprocation. So if you are going to build a good relationship right from the start with somebody, then it takes two. You want that reciprocation. And then what I sometimes see is that a conversation between a salesperson and an existing client, they skip the how we use. And you can see from the way just the opening moments unfold, that the client actually expects a little bit of mundane, how are you fine? How are you doing? And one thing that I showed and trained salespeople, which is a bit opposite to what we might think is stop building rapport. You can't build rapport and then have your business conversation. You need to have a really smooth, frictionless, purposeful business conversation. And then next time you have a bit of a relationship to build off. Yeah. See, I've always wondered why those cold call salespeople do that.

Starting point is 00:08:30 Where they, hi, how are you today? And because that instantly puts me on guard. I know exactly what's coming and I don't want it. I'm getting an unwelcome sales call even before I know, because it's even before he has said he's calling to sell me an extended warranty on my car or something. I've got another example, which can add to this a little bit further. And it's actually a call between, it's people calling the vet. So totally different organization, different world.

Starting point is 00:09:02 So people are phoning the vet about their unwell pet, or they're phoning about vaccinations for their job, you know, the jabs for their animals and so on. And sometimes the person, so the person might phone up and say, hi, I just want to find out how much it would cost to get the jabs done for my new puppy. Now, the vet receptionist will sometimes say, oh, yes, oh, what's your puppy called? And straight away, they're trying to get this potential client into their vet practice by building rapport and showing an interest in the animal, which seems on paper, in theory, like the right kind of thing to do. Now, some people really want to have a conversation with about their new animal to anyone who will listen. And some people just want the information about the price and so what you can see it again right at the start of the conversation is some receptionists are hearing this person doesn't want to talk about their

Starting point is 00:09:53 animal they just want the information whereas some of them respond really well to oh and how old is your puppy and what's it what's it called and some people join in with that so again it's back to listening. Are you sticking to your script and you are going to build rapport with this person, whether they like it or not? Or are you listening that here's a person who just wants the information? And it's the difference again, between effective and less effective conversations. Yeah, well, we're trained or taught that, you know, it's important to show interest in other people and that if you want to have a good conversation, show interest by saying, hi, how are you?

Starting point is 00:10:28 But maybe that's just not necessary and unwanted. Yeah. And again, it's one of those things. This is partly why I do what I do and talk about a kind of scientific approach to conversation. And that is that we can imagine all sorts. We can remember all sorts and communication itself suffers I think as a topic by being something that we've all done since we were born we all have loads of experience of and lots of opinions about and that makes it hard sometimes to sort of chip away at and knock over some of the myths and

Starting point is 00:11:02 stereotypes about communication that we've picked up along the way. So when we look at how people are actually interacting with each other, it can be different. And when you show people that, it's really obvious as well. But you have to, unlike, for example, being a scientist of black holes, where your average person on the street probably doesn't know much technically about black holes. Communication's a weird one because there's so much pop psychology out there. Everyone's got a view about what good communication would look at. And so what then happens, I think, sometimes is people build things like communication training and assessment based on good intentions and the kinds of things that people say constitute a good conversation. But actually, when you look at

Starting point is 00:11:45 what people are really doing, it's something else. So it's really important to scrutinize real conversation, to build those kinds of trainings and tools from the ground up, from looking at experts doing their thing. Well, how many times have we heard, and this is what I think is interesting about what you do, because you examine how people really talk to each other rather than how people should talk or are supposed to talk to each other. And we hear a lot like, you know, people have different conversation styles and that we have to understand their style. Well, how do you understand someone's conversation style if you've just met them? You don't know what their conversation style is. You have to talk to them without knowing what that is. But what do you do in the live conversation? And I don't know if this is a nice example of just a sheer live contingency of real interaction. So I've done some research with

Starting point is 00:12:57 a colleague looking at crisis communication between police crisis hostage negotiators and people in crisis. And almost all of the research in that area or certainly a great deal of it when it comes to perhaps people who are you know threatening to take their own life or endanger other people it's all it's all about do they really what's their intentions do they really intend to do this thing and we try to understand that scenario on the basis of maybe their personality or their health histories or their age, culture, gender, all of those kind of factors and variables we tend to think are going to shape outcomes and perhaps things like their style, whatever that might mean. But the thing is, when negotiators approach a scene, they can't give them something

Starting point is 00:13:46 like, here's a questionnaire so that I can find out about your conversational style. And on the basis of what you say, I will now take turns. What actually happens is that they have to use the evidence of everything uttered or not uttered by the person in crisis to design what they do next. And so it's a tremendous skill. And you can see it again in these recordings of real situations where the negotiator is feeling their way into the interaction. Today on Something You Should Know, I'm speaking with Elizabeth Stokoe. She is a social psychologist, and the name of her book is Talk, the Science of Conversation.

