Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: Understanding the Dimensions of Love & The Power of Strangers

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Starting point is 00:00:27 Download June's Journey now on Android or iOS. Today on Something You Should Know, what's the difference between regular salt, sea salt, pink salt, and all the other salts? Then, being in love. Why we want it, why it's so hard, and why unrealistic expectations are such a problem. We know people who have unrealistic expectations are less happy in their relationships, less likely to see a therapist if something goes wrong, more likely to think that the answer lies in finding someone else.

Starting point is 00:00:58 Also, why living a life of integrity can pay big dividends in cash, and the real benefits of talking with strangers, even if you think it's a total waste of time. Research is finding increasingly, even passing exchanges can have real benefits for people. So if you have like a little chit chat with your barista at your coffee shop, people come away with that feeling happier, maybe feeling more trusting, maybe feeling more optimistic, depending on where the conversation went. All this today on Something You Should Know. Bumble knows it's hard to start conversations. Hey. No, too basic.

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Starting point is 00:01:58 Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today something you should know with mike carothers hi welcome it's time for another episode of something you should know and we're going to start today talking about salt have you noticed that salt has gotten pretty trendy? I've received gifts of salt.

Starting point is 00:02:29 I have Himalayan pink salt that I got as a gift, which I guess is salt mined from the Himalayan mountains, and recently got some black lava salt from Hawaii. I'm not really sure why it's black or what's in it, but again, there are lots of new kinds of salts popping up on store shelves. So the question is, are these gourmet salts really any better or any healthier than regular table salt? Well, whether it's sea salt or table salt or any kind of salt, they all have the same basic nutritional value. They mostly consist of two

Starting point is 00:03:06 minerals, sodium and chloride. However, sea salt is often marketed as a more natural and healthier alternative, but it isn't really. The real difference between sea salt and table salt are in the taste, texture, and processing, not their chemical makeup. Sea salt is produced through evaporation of seawater, usually with very little processing, which leaves behind some trace minerals and elements, depending on the water source. These insignificant amounts of minerals do add flavor and color to sea salt, which also comes in a variety of coarseness levels. Table salt is mined from underground salt deposits. Table salt is more heavily processed to eliminate trace minerals and usually contains an additive to prevent clumping.

Starting point is 00:03:55 But that's pretty much the only difference. And that is something you should know. All of us have felt the emotion of love. To love someone is very special. So what is love? Well, Laura Mucha is someone who is obsessed with the topic, I guess you could say. She's been talking to people about their relationships and the love they feel for other people. For as long as she can remember, she has researched the subject of love probably more than anyone else you will ever hear. She's author of a book called Love Understood, the science of who, how, and why we love.

Starting point is 00:04:38 Hi, Laura. Thanks for coming on. Hi. Thank you for having me. Sure. So even though we've all felt it, love seems to be difficult to define. It means different things depending on who and how you love them, right? I think part of the issue is trying to use one word for it when actually there are lots of different types. And also some of the things that we might think of as love maybe aren't actually love. So for example, lust. There are some philosophers that would argue, a lot of people say, God, I love you so much when actually

Starting point is 00:05:18 what you mean is I am really lusting after you right now, or I have fallen in love so bad when actually what you mean is I've fallen in lust. So to begin with like the different types there's a sort of early type which is called by some psychologists romantic love and that has a high overlap with lust and that's there's a lot of idealization in that and a lot of excitement and there have been some studies that liken what's going on to obsessive compulsive disorder and so you're just sort of really dominated by that and then that calms down into something that some psychologists call companionate love they all have different words for unhelpfully but let's stick with those words so companionate love and that has like way different um neurochemistry so instead of having dopamine which is basically going yeah that was an amazing high get that again I don't care who it was

Starting point is 00:06:17 with companionate love it's just way more chilled out it's oxytocin which is colloquially known as the cuddle hormone so it's like just a bit more cuddly less intense you can get on with stuff without like being obsessed with this person and there's a lot of washing dishes and friendship and it's much less glamorous but um ultimately that's the sort of love that makes long-term relationships last and then within that there is lust and lust is basically there to get us to exist as a species and there's a lot of projection involved and there's different types of lust as well but basically it's really easy to get all of this confused because we just have one word which is love love. And that's really unhelpful. And it can encourage unrealistic expectations and also get you into all sorts of trouble when you

