Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: The Surprising Power of Your Surroundings & How to Live Debt Free

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Starting point is 00:00:18 That's why there's BetterHelp Online Therapy. Connect with a credentialed therapist by phone, video, or online chat. Visit betterhelp.com to learn more. That's BetterHelp.com. Today on Something You Should Know, how tracking the little victories in your life will do you a world of good. Then, how all the things around you affect you from colors, shapes, lighting, even plants. Research shows that when we're in the presence of houseplants, it decreases the physiological effects of stress. It helps us concentrate and actually in some studies it has been shown to

Starting point is 00:00:59 actually make us more generous toward others. Plus, if you've ever called one of your kids by another one of your kids' names, there's an interesting reason why. And the best way to get out of debt. First thing you do is you consolidate. If you've got a line of credit that have lower interest than the credit cards that you're holding, then I would pay off the credit cards with the line of credit, so now you at least have like one focused debt. When you have lots of different debts, it can feel very scattered.

Starting point is 00:01:26 All this today on Something You Should Know. This winter, take a trip to Tampa on Porter Airlines. Enjoy the warm Tampa Bay temperatures and warm Porter hospitality on your way there. All Porter fares include beer, wine, and snacks, and free fast streaming Wi-Fi on planes with no middle seats. And your Tampa Bay vacation includes good times, relaxation, and great Gulf Coast weather. Visit flyporter.com and actually enjoy economy. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers.

Starting point is 00:02:14 Hi, welcome to Something You Should Know. I like to mention from time to time that there are a lot of episodes of Something You Should Know. And since we don't really dive into news of the day kind of topics, all of the episodes of this podcast really hold up over time. They're still relevant. So if you have time on your hands, you're certainly invited to take a visit into the archives and listen to some of the previous episodes. There are hundreds of them,

Starting point is 00:02:44 and whatever app or platform you use to listen to this episode will have at least the last several hundred episodes for you if you want to listen. First up today, it's very normal for all of us to be self-critical. It's human nature to focus on our mistakes and then beat ourselves up over them, which turns out to be amazingly unproductive, a big waste of time, and does you very little good. What turns out to be really powerful is to write down all your tiny achievements each day. It's called the progress principle. Teresa Amabile of the Harvard Business School has been studying this for 15 years and found that it's not only taking pride in the big accomplishments of your life,

Starting point is 00:03:32 but also noticing and writing down the smallest successes that can make the biggest difference. What happens is that when you consciously acknowledge your small achievements, it activates the reward circuitry of your brain. When this pathway is opened, some key chemicals are released that give us this feeling of achievement and pride. That serves as motivation to keep going even when other things may not have gone so well. So the recommendation is to keep a diary and write down all your little wins every day, big and small, and then watch how your emotional state changes. And that is something you should know.

Starting point is 00:04:15 Just about everything around you affects you in some way. And you know this on some level because when you walk into a room that's clean and tidy, it feels very different than when you walk into a room that's a mess. It affects you differently. Colors, music, lighting affect you, shape and textures, all these things affect your mood, your productivity and your creativity, often in ways you don't even realize. Ingrid Lee has studied just how these ordinary things affect us. She's author of the book Joyful, the Surprising Power of Ordinary Things to Create Extraordinary Happiness.

Starting point is 00:04:56 Hi, Ingrid. Thanks so much for having me. So explain how this works in a general sense, how ordinary things affect us. Many of us are taught to believe that the things that surround us are just incidental to our happiness and well-being. And what my research shows is that actually the ordinary things, the mundane things around us, can actually have a really profound effect on our emotions and our well-being. So even something as simple as the color of your walls, you know, research shows that people working in more colorful work environments are more alert, they're more

Starting point is 00:05:36 confident and friendly than people working in drab spaces. So these things that surround us seem like they're just ordinary mundane things, but they actually have a really big effect. All of them? Such a great question. I mean, I have a pair of scissors sitting here that doesn't seem to be having much effect on me. It's just a pair of scissors here. So I'm trying to understand the scope of this. Like, is everything affecting me or is the color on my walls affecting?