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Starting point is 00:15:04 Please be alert, as trains can pass at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals, be careful along our tracks, and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. So, Elizabeth, I know people who are pretty long-winded and they'll go on and on and they'll over explain things or go off on tangents and and i'm more of a get to the point kind of guy and you know i mean i'll listen to them but it would be nice if they would respect the fact that i'm more of a get to the point kind of guy how How do you bridge that? How do you handle that? So there's a couple of things I might say about that. One of them is when you transcribe

Starting point is 00:15:51 again in the way that I transcribe as an analyst, which is we use a system that represents every breath overlap, rising and falling intonation, lots of things like that, a bit like the music notation system. So it's a universal system. Once you can read music, you know what a tune sounds like. And we have a similar kind of way of representing interaction. So some people are really good at holding the floor by, for example, never coming to the end of a phrase. So right now, I'm going to do it so that you can hear that if you wanted to take a turn you'd have you're waiting for something what is it that you're waiting for I still haven't done it you're waiting for a fall like that and there's another

Starting point is 00:16:34 one and they're the points that we can listen out for and kind of jump in some people though they they never really come to that fall or they start one answer and then they move on to did you see that thing yesterday and you're like oh my god when are you going to come to the end so a strategy for dealing with this is let the first big package of stuff come out and then perhaps just delay your response so just wait for a couple of seconds it you know even a couple of seconds can feel like quite a painful silence and an interaction and rather, and I think that that kind of helps because most people, they are kind of oriented to the interaction themselves to some extent, and we'll hear a silence as something. And most people, not everybody, because not all humans are brilliant humans, but most people will

Starting point is 00:17:21 do a little bit of self-correction and it's easier actually when someone is doing something in conversation whether it is talking on and on or saying something obnoxious that you don't like a moment of silence after they finished can be more effective than feeling as though you have to intervene and say you're talking a lot or you've just been really sexist or whatever it is that you you're feeling because a silence will show people that you're not you're not literally with your with your participation scaffolding and kind of supporting what they're doing so you take a little tiny bit of the scaffolding away and that simply means not going even and people will hear that as I need to do something to

Starting point is 00:18:01 correct myself so this is another place where we tend to think that interventions have to be big and spoken and direct, when actually subtle things can be a bit smoother. One of the things that really seems to affect how we talk to each other that we haven't talked about yet in this conversation is gender differences. I think men talk differently to men than they do to women and women talk differently to women than they do to men. And so how do you look at all that? I'm really glad you asked that question because it's one of the ones that is another myth, I think. We all have an idea, I think, about gender differences in interactional style. But again, when you look at real, real conversations and people doing stuff like, for example,

Starting point is 00:18:50 phoning up to book a holiday or book a doctor's appointment or just talk with their friends, there are differences, but they tend not to fall along the lines that you might think, whether that be gender or so-called culture or things that we imagine are going to make a big difference. But instead, what you see is that people tend to think other things when they are, for example, phoning up the doctors to make an appointment. So you don't see women being, I don't know what the stereotype would be, more polite and men being more direct. What you see is that people design their requests for an appointment depending on things like how important it is to get the appointment, how entitled they are to have it, how easy it is for people to provide it. So when you look at something like a request, people don't make requests differently according to gender.