Starting point is 00:07:11 date someone and tell them you love them when actually it's just that good old lust. Is love the way we look at it and define it? What is it? Is it an emotion? Is it a feeling? Is it something in the air? If you had to put it in a category, is it a need? Is it a want? Is it a nice to have? What is it? and emotion. I think if I'm focusing on companionate love, so that kind of more chilled out love that I talked about earlier, then I'd actually argue that it's a skill because a lot of it involves things like tolerance and acceptance and commitment. And even if you've had, you know, the most stellar upbringing, tolerance and commitment are sometimes really hard work. And so that kind of long-term companionate love is a hard work and a skill. But with companionate love, I do think we're not designed to live on our own as humans. We need other people emotionally, but also practically, and not only in a group but also you know best friends essentially and so i think companionate love is a very intimate best friendship that we need as humans well certainly

Starting point is 00:08:33 in our culture monogamy is the norm although it doesn't seem we're really great at it but because you know the divorce rate is high and and, but that is the norm, but just because it's the convention doesn't necessarily mean it's what we should be doing. So what's your thought? The OECD did a review of almost all the countries in the world and found that 46% of them, I think it was 46, might have been 44, allowed marriage to more than one person. So already you have almost half the world where monogamy is not the legal norm. And then of the countries where theoretically monogamy is the norm, for example, in the US, there was a big study that looked at over 6,000 people and found that 21% had tried consensual non-monogamy. And then of the remainder who are theoretically in monogamous relationships, where both people think that this relationship is monogamous, we've got really high infidelity rates. And that depends on the different studies. So

Starting point is 00:09:45 up to 70 something percent in men and women, depending on the study. And there's some research to suggest that that should be a minimum because in one study, 30% initially admitted to infidelity. And then after therapy for six months, a further 30% confessed. So there's obviously infidelity going on. We don't really know exactly how much because most people don't want to admit to it. And they're worried about being judged. But you know, if you do the math on all of that, there's not that much monogamy going on. That's not to say that it's not great and valuable and brilliant. But I think we demonize infidelity and i'm not entirely sure that

Starting point is 00:10:27 you know we are naturally monogamous hmm well if you're not sure who would be well and also in the animal kingdom it's not the norm either and what most scientists would claim is our closest relative the bonobo um they have sex all the time like to say thank you to say hello you know just to hang out because they're bored um and then also you know research into swans for example you know we obviously it's really easy to think of the swans you know that picture where they both have their heads leaning in towards each other and they create the shape of a heart with their heads. It's so beautiful, romantic, but DNA testing has found in any clutch of eggs, 40% of them have at least one egg that's fathered by a different male. So, you know, we've got all these ideals, but actually the stats

Starting point is 00:11:20 doesn't really hold up. Well, that's what you, everything you've just said is kind of surprising because I think we like to think that especially humans are more monogamous than perhaps we are. And, you know, in the past when divorce was not as acceptable as it is today, people stayed together longer, it seemed, maybe unhappily, but they stayed together, that that's kind of what you do. And now people get divorced, but that has its own heartbreak and difficulty. So it's kind of like, well, why bother? Yeah. And there was a philosopher that made this point. It's called the bachelor's argument. And the argument goes something like, when you get together with someone, you marry them, you might get it wrong.

Starting point is 00:12:07 So don't bother. I mean, that is a terrible summary of this philosophical argument, but something along those lines. So, yes, I mean, you can get it wrong. And that is not ideal. If that involves, you know, a whole world of heartbreak. But I think a lot of people also get it right and it depends on your definitions of right and wrong you know what what do you expect from it I think one of the reasons that divorce has increased is because we live longer like a hundred years ago we didn't know how to treat some of the diseases that came around and we maybe weren't living as hygienically. And