Starting point is 00:06:04 What's affecting me, do you think? There are certain colors, shapes, and forms that have an unconscious effect on us. So, for example, those scissors actually might have an effect on you. Research shows that angular shapes, when we look at angular shapes, it causes an activation in a part of the brain called the amygdala associated in part with fear and anxiety. And when we look at round shapes, that same activation doesn't happen. So there are certain ways in which even something as simple as a pair of scissors might have an effect on you. So I think there are many of these effects are unconscious, but there are also things that we can intentionally add to our space to change the way that we feel. Well, I like that because, and I think people have a sense of that. I mean,

Starting point is 00:06:56 you walk into a room and that room can affect you because either it's really messy or it's really tidy or it's white or it's dark. So I get that. So how do we then take what you're talking about and put it to work for us? So there are a few things that I think are easy ways to get started. The first is to start with color. I think especially in your workspace, for example, because many of the places that we work are often gray and beige and very dull. So adding a little pop of color to a workspace is a great way to get started. You can also do it at home. Another thing that you can add to a space

Starting point is 00:07:36 that can really have a powerful effect is adding something natural. So plants, for example, are a great one to add. Research shows that when we are, you know, when we're in the presence of houseplants, it has an effect on our blood pressure. It decreases the physiological effects of stress. It helps us focus and concentrate. And actually, in some studies, it has been shown to actually make us more generous toward others. Really? Yes. And the other thing that I think is so interesting, you mentioned order and disorder, like when we walk into a room and it's really messy. I mean, that's a really easy way to start, too, is to create some sort of order in your workspace or in your home.

Starting point is 00:08:21 Because there's a great study out of the University of Chicago which shows that people are more likely to cheat on a test when they look at visually disordered environments. And that's not just having clutter and messiness around. It's actually when people in this study, people were looking at environments that were very asymmetrical, that had lots of weird angles, right? So putting things in order, making sure your art hangs straight, and that things aren't at, you know, funny angles can also help create that sense of that unconscious sense of order in your surroundings that makes us feel so good. So I want to go back to what you said about color, because you said, you know, a color, a bright color can, you know, rather than a drab

Starting point is 00:09:05 office, that would be good. But I've heard that different colors have different effects. I think there's a lot of conversation out there about, you know, color psychology and, you know, what different colors do. I think that research is pretty mixed. But what is seems to be clear is that the brighter and more saturated the color, the more joyful it appears across cultures. And we actually see this in children's drawings. So when children draw happy and joyful scenes, they use bright colors. When they draw angry or sad scenes, they use colors like brown and gray and sometimes like dark purple. So in general, what I always tell people is choose the colors you love, but just make them choose the lightest and brightest versions of those colors. And is there a time factor? In other words, if I painted my walls

Starting point is 00:09:57 a bright color and found it very joyful today, how joyful would I find it a year from now when I come in here every day and I, you know, kind of don't notice it anymore? So this is really counterintuitive, actually, because you'd think that you would start to grow bored of bright colors over time. That's what we assume. That's, you know, research shows that we actually believe that we're going to get tired of these bold colors and patterns. But when psychologists actually ask people to try this, they have them, they give them products that are very brightly colored or boldly patterned, and then they have others that are sort of duller versions. What they find is people grow tired of the dull versions more quickly than they do the bright colors. And they speculate that the reason has to do with how stimulating those sensations are. So when something is, we like things best when they're sort of in a medium level of stimulation. And when we first see a very bright color,

Starting point is 00:11:01 it's very stimulating to us. But as we get used to it, it sort of settles into this medium level of stimulation that we find so appealing. But something that is new, that is in a duller color might be at that medium level when it starts out, but it sort of sinks to a very low level over time and we get bored of it. So it's not what we would expect, actually. What about art? Does art really do anything other than, you know, fill up an empty wall? Because I often think that, again, over time, I would have a hard time even telling you what's in my bathroom, even though it's been hanging there forever. There are many different things that I think art can do for us in a home and in our lives. But I think one study that I would point to that shows the effect of it pretty clearly is they call lean work environments, minimalist environments, no art, no plants, and then when they put people into what they call enriched work environments that do have artworks on the wall and some plants mixed in there creates a more sensorially enriching environment. And that is, I think, beneficial, even if it's just in the background for our minds. Okay. I'm speaking with Ingrid Lee. She's author of the book Joyful, The surprising power of ordinary things to create extraordinary happiness. Bumble knows it's hard to start conversations.