Starting point is 00:19:38 They make it differently according to whether they say things like I need, I want, I was just wondering if, would it be possible to? And there are different ways of making requests, but they don't really fall out along gender lines. I want to get you to talk about these short conversations we all have and that you analyze. For example, like when you call the doctor to make an appointment and, you know, it's important. It's a doctor's appointment. You want to make sure you have the details correct. But the person on the other end of the doctor's office sometimes seems like they just want to hurry you up and get you off the phone. And the way people feel about those conversations after they're over has a really big impact that I don't think anybody's ever considered. So go ahead and talk about those

Starting point is 00:20:26 conversations. So these are quite short conversations. You can see when I look at the transcript, and of course, I've got the benefit of seeing the whole encounter, I can go back and listen to parts of it. I can see, for example, that an appointment has been made, conveyed, you know, that the receptionist has said, you coming in on, you know, Wednesday, the 1st of September at three o'clock with Dr. Carruthers. So what happens a lot of the time at the end of these calls is that the receptionist thinks that they have done their job and you can hear them start to end the call and they will say things like, all right, thank you. And so you can hear from what they're doing that they're done. But the same time overlapping sort of interrupting or spontaneous with that all right thank you the patient will sometimes talk at the same time and say so that's

Starting point is 00:21:11 that and you can hear that they're having to push back into the call to keep the conversation going because there's something that they they need that hasn't been fulfilled and very typically what that is is a confirmation so yes somewhere in the mess of the conversation earlier there has been this information transacted about the appointment but what the patient wants is confirmation so they will push back into the call and say something like so that's the first or so who am I seeing again or so so when will my results be through and they want that confirmation now some receptionists will not end the call until they themselves have given the confirmation so they will not end the call with an all right and thank you and they won't

Starting point is 00:21:57 they won't initiate the ending what they'll do instead is say so um I've booked you in for Wednesday the 1st of September at three o'clock with Dr. Carruthers that's booked you in for wednesday the 1st of september at three o'clock with dr carothers that's all booked in for you and then the patient will say thank you thanks very much and they will move to end the call now it seems pretty obvious to me that you know confirming what happens next in someone's life is not difficult to do and some people do already what's really interesting is that some receptionists don't do it. And then when you look at the satisfaction ratings for those surgeries, you find that those surgeries where the receptionists confirm what's going to happen

Starting point is 00:22:33 next in the patient's life score much better than the ones where the patient has to kind of push that information. This is really simple. When we did the training, we managed to get those satisfaction scores moving in the right direction. And it's a really, really straightforward fix. So you had said like when the cold call salesman calls and tries to build that rapport, hi, how are you today? And people don't like that. But what if you walk into a restaurant and you want to get a table and you see there are no tables, the place is crowded. Do you go up to the guy and say, hi, hi, how are you? Looks like it and build the rapport. Or do you say, hey, I really need a table.

Starting point is 00:23:13 I think it would be really obvious to the to the restaurant manager, whoever it is, that if you if you do that bright rapport building stuff that you that you really want a table. So probably the best thing to do is say, is there any chance of a table? I can see you're crowded and not try to prolong the conversation or do that kind of false relationship building. But I think even more important to remember is going back to the vet call that some people want to talk about their new pet. So it's about listening. It's about, is this someone who wants to have a conversation and a bit of you know about their holidays or christmas or whatever it is before they talk about the main reason for the for the encounter or is this someone who just

Starting point is 00:23:54 wants to get through it as quickly as possible and if you are a business trying to keep potential clients happy then you should be listening for what they want to do, what they're showing you they want to do in this encounter. Talk about small talk or do they want to get to business? Well, as you said, we all talk. We've been doing it since we were young and we have very definite opinions on how to do it and what we think is going on. But it's just so interesting that when you really do what you do, which is examine how people talk, there's a lot going on that people have no idea. And it's really interesting to hear the science of this. Elizabeth Stokoe has been my guest.

Starting point is 00:24:36 She's a social psychologist who has spent over 20 years collecting and analyzing real conversations. The name of her book is Talk, The Science of Conversation. And you will find a link to that book in the show notes. Thank you, Elizabeth. Thank you for being here. Thank you. It was nice to meet you. This is an ad for BetterHelp.

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Starting point is 00:25:37 So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology.