Starting point is 00:12:45 basically, we didn't live as long. And so you didn't have to tolerate someone in a marriage for quite as long. And also, historically, in certain cultures, people would cheat. And it was just the norm and no one talked about it. And so I do think, you know, it's a bit harder now to achieve lifelong monogamy um but it is possible and the people I interviewed who managed it like really loved it and were huge advocates of it so I interviewed a guy who was a poet who had been married for 65 years and 49 days until his wife died and he was talking about grief and the agony of the grief of her dying and he said you know what I'm thankful for it now it was obviously horrific to begin with but now I'm thankful for it because it it demonstrates to me that everything that I

Starting point is 00:13:37 valued of our relationship was true and real and I didn't make it up so I think it is worth it and there are it's not like you're just entering into a tunnel with a blind you know an eye mask on not being able to do anything there are things that we can do that put us in a better position to make long-term decisions and it depends on each individual and and what that person has grown up with. So for me, it was to kind of figure out my commitment phobia or in attachment theory terms, what might be called avoidant or dismissive attachment, which is basically a tendency to not talk about emotions and sort of idealize independence and isolate myself. And, you know, depending on the research,

Starting point is 00:14:25 20-something percent of people are like this. We're talking about love. And my guest is Laura Mucha. She's author of the book, Love Understood, The Science of Who, How, and Why We Love. This is an ad for BetterHelp. Welcome to the world. Please read your personal owner's manual thoroughly. In it, you'll find simple instructions for how to interact with your fellow human beings and how to find happiness and peace of mind. Thank you, and have a nice life. Unfortunately, life doesn't come with an owner's manual. That's why there's BetterHelp Online Therapy.

Starting point is 00:14:58 Connect with a credentialed therapist by phone, video, or online chat. Visit BetterHelp.com to learn more. That's BetterHelp.com. This winter, take a trip to Tampa on Porter Airlines. Enjoy the warm Tampa Bay temperatures and warm Porter hospitality on your way there. All Porter fares include beer, wine, and snacks and free fast-streaming Wi-Fi on planes with no middle

Starting point is 00:15:25 seats. And your Tampa Bay vacation includes good times, relaxation, and great Gulf Coast weather. Visit flyporter.com and actually enjoy economy. So Laura, it seems I know a lot of people, and I think it's a fairly common experience that, who are single for a long time and they see their married friends go, you know, that looks great. So then they get married and then they get married and they go, oh man, I wish I was single again. You know, the grass is always greener on the other side and it's like we want that companionship, but it seems like we're not very good at finding how to make it work.

Starting point is 00:16:08 So I interviewed this guy called Noel, who was in his 80s and he was an Irishman. And I interviewed him while he was with his wife going for a walk and she had severe dementia. And throughout the interview, she would say, who is this lady that we're speaking to and he very patiently would explain oh this is Lauren Bukowee she's interviewing me for this book do you remember and she didn't remember and during the interview he said listen it's really easy to think that the grass is greener but my question is what's the grass like in winter and I think it's such a good point and it's not just about relationships it's about everything you know um And it's not just about relationships, it's about everything, you know? So like with COVID, I know a lot, there's been a lot of talk of people deciding to like run out of cities and, you know, massive life changes. But

Starting point is 00:16:56 what is that grass-like when it's winter? I think it's really, really important question. The benefits to being in a relationship though, and I guess this is more argument for the fact that maybe we're not supposed to be all by ourselves. The benefits of being in a relationship are more than just emotional, right? You know, if you're in long-term relationship or marriage, the stats suggest that you have better health and that is stronger for men than it is for women. They don't know why. Maybe it's because, you know, female partners in heterosexual relationships moan at their male partners to go to the doctor. Who knows? They don't know. The researchers don't know. There's loads of benefits, but there are also massive

Starting point is 00:17:40 benefits to being single in research and to people who are single. People have said, you know, actually, I really like being able to spend my money as I like. I like not being nagged. I like feeling independent. And so, you know, there are advantages to both. I think the main thing is to just try and make whatever decision you're making be a conscious one. Well, the way we've been talking so far, we've really been using, I guess, love and marriage almost as if they're interchangeable. But what about people who are not married but are together? Is there any reason to think that they're happier or they're less happy or it doesn't matter or what?

