Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: The Value of Criticism & Instantly Make Your Relationship Better

Episode Date: January 11, 2020

Want to keep your fresh cut flowers, fresher? My grandmother always said put aspirin in the water and I’ve also heard you should put a penny in the water or some sugar. Well someone actually tested all these things out – and you’ll hear the results and discover what works best. http://www.realsimple.com/home-organizing/gardening/gardening-flowers/keep-cut-flowers-fresh/flower-food You constantly receive criticism and feedback from people – some of it is welcome some not. Some of it is warranted and some of it not. So how can you learn to evaluate the feedback coming at you so you can determine what is true and what is false – and not get defensive? And then how do you use that feedback to your advantage? Sheila Heen author of the book, Thanks for the Feedback: The Science and Art of Receiving Feedback Well (http://amzn.to/2pelwW0) has studied this and you will find what she has to say extremely helpful. Why do so many marriages and relationships go bad? Dr Harville Hendrix has been studying relationships and has worked with couples for over 30 years. He has authored several books on the topic including Making Marriage Simple (http://amzn.to/2pYzh9k). He shares some incredible insight into how any relationship can be made better – instantly if at least one person is willing to make some simple changes. Who doesn’t love bacon? Just the smell of bacon cooking is enough to make you crave it. So what is it about bacon that makes it so desirable? I’ll explain the science of bacon in this episode. https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=133&v=27EBed9rzs8 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As a listener to Something You Should Know, I can only assume that you are someone who likes to learn about new and interesting things and bring more knowledge to work for you in your everyday life. I mean, that's kind of what Something You Should Know was all about. And so I want to invite you to listen to another podcast called TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks. Well, you see, TED Talks Daily is a podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday in less than 15 minutes. Join host Elise Hu.

She goes beyond the headlines so you can hear about the big ideas shaping our future. Learn about things like sustainable fashion, embracing your entrepreneurial spirit, the future of robotics, and so much more. Like I said, if you like this podcast, Something You Should Know, I'm pretty sure you're going to like TED Talks Daily. And you get TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts. Today on Something You Should Know, what's the best way to keep fresh cut flowers fresher longer? The research is in. Plus, learning how to take feedback and criticism without getting upset can be very valuable. So when your mother-in-law is giving you that barrage of parenting advice, you know, a few of her suggestions might be helpful,

and your willingness to just not react to it negatively and entertain the conversation will go a really long way in improving your relationship. Then, why do people crave bacon? I'll explain the science of why bacon is so irresistible. And why do relationships go bad? One of the world's leading authorities on the subject offers some fascinating insight. Negativity is the problem, and negativity is defined as a put-down. And a put-down is any interaction that devalues another partner.

So negativity has to go. All this today on Something You Should Know. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests. But Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years.

She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you

get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, and welcome to the weekend episode of Something You Should Know. And now that the holidays are over, before you know it, Valentine's Day will be here. And if you are lucky enough to have your valentine give you some flowers, we're going to begin today by discussing how to keep fresh flowers fresher longer. I know there are lots of theories. I remember, I think it was my grandmother who thought you put aspirin in the water and that keeps flowers better. And I've heard, you know,

a penny and Listerine and all that. Real Simple Magazine did a test. So they put flowers in vases, lined them up. One arrangement of flowers they left untouched, and the other they did several of these kind of home remedies for keeping flowers fresh to see which ones worked. And here's what they came up with. First of all, putting an aspirin in the water with the fresh cut flowers. That theory is that aspirin increases the acidity of the water, helping it move up the stem. But in reality, half the petals had fallen off the flowers in seven days. So aspirin is no good.

Listerine. Supposedly a capful of Listerine in the flower water will kill bacteria, just like it does in your mouth. But after about a week, the Listerine didn't seem to do much as compared to the flower in the water that didn't have anything in it. A penny. The copper is supposed to act as an antibacterial agent, and that's why people put a penny in the flower water. Well, the flowers were slow to bloom. They bloomed beautifully, but then they died quickly.

Bleach is another one. Put a capful of bleach, and it's supposed to stop mold growth. In the experiment, it did stop mold growth, but it also bleached the stems white. And then there's changing the water daily and snipping the end about a quarter of an inch every day.