Starting point is 00:26:01 That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker, John Ronsonson discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Deadlines are interesting. When given a deadline to do something, many of us just dread it. Yet others of us need a deadline. Without a deadline, things tend to get put off till later. Or sometimes they get put off till never. And then there are people who wait until just before the deadline to start whatever it is they have to do,

Starting point is 00:26:53 even though they've known about it for a long time. There has to be a better way. There has to be a way to manage deadlines so you can make them work for you and not against you. That's what Christopher Cox set out to figure out. As a magazine editor for several years, he worked with deadlines all the time. So he went out to find people who handle deadlines well to find out how they do it. And he wrote a book about it called The Deadline Effect, How to Work Like It's the Last Minute

Starting point is 00:27:23 Before the Last Minute. Hey, Christopher, welcome. Hi, Mike. Nice to be with you. So explain what the deadline effect is exactly. Well, the deadline effect has two meanings. The first one is the traditional meaning, which is a bad thing. The deadline effect is something that we talk about in psychology and economics, where people tend to delay action until the very last minute, which tends to have bad results

Starting point is 00:27:51 because if it's a project or a negotiation or whatever it is, they're being done at the last minute. And what I tried to study was organizations that had used the deadline effect, that power of the deadline to get things done, but dispensed with the last minute stuff. So they figured out how to sort of make progress on projects in a more orderly way. So I remember in school, one of the worst type of assignment to me is when the teacher would say, you've got a project due in three months from now or at the end of the semester. Because I was never the kind of guy that would go home that day and get started on it.

Starting point is 00:28:31 Instead, I would wait till the last minute. I would have this thing looming over my head for the next three months. And I hated that because I had always convinced myself I do better under pressure. I do better with a deadline. And if I start it now, it won't be very good because I'll just take my time and I won't feel pressured to do it well. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's two things wrong with that approach. One is, as you say, if you wait to the last minute, there's less time to do thoughtful work. But also there's all those months of pain, the pain of procrastination. And I've come around to thinking that deadlines are a solution to procrastination.

Starting point is 00:29:15 If we embrace them, then we rid ourselves of that anxiety and that pain that comes from just putting off a project until you can't avoid it anymore. And so how does that work? How do you use the deadline to your advantage rather than dread it and rush at the last minute and get all stressed out? How does that work? Well, there are a bunch of different strategies that are effective. But to go back to your example of the class assignment, there actually was an interesting experiment that was run by Dan Ariely, who wrote Predictably Irrational and other books. back to your example of the class assignment, there actually was an interesting experiment

Starting point is 00:29:45 that was run by Dan Ariely, who wrote Predictably Irrational and other books with some of his classes. And it was a similar setup. He had a class with three big papers to write during the semester, and he divided it into three groups. The first group was given mandatory deadlines, which were evenly spaced throughout the semester. The second group was allowed to choose their own deadlines. And the third group was given no deadlines. And as you might expect, those who had no deadlines fared the worst. They got the worst scores on those papers. Those with the mandatory deadlines did the best. But one interesting result of that experiment was the group that could choose their own deadlines,

Starting point is 00:30:28 if they chose evenly spaced deadlines, like the mandatory ones, they did just as well as the people with the mandatory deadlines. So that's a little bit of proof there that if you have an assignment and you break it down into parts, you set interim deadlines for yourself, it can be effective, even if you don't have some outside force telling you, oh, it has to be done this day, or you have to break it down into these mandatory deadlines. The problem I would have with that is setting my own interim deadlines like that. I'm much more likely to let those slide. When I set my own deadlines, I'm much more forgiving of those than if somebody sets a deadline for me and is expecting something come the deadline.

Starting point is 00:31:14 Yes, I mean, I think that's true for most people. I guess I'll just reiterate that a self-imposed deadline does have an effect. So it's worth trying if you're not able to set up outside enforcement mechanisms. But one of the things I studied is what I ended up calling a soft deadline with teeth. So basically, that's a self-imposed deadline, but then you add something to it that sort of holds you to your promise. So that could be something as simple as, okay, fine, you have a term paper due and you want to get it done before the final deadline. And so you tell your roommate or your friend or your wife or your spouse or whatever, I'm going to let you read this a week before it's due. That could be just adding a little bit of an enforcement mechanism to the deadline that will have an effect. I researched that on the ground with