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Starting point is 00:13:42 built for possibilities. Visit wealthsimple.com slash possibilities. So Ingrid, we have plants, art, and color. So what are some of the other things affecting me that I might not be aware of? Light is a really important one. Of course, sunlight regulates our circadian rhythm. It regulates our serotonin levels, which is a neurotransmitter that's essential to mood and regulation of mood. And I think it's so fascinating to see some of the studies on this. So for example, there is research that shows that people working in sunnier work environments sleep 46 minutes more per night than people working in windowless spaces. So just getting a little bit more natural light.

Starting point is 00:14:33 And if you don't have that in your workspace, getting out for a walk in the sunshine first thing, if you have a dog, that's a great forcing function to get you out and get some sunlight exposure. But you can also supplement with artificial light. And there is some research that shows, for example, that for Alzheimer's patients, that just changing the light bulbs can actually reduce the rate of cognitive decline and also reduce symptoms of depression. So if you don't have the access to natural light, then getting artificial light can be important because we spent 87% of our time indoors as Americans. So light is a really important one. Does it have more of an impact if you know it's having an

Starting point is 00:15:19 impact or does it have an impact whether you know it or not? Some of these things have an effect whether we know it or not. So for example, what I was talking about about round shapes earlier, that's an unconscious process. And so that's happening whether or not we are consciously aware of it. But I think that when we are consciously aware,

Starting point is 00:15:41 we can notice and we can actually savor these joyful sensations that we put in our surroundings. So for example, if you're aware, if you're noticing that you have plants around you, you might engage with those plants more, you might draw your attention to them more, and that would increase the effect that that has on you. I would imagine what we've talked about mostly is visual things, but that music and sound and the things you touch, the other senses play music in a home, we actually sit closer to the people in our household or to the people in our family than we do when there's not music playing. So music definitely has an effect not only on our moods and our emotions, but also on our social interactions and how we behave around other people. There's also research on birdsong and that having the sounds of birds nearby or just

Starting point is 00:16:49 other natural sounds can be very joyful and soothing, partially because in nature, when birds are present, it usually means that it's safe. And if a big thunderstorm is coming, for example, the birds will flee and the space around us will go very silent. So if you're out in nature, you can notice that it's often quite noisy. And when we come into our very man-made environments, it's often quiet or it just has, you know, the sort of mechanized noises around us. So having some of those natural sounds can be another way to bring this kind of joy into our surroundings. Everyone listening to you talk about this knows exactly what you mean, because we've all had that experience of walking into a room that's painted a certain way

Starting point is 00:17:37 or decorated a certain way or been in a room that has a lot of plants versus a room that doesn't. It is a different feeling. We know it. But I don't hear anyone ever talking about this except you. I think it's very intuitive. And yet, because we have a society that has taught us to overlook it, we don't find it in most places. I mean, most offices don't have plants. They're, you know,

Starting point is 00:18:05 very angular, very gray, very hard textured. Natural light is rare. Maybe it's a special perk reserved for people who get promoted to a corner office. So these are things we don't find much. And then we especially don't find it in environments that are housing people who are more vulnerable in our society. So we definitely don't see it in, for example, nursing homes or housing projects or hospitals or, you know, neglected, you know, underserved city school districts. There are lots of places that are more institutional in nature where we overlook this completely. Yeah, because people don't think in terms of when they're setting up an environment, a space, a room, whatever, they don't think about how do we help the people who need to do something do it better. That's not the criteria they use.

Starting point is 00:19:03 Right. But if you're talking about a 15% increase in productivity just from having a few plants and artworks in your office space, it would be hard to find that amount of productivity in some other way. And actually, you know, there have been studies done, for example, on call center workers, that call center workers who have a view of nature. And again, that's another one of those spaces that hardly anyone thinks about making a call center joyful for the people who work in it. But in this study, workers were up to 12% more productive when they just had a view of the outside. And that translated to $3,000 per worker. So, you know, these are measurable, these interventions. And if we think about them, you know, the scale of this multiplied,

Starting point is 00:19:53 plus the fact that workers are going to be feeling better, that retention could be decreased, I mean, retention could be increased as a result of this. I think there's a lot to be said for how they could affect the bottom line. Are there any good, you know, real life examples that come to mind where this kind of thing has been put into practice that, that, and had the results that you're hoping for? So there's a nonprofit, Public Color, which works in New York City schools to bring color into school districts. And what they find is that graffiti disappears, that kids say they feel safer in the schools, and that attendance actually improves. So they go in, they just paint these buildings, and then they start to see these transformations in behavior.

