Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: The Survival of the Friendliest & The Quickest Way to be Debt Free

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Starting point is 00:00:17 You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, why the next meeting you have at work should happen while you're walking. Then, the power of being friendly. It's helped us outlive other human-like species. Because our minds are built for friendliness, we survived and thrived in those other species when extinct because we could

Starting point is 00:00:53 cooperate and learn from each other in ways they could not. And that's what we mean by we're the friendliest species that ever evolved. Also, the next time you ask someone, how are you, you might want to change the question just a little. And millions of us are in serious debt. Discover how one couple paid off $78,000 in no time. We planned out that it would take us about five years of working really hard to pay off our debt. But once we actually got started and built up momentum, it only took us two years.

Starting point is 00:01:25 All this today on Something You Should Know. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like Something You Should Know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation.

Starting point is 00:02:05 And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back.

Starting point is 00:02:24 And in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers.

Starting point is 00:03:01 Hi, welcome to Something You Should Know. We have a lot to cover today, so we'll dive right in here and start talking about meetings. When somebody calls a meeting, you typically go sit in a room around a table, right? Well, that's a bad idea, apparently. The new thing is walking meetings. And there is some solid research to support the idea. When you walk, you tend to let your guard down, according to a paper written by Stanford researchers and published in the Journal of Experimental Psychology. Walking releases your filter. Ideas that you might hold back in a conference room will come spilling out when you're moving. After comparing people who met in a room with those who walked and talked, they found that people who walked were able to come up with more unique ideas, both while they were walking and immediately afterward.

Starting point is 00:03:51 And it didn't matter much if they were walking outside or on a treadmill. And while creativity is well served by walking meetings, the Stanford researchers found that sitting is a better option when you have a specific problem to solve for which there is only one right answer. And that is something you should know. We humans are basically pretty friendly. We are kind to strangers generally, at least until they give us a reason not to be. We cooperate with others. That's what makes things like driving and traffic possible, our willingness to be friendly and cooperate. What's interesting is that technically we have shared this planet

Starting point is 00:04:36 with at least four other types of humans, and they were not as friendly and cooperative as we are, and they're gone. So this friendliness thing has really been working out for us. And here to explain how and why this is so important is Brian Hare. Brian is a core member of the Center of Cognitive Neuroscience, a professor of evolutionary anthropology and psychology and neuroscience at Duke University, and he is author of the book, Survival of the Friendliest. Hi, Brian.

Starting point is 00:05:10 Thank you so much, Mike. So when I look around, I see a lot of animals that are friendly, at least with the other animals in their species. So what's the big idea here about human friendliness? What's so special about it? Well, I think the big idea here about human friendliness? What's so special about it? Well, I think the big idea is what we see more and more is our species is built for friendliness. We really have brains that have been designed to allow us to have empathy and compassion for others. And it allows us to learn from each other and cooperate in ways that other species can't.

Starting point is 00:05:47 And it was really working with animals that help us see that. How so? Well, I think the easiest is to tell you a story about how I got into studying dogs, actually, and the psychology of dogs. I was working with my undergraduate advisor in college, and he was telling me this amazing thing of how nine to 12 month old children begin to think about others thinking. And they do that through following gestures. So like when someone points, they would look in the direction that someone points. And this is the first sign, and each of us did this, when we start following the way that somebody points, that we're

Starting point is 00:06:30 really understanding that others are trying to communicate with us. And it's the window into others' minds. And so he was telling me this amazing thing, and he said, this is unique to humans. And I said, well, I think my dog can do that. And that's sort of what started us on this whole journey. Well, I always thought, I always figured that the reason that we're friendly, that we're cooperative is, you know, if I'm nice to you, you won't kill me. And so we can all just get along and, you know, share our food and not worry about the other one being a threat and that it's much more evolutionary kind of thing than anything else. One of the big misconceptions is that when we, everybody knows survival of the fittest.

Starting point is 00:07:18 And the idea in most people's minds is that the big, the strong, the alpha, the individual who can sort of dominate and take things away from others is the winner. But that's actually not what survival of the fittest means. Fitness, or that's where the fittest comes from, all that means is how many offspring you leave. And we see again and again that life's most successful strategy, it doesn't matter whether we're talking about flowers or we're talking about dogs, which are exhibit A of this, or other organisms, when you have an increase in friendliness that then leads to more cooperation, animals tend to be more successful and organisms tend to be more successful.