Starting point is 00:18:21 Yeah, I definitely, I apologize if I've been equating them to the same thing, because also there's plenty of marriages where there's not very much love and plenty of relationships where people aren't married, but there's loads of love. So it was really interesting for me to interview people from different countries about their kind of beliefs and commitment. And there are lots of philosophers who argue that your belief in commitment impacts how committed you are. And I think that's true. And I interviewed a lady who lived with her partner and she had absolutely no intention of getting married to him. They'd been together for 12 years. And, you know, her view was, you know what, I'm with him for life.

Starting point is 00:19:04 I just don't want to get married I don't want to spend the money on a wedding um I find it really annoying that that's the sort of societal expectation just no but then you know another guy that I interviewed who had um got married and proposed you know just after a thunderstorm in Asia it was all very romantic he said you know what this marriage might not last I'm a realist so you've got very different approaches um and you know in the philosophy of commitment there's a benefit to making practical commitments so like the harder it is basically to leave the more committed you are on the whole. And of course, that has a downside too, because if you're in a really unhappy or dysfunctional relationship, the harder it is

Starting point is 00:19:50 to leave, the harder it is to leave. But you can also have another form of commitment, which is personal commitment, which is just, you know, feeling really like you want to be in this relationship and that you are committed, even though you don't have a ring on your finger. And you can also make those practical commitments without getting married, you know, buying a home together, having a child together, for example. They're all massive forms of commitment. What's the big takeaway here? What is it when the dust all settles and you look at this subject, I mean, are we good at it? Are we not good at it? Do we need it? What's your take on this? On the whole, in the last 40 years, across many countries, marriage has been going

Starting point is 00:20:35 down and divorce has been going up. But yet, if you question a huge number of people, irrespective of their sexuality, on the whole, most people say they want, not all, but most, say they want a long-term monogamous relationship. So on that basis, we're not doing very well at it. I think there are a number of contributing factors to that. Lots of people have pontificated that the decline of religion, for example, makes us pile all that expectation onto love or the decline of community, for example, or consumerism. The fact that you can go shopping for the absolute perfect pair of jeans and, you know, select from thousands of options. And then suddenly you can go and select from thousands of options of people and online dating it sort of commodifies people in a way and you know one argument is that this encourages us to have unrealistic expectations and we know from plenty of research on this subject that unrealistic expectations are bad news. You know, people who

Starting point is 00:21:45 have unrealistic expectations are less happy in their relationships, less likely to see a therapist if something goes wrong, more likely to think that the answer lies in finding someone else. And so it becomes all about the object. It's all about the pair of genes, you know, but humans aren't a pair of genes. In a relationship with someone else, there's not just you and the other person. There's the interaction between you. To some extent, the image of the single person, like they're somehow incomplete. That really what they need is to find someone and get married. And that being single, you know, that's like a temporary status.

Starting point is 00:22:24 But, you know, to be whole, you need to be part of a couple. Sociologists did a review of films and basically decided that single people come out of films looking really miserable and lonely. And I think there's a lot that we could be doing. And I think part of the issue is that we sort of expect to have these amazing relationships, but don't necessarily put the time and effort into them either as individuals or as a society. Yeah. Well, I think that's a really good point you just made there. And what you said about, you know, online dating, I mean, so often there's talk of, you know, finding your soulmate and there's that special one out there somewhere for you. And what do you say about that?

Starting point is 00:23:06 Do you think that we can be happy with lots of different people, depending on who we happen to come across? Or is there one special person or what? There's a lot of research on this, and it's actually mostly U.S.-based. There's something like 88% of people in their 20s who were single in one study thought that there was just one other person out there waiting for them. And I think this is a really dangerous idea because first of all, it puts the emphasis on the other person, that there is just one soulmate and that's it. You just need to find them. Job done, tick, I can relax, found

Starting point is 00:23:43 them. But also when it's not about that it's about you know hard work as I've said and the interaction between two people and everything else but also what what does that mean for people who are bereaved you know like what so your friend who's just lost their partner what I'm sorry you're doomed you've lost your soulmate that's it alone forever now you know philosophically speaking I don't really believe in it as a position but also mathematically speaking it just makes no sense like if you can have only one soulmate who's to say that that soulmate would be you know in even vaguely in your age range or even vaguely in the same like continent as you do it just it makes absolutely no sense and i actually think it's quite a dangerous idea you have interviewed