Starting point is 00:20:41 I love that. Because who knew that? Who would think that? Because when you hear about programs in schools and it all sounds very touchy-feely and maybe it helps and maybe it doesn't and there's no way to tell, and there's an example of here's what happened and here are the results. It's as clear as it could possibly be. The founder of Public Color, Ruthland Schumann, faced a lot of resistance when she first started.

Starting point is 00:21:06 You know, she went to talk to administrators. She was laughed out of school administrators' offices because of the color she wanted to use and how vibrant she wanted to make these places. But it does have an effect. Yeah. Well, anything else like that? Because that's such a great example. That's just such a great example. where Tirana had really become a haven for organized crime and corruption. The city was bankrupt, and there was just garbage that would just pile up uncollected in the streets. And when this mayor, Eddie Rama, was elected, he was an artist by training, and he started to paint vibrant colors on all of the downtown buildings in the city. And shortly after this started, he found that people stopped littering in the streets. And then shopkeepers started to remove the metal grates from their shopfront windows because they

Starting point is 00:22:12 said that the streets felt safer than they had before. And then people actually started to pay their municipal taxes, which is something that years of enforcement prior couldn't get them to do. And in the five years after this painting project began, the number of businesses in Tirana had tripled and the tax revenue increased by a factor of six. It's surprising. It's the sort of thing that makes you think color can do that. Yeah. And it makes us, I think, have to reevaluate how we are looking at aesthetics in our lives. That is such a great story. And these are the kind of things like you would never imagine this to be true.

Starting point is 00:22:54 And yet here it is. I have another story that is, I think, that does speak to the emotional transformation of a space. But it's pretty poignant. In Japan, it's pretty well known that there's a generally high suicide rate and particularly a high suicide rate in the train stations. And so Tokyo, wanting to address this problem, has started a program of trying to implement barriers on all the tracks. But it's very costly. It takes a really long time to retrofit. And so in the meantime, they decided to try a pilot program where they started putting these blue light panels, LED light panels on the

Starting point is 00:23:37 ends of the platforms in each of the stations. And they started rolling this out 10 years ago. And what they found is that these panels alone, with no other interventions, contributed to an 87% reduction in suicides in train stations, just by the addition of... So lastly, if there is any, what's kind of a general prescription here? What's the advice? When you take all that you know, what do you now do different? Or what do you suggest other people perhaps try to bring a little more joy? The first thing I would say is to start noticing your environment. Notice the places where you feel most alive and where your spirits lift. And notice the places that bring you down and start to pay attention to the kinds of things that are in those places. Because when you do, you can start to translate

Starting point is 00:24:30 that knowledge and bring those things back into your spaces. Your spaces are not a given. We're made to feel like the space around us is just what it is. But there's a lot we can do to customize our space to make ourselves feel better, to kind of be a buoy for our spirits in difficult moments. It's just another way to help buffer some of the stresses of the world. And so by taking notice and starting to bring some of those things back into your space, I think we can take a lot more control over our emotional well-being. Well said, and I appreciate you sharing it, because really so much of what you said I haven't heard before,

Starting point is 00:25:12 and it is amazing how ordinary things can have an effect on how we feel and what we do. It's really amazing. Ingrid Fetal Lee has been my guest. Her book is called Joyful, The Surprising Power of Ordinary Things to Create Extraordinary Happiness. And you will find a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks, Ingrid. It's been a joy. Thank you so much for having me. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest.

Starting point is 00:25:54 Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and

Starting point is 00:26:32 in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet.

Starting point is 00:27:09 Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and

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Starting point is 00:27:54 There's a whole lot of credit card debt out there. According to NerdWallet, it's over $420 billion of debt carried month to month in the U.S. Probably everyone has been in debt during their life, and if you have, you know it's easy to get into trouble and it's hard to get out. Here with some really solid, sound advice is Shannon Lee Simmons. Shannon is a certified financial planner and author of the book, Living Debt Free, the No shame, no blame guide to getting rid of your debt. Welcome to Something You Should Know, Shannon. Hi, nice to be here. Thanks for having me. So why do you think this is such an important topic? It's a fascinating topic because