Starting point is 00:08:04 So friendliness really does win and it wins big in the game of life. But what comes with friendliness, if everybody's friendly, it seems that if you have a group of people that are friendly, often there's somebody there trying to take advantage. That not everybody is friendly in the same way. There is also self-interest involved. And so friendliness and self-interest aren't always compatible. That's true. Friendliness and self-interest are not always compatible, but that's usually the only thing we ever think about.

Starting point is 00:08:37 And there are so many examples where actually our self-interest completely aligns with being friendly. So just take an example from the animal world, where actually our self-interest completely aligns with being friendly. So just take an example from the animal world where when you see the V formation of birds flying together, well, the reason they do that is because using the vortex of the bird in front of them, it creates lift for the bird behind you. It doesn't cost you anything to let the bird ride on your vortex, but everybody does better because you're a social group and you rely on each other for protection

Starting point is 00:09:12 and, you know, all the good things that being social does. So there's so many examples of that in the animal world where friendliness really pays off and it doesn't really cost that much. But there's also examples in the human world, you know, any scam that you can point to is somebody using friendliness to take advantage of somebody else. That's true. There can be a cost to being friendly, but what is often not thought about is the cost of being aggressive. So there's also really excellent work showing that when animals are trying to be dominant and trying to be alpha, it actually is very taxing on them energetically and it hurts their immune system. So animals that

Starting point is 00:10:01 become alpha or dominant, they tend not to stay there very long. So let me give you one concrete example. We have two close relatives. We have chimpanzees that everybody is familiar with and bonobos. One of them is very, you know, trying to be alpha, trying to dominate, and the other species actually doesn't have dominant males. The males in that species are much friendlier. When we look at who has the most offspring, it ends up that the most successful dominating alpha male chimpanzee is not as successful as the friendliest bonobo male. So it really is survival of the friendliest in many cases in nature. What is friendliness? What's the definition from your perspective of what it means to be friendly?

Starting point is 00:10:53 Well, you know, anytime you have a new interaction or maybe a new guest, they might say they're happy to be with you. And I'm certainly happy to be with you, and I'm certainly happy to be with you. And that's already enough, just being together, interest in being near others, interest in wanting to interact. And what we see again and again is there are species where fear of another species or another individual is replaced with an interest or an attraction for that same individual and they become social partners. Concrete example would be cleaner fish. These are fish that clean the mouths of other predatory fish.

Starting point is 00:11:36 They actually eat the dental parasites out of the mouths of other fish. So obviously they should be terrified of the predators because they're really small, these cleaner wrasse, but they're not. They swim right into the mouths of the predator fish, the predatory fish, and their fear has been replaced with friendliness. They get a meal, the predatory fish feel better, and the predatory fish never attack them. This is a great example of friendliness in nature. Is it friendliness or is it just self-interest? Well, that's a great question because you can see it and biologists would look at this also in multiple ways like you just did.

Starting point is 00:12:16 I would say the behavior is friendly and even the psychology, what the little fish is feeling is a motivation to actually interact and it wants to be near the predatory fish. But in terms of thinking about how it pays off, the payoff is very selfish. I think is missing how nature makes the most out of cooperation and friendliness and why species succeed when they're friendlier. But in this example, is this like a survival instinct? I mean, the little fish is eating the dental goo from the big fish because that's, you know, that's its food. And the big fish is letting the little fish eat it because, you know, I guess it gives it, you know, a minty fresh breath and cleans its teeth. But there's no relationship here.

Starting point is 00:13:18 They're not looking out for the other one. They're just serving their own interests. It's both actually. So, and, and so I think we often, when we talk about friendliness, we think that friendliness means that I have to, you know, do it because I'm not selfish. It's not friendly if it's, if it's selfish. Well, in biology and in life, that's not the case. When we look at different organisms, you can be very selfish and be very friendly. In fact, there's a lot of benefit for being friendly.

Starting point is 00:13:49 And it pays off in terms of how many offspring you're going to have. But also it feels good and it's healthy for you. As an individual, friendlier species have stronger immune responses. Individuals that have more friends when animals are social end up being healthier. So friendship actually has a big selfish payoff. But the relationship doesn't go anywhere else, right? It's just that. It's just teeth cleaning. It's a dental appointment. It's like you and your dentist. You probably don't hang out outside the dental office. You're all friendly while you're in there. But once you're done, you're done.