When they did that, flowers opened beautifully, but all the petals dropped off on day four. A teaspoon of sugar. There was an uneven blooming, but the flowers were mostly intact after seven days. Then there's the flower food that comes with the flowers in that little packet. It contains a biocide to kill bacteria, an acidifier to help stems drink water, and sugar to nourish the blooms. And it was by far the clear winner. After seven days, the flowers still looked good.

So skip the home remedies and just stick with that packet of flower food that comes with the flowers and you'll be much better off. And that is something you should know. You are constantly getting feedback from other people. Some of it is positive. Some of it, not so positive. Some of it's downright nasty. But if you can get good at evaluating the feedback you get from other people and not get defensive about it, it can become quite valuable.

Sheila Heen has been studying the subject of receiving feedback for a long time. Her book is Thanks for the Feedback, The Science and Art of Receiving Feedback Well. Hi, Sheila. And so why do you think that feedback or criticism, why is this so important? I mean, it's fairly easy to dismiss what other people think. So why should we care about what other people think? So 15 years ago, we wrote a book

called Difficult Conversations. And as we have worked with people around the world on their most challenging conversations, feedback shows up on that list. The ability to give honest feedback or to manage your reactions to unfair or off-base, the feedback you receive, is a central challenge for human beings. Why is that, do you think? So feedback sits right at the junction of two core human needs. The first is the need to learn and grow. That's a key part of happiness in life and satisfaction with life. It's why we take up hobbies in retirement. But alongside that is another core

human need, which is the need to be accepted, respected, and loved the way you are now. And the very fact of feedback often suggests that how you are now isn't quite a-okay. Right, yeah. Well, and people talk about, you know, that they want feedback, but what we really want is very positive feedback, and we really hate the negative. Yeah, I think that's right, and it's further complicated by the fact that we use the word feedback to actually refer to three very different kinds of things.

The first is appreciation. Appreciation says, I see you, I get you, you matter. What you're doing is valued. And sometimes when people say, I wish I got more feedback, what they mean is, I wish somebody noticed all that I do around here. The second is coaching, and that's the kind that actually helps you get better at something. And that's the key for actually learning and growing, accelerating your own growth. But the third is evaluation.

Evaluation is a rating, a ranking, it's a grade, it's a performance appraisal. It tells you what you can expect, even in a personal relationship. Where do we stand? Where is this going? We actually do need evaluation to tell us where we stand, but because it's so emotionally loud being judged, it can drown out the coaching and the appreciation. Yeah, so therefore, what's the advice? What makes this easier and more effective? So what we found is that when we receive feedback,

we have three kinds of triggers or reactions that can block our ability to learn. The first is what we call truth triggers. And truth triggers are all about whether this feedback is right or wrong. If it's wrong, well, then I can set it aside and I don't have to worry about it anymore. If it's right, well, then I'm kind of in trouble. So we're set up to be really good at wrong spotting all the things that are wrong with the feedback. But, you know, 90% of it could be wrong, but the last 10% might be valuable. And we decide that before we really

understand the feedback. The second kind of trigger is what we call a relationship trigger, which is all about who's giving you the feedback. And you can have a reaction to the who that's totally separate from the what. And so you can reject feedback because you don't trust the person giving it to you, you don't like them, you don't feel appreciated by them, when actually the feedback itself might be valuable to you. The third kind of trigger is what we call an identity trigger. What we found is that individuals are wired very differently when it comes to sensitivity to feedback, how far you swing emotionally and how long it takes you to recover. Individuals can vary by up to 3,000%. So understanding your own reaction to the feedback, and that it's not as simple as don't take it personally or don't get defensive, so that we offer strategies for

sort of minimizing the distortion that your emotional reaction to the feedback can have on the feedback itself. When people give feedback, I mean, is it your sense that people, when they give feedback, do it well? Or, I mean, does feedback usually have a hidden agenda? I mean, the source of the feedback, I imagine, has a lot to do with how you take it, as you just described. So how should we take it, or should we look for other things before we get our feelings hurt or take it to heart? Yeah, well, I think often we're waiting around for the perfect giver to come along to give us the feedback skillfully, and it has to be someone we admire or we trust. And that's great when it happens. The problem is that mostly our lives are populated by everybody else, right? People who aren't that good at giving feedback.