Starting point is 00:28:36 not only does it affect us from a financial point of view, which, you know, it costs money every month, there's interest charges, it can take a long time to pay off but what really fascinates me about it why I think it's important to have conversations about it is the emotional impact that debt has on people on families on households on relationships with other people and more importantly when you have debt or if you if you're a debt survivor if you've had debt before how that affects your future financial life I also find really fascinating I've really noticed over my years on the front lines of financial planning that people who have had debt before often the shame carries with them into the future even once they're debt free and so they can believe they're

Starting point is 00:29:23 bad with money even once things are back on track again and that can bleed into other areas of their life of a lack of confidence and a lack of self-worth so for me debt is not just about saving interest and shaming people about bad decisions they've made on purchases it's actually about like financial wellness and mental health. You know, I've often wondered if the people who get into debt, is it typically because there was something big that happened that required that they borrow a lot of money and now they're in debt? Or is it just, you know, too many dinners out, the nice shoes instead of the less nice shoes, and it just builds up slowly and then, oh my god, look how much

Starting point is 00:30:05 debt we have. It often starts off with something, I call it like a trigger, right? So there's, or a tripwire, there's something that happened. It doesn't necessarily mean it's catastrophic. Often, that's the case, there's a job loss, there's someone who got sick. And that's if we're talking about massive amounts of debt. I typically see is either you know someone's cat got sick and that was two thousand dollars they didn't have they got it was a home renovation that was supposed to cost this that they budgeted for and then spun out of control and not because of greed or or keeping up with the joneses but because you ripped up the floor and found termites or something right and then And then it was $5,000 more

Starting point is 00:30:45 than you expected, or $8,000 more than you expected. Some life throws you a lemon, you're not financially prepared for it, it goes on to credit. And now you've got this hangover from that event. That's costing you money every month in interest and the minimum payment that you have to make. Plus, now you've got to financially survive your life, same as you did before, but now with less income because you have to pay it back as well. And so the next time something happens, it doesn't have to be as, quote, catastrophic or as big. And it still might go on to debt because you've just got less and less income to work with. And this is how it starts to feel suffocating because you're not necessarily being irresponsible every time that

Starting point is 00:31:29 money goes on to debt. And yet you still feel like a failure. You still feel irresponsible because the debt is mounting, even though you're actively trying not to have that happen. And so I find that with most people with debt, you know, I've never met a person who's like, I can't wait till I'm in debt. Like that's not that's not a thing that people say. And so usually what's taken someone from being a person that doesn't have debt to a so they've got $5,000 in credit card debt and they think, well, what's another $100? Let's go out to dinner. And now it's another $100 and you do that a few times and now it's $1,000 and now you're really in trouble. Exactly. And so that's for me from where I sit on the financial planner point of view, I'm trying to stop people from entering that, you know, mindset, because if I can, if I can stop you, before you reach that apathy or that give up point, there's still so much that we can do to create hope and create wins and to get you back on track. And if I if someone has come to me, and they've already given up, then it's that much harder for us to like write the ship. Well, it would seem that because I hear stories about how people have so little money saved in the bank, that, that these kinds of stories are almost inevitable because although you may not

Starting point is 00:32:59 know what bad thing is going to happen, what, whether it's going to be the cat vet bill or the car bill or something else, something's going to happen. Something always happens to everybody. You may not know what it is. And if you don't have any money in the bank, well, this is bound to happen. It is. And so that's why those, you know, emergency savings are actually the most important. But I don't think they get emergency savings, don't get a lot of love, like most people really hound about debt repayment, and then also saving for retirement or using your tax accounts and that kind of thing. And often, there's this rhetoric around making your money work for you. So if you've got a few $1,000 sitting in a regular

Starting point is 00:33:42 savings account or in your checking account, not earning anything but a little bit of interest, there is this pressure that somehow you're being a chump, right? Like you're not taking advantage of it, you're not using it efficiently, you're not doing anything with it, it's just sitting there not working for you. But I would argue that it's keeping you out of debt. So it's just sitting there waiting for life to happen. Because like you say, life is going to happen. So at some point, you're going to use that $3,000 to bail you out of a situation instead of up a little bit of a slush fund, even if you're paying back debt at the same time, which is a little controversial because most people think that you should just throw down everything to your debt, eat beans for the next eight months and spend no money and never leave the house.