Starting point is 00:14:26 No, absolutely. In the case of the cleaner ass and the predatory fish, it is that their relationship is strictly in the case of the cleaning. example of what you're asking me is when animals have these types of relationships where friendliness actually pays a big dividend and being selfishly pursuing friendship is a good strategy. Yeah, certainly seems like it is. I'm talking with Brian Hare. He is author of the book, Survival of the Friendliest. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The

Starting point is 00:15:23 Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI,

Starting point is 00:16:01 discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today.

Starting point is 00:16:19 Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. So, Brian, clearly there are benefits to being friendly, but there's also a problem if you're too friendly. You can be taken advantage of, you can be made a fool of. I mean, friendliness is good, but only to a point. We are built for friendliness. And by seeing that, we see that there's a mechanism that when we feel

Starting point is 00:16:52 threatened, it actually shuts down. And the idea is that it helps then protect those that we love in our group as if they're family. That's one of the other things that when we look at animals, we can see how we are different because we actually extend the love that most animals give towards family members, we extend it to our group and those we share an identity with. We're really the only species that does that.

Starting point is 00:17:17 And so when that group identity gets threatened, those friendlier parts of our brain shut down. And part of the reason that that is designed that way is so we can protect those that are in our group from others that may threaten them. Unfortunately, in the modern world, though, what that means is that we don't always treat each other as well as we could. Well, what do you mean we're the only ones that do that? Doesn't every animal, I mean, a mother protects her cubs. We're not the only ones that do that. You're right there is that other animals are nurturing and loving. And if we take a mother

Starting point is 00:17:54 bear, for instance, I mean, what's more beautiful than a mother bear playing with her young, nursing? She would do anything to protect them because she loves them so much but that's exactly the point is that the same moment that she is so nurturing and loving is exactly the moment she's most dangerous and so what we've seen is as humans became friendlier we actually have a new type of social category we are the only species that can recognize strangers, individuals we've never met before, as being part of our group. We have these group identities where we have markers so that we know that, oh, I've never seen this guy before, but he's in my group or she's in my group. And we then can love them and care for those individuals we've just met or just getting to know as if they were family. And we're really the only species that can do that. But at the same time, just like a mama bear protecting her young, we will protect our group

Starting point is 00:18:50 with the same ferocity that a mama bear would protect her offspring. It sort of sounds like what you're saying is friendliness is good, except when it's not. So friendliness is good, except when it's not. That's right. And I think that in thinking about humans, if we like friendliness and we would like to have more of it, understanding how our brains allow for friendliness gives us really powerful insight into a friendlier future. thing we know when we look at the scientific literature is having friendships across different group identities is critical to increasing human friendliness. If we want to have groups of people have a better experience with each other and care about each other and behave morally towards one another, having friendships across groups is critical. It ends up that these are bridges that allow for humanization, where we see each other as fully human and we treat each other with all the dignity that you would hope as a result.

Starting point is 00:19:58 What about the concept, though, of, you know, nice guys finish last, that, you know, if you're just so friendly to everybody, I guess I'm having trouble understanding, maybe it gets back to the definition of what it means to be friendly. I mean, I'm friendlier with some people than I am with others. I'm not so friendly with other people. And some people I'm not friendly with at all because they're jerks. So I don't really know. So what does all that mean? Let's go back and think about bonobos and chimps again. So bonobos, friendly male bonobos, who never try to dominate their group, have more offspring than alpha chimpanzees, who are jerks and dominate and beat up their group members. Guess what happens in the world of bonobos if a bonobo male tries to be a jerk and dominate

Starting point is 00:20:50 the group? Everybody avoids them. The females refuse to mate with them or to hang out with them. Lots of individuals will be aggressive towards them. So it's costly for a bonobo male to be a jerk. And so it's absolutely true that, you know, they're human beings who can be obstreperous and beyond. But it ends up that overall, being friendly has a lot of benefits. And because we avoid or punish those who aren't particularly nice, it continues to be a winning strategy. So the perspective that you're coming at this from is not so much that you as an individual will be a better person and do better in life if you are friendly. You're looking at this more as we as humans, as a group, as a civilization, do better when we're friendly. Yeah, and I think we're really taking a perspective on deep time, so evolutionary time.