And also one of the key mistakes is that feedback often comes as very vague labels. You know, I wish you were more responsible. You didn't take your performance up a notch. Who knows what that means? And so then we decide it's right or wrong before we actually fully understand it. I'll give you one example that you can splice into one of them if you'd like. So we were talking actually to a radio host a couple weeks ago, and he had gotten the coaching that he should be more edgy. And he thought, well, that's just not who I am.

Like, I'm not going to be provocative or, like, use bad words. I've got to check my FCC list to find out, you know, what I'm allowed to say. So he rejected the feedback. But a few days later, he realized he didn't actually know what edgy meant to his producer. So he went back to the giver and said, okay, what do you mean by that? And it turns out what the producer meant was, you know, be more vulnerable, be more emotionally open on the air. I mean, he thought, well, that's actually more interesting. You know, that actually is something I want to think about. How would I do that? What do you have in mind? And they had a much richer conversation about it.

Ah, well, right. And that's a perfect example of getting defensive and saying, you know, maybe that's not, or I know better. And then when he explores it a little further, realizes that there might be something to it. But that took the receiver to want to know more. I think that's right. And I think that's why the real leverage here is with coaching the receiver, how do you take feedback that's vague, unhelpful, maybe totally off base, and understand it well enough to see, is there something valuable for me in this? And at work,

what the studies show is that people who do that, who seek out what's called negative feedback, and by that it just means you're not just fishing for compliments. You're looking for things you can improve. Those people adapt more quickly to new roles. They report higher satisfaction, and they get higher performance reviews. So it not only helps you accelerate your own learning, but it also influences how other people see you. Is it fair to say that if somebody gives you feedback, horrible though it may be, that if somebody's taking the time to give you feedback, there probably is something there. There probably is something there, and feedback is often referred to as a gift. Of course,

the problem is it often feels more like a colonoscopy, right? So the question of, is this person pausing because they actually are investing in me, and I should at least appreciate that. Or is their feedback actually also coming from frustration in the relationship? So sometimes it's coming from, you're driving me crazy, so here's how I want you to change. And so part of the book looks at, what about when the feedback is actually created by friction in the relationship, and how do you understand that so that you see what you could do that would actually make a difference in improving that relationship? Well, I imagine that's kind of the hardest because, you know, people say all kinds of things as constructive feedback and it's all couched in anger and friction and conflict,

which it's kind of hard to see the gift in that. It is. They're telling you how you're impacting them. And that can be particularly hard to understand because of the blind spots that we all carry. I mean, I don't have blind spots, but I know that everybody else does, right? Because that's the nature of blind spots is I can't see my own. So we actually need those people to help us see our blind spots. One of the most interesting blind spots that I found is that you don't actually hear your own voice. There's a little part of blind spots that I found is that you don't actually

hear your own voice. There's a little part of your brain that's very active as you listen to someone else decoding both language and the emotional tone. But when you yourself speak, that part of your own brain turns off. It's why we're so shocked. I mean, unless you're a radio host and you hear your voice all the time and it's quite lovely, the rest of us are quite shocked when we hear our voice on a recording because we don't actually listen to ourselves during the day. So feedback about the tone of voice you're using and the way that it's impacting the people around you and your family on your team is a blind spot that's hard to understand, but important to understand in terms of how you're affecting those relationships. It's such an interesting subject because nobody escapes this. I mean, there's nobody that doesn't get feedback in whatever form it arrives.

And you're right, it usually isn't perfect. It's usually not perfect. And so to be able to, don't you think it takes some real practice and some real effort to, you know, put away the personal and really listen to the message? I think it does. I think it's a lifelong journey.