Starting point is 00:32:05 Telluride Ski Resort, which their real deadline, the biggest week of the year for them in terms of revenue is Christmas, Christmas to New Year's. So that's their real deadline. But they set up a soft deadline and they try to open on Thanksgiving every year and they don't have to open that date. It doesn't really make any difference to their bottom line, but there's also teeth in that deadline because there will be real skiers on the mountain that day. So there are people, real customers that they have to please. But there are those of us who believe that we do our best work under the gun, near the deadline, near the finish line. We sprint. That's when we do our best work. So this idea of setting these interim deadlines,

Starting point is 00:32:50 it's a solution to a problem I don't necessarily think people have because many of us believe that we do our best work at the deadline, so we'll wait till the deadline. We don't need to do what you're talking about. Well, no, I believe in the power of the deadline to both make people productive and also make them creative. I think that they are in general forces for goods. What I'm offering is a way to take that power and redistribute it so that it's not at the last minute. So you do have time to revise. You don't have the long periods of procrastination.

Starting point is 00:33:29 So, but what about that assumption? Has anyone tested that to see that, I'm not sure how you would test it, that people who believe that they do their best work at the last minute under pressure are in fact wrong? That is the deadline effect, right? That has been studied. People are productive at the last minute. And there are, yes, I did read some studies that talked about how creativity itself can be aided by the sense of time pressure. I guess what I

Starting point is 00:33:59 just reject is this notion that the only way to create that kind of pressure for yourself is to wait to the actual real last minute. I think there's ways to trick the mind into behaving that way, even when it's not the real final deadline. What do you think, though, is the difference between those people who are able to do what you're talking about and those people who really struggle with that, who really... Because as I said, you know, when you get that kind of deadline off in the distance, it looms large in your life that it's hanging over your head and you're not doing anything about it. And yet you still don't do anything about it. So

Starting point is 00:34:39 what is the difference between those two kinds of people, I wonder? Well, I think that certainly there are psychological differences between individuals. 20% of all people describe themselves as chronic procrastinators, which leaves 80% of us who are either somewhat better or a lot better at getting things done without procrastinating. But I do think that both the most effective among us at getting work done ahead of time and the least effective can all be benefited by simply being a bit more strategic in our thinking. I mean, one thing that struck me over and over again in doing research on this subject was how important it was to just be deliberate in your time management. Simply thinking about a deadline

Starting point is 00:35:27 delivers real effects. The worst deadline you can set is to say, I'll get it done as soon as possible. It sounds like, oh, what could be more urgent than that? But honestly, set a deadline that's not as soon as possible, but is concrete, is on a particular day and a particular time. And that will be much more effective at sort of avoiding that procrastination and getting it done when you want to get it done. That phrase, as soon as possible, is such a slippery, slippery phrase. Exactly. Because so often, getting something as soon as possible means you're never going to get it. I'll get to that as soon as possible.

Starting point is 00:36:10 And it's never possible. So the other thing that I think kind of goes on in the back of my head is if I did this project that isn't really due for three months. If I did it now, then it would sit there complete and I would feel compelled to go back and make it better and revise it a little more and make it a little better. Whereas if I just do it at the end and turn it in, it's done. And you view that as a negative thing? I feel like having the chance to go back and improve it revises can be a very important part of the process of making something as good as possible. Yeah, maybe, but I also think you can over-revise. I mean, some things are good, and then you make them better, and you make them even better, but at some point there's diminishing returns.

Starting point is 00:37:00 At some point it's as good as it's going to get, and continuing to revise it just because it's laying around available to revise isn't going to make it better. At least that's what I convinced myself of. I think that there are some things that it's okay to do that. But the most important projects in your life, the most important creative works, whatever it is, you want to be deliberate and thoughtful about them and devote as much time as you can to making them as good as possible. So here's what I'd like you to address, and that is this, that some of us who procrastinate, and we have always procrastinated until the last minute, because, or at least we tell ourselves, it's because we believe we do our best work under that deadline pressure. We therefore don't necessarily think we have a