Starting point is 00:21:49 And one of the big exciting discoveries in the last 10 years is there were other species of humans, in fact, as many as four, that our species shared the earth with until 50,000 years ago. So usually when we're trying to explain how humans happen, you'd say, oh, we have big brains or we're cultural, we have language, and that's what makes us different than other animals. And that's why we're so successful. Well, none of those explanations work because 50,000 years ago, there were four species that had all those things, but we're the only one left. And so what we've seen is because our minds are built for friendliness, we survived and thrived and those other species went extinct because we could cooperate and learn

Starting point is 00:22:33 from each other in ways they could not. And that's what we mean by we're the friendliest species that ever evolved. Who were those other guys? So our family members that went extinct were the Neanderthals, the Denisovans, Homo erectus. They were all other humans that had big brains. They were cultural. They were linguistic. But and they left behind all their, you know, we can see their technologies and their bones and learn a lot about them. But we know from those artifacts that they were not as friendly as we were. But just because they weren't as friendly doesn't mean that's why they're not here. Maybe there were physical problems or other mental problems that you can't just assume it's lack of friendliness that killed them off. So when we have an idea, we always are excited about ideas we can test. So the tests have been thinking about how humans create technology because it ends up there was an explosion about 50 a more diverse group of people, they innovate faster and they create new technologies to solve big problems quicker.

Starting point is 00:23:52 And what happened about 50,000 years ago, as we became friendlier and we could see strangers as our group members, we started innovating and cooperating with many more individuals. Instead of, say, a dozen people that we would meet over our entire life, we met hundreds of individuals that we could learn from and cooperate with, and our technological advances exploded. The other species of humans didn't do that. They were left only being able to cooperate and learn from a dozen or so individuals, and their technology lagged behind. It's how we easily out-competed them and it was through our friendliness. Well, that's pretty huge, I think. And that probably is maybe the big underlying point here is that the friendliness leads to cooperation, which leads to innovation, which leads to

Starting point is 00:24:41 civilization. There you go. Exactly. Hey, that was pretty good, actually. Yeah. If only I could say it so concisely. Yeah. Maybe I should be interviewed by me on this show about this.

Starting point is 00:24:56 And in other species that are maybe less human-like, do other species have friends? Because, like, the fish that eats the dental gunk off the other fish, but they don't go out and have the equivalent of have a beer together later as friends. They're not friends' friends. They're each serving a purpose, and they cooperate, but the relationship doesn't go beyond that. But are there other animals that have friends in the way that we have friends? So we are just like other primates in that we have family members and individuals we've grown up with that are our friends.

Starting point is 00:25:40 And we know that baboons, different species of monkeys, they tend to groom, they tend to hang out, they tend to protect, they tend to play with certain individuals never met before that are completely strange and aren't part of our group. And we can become friends with individuals just based on the fact that they share some type of group identity with us. Yeah, right. I mean, you can walk along the beach and join a volleyball game with people you've never met before, but you're saying other species would never do the equivalent of that because they don't know these people. Well, a bonobo might, but a bonobo wouldn't be doing it based on group identity. So in your volleyball example, you might be more likely to join the team of people playing that are wearing a shirt of the sports team that is the one you like because they're wearing a signal that you share that group identity. A bonobo wouldn't care. They would just, it's somebody new. They don't have

Starting point is 00:26:51 a group identity. They just like anyone who's new. Right. Yeah. No, I just meant like, you know, it's happened to me, like you're walking down the beach and people are playing volleyball in their one player short and they'll say, hey, you want to want to play? And, you know, it's pretty common for a human to say, sure, yeah, I'll play. But I imagine in other species that's less common. Yes. So that is something that's special about humans, that we can sort of see new individuals and, oh, they like volleyball. I like volleyball. Let's be friends. And instantly you can join that group and have a really meaningful social interaction and maybe even a friendship. And that is exclusively human. That is a human thing.

Starting point is 00:27:32 And that's what we think we're built for when we're talking about built for friendliness is that is the friendliness that allows us to cooperate and learn from each other and then innovate in ways that other animals can't. It's because we can be friends with strangers, people we've never met before. Well, I've never really thought of this before. I mean, yeah, people are friendly because, well, that's what we do. But clearly it's so important to our survival to be friendly and cooperate. It's really interesting to hear this. My guest has been Brian Hare.

Starting point is 00:28:06 He is a core member of the Center of Cognitive Neuroscience, a professor in evolutionary anthropology and psychology and neuroscience at Duke University, and he's author of the book, Survival of the Friendliest. And there's a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks, Brian. Those were great questions, Mike. I really appreciate it.