I mean, if you want an extra helping of criticism in your life, write a book on receiving feedback. Because suddenly everybody in your life turns up with things that they've been meaning and wanting to tell you. And now that you're a professional feedback receiver, now's the time. because suddenly everybody in your life turns up with things that they've been meaning and wanting to tell you. And now that you're a professional feedback receiver, now's the time, right? But of course, you know, I have all of the same reactions. And I think one of the things

I've gotten better at in the course of working on this book is actually to pause to notice my own reactions and to have a little bit more curiosity. So over the holidays, I was invited to be a columnist for the New York Times for six weeks, answering reader questions about conflicts in their families and at work. And as I'm sure you have also experienced, after the first post went up, there's all these comments in the public comment section. And some of them were really harsh. I'm shocked at how uninformed she is, et cetera, et cetera. I'm a professional feedback receiver, so I did what good receivers do, which is I cried, and then I walked around,

paced around my kitchen arguing with people in my head. And I thought, well, is there anything I can say that doesn't sound defensive publicly? And I think the answer was no, because I did feel defensive. And so it took a few days, I think, for me to listen to it, to sort for coaching. Is there anything here for me to learn before I post the next installment? And so, yes, maybe they're crazy. Yes, they misunderstood me in many cases, but maybe they misunderstood me because I wasn't being as clear as I might have been. And they didn't feel I understood their side of the conflict when I responded to the family conflict question, because they're in a similar situation. And so that actually changed how I wrote the remaining five weeks,

because I would then reread my answers from the perspective of the person on the other side of the conflict that was being asked about. My guest is Sheila Heen. She is author of the book, Thanks for the Feedback, The Science and Art of receiving feedback well. Contained herein are the heresies of Redolph Buntwine, erstwhile monk turned traveling medical investigator. Join me as I study the secrets of the divine plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth

that ours is not a loving God and we are not its favored children. The heresies of Randolph Bantwine, wherever podcasts are available. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness,

and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. So, Sheila, in this conversation about receiving feedback, we think we have to talk about the fact that sometimes in giving feedback,

people are just plain wrong and they're hurtful and they're mean and they're nasty. I mean, if somebody says, yeah, I read your book and you know what? You're just an idiot. Well, can't you just dismiss that? Oh, absolutely. And so part of the question, particularly in public forums these days, on the Internet, etc., is how much of this is about me, and how much of this is them entertaining other people or venting their own frustrations in life. And one of the chapters of the book is actually also about boundaries. Being a good feedback

receiver doesn't mean taking the feedback. It actually means sorting for what's valuable and making a good decision about setting aside what actually isn't valuable. And in the chapter around boundaries, we talk about situations where you may need to shut down the feedback to say either, I heard you, but I'm not taking it, obviously, or the criticism is so relentless and so destructive that I actually need you to either keep your judgments to yourself or I need to put some boundaries on this relationship. Are there any barometers to where you decide this feedback has value or this feedback has no value? Part of the challenge in seeing yourself is that you often need other people's help. And so one of the things we recommend if you kind of can't decide, two things. One is go to someone that you trust

and say to them, look, here's the feedback I got. I think it is wrong, but I'm going to ask you to be an honest mirror. Feedback is sometimes called holding up a mirror, but there are two kinds of mirrors. One is a supportive mirror. It shows you under flattering light when you're at your best. And we need that sometimes to reassure us. But the other is an honest mirror, which shows what you look like right now when you're really not at your best and you're not handling this moment well. Going to someone and very explicitly saying, could you just be an honest mirror for me and say,

is there something in this that I need to hear, can help you just test your own sense of it. The second thing is you can also not decide whether it's right or wrong, but just do a small experiment. In other words, I think this is bad advice, but maybe it's worth trying out, so let me just try a piece of it in a sort of lower risk situation and see what happens. And then I can just test for myself whether I think it'll work for me or it won't. But we have in certainly in our culture, a but I've got to be me kind of people need to

be individuals and I don't care what other people think. And so I will push aside all this negative feedback and people telling me what I should or shouldn't do because I've got to be me. Yeah, and I don't think that the intent here is to mean that you is having a positive impact and helpful or ways in which it's being either destructive in your relationships or just you're getting in your own way and you don't realize it can help you figure out, well, I don't want to be like you. And so I'm going to chart my own path, but then at least I'm making an informed decision about that. Yeah. Because I could understand somebody listening to what you're saying and saying, well, geez, if I do what she's talking about, I'm changing every time somebody says anything to me and, you know, or I'm at least stopping what I'm doing to reflect on whether there's anything there or not in their criticism or feedback. And that I'm constantly charting a new course because somebody said I should. Yeah, and I think actually hearing the criticism or the offhand comment from somebody else,