Starting point is 00:34:38 But I think that there's nothing more upsetting and unmotivating than going along your debt repayment plan, life throws you a curveball, it's out of the realm of what's affordable of daily life, and you don't have any money sitting on the sidelines to handle it. And then you have to go back into debt to bail yourself out. It's just compounding that sense of failure, right? So if you were prepared for that one lemon, then maybe it would actually boost your confidence that you can keep going and you can survive this. Yeah, well, I think a lot of people think in their financial thinking that that's what a credit card is for, that that's why they have credit on their card is that when the car breaks down or the vet bill comes, that's what they'll use. And that really leads them down a

Starting point is 00:35:27 road of trouble. Yeah, I agree. The line of credit is my emergency account is something I hear all too often. And I definitely do not think of a line of credit as an emergency account. I think of it as a really good consolidation tool if you've got a credit card already. But having actual cash saved on the sidelines is, if you're able to, is definitely ideal over definitely a credit card and even a line of credit. And that's because I don't think people take that emotional impact into account. Do you, when you deal with people, do you find that people who have debt, do some of them think, well, what's wrong with that? Everybody has debt that they, that they don't actually see it as a problem. It's just, that's how you do things. I think that there is a level with some

Starting point is 00:36:22 people of apathy because they have no hope. And I think that that's really when you start to hear people say things like, you know, it is what it is, or everyone's got debt. I don't think that it's cavalier. I think that it's a lack of hope that's happened. So they've probably tried a few times to pay it back and failed. And so what else can they do, but just accept. And I think, so again, if I can come in there and show them that they can be debt free, or they can be and a lot of times people are

Starting point is 00:36:53 worried about becoming debt free, because they're afraid that the changes to your lifestyle that you would need to make are so severe, and so and you'll never do them that what's the point of trying right like I'll just carry this line of credit roll it into my mortgage the next time I can and like that'll be that and I'll just keep doing what I'm doing but I offer a different perspective where maybe we paid off slower and over a longer period of time so yeah you'll pay more interest but you'll actually pay it down and and you'll still feel in control. And you won't feel like there's no point to it anymore. And so I think that when I hear someone say, Oh, everyone's just got debt, or I'm just bad with money, or I'm just a person with debt. It's an immediate signal to me that they've probably

Starting point is 00:37:39 tried and failed a bunch of times before. And they've just kind of reached this point where they've given up. So how do you get somebody jazzed to do this? How do you get somebody all excited about paying off their debt when A, it's going to take forever and B, it just reeks of hardship and sacrifice and all that. How do you get somebody, yeah, let's go? For me, the big sell is a couple. So so often i'll ask and i usually just ask the person like who do you think you'd be without this debt what do you think you could accomplish without this debt and then we start to daydream about that could we could we split it so that some of this goes to a vacation fund and some of it goes to long-term savings it depends on the person

Starting point is 00:38:21 could we build up this fund so that you could actually start a business? Like, what is it? Could you maybe qualify for a mortgage so you could buy a house one day? Like, there's all these different dreams and goals that people have that having the debt is impacting them negatively that, you know, showing them that without this, those things are much more possible. I think so that that hope piece, that possibility piece and that growth piece is important there. And then the second thing that I think is one of the things about debt, like one of the promises about being debt free is that you can get rid of whatever the emotional burden is of that debt. So I call it the emotional cost of debt. So I'll give you an

Starting point is 00:39:02 example. One of my clients had a line of credit that was $5,000. And she also had a credit card. And it was I think it was like $3,000 charging, you know, something ungodly, like 24% or something horrible like that. And she was throwing all her money at this line of credit, even though the credit card was so much higher in interest and all that stuff. And that's because this line of credit was a leftover from a wedding that never happened. So she put that on the deposits and then he left her. So then she had this debt that every time she logged into her banking is like a punch to the gut, like your wedding didn't happen, your fiance left you, your relationship fell through so

Starting point is 00:39:46 being debt-free for her and getting rid of that line of credit was such a bigger deal than the 850 bucks in interest she might have paid that year it had nothing to do with the minimum payment and nothing to do with interest and everything to do with her feeling like she could close a chapter in her life and move forward. So the other promise of being debt free is to how is this affecting your emotional well-being? And I'll tell you, most people, it's creating something in their life. When people talk about debt, a lot of times they'll put their hands on their chest like it's an oppressive thing. And they're not even aware that they're doing it. And then I'm like, do you know that you're doing that right now? And they're like, oh my gosh, I am. Because it's such an emotional burden.