Starting point is 00:28:27 Hey, everyone. Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong?, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice.

Starting point is 00:28:45 Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong. And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle.

Starting point is 00:29:17 On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney countdown wherever you get your podcasts. I'm sure some people get through life without ever having to struggle with debt. But I think most of us have to learn about debt the hard way.

Starting point is 00:29:51 And it is hard to find yourself drowning in debt while it seems that everybody else has their financial house in order. It's just you who can't quite figure it out. And then when you look for advice on how to get out of debt, most of the advice seems pretty drastic. It's going to require some big lifestyle changes that sound difficult, if not impossible. But maybe, maybe there's a way that is not so drastic. What if you could actually get out of debt, and as you do it, you actually start enjoying it and really get into it. Well, if you're willing to entertain that possibility, I would like you to meet Jen Smith.

Starting point is 00:30:31 She has some very first-hand experience with all of this. Jen is a personal finance writer, and she co-hosts the Frugal Friends podcast. She and her husband paid off $78,000 of debt in just two years. And she wrote a book about how they did it called The No Spend Challenge Guide. Hi, Jen. Welcome to Something You Should Know. Thanks so much for having me. So debt is this interesting thing that kind of creeps up on people and then, oh my God, look, we're all of a sudden in so much debt and we can't

Starting point is 00:31:05 pay it off. And then even when people attempt to pay it off or attempt to adopt some habits that will get it paid off, it's hard for them to stick. Why is that? It's exactly like going on a diet. Like when you can't eat whatever you want or when you can't spend whatever you want, it feels like you're restricted like when you were a child. I think that's one of the appealing things of adulthood

Starting point is 00:31:30 is that we can do whatever we want. And I guess one of those things we can do is, as an adult, is to spend money, even if it isn't ours. And we've talked before on this podcast about the allure of plastic that, you know, you're much more likely to spend money with a credit card than you are if you actually have to take the money out of your wallet and give it to somebody else. Yeah, it removes that friction of the money actually coming out of your account. And we're seeing the same thing with the uprising of like buy now, pay later sites. I don't know if you've bought something online and maybe you've seen that thing where it's like pay interest free over four payments or something. It's kind of the same thing where it takes that guilt and that friction and that pain away from an impulse purchase and allows

Starting point is 00:32:22 you to pay for it later, whether on a card or in installments. So when people get themselves into debt, it's not something that happens to you. It's not like you wake up one morning, typically, and you owe all this debt. You do it to yourself. And so I wonder, since you work with people and you've been through this process, what is it that people do to rationalize to themselves when they overspend and get deeper and deeper in debt that this time it's okay? So when I was doing it, I think I just rationalized it by saying, like, there's no way I can get out of debt, so why would I even try? So I might as well enjoy life now and make whatever purchases make me feel good now. But it didn't fix anything long term. It didn't make me happier like I thought it would. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:33:19 Well, and I think there's, too, that feeling that if you find yourself $40,000 or $20,000 in debt, whether it's student loan or credit cards or whatever it is, what's another $1,000? What's another $2,000? It's not going to make any difference. So let's just pile it on. Exactly. And, like, I was in $50,000 of student loan debt. And then when I married my husband, we added his, so we were at $50,000 of student loan debt. And then when I married my husband, we added his. So we were at a $78,000.

Starting point is 00:33:49 So I was like, I made like $35,000 at the time. So I was like, this is impossible. I'm not even going to try. And so I kept making purchases and the interest kept piling up. So I would imagine, and based on what you're saying, that the only way you can get out of debt when you have a lot of debt is to change the way you think about it. Because if you think the way you thought that there's just no point, well, then there's no point. So I would imagine that that's where it starts. Or how does it start?