not as marching orders and not as imprint of who you are, but actually just as input to consider is the goal. So, you know, when your mother-in-law is giving you that barrage of parenting advice in your first year of being a new parent, you may have decided to take a totally different route and style of parenting. So I don't think you need to change course because this isn't how she parented or thinks you should. But, you know, a few of her suggestions might be helpful. And your willingness to just not react to it negatively and entertain the conversation will go a really long way in improving your relationship with her, whether or not you actually take the advice.

Yeah, well, and that's a good example of the, you know, the mother-in-law thing, because that criticism is relentless, and it's not like you can get that person out of your life. And so you do have to do something, and if people criticize and give you constant feedback, it becomes, I would think, easier to dismiss it as, you know, I just, I mean, not even hear it anymore. Right. And it could be that her criticism is a way that she feels connected or involved. So hearing it for what it is, which is actually a relationship bid to be helpful, for instance, will help you also not react to it. The other thing I would say is, you know, our kids are growing up into a world where they really need to chart their own course, and they're going to learn more about how to

respond to life's challenges and adversities and the offhand criticism by watching how you handle it, then all your lectures combined. So it's a gift to give kids the ability to hear the bad grade or the unfair call on the baseball game as not who they are, but as information that helps them figure out, okay, well, if I want to improve this grade, what does this grade suggest about how I need to change the way that I'm studying or handling homework, et cetera, so that they see those challenges as opportunities to grow rather than, you know, a bullying comment that sends them reeling. Right. Well, it's that sends them reeling thing, I think, that's so, you know, it's the emotional

gut response to being criticized and being told that, you know, there's a better way or you should do something different, that just, that's the big elephant in the room, that it's very hard for people to ignore. Yeah, and it starts so young. You know, my eldest is now 14, but when he got off the bus in kindergarten, you know, in tears because kids were calling him stupid. That's a key moment. So my instinct as his parent, of course, is to say, oh, honey, you're not stupid, right? But if I do that, I'm just replacing their opinion of him with my opinion of him. And that'll work till he's about

13 or 14, where my opinion doesn't really count anymore. It's discounted because I'm his mom. Instead, what I want to do is try to help him find his own story about himself. And so, you know, this particular kid has a good sense of humor. So I kind of looked at him in horror and said, well, are you stupid? And he said, no. And I kind of looked puzzled and said, well, then does them calling you stupid make you stupid? And he sort of laughed and said, no. And I said, okay, well, then, why do you care what they think? And if you know who you are, then you aren't knocked off balance

by any silly, mean-spirited comment someone makes. Well, like I said earlier, I mean, this is something that applies to everyone. Nobody escapes this. We're all constantly getting feedback, often in the form of criticism and often in the form of some nasty criticism. And being able to handle that and deal with that and find the value in that is pretty important.

Thanks, Sheila. Sheila Heen is author of the book. Thanks for the feedback. You'll find a link to that book in the show notes. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life.

So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong?, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our Lister poll results from But Am I Wrong? And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. There are few people who have studied relationships as much as Dr. Harville Hendricks. And one of the fascinating questions he has tackled is why relationships, which theoretically start out happy, I mean, that's why you go into a relationship, because things are happy, and yet so many of them become unhappy and contentious and dysfunctional. Dr. Harville Hendricks is the author of several books on relationships, including Making Marriage Simple.

And Dr. Hendricks, in a nutshell here, explain why it is so hard for a relationship that starts out happy, why is it so hard to keep it happy and keep it from deteriorating? Our answer to that over the past, I think, 30 years now of singular focus on that question, in fact, the research started with why do couples fight in 1977, is that the complexity has to do with the presence in the relationship of unresolved issues from childhood that are not in the awareness of the persons involved. So consequently, they think that everything going on is about the current things in the relationship, but actually what's happening is an intrusion of unresolved issues

and unresolved needs from the past that have not been addressed and can't be addressed because they're mostly out of awareness. Unresolved issues in the relationship or unresolved issues even before the relationship or what? Yeah, unresolved issues between their parents and themselves or their caretakers and themselves from childhood, those issues that are unresolved, like the availability of the caretaker, the tone of voice of the caretaker, the absence of the caretaker, whatever the need was that didn't get met in childhood, becomes a part of the implicit memory system. And in adulthood, you find yourself that you've married to somebody who is similar to those caretakers, who's not responding to the needs in the same way the caretakers didn't.