Starting point is 00:37:46 problem. It's just part of who we are. That's our personality. We're procrastinators and we wait to the last minute. That's what we do. So we don't see a problem. So convince me that, and everyone else who thinks that way, convince us that it is a problem. What's the benefit of doing it your way? So starting with procrastination, I think that people uniformly report that procrastination is unpleasant. So avoiding that, if you feel like you've made progress, it has psychological benefits. You feel better about your day. There's something called the power of small wins. Each day that you make progress toward your goal is you're going to feel good. And often those are not giant breakthroughs, but just incremental progress. So that's one reason to not wait till the last minute. And then the other is what you referred to earlier,

Starting point is 00:38:39 is that you get a chance to refine what it is you're working on. One of the places that I reported on was a very high-end restaurant run by Jean-Georges van Gerichten. And the way that he opens a restaurant is he creates mock services every single day, as much as two or three months before the first opening day for a restaurant. And the first time he does a mock service, it's kind of rough. It's only served to staff members. So the stakes aren't super high, but things go wrong. And the next day, it's a little bit better. And the next day after that, it's even better. And by the time the restaurant actually opens and they're paying customers there, things are buttoned up and sort of as perfect as they can be. And that's part of the reason that he is a highly awarded

Starting point is 00:39:24 chef and has opened 40 restaurants around the world. He's figured out the system that enables him to pull off something as difficult as opening a restaurant that looks nearly perfect. Now, see, when you explain it that way, the way he opens a restaurant makes all the sense in the world that you basically practice your way up to the opening day. And yet, I bet a lot of restaurants don't do that. And then, you know, the first day is a nightmare. And you wonder, well, why? I mean, it doesn't sound like it would be that difficult to do what he does. And yet, I suspect, I don't know, but I suspect most restaurants don't do what he does. Yeah, he's a very systematic thinker. And I think that, I mean, especially in a field

Starting point is 00:40:06 that's sort of half artistic, like being a chef, it doesn't necessarily attract that kind of personality. But people can just borrow his system now that it exists and use it to open their restaurants. But certainly, most restaurants open up and it's a mess. And I guess you just hope that the reviewer doesn't come by during those first weeks and decide that the place is hopeless. So tell me another story. And you've got several in the book. Just one more example of how this can work. For one chapter of the book, I got a job at Best Buy and I was undercover and worked at the store through Black Friday.

Starting point is 00:40:44 So I wanted to see how the store approached the biggest sales day of the year. And basically that operation, that store and every store the Best Buy runs across the country completely reorders itself in order to handle the crowds of Black Friday. And they do many different changes. But one that I found very interesting was they basically borrowed some moves from goal setting theory. And goal setting theory is pretty simple. It just says that the most effective goals for increasing performance are those that are specific and difficult. So there's that concrete again, you know, set a concrete deadline, make it a day, make it a date. For Best Buy, on Black Friday, they set specific sales goals that were a real number and they were very difficult to achieve.

Starting point is 00:41:37 They were sort of, you know, sell 200 of this particular type of TV that we normally only sell one of or two of or whatever. And by virtue of merely setting those very concrete, hard goals, they met them. It lodged in every employee's mind that that was what we were going for. And we put all our efforts to making it happen and it did. Yeah. See, that really rings right to me that a lot of this is the vagaries of as soon as possible, or I'll get to it when I get to it, that if you stop that and put like real dates, real times in, it changes your thinking. It changes everything. Yeah, that's exactly right. It sounds so simple, like simply think in the right way and your behavior will change.

Starting point is 00:42:27 But I promise you, it works that way. And it may not change completely, but at least it makes you think differently. And it certainly sets you up to probably do a better job than as soon as possible. I'll get to it when I get to it, which usually ends up in a train wreck. Right. Yeah. No, it nudges you in the right direction. Talk about short deadlines, because I think that's an interesting part of this topic. We haven't talked about yet, but I think it's important. Yeah. Well, there's a whole separate sort of field of research, which is all about

Starting point is 00:43:02 the value of short deadlines. Basically, by giving people less time, they're actually more likely to get it done. And I'll just mention two quick experiments that I found fascinating that supported that. One was with the census. A census worker did an experiment where she sent out the same census form that you get in the mail, but one group she gave a week less to finish it. Just one week less, same form, everything else is the same. And the people with less time were more likely to turn it in and they were more likely to complete it. Their forms were more thorough. And then the second, there's a fascinating paper I read called procrastination of enjoyable experiences. You wouldn't think that we want to delay enjoyable experiences, but we do because procrastination is so built into us.