Starting point is 00:34:27 How do you do this? I won't sugarcoat it because I remember how rough those years were that we were paying off our debt. And like coming to the realization of what our debt was, what our income was, and what our spending was. I mean, that was huge. I still get emotional thinking about that season. But in perspective, so we did all that, like we realized we had more debt than we had income coming in for like multiple years. And our spending was mostly mindless. It was just impulse and habitual buys. But when we made a plan based on that, we planned out that it would take us about five years of working really hard to pay off our debt. But once we actually got started and built up momentum and then figured out what we were doing, it only took us two years to do it. So while the beginning was, it was scary and it was

Starting point is 00:35:35 dramatic, it was needed in order to start that journey that ultimately, you know, it took less than half of the time we thought it would. Well, that almost sounds like magic that you could pay off debt in half the time, less than half the time that you thought it would. So how did that magic happen? We started doing a lot of side hustles. So we had an income problem that we had to solve because it's great to save money and lower your expenses. But if you have an income problem that we had to solve because it's great to save money and lower your expenses. But if you have an income problem, you're not making enough money, then you're never going to shave enough off to reach your financial goals. So we had to start there. And then what really – we didn't have a problem with like spending too much on things. We had a problem or I say we, it's me.

Starting point is 00:36:27 I had a problem with just buying things without thinking. I am not the type A person that loves to like categorize everything and do Google Sheets. I don't love budgeting and listing everything out. So I'm really kind of like fly by the seat of your pants. And so that was really hard for me to actually stick to a budget because I just wanted to spend what I wanted when I wanted. Those were the two biggest things. And so once we got those things down, we realized that every little change we made didn't just move us one step further to our goal. They compounded. And so like one little thing with another little thing didn't just get us

Starting point is 00:37:15 two steps further. It got us like four steps further and like so on and so forth. Can you give me an example of that? I started doing a lot of side hustles. So when I started filling my time with making money, that automatically took away time where I would be maybe a target spending money. And so then when I made more money, I felt more motivated to put more money towards my debt. And then also I felt more motivated to be wiser with my money too. And so that's kind of where I got the idea for No Spend Challenge. I wanted to see like, okay, I'm making this money now. How much of it could I save if I just didn't spend anything like for a month?

Starting point is 00:38:03 So I started like challenging myself to do that. And so it was just all these little changes created a ripple effect throughout all my finances. So you guys made a real commitment to this. And it sounds like there must have been some epiphany moment where you said, we've really got to do this. You didn't just kind of fall into this. It seems like it must have been deliberate. Absolutely. It was right before we got married. My now husband, then fiance said the first thing he wanted to do was pay off his student loans. And he only had $24,000. And I'm sitting there with 50 thinking, I'm not going to waste the rest of my 20s paying off this debt. There's no way. But he was super kind and patient with me

Starting point is 00:38:56 to get on board. And I think that was the big, big thing for me. He just asked really good questions to me, like, what could we do with our money and with our time and with our resources if we weren't pouring it all into making student loan payments? And one of my biggest passions is foster care. I used to work in group homes and one day I really want to foster. And I know how time consuming that is and how much harder it is with a full time job. So I realized that I could make that dream come true so much sooner if I was debt free. And so that was really the catalyst and my bigger why behind getting on board and starting this whole journey. This idea of side hustles I want to talk about because, you know, very often you hear advice about, well, if you, you know, if you stop getting your coffee

Starting point is 00:39:59 at Starbucks, you know, you could save $10 and put that towards your, you know, your credit card payments every month. Yeah, but it's only $10. I mean, there are two sides of it. It's not only expenses, it's also income. And you obviously recognize that early that you need to make more money if you're going to get out of that debt. So what did you do? What kind of side hustles? How did you find them?

Starting point is 00:40:25 Explain that part of it. We probably did every kind of side hustle that's out there, but they are not all created equal. I will say that. So we found that the best side hustles were the ones that capitalized on education and experience we already had. So not just like taking surveys or the gig economy apps, but my husband is an aircraft mechanic. So he would go into the hangar where he worked and he would go to other mechanics and try and do paperwork for them at an hourly rate because everybody hates the paperwork part. And only licensed aircraft mechanics can fill out that paperwork. So it was definitely more lucrative than other things he could be doing. At the time, I was a licensed acupuncturist. That was my full-time job. And I went to a drug and alcohol rehab center and I did acupuncture there for hourly pay.