But because you don't know the need is rooted in childhood, you assume that it's the fault of the current partner who is triggering those memories and therefore triggering those needs. So you get into a fight about 90% of what couples fight about has to do not with anything currently being created in the relationship other than the intersection of unmet needs showing up from childhood. That's what makes it so complicated. That sounds horribly complicated.

So how do you simplify that? I mean, where do you even start with that? Well, the focus that we do is on the relationship itself. We focus on helping couples be present to each other, creating an environment of safety within which they can share with each other what their need is rather than just sharing with each other what their frustration is. So the first thing is you have to create the relationship has to become safe. And the way it becomes safe is that we literally train them in a form of conversation we call dialogue that makes conversation safe because conversation is the

place where most is the most dangerous thing in the world is having a conversation. The thing that the men especially dread is when their partner says, can we talk? But most couples don't know how to talk. So they talk in destructive ways or critical ways or put down ways. And then the talking becomes more of the problem than the need that we're trying to address. So we teach people to do dialogue and it's a structured conversation. And I can go into detail about that, but that structured conversation regulates their brain. It regulates the emotional and cognitive centers of the brain in such a way that they finally are able to be able to talk

without hurting each other. That means they've now created their relationship becomes a safe space. We call that the space between. And when the relationship becomes safe, partners become present to each other. They attune into each other. They listen to each other. They hear each other in depth. What we thought was the preparation for getting the need met turns out to be that that's what the need is, that you be present to me, that you listen to me, that you hear me, that you value me, that I experience myself being visible when I'm around you is what the needs are. And they get converted into something else, like showing up on time, or why don't you ask me more often about myself,

or why don't you initiate sex more often. All of those are symptoms of more fundamental and core needs, basically of the capacity to simply be present to each other without judgment and criticism. So how does that conversation begin? Well, every conversation should begin with an appointment. Like, is now a good time to talk about something that I'd like to say that's positive to you? Or is now a good time to talk about a frustration I have or about our children going to college or whatever? So you make an appointment.

Most partners just lob themselves into each other's ecosystem without permission. So the partner says, yes, I'm available, or no, I'm not available right now. I've got to go to the bathroom. I'll be back in 10 minutes. So they get an appointment set up so that they're now present to each other for the appointment. Then the partner who asks for the appointment says, always uses the word I, which is very standard communication stuff. I want to share with you that I, that I, what, something I think or feel or want. The important thing now is that the listening partner, the receiver, says back to this person, let me see if I got that. You feel frustrated that, whatever it was, I was late last

night or whatever. Did I get that? They do a checkout. In other words, to be really accurate, that they accurately mirrored back, reflected back what they said. And then they ask a magic question. This was a discovery and is one of the most effective pieces. Is there more about that instead of are you done with that now? Is there more about that? Usually there's a shutdown in most conversations. What we encourage couples to do is just turn it to an update, to curiosity. Is there more about that? And the person says, well, yes, there is more.

And they mirror that back until the? And the person says, well, yes, there is more. And they mirror that back until the answer to the question is, no, I think that's all that I have to say. And then the partner mirrors a summary and says, well, let me see if I've got it all. And the focus is on all. If I got it all, you're frustrated with me because, and that's happened two or three times and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Did I get it all? Yep, you got it all. And then you go into a little more depth and say, well, you know, I get that. You make sense. And the sense it makes is that when I'm late, it blah, blah, blah, blah, causes a consequence that frustrates you. I really get that. And then we call that validation.

That is, I see the truth in your mind. I see the world the way you're seeing it. And then they go to another step called empathy, which is, and I'm feeling, I can imagine that when I'm late, you feel anxious and angry. Are those the feelings? And that's the empathic reach, to reach to the feelings that go along with the event. And then they switch sides. And the other person says, well, is now a good time to talk with you about or to share with you my response to what you said. And so they stay in this dialogical space until they both feel fully heard, fully validated, and empathized with.