Starting point is 00:40:34 So what's the best, assuming that your debt doesn't have that emotional baggage that you just described of this debt has a meaning, like the guy what left me. But you just have a lot of credit card debts. You've got seven different credit cards. So what's the strategy? What's the best way, if you're committed to make a difference and really dump this, what's the best way to go about it? First thing you do is you consolidate.

Starting point is 00:41:03 So if you've got other debts or like a line of credit that have lower interest than the credit cards that you're holding then I would pay off the credit cards with the line of credit so now you at least have like one focused debt that you can that you can put um pay down it when you have lots of different debts it can feel very scattered and like there's no control and no plan so consolidate where you can apply for a consolidation loan if you want to. And then the third thing that you want to do is you want to do something I call debt stacking. So I talked about this in the book a lot. And so that's where it's a lot of times what I'll see is, you know, somebody has $300 that they can put towards debt, they'll send like $100 to their student loan, they'll send an extra $100 to their credit card, then $100 to the line of credit. And that feels responsible in the

Starting point is 00:41:44 moment, because you're like, Oh, I've hit every single one of my debts. Like, that's great. But it's actually the most inefficient way to pay down your debt. So the biggest bang for your buck is once you've consolidated where you can to get everything onto like the least amount of places your money has to go to, and you've lowered your interest rate, then you want to start attacking the highest interest rate debt first. And all of the extra money that you have to put towards your debt would go just to that one debt at a time. And you just pay the minimum payments on your other loans that are outstanding until you're completely done the first one. And then you pick up the payment on that and you go to the next one

Starting point is 00:42:19 and pay it down militantly. Then you pick up the payment and you pay it down. So you pay off one at a time. And that's hard to do. But once you actually get the system going, you start to see it like a snowball effect. And it's very motivating. And it's a plan that feels very controlled and very strategic. And while you're doing that, what do you find works to plant in people's mind or however you do it, that while they're tackling their debt that's expenses that they've made in the past, how do you keep them from making more?

Starting point is 00:42:56 Because I would imagine it's tempting to go, well, we just knocked off $2,000 off that, so what's another dinner out? Yeah, I completely agree. I think the number one way to stop people from going into more debt while they're paying down debt is twofold. So one, it's making a realistic plan. So allowing them enough cash flow every month that they can still maybe get a coffee or like something that doesn't feel like constant deprivation because they might be paying. I mean, anybody can be on their best financial behavior for like three or four months. But what if you're paying down debt for two years? Can you actually be on your best financial

Starting point is 00:43:35 behavior for every day for two years? Probably not. So let's instead of pretending like we will be, let's just be realistic and plan around what's going on in your life. And so I'm a big proponent of a realistic budget so that the debt repayment plan isn't punishing. And so it's actually realistic. And the second thing we've already chatted about is to actually save a little bit of money, even 25 bucks a month, 50 bucks a month, whatever it is, just a little bit of money to a savings account. So that if you drop your phone, and and it breaks and it's $400 to fix, you've got that money sitting on the sidelines and you don't have to use debt to bail yourself out of that situation and you'll feel so in control of your money.

Starting point is 00:44:16 And lastly, because even people with the best of intentions, when they get their credit card, and you know how it says now on the credit card, if you make the minimum payment, it'll take you 75,000 years to pay this off. It's a long haul. And even though you may start, it's like a diet. Even though you may start off with the best of intentions, how do you keep on the straight and narrow? What do you keep telling yourself so that you stick with it for

Starting point is 00:44:47 at least enough time that you start to see some results which might help you self-motivate? Yeah, that's great. So great point on the self-motivating factor is once you start to see it, it's easier and easier and easier. But getting started is really hard. And I think it comes back to that thing that we were talking about finding motivation beyond the math, like, don't look at the interest that you're paying as the sole motivator. I don't think it's that motivating. Think about what this debt is holding you back from in your life. And and so what is it costing you besides the interest? Is it costing you sleepless nights? Is it is it costing you fights with your partner? Is it? Is it a sinking feeling in your stomach?