Starting point is 00:41:34 Yeah, we just kind of – we tried to look for more unique opportunities to freelance in things that we already knew how to do that maybe other people couldn't do. And those were where we did most of our side hustles. Because with those things, you could likely make more money for your time than you would working at a fast food restaurant or a retail store where you could probably get a job for 10, 15 bucks an hour maybe, but this probably paid a lot more than that. Absolutely. Because you don't want to spend 20 hours out of your day doing side hustles because that backfires to the extent you are more tired, you're stressed, you burn out quicker, you are spending more money on fast food because you have no time to cook,

Starting point is 00:42:25 you have no time to exercise, all that stuff. So you have to think your time is just as valuable as your income when you're trying to reach any goal like really fast. I think that is such a great recommendation and often missing from the typical advice on how to get out of debt, which is to reduce your spending, but to maximize your income, meaning try to find things that you're good at that you could get paid more for than minimum wage, if that's possible. It's not always possible, but if that's possible, you're maximizing your time. And that can go a long way to paying off your debt. Yeah, I've definitely read all of those articles online about how to pay off debt. And I've read all of the advice. And I took it at first, when we got back from our honeymoon, I signed up for every side hustle that I could do in a 24-hour period. And literally within two months, I had contracted shingles.

Starting point is 00:43:32 At the ripe age of 26, I had shingles because I had stressed out my body so much. And so I had to be more intentional about finding different ways because I just couldn't take those articles advice. My body wouldn't let me. So now let's talk about the paying it off and not getting further in the hole. What's the advice? What did you do that seemed to work? So once we had solved our income problem, the other part of it was spending money, like specifically sticking to a budget.

Starting point is 00:44:09 Because everyone says you need a budget to get out of debt. It is so essential. And I absolutely agree. But I didn't have a problem with making a budget or designing a budget. And at this point, we had the income to pay all of our bills. So it's not like we had the income problem to worry about. At that point, we had a spending problem. I keep saying we. I had a spending problem. So I had to be more intentional about figuring out why I wasn't able to stick to the budget that I myself had made. And so it really came from trying to find out like why I thought I needed these

Starting point is 00:44:57 things, what spending money on these things like really brought for me and kind of just like taking a step back so that I could get a big picture overview of my spending. And then by sticking to the budget, it was just small moves every month, sticking to that budget, making more money. That's how the debt got paid off. It was not a miraculous story. But I just had to figure out how to do those small things consistently to get from point A to point B. And when you looked at your debt, what was the method that you used to pay it off? I mean, did you pay off the highest interest rate first, the highest balance? How did you go about tackling that? We kind of did a mix and match. So I had student loans that were at 6.5% interest, and my husband had various between 3 and 5. So we started with my student loans.

Starting point is 00:45:58 And if you or anybody else have had student loans, usually there's a loan for each semester. So I had like six or eight loans within my loan that were just all at the same interest rate. So what we did from there is that we just started with the smallest one and paid that one off. We did the snowball method for that. And we just kept going to the next highest amount of loan until all six or eight were paid off in my student loans and we could just close out the account. And then we went to my husband's student loans and we did the snowball again. So they were all very close in interest rate. And we just went smallest to next smallest to next smallest until we finished them off. And when you say snowball, you mean that you paid off a loan and then took the payment that you would have made, continued to make to that loan and applied it to the next loan?

Starting point is 00:46:59 Correct. Yes. So that the next loan you were making theoretically something like a double payment and then the next loan a triple payment so that you accelerate the paying off of the loans. Yep, that's exactly what we did. And it worked? And there were some, you know, smaller windfalls that we got along the way, you know, like a Christmas bonus here or there and maybe some birthday gifts. We might have thrown a wedding check or two there. But it was predominantly just our side hustles and our regular income. And so how do you respond to people who say, well, that's, you know, that's great for you, but it sounds like a life of deprivation. You're focused all on paying off

Starting point is 00:47:52 your loans. You're not living your life. And I want to be me. I just got to be me. Were you there? Were you there with me in my head when you were saying this? Because this is exactly what I was saying while we were doing this. And so what would you say to somebody that says that to you? That they're right to an extent. It is a life of deprivation. But the more you deprive yourself... That doesn't sound good. Right? Yeah, that's not the answer. You're not selling it well. It's the more you do it, the short, the less time you actually have to deprive yourself. And it's not all miserable.

Starting point is 00:48:33 Just because you're depriving yourself of the things you once thought you wanted and thought you needed to be happy, yes, you are depriving yourself of that. But you actually along the way find things that make you just as happy that you would have never realized made you happy had you not taken the time to step out of your normal life and be challenged enough to find creative alternatives. Don't you find that when there's a point at which you're starting to do this, that the momentum builds and you kind of get into it? I mean, in your head, it becomes kind of rewarding and it satisfies perhaps some things that you used to satisfy by spending money, you're now satisfying internally by paying off debt and getting rid of debt. Absolutely. Yeah. That's one of the things that I found. I would definitely go buy those lattes at Starbucks and I would go spend weekends at Target.