So that's sort of the way the conversation goes. And it can last two or three minutes. It can last sometimes an hour or so. But we found that dialogue is the only intervention we do in imago therapy. And you have to do it with some grace and skill. It's not just a mechanical wooden thing, but it's helping people have a safe conversation. And that safety is what they crave the most, because when they feel safe with each other, then something really magical happens, and that's

called connection. If I'm safe with you, I don't have to be defended. I don't have to wear my armor so that I can feel us being together. I can feel us as partners. I can feel that we are connected with each other. And connection is the other side of joy. It's like a coin. When you feel connected, you feel joyful. So the only thing that ruptures that is criticism because criticism produces anxiety. Anxiety produces a defense. When you get defended, you don't feel connected anymore. So what we have to ultimately do is make all transactions such that our partner feels safe with us, no anxiety created, connection is sustained, joy is felt. So that's a really short and condensed statement, but that's sort of everything in a nutshell.

And do both people have to agree to this, or can one person start it? One person can start it. In fact, what we prefer is that both people show up in the same place, like read the same book, come to the same workshop, go to the same therapist, and get it at the same time. It's just more efficient so that they both agree. Well, I think we'll try this. But I discovered, I learned everything I learned from couples. And what I've discovered that if one person decides to drop defensive responding, like somebody says, well, you know, it's time to go to dinner or where's my code or, you know, those kinds of things that you could react to. If the other partner would say something like, let me see if I'm getting this. You're wondering where the code is or you're wondering when we're going to dinner or what was.

Let me see if I'm getting that. If they start mirroring, in other words, doing non-reactive, non-defensive responding, the other person, we discovered, will escalate for two or three more times because there's a kind of dynamic that's been set up in mutual devaluation of each other. They'll escalate a little bit, but if you'll sit with it for two or three more transactions, the other person's energy can't be sustained because it's like a tennis game. You're not hitting the ball the same way anymore, so the other person has to change their swing. So we found that one person can actually start this, but you have to start it, be consistent

with it, not judge the other person for not doing it, and just simply sit with, I want to be connected to you. I want to hear what you're saying. You're valuable to me. So let me see if I'm getting what you're saying exactly right. And is there more about it? The other person, the dynamic has shifted with that from being mutually oppositional to one person

being connectional. And if one person is trying to connect, the opposition can't be sustained. So yes, one person can do it. You can't fight with somebody if they don't fight back. Exactly. You hit them a ball and they don't return it the old way, you can't play that game anymore. That's right. Well, it does seem, it's fascinating, and it seems when you lay it out that way, kind of like, well, of course, I mean, how are you going to accomplish things the way most people go at this, and yet that's the way most people go at this? Yes, yes. Most people live in their defenses, and most relationships are defensive relationships. People seldom ever get to know each other.

So I think the other piece to add to this is that we've been refining this theory now over time in which we got down to what are the invariants of a great relationship. And hands down, couples over the past 20 years have said there are three things. One is safety so that I can feel connected with my partner. We can feel connected with each other and feel joyful. That's a great relationship. That's the optimal relationship. So then we've been observing what prevents that from happening. And we discovered that there's one thing across all relationships that prevents it from happening, and that's happening. And we discovered that there's one thing across all relationships that prevents it from happening, and that's negativity. Negativity, which is, and by negativity, we mean

any interaction that devalues one of the partners. To devalue another person, they're going to react to that because their amygdala, the neuroscientists are helping us understand that. Now, the amygdala, which is that part of the brain that registers the danger or its possibility. So if I roll my eyes or grunt or groan or say, what? That's not right. Turn left. And I put in this negative intensity, I'm putting you down. Your brain is not going to do anything but protect itself. And the first protection is to defend itself back by saying, well, you know, I don't like your tone of voice or it's left, not right. Or so you go into mutual fighting. So what we've, we've been watching this over the years in our own relationship as well as in couples,

and the work we've done with this is that negativity is the problem, and negativity is defined as a put-down, and a put-down is any interaction that devalues another partner, and this can be minor all the way to domestic abuse and violence and even war. That it's the human ability to be abused at the minor level to the major level. So negativity has to go. It has no place in the ecosystem of marriage or of any other relationship for that matter, but it just has to go. And so couples, so we are now in the process of, in fact, we're actually in the process of launching what we hope will become a global movement called the 30-Day Zero Negativity Challenge.