Starting point is 00:24:34 you know so many hundreds and hundreds of people about their relationships and about love is there anything that anybody ever said to you that really stuck with you is like yeah this is it this is this guy gets it or this woman gets it this argentinian farmer where it all began this whole project began he said you know what love is like cultivating crops you have to cultivate love it's not about the big things it's about the little things and then he explained that on a Sunday his wife didn't work but he did and so he would make her pan and tostadas so um sorry tea and tostadas so tea and toast basically to say to kind of show that he cared and I really like this comparison of of relationships to crops except what we are expecting is to have these like phenomenal crops but we're not,

Starting point is 00:25:25 we're not really watering them or doing anything to look after them. We just sort of think they'll just magically grow without any input whatsoever. Yeah. I, I just have a feeling that that is one of the biggest problems in relationships today is that people are so busy in their own head that they just think the relationship will just take care of itself. And like you said, just like crops, that's impossible. Well, also, I think added to that a slight short-termism. So when it's not for everyone, not for everyone, but for some, when things aren't great in the short term to think, oh, well, that's it. That's doomed. A sort of disposability, I guess. I don't even know if that's a word, but, you know, oh, well, that's not great. I'll have to upgrade. When actually,

Starting point is 00:26:17 if you look at your crops, you know, sometimes they won't do that well, but they will do well in the future if you care for them. Well, this has been an interesting and I would say somewhat refreshing look at the topic of love. Laura Mucha has been my guest and the name of her book is Love Understood, The Science of Who, How and Why We Love. And you'll find a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks for coming on, Laura. Do you know you asked the most brilliant questions and it was really thought-provoking. So thank you.

Starting point is 00:26:48 It was really, really brilliant. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet.

Starting point is 00:27:11 Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly

Starting point is 00:27:39 about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show.

Starting point is 00:28:06 Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the

Starting point is 00:28:45 best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. We're taught from a very early age to be wary of strangers. I mean, the word stranger is made up mostly of the word strange. Strangers are strange people. We're suspicious of strangers, and we often keep our distance because, well, well, we just don't know them. Except that everyone's a stranger until they aren't. Your best friend was once a stranger. Even though we're supposed to be wary of strangers, we talk to them all the time, often in just these short interactions at the store or the coffee shop or the airport.

Starting point is 00:29:42 But think about it. At any time, a stranger can come into your life and change everything. Without strangers, life would be pretty dull. Joe Keohane is a journalist who's taken a serious look at strangers and the role they play in your life. And I think you'll find what he has to say really surprising. Joe is author of the book, The Power of Strangers, The Benefit of Connecting in a Suspicious World. Hi, Joe. Thanks, Mike. I'm psyched to be here. Thanks for having me on.

Starting point is 00:30:12 When I started preparing for our conversation and I saw your book, it really got me to thinking about strangers like I haven't really thought about before, that they really are important, more important probably than most people realize. They really are. Yeah. I mean, they're important in terms of meeting new people, developing new relationships, learning new things, gaining kind of valuable alternate perspective on the world. They deliver on a lot of levels. And yet it's very easy. Like, for example, I was on a, on an airplane last week and, you know, I could have talked to the person next to me, but I was tired. It was a long flight. And I didn't bother because and the reasoning that goes on in my head is, you know, I'm never going to see this person again.

Starting point is 00:30:58 I'm just making chit chat, small talk for no, no reason, no benefit for either one of us. So I didn't say anything because I didn't. Yeah. I mean, with all due respect, Mike, you were just doing it wrong. You were looking at it the wrong way. One of the things that I discovered while I was doing this research was small talk is just a way to signal that you are a sane person sharing a space with somebody, right? It's like a doorway to a better conversation. So if you find yourself talking to someone on a plane and it's an incredibly soul crushingly boring exchange, you're just not doing it right. You're not digging in