Starting point is 00:49:48 And then when I started putting those things aside, I think the biggest thing that I missed was going to bars and restaurants with friends on weekends. And so that was something that I did a lot. And when I said, those things are no longer in the budget or maybe only on special occasions, I found so much more money, first of all, to put towards our debt. And the more you succeed, the more you want to succeed. I love James Clear in his book Atomic Habits.

Starting point is 00:50:21 And he says that motivation isn't gained by going through Pinterest and looking at motivational quotes. It's little actions. So every time you succeed, that is the motivation you need to succeed again and again. And it just snowballs. There is that feeling that you get. And I remember it pretty well, even though it was quite some time ago. It was right after college. and I had a lot of credit card debt and was very uninclined to do things, to spend money, to go places. And my friends all seemed to be fine with it. And I just felt like I was the only one with the problem. And as it turns out, and if you look at the statistics, zillions of people are in over their head with debt, a lot of it being credit card debt.

Starting point is 00:51:10 But there is that sense that everybody else has it figured out and you don't. It is absolutely everyone. I hope that nobody thinks that people have it more figured out than you do because this is a reality check. I've been talking to a lot of people from a lot of different financial backgrounds, and it doesn't matter how put together you seem, you still make financial mistakes. There are still wobbly parts of the foundation in your finances. Whether you're riddled with student loan debt or you're a certified financial planner I don't care who you are like not nobody's perfect I'll be super candid here I made a huge financial mistake just recently I realized that the 401k I had rolled over last year I hadn't invested it

Starting point is 00:52:00 in anything it was just sitting in a brokerage account, like gaining one and a half percent. And like, I'm a personal finance expert that tells people to do that thing that I didn't do, like almost on a monthly basis. So there's a lot of grace to how we do it, the process of you pay this and then you pay this. It's that motivation that you had and what you saw was the more you did it, the more you wanted to do it. And the idea of doing side hustles that paid you more money, it was really quite a recipe that proved to be really successful. And I think if people try it, they'll get swept up in it as well. Jen Smith has been my guest. She's a personal finance writer. She co-hosts the Frugal Friends podcast. And she's author of the book, The No Spend Challenge Guide. And you will find a link to that book at Amazon in our show notes. Thanks for being here, Jen.

Starting point is 00:53:06 Thank you so much. You say it or hear it several times a day. It's the question, how are you? And the usual answer is, fine, how are you? It's a fairly meaningless exchange that may need a little rewrite, according to Sheryl Sandberg, chief operating officer at Facebook. When Sheryl's husband died suddenly, she said it was a hard question to answer when people said,

Starting point is 00:53:35 how are you? Because people expect you to say you're fine, and if you don't say you're fine, it can be kind of awkward. But she didn't feel fine. So her suggestion is to ask, How are you today? The slightly altered question implies that you understand someone may be going through a difficult time right now.

Starting point is 00:53:55 And it's a much kinder question. It is also a more specific question that can lead to a more specific conversation. And it shows real empathy. And that is something you should know. Your ratings and reviews are always welcome, and I don't say that just because I like to read nice things that people write about me.

Starting point is 00:54:16 Well, actually, I really do like when people write nice things about me. Feel free to leave a rating and review at Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you're listening to right now to this podcast. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug addicted teenager, but local deputy

Starting point is 00:54:50 Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent VB Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan.

Starting point is 00:55:22 Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Rob Benedict. And I am Richard Spate. We were both on a little show you might know called Supernatural. It had a pretty good run, 15 seasons, 327 episodes. And though we have seen, of course, every episode many times, we figured, hey, now that we're wrapped, let's watch it all again. And we can't do that alone. So we're inviting the cast and crew that made the show along for the ride. We've got writers, producers, composers, directors, and we'll, of course, have some actors on as well, including some certain guys that played some certain pretty iconic brothers. It was kind of a little bit of a left field choice

Starting point is 00:56:07 in the best way possible. The note from Kripke was, he's great, we love him, but we're looking for like a really intelligent Duchovny type. With 15 seasons to explore, it's going to be the road trip of several lifetimes. So please join us and subscribe

Starting point is 00:56:22 to Supernatural then and now.

Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: The Survival of the Friendliest & The Quickest Way to be Debt Free

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