And inviting people to go into a zero negativity stance for 30 days. Helen and I now do it at our weekend workshops. And we also, even at short lectures, introduce it to people. Practice zero negativity, which means eliminating any interaction that causes your partner to feel put down. And your partner is the person who knows when you've done that because their amygdala registers it and start doing that. And what we're finding is that two things. One is just the awareness that negativity is the enemy of joy and connection and safety helps couples regulate their transactions more. And secondly, when couples do eliminate negativity and sustain the elimination over a period of time,

something like 30 days, the brain reconfigures itself and goes off defensive mode and into receptive mode. And people then begin to reporting those experiences we call connection and joy. And they discover that those moments are so precious that they begin then to intuitively and automatically protect them. The worry that some couples have is, if I go on zero negativity, does that mean I can't ever, you know, deal with anything that's a problem? And our answer is, when you go off of negativity, you can then deal with the problem, because usually when you're negative, the problem becomes your negativity, and therefore whatever you want to address gets lost, you know, in the static. So if you turn down the negativity and finally turn it off,

then you can actually engage each other. I want to go back. You said something really fascinating a while ago, that because we're so negative and defensive that we never get to know each other. Right. Right. You only get to know each other. Right, right. You only get to know each other's, how they protect themselves. And most of us know that. You say, well, you know, Harville is withdrawn. He's

quiet, or he reacts, or so forth. But knowing another person, or allowing another person to know you, requires that you are in a zone of safety, because then you'll drop your defenses and become vulnerable about who you are, what you fear, what you love, what you desire, and you will live in that place of vulnerability. But if you're not safe, you're not going to do that. You will regulate your input to your partner, and they will never know who you really are. They'll only know the defensive self. And that's, you're doomed if it's that. And most couples are that way, and they live in the defensive self if they stay married for 47 to 50 years, and most couples bow out at about seven.

Well, great. And what I always liked about your advice is that it's actionable stuff that people can actually do with tangible results of making a relationship better. So I appreciate that. Dr. Harville Hendricks has been my guest. His book is Making Marriage Simple, and you'll find a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Have you ever wondered what it is about bacon? I mean, there's bacon ice cream, there's bacon everything, and people love bacon. Even vegetarians often say they love the smell of bacon. They don't eat it, but they love the smell of it.

For many, it's irresistible. In fact, the average American eats 18 pounds of bacon a year, which is about 44,000 calories. But why is the smell of bacon so universally loved? Well, when bacon is heated, the fats melt and the sugars and amino acids have a very unique chemical reaction which releases a medley of around 150 volatile organic compounds from the bacon which float through the air and create that amazing smell. Now when the compounds reach the nose, they stimulate particular pathways in the brain making people physically crave bacon. And it happens no matter what kind of bacon. American bacon, Canadian bacon, British bacon. They all come from different parts of the pig, but they all create

that same basic unmistakable smell. Of course, there are a million health reasons to not eat bacon or any other processed meat for that matter, but the smell of bacon is so intoxicating, that's what makes it so hard to resist. Your comments and feedback are always welcome, and one way to make your feelings known is to leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced.

She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law,

her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook. Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Rob Benedict.

And I am Richard Spate. We were both on a little show you might know called Supernatural. It had a pretty good run. 15 seasons, 327 episodes. And though we have seen, of course, every episode many times, we figured, hey, now that we're wrapped, let's watch it all again. And we can't do that alone. So we're inviting the cast and crew that made the show along for the ride. We've got writers, producers, composers, directors,

and we'll of course have some actors on as well, including some certain guys that played some certain pretty iconic brothers. It was kind of a little bit of a left field choice in the best way possible. The note from Kripke was, he's great, we love him, but we're looking for like a really intelligent Duchovny type. With 15 seasons to explore, it's going to be the road trip of several lifetimes, so please join us and subscribe to Supernatural then and now.