Starting point is 00:31:36 enough. You're not asking enough questions. You're not being curious enough about the other person. But to your point, yeah, it's definitely when you're tired, it's hard to do because when you're having a conversation with a stranger, it requires a lot of attention more so than if you're talking to like a spouse or a friend because you have no frame of reference. You don't know who this person is. You have to watch their body language. You have to listen more closely than you might with a friend. All these things can make it kind of daunting when you're feeling tired. But most of the time, most of the time that you have those kind of fleeting conversations with strangers, that's it. It's that's the beginning and the end. They go

Starting point is 00:32:12 their way, you go your way and you never see them again. So what was the value? Yeah. I mean, it works at a couple of levels. Research is finding increasingly and only over the last 15 years or so, psychologists begin looking into this, but even passing exchanges can have real benefits for people. So if you have like a little chit chat with your barista at your coffee shop or something, people come away with that according to like this growing body of research, feeling happier, feeling more connected, maybe feeling more trusting, maybe feeling more optimistic, depending on where the conversation went. So even passing interactions can actually be pretty valuable. The problem is

Starting point is 00:32:50 when they just don't go anywhere, when you're sitting with someone for a long time and you just keep going back and forth on the kind of script of like, what do you do? Where are you from? And you're just kind of filling time. You know what I mean? You're not actually being inquisitive. You're not actually being curious about the person, but the fleeting nature of it is actually really valuable. There's also a great deal of research on what they call the strangers on a train effect, which is people can be really surprisingly unguarded and candid and forthcoming when they're talking to a stranger,

Starting point is 00:33:17 they know they'll never see again. And it ends up being kind of therapeutic, you know, to have the chance to really talk to someone, but you don't have to worry about it, like hanging over your head for the rest of your life. You know, if you confess something, not that you're confessing a crime, but if you said something personal to just a stranger on a plane, it's not going to follow you home. Like that person may remember it, but it's never going to come up again. There's no paper trail attached to it. So people actually find that pretty freeing. The benefits that you talk about though, these, these feeling more

Starting point is 00:33:43 optimistic. I mean, these are very fleeting as well, right? I mean, it doesn't make you a more optimistic person because somebody said I would be in less good condition each subsequent day that I didn't do the work. You really do have to work your social muscles in a way. But if you do it on a regular basis, yeah, it looks like it can actually make you a more empathetic person, make you feel a little more connected to the world around you, make you smarter in terms of just hearing new perspectives and gaining new ideas and innovations and things like that. It has to be kind of a lifestyle. It has to be like exercise. I mean, that's the best way I can think about it.

Starting point is 00:34:29 It's like diet or exercise. And we're social animals, and we should think about the way we socialize as like a part of our diet. It's the thing that helps keep us healthy. And talking to strangers can be like a good part of that diet. Well, I think to some extent, people think that the purpose of talking to strangers is you talk to – that that is not an end in and of itself. That the purpose of talking to strangers is to see where it might go. And it might not go anywhere.

Starting point is 00:34:57 In fact, it probably often most of the time doesn't go anywhere. But that that is the underlying purpose. Even though you know, like, you know, I know this guy sitting next to me on the plane. I'm never going to see him again. It's not like we're going to bond over Minneapolis and become lifelong friends. You know, that's just not going to happen. But there is that kind of sense that maybe this guy could, you know, we could do business together or we could do. You never know that there's always this potential of more. You know, I spent some time with a guy

Starting point is 00:35:31 by the name of Theodore Zeldin, who's like this legendary English historian. And he talked about talking to strangers or he framed it as like a form of adventure or travel or exploration. So, you know, to your point, if I go to Minneapolis and I don't decide to stay in Minneapolis, does that mean that I should have never gone to Minneapolis? You know, like taking that trip, kind of exploring someone else's life carries its own rewards, both in terms of like giving you a sense of how life is for other people, but also for you kind of questing, kind of indulging your curiosity, working those social muscles. It's actually, you know, pretty beneficial, even though social muscles, it's actually pretty beneficial,

Starting point is 00:36:05 even though it might be completely fleeting and you might never see that person again. It's not uncommon to hear people say that they don't like small talk. They don't like chit chat. It bores them. It's difficult. Why is it difficult? Why do people have a hard time starting conversations with strangers? The hardest thing for a lot of people is a fear that you don't know how to do it, right?