Starting point is 00:45:26 Is it the $500 that could be going towards a vacation fund that you just never are going to get to because you have to pay this debt? What is this debt costing you outside of the interest? And how do we harness that as what your motivator is going to be every single day? And so I usually will suggest that somebody you know once they nail down what it is we will write it down somewhere physically and so it's kind of like this touchstone a great example was one of my clients was really nervous about becoming becoming a dad because he had debt he felt like it made him feel like irresponsible

Starting point is 00:46:01 and that his partner couldn't count on him and everything. And so that was his motivation to do it. But like you said, life is going to happen. It's going to be hard. So he wrote himself, actually she wrote him a little love note that he put on a sticker that he put on his credit card that every time he pulled out his credit card before he swiped, he would see it. And it was like this constant reminder without it being shaming, which I think is also important. It was this constant supportive reminder that he is going without in that moment, even though it's more convenient,

Starting point is 00:46:35 even though it's easier, even though it's faster, whatever that, you know, your tired self is like, oh, I don't care. Screw it. Like, I'll just do it. It's a, it's a supportive reminder in that moment that there's reasons beyond whatever this expense is that we're trying to do this and he said that it worked wonders for him like sure every now and then he would still spend money on his credit card on something that was like you know not ideal but at the end of the day the overwhelming effect was it was that he used it less or he would be in the checkout line pulling it out and then actually walk out of the checkout line because it was like, oh, right, that's not, this is not more important than this other thing. I think that's a great example of that. But you know, what's interesting is I think this is such a common problem where people have too much debt. And yet

Starting point is 00:47:17 when you're sitting there at the computer with your checkbook or however you pay your bills, it's a very lonely feeling knowing you've got this big weight on your shoulders. And it's great to get some advice to help unburden the weight. Shannon Lee Simmons has been my guest. She's a certified financial planner and author of the book Living Debt Free, the No Shame, No Blame Guide to Getting Rid of Your Debt. And you'll find a link to her book in the show notes. Thank you, Shannon. Thanks so much, Mike. It's been a pleasure.

Starting point is 00:47:51 How many times have you called one of your children by one of your other children's names? It happens a lot. And it's not a sign of dementia or absent-mindedness. It's just the way the brain works, according to neuroscientist Dr. David Rubin. What happens is we store the names of our family members in something that resembles a file in the brain. So when you go to that file to get someone's name, it's very easy to pick up another name in that file by mistake. It's even more likely to happen when the names are similar, like Mike and Mickey. You'll notice that you never mistakenly call your child by one of your co-workers' names because your co-workers, they're in a different file. And one other interesting

Starting point is 00:48:39 thing is that your dog's name is also in that family file, which is why you may call one of your kids by your dog's name, but not your cat's name. The cat's name isn't in there, so you won't call your kids by your cat's name. And that is something you should know. Reviews are helpful. That's why I ask you frequently if you would please leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps us with our rankings. It helps us attract new listeners. So please leave a review. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

Starting point is 00:49:15 Hey, hey, are you ready for some real talk and some fantastic laughs? Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? We're serving up for hilarious shows every week designed to entertain and engage and, you know, possibly enrage you. In Don't Blame Me, we dive deep into listeners' questions, offering advice that's funny, relatable, and real. Whether you're dealing with relationship drama or you just need a friend's perspective, we've got you. Then switch gears with But Am I Wrong?, which is for listeners who

Starting point is 00:49:44 didn't take our advice and want to know if they are the villains in the situation. Plus, we've got you. Then switch gears with But Am I Wrong, which is for listeners who didn't take our advice and want to know if they are the villains in the situation. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events and present situations that we might even be wrong in our lives. Spoiler alert, we are actually quite literally never wrong. But wait, there's more. Check out See You Next Tuesday, where we reveal the juicy results from our listener polls from But Am I Wrong.

Starting point is 00:50:04 And don't miss Fisting Friday, where we catch up, chat about pop culture, TV and movies. It's the perfect way to kick off your weekend. So if you're looking for a podcast that feels like a chat with your besties, listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. During her journey, Isla meets new friends, including King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, and learns valuable life lessons with every quest, sword fight, and dragon ride. Positive and uplifting stories remind us all about the importance of kindness, friendship, honesty, and positivity. Join me and an all-star cast of actors, including Liam Neeson, Emily Blunt, Kristen Bell, Chris Hemsworth, among many others, in welcoming the Search for the Silver Lining podcast to the Go Kid Go network by listening today.

Starting point is 00:51:12 Look for the Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: The Surprising Power of Your Surroundings & How to Live Debt Free

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