Starting point is 00:43:54 And the researchers there gave out coupons for a free slice of cake. And there are two different types of coupons. One expired in three weeks and the other expired in two months. And you can probably guess where this is going. The group that had three weeks, so they had less time by five weeks to get their free cake, were more likely to go get it. Less time led them to actually cash in the coupon more at a higher rate. Five times more likely. That was how much more likely they were to cash it in. And you attribute that to what? Well, I mean, if you don't give people time to delay their project to start the practice of procrastination, they're more likely to get it done. That's definitely true. And my job before I wrote this book was being a magazine

Starting point is 00:44:46 editor. And I saw that over and over again when I had to assign writers to write profiles, to write essays. If I gave them less time, they seemed more likely to hit their deadline. So if I gave them a year to finish something, there's no chance I was going to get it on the date I assigned. If I gave them a week to assign it, then they were almost definitely going to meet the deadline. And I think that holds true for most things that we're trying to get done, even if it's something as seemingly irresistible as free kick. Yeah, that is so right on. Because if I get something in the mail and it doesn't expire for a long time here comes that phrase again i'll get to it when i get to it i'll get to it later and then i'll forget about it it

Starting point is 00:45:32 doesn't seem very urgent urgency seems to be that's the whole thing about this is that if if my homework assignment isn't due for three months there's's no urgency to get started. And when there's no urgency, there's no urgency. Nothing happens. Yeah. And the good news is that even if there is no immediate urgency, even if the cake coupon is three months from now, two months from now, you can use some strategies to reapportion that urgency, to borrow that urgency and distribute it sooner so that you can actually get it done. That should be the title of your next book is I'll get to it when I get to it. It's the evil opposite of my current book. Right. Yeah. Because that's, I think people pigeonhole themselves into, I'm a procrastinator, I put things off, that's just what I do.

Starting point is 00:46:27 Well, but you don't have to. I mean, you just have to change the way you think. You have to realize that it's not in stone. You could do it a different way, and you'd probably be happier if you did. Yeah, exactly. As I said, people have all sorts of different attitudes towards time and procrastination, but everyone can use simple tools like setting concrete deadlines, and it's going to help them. Well, this is really good news for people who struggle with deadlines, that there are ways to mitigate those deadlines and make hitting those deadlines a lot easier. My guest has been Christopher Cox. The name of his book is The Deadline Effect,

Starting point is 00:47:06 How to Work Like It's the Last Minute Before the Last Minute. And there's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks, Christopher. Thank you for being here. Thanks, Mike. It was fun to talk through it with you. Do you talk to yourself? You probably should, because I bet you have some very valuable advice for yourself. Research shows that using your inner voice can help control impulsive behavior. A group of people were given two computer tests, one using their inner voice and one with that voice blocked by repeating one word over and over. The test results revealed

Starting point is 00:47:47 much more impulsive responses when the inner voice was muted. So, for example, if you're thinking, I really shouldn't have that second piece of cake, that's your inner voice trying to guide you. And who knows you better than you? You'd like other people to listen to you when you have something to say, so consider doing yourself the same favor. Listen to that inner voice. And if you say it out loud, it packs even more of a punch. The sound of your own voice can make a thought more of a reality. And that is something you should know.

Starting point is 00:48:23 It would sure be great if you would leave us a review. Most of the podcast platforms like Apple and some of the others allow you to leave reviews of podcasts. I know some of them don't, but many of them do. And I read them. I read all of them. And I appreciate you taking the time to tell us what you think. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Hey, hey, are you ready for some real talk and some fantastic laughs? Join me,

Starting point is 00:48:51 Megan Rinks, and me, Melissa D. Montz, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? We're serving up four hilarious shows every week designed to entertain and engage and, you know, possibly enrage you. In Don't Blame Me, We dive deep into listeners' questions, offering advice that's funny, relatable, and real. Whether you're dealing with relationship drama or you just need a friend's perspective, we've got you. Then switch gears with But Am I Wrong?, which is for listeners who didn't take our advice

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Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: The Secrets to Better Conversation & A Better Way to Meet Deadlines

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