Starting point is 00:36:33 And it's a paralyzing fear. I mean, people look at this as like with a sense of terror in a lot of ways. And research has backed this up too. There've been a lot of surveys asking people why they don't do this. And they all just said, I worry I don't know how to do it. I won't know what to say. I worry people won't like me, all this stuff, all these like impediments to these sorts of connections. But what they find is that once they're comfortable, it comes easily to them, which really shouldn't be a surprise. I mean, we're a hyper social

Starting point is 00:36:57 species. We, civilization happened because we are able to make these connections. You know, civilization is like groups of different people living together. We do have the capacity to do this. It's basically an inborn capacity. If you can get past the anxieties associated with it, you can do it. So, you know, Gillian Sandstrom, who's this great psychologist in England at the University of Essex, did a lot of work on this. And she would hold events and people would come in and they would be milling around and

Starting point is 00:37:21 they'd feel really awkward and weird about the whole thing and to be anxious about it. And then she would say within five minutes, like they would ring the bell, tell people, like give people a list of questions to talk about or topics to talk about. And within five minutes, they would be into it. And before they knew it, the event was over an hour and a half had passed and they had like a really enjoyable conversation. And they were reassured that they actually did have the skills to do this, that this is kind of an innate ability. And, you know, some people are better at it than others, but for sure. It's really not that difficult once you start doing it and what are the what are some of those skills like if someone who's listening to you said okay

Starting point is 00:37:53 so what do i say how do you do it how do you how do you know the other person's even interested why don't they go first why am i why do i have to go first what what's the skill yeah i mean some people do go first. And your job, if you want to do this thing, practice talking to strangers, is just not to be annoyed or turn away when they do and to dig in and be curious. But a lot of it is the biggest component of talking to strangers has nothing to do with talking. So the entryway to these conversations involve noticing and they involve listening. So if you're in an event, you can comment on the event and then you can talk about the event. And then by just sheer magic of human psychology, you'll circle around and you'll find something that you have in common. I mean, we've

Starting point is 00:38:38 all had that experience at parties where you just put in a room with someone and within a couple of minutes or so, you might know someone in common. You might both be into baseball. You might be into whatever. It happens. We look for that stuff. We ferret that stuff out. So noticing something initially is really important. You could notice something that they're doing, something that they said. You could notice their shoes. You could notice an event you're sitting at. And then once you start talking, and this was really hard for me, listening. Listening is the whole game. So if you want to take a small talk conversation to a deeper conversation, more meaningful conversation, you're not going to do it by big footing the other person. You're not going to do it by talking the person down. You're not going to do it by just talking about yourself the whole time. You need to listen to what they're saying. And this is intimidating for people because what it means is that you're relinquishing control over the conversation. And, you know, over the last 20 years or so, we're so accustomed to having total control over our conversations via text, via email, you know, mainly through digital communication. You can plan your response. You can think things

Starting point is 00:39:37 through. You can respond when you want. But when you're in like a live fire situation, it's really hard to just drop the reins and let the other person take the lead. And once you learn how to do that, you know, you'll just kind of let them talk and you can ask open-ended questions. I mean, Mike, you're a great interviewer, so you know how this works. You ask who questions and why questions and how questions and that sort of thing. And you just listen for hints of who they are, what motivates them, what their background is, what they love to do, what they hate to do, all that stuff. But I feel like noticing something and then listening to what they say and really listening will open a lot of doors. And in time, you'll learn something you didn't know about this

Starting point is 00:40:13 person. And also at the same time, you'll get a chance to talk about yourself. It can't just be an interrogation. You'll find that you have something in common, or maybe the thing you have in common is just that you're really interested in an experience they had or something that they had done. I guess the thing that more introverted people or people closer to that end of the scale think when they hear you say that is, but to what end? Like, so what if I get to know this person or I learned something about them? What is I, what is that doing for me? Just because I can now talk to this guy who most likely I'll never see again. Yeah. Yeah. I get, I get the cynicism surrounding it. A lot of people think that. What you get is,

Starting point is 00:41:00 you know, on the individual level, like I said, you get this feeling of happiness from having like a connection. You get a feeling of happiness from having a connection. You get a feeling of belonging. You have the feeling that maybe if you had a really pleasant interaction with someone, maybe you feel a little bit better about people. This is not permanent. It doesn't stay forever if you only talk to one person, but there are individual benefits to doing it. But on a deeper level, as a citizen of a democracy or just the citizen of the world in general, it's hugely valuable to get a glimpse of the experiences of other people, right? Particularly if their lives are different than ours, to understand that your reality is not everybody's reality, to understand

Starting point is 00:41:34 that like this room may represent something totally different to someone else than it does to you. And I think if you do that enough and you make enough of an effort to understand people whose lives are different than you are, you become a wiser person. You become a more empathetic person, you know, because it robs you of the ability to be, to have a really simplistic notion of what people are and what motivates them and what they're like and what they want. It forces you, it confronts you with the complexity of human beings in general, if you do it well, you know, and I think that's, that's the road to wisdom right there. I've always found it to be interesting to talk to strangers. I get, I guess it's, it's a lot of that sense of not what could this person do for me, but what, where could this go? And I guess the example that that's in my head and has been since I was a child, my father met a guy on a train going into New York City.

Starting point is 00:42:32 And never saw the guy before, met him, and it changed the entire trajectory of everyone in our family because that guy ended up hiring my father. We ended up moving to England. Changed everything just because of this happenstance meeting on a train. And then I think about the events in my life and where my life has gone. A lot of it has been because of these random meetings with people I didn't know before that changed the trajectory of my career my life where i went where i moved it's it's happened so often to me and i assume to everybody else yeah i mean when you really think about it it's kind of an interesting exercise to do right to like think back over the major events of your life and think of the things that needed to happen in order to set up that sequence, right? It's like that movie sliding doors, the same thing. Like if one of those things changed, if you were 20 minutes late, would

Starting point is 00:43:31 you be on a totally different trajectory? Maybe you would be, maybe you wouldn't be, but you realize the importance of chance and you do realize the importance of just interacting with new people and new contexts and how that can open a lot of doors. You know, for me, when I was in college, I was a bass player before I was a writer and I was in a music store one day and I was just playing the bass. And all of a sudden I feel someone standing over me and I look up and the guy just looks at me and I don't know if I can swear on your show, Mike, but he was just like, expletive deleted. You look like Conan O'Brien. And it was like this trumpet player named Millard who ran a funk band, like a 12 piece funk band,

Starting point is 00:44:05 mostly black musicians. And here I am like an alabaster white kid from Boston. And they hired me in that band. And so in college, I played in like largely black bands and funk bands and gospel bands in neighborhoods that I never would have gone into otherwise. I learned an enormous amount. I made a lot of friends. It was like a formative experience. It was an incredible experience. And had I not gone to the music store that day, that never would have happened. And maybe I would have seen the world differently as a result of losing that chance interaction with somebody. Yeah, there've been like a half a dozen of those in my life that definitively charted the course of my life just through sheer happenstance and through

Starting point is 00:44:39 a willingness to chat with somebody I didn't know. There are times though, where there seems to be like this collective silent agreement, like, you know, on a bus or on the subway or wherever, where everybody walks in already agreeing, shh, we're not talking. Nobody's talking to anybody. Just be quiet. Nobody says anything. We just know no talking. There was some research done by a guy named Nick Epley and a woman named Juliana Schroeder at the University of Chicago. She was then at the University of Chicago. They tried to

Starting point is 00:45:18 get into why people weren't talking to each other on the subway in Chicago, and they replicated this in London later. And what they found is that everybody believed that everyone else didn't want to talk, right? So they believe that people don't want to talk to them. So it was, you know, part of the reason wasn't that I don't want to be talked to. It's also like this kind of intertwined belief that they don't want to talk either. They don't want to talk to me. So they never did. And that's how the kind of social norm formed on the subway. But Epley and Schroeder actually just made hundreds of people, like just signed them up and made them have conversations with strangers during rush hour on the Chicago subway. And all those people, I mean, literally every one of them, not a single one of them was rejected. All of them had

Starting point is 00:45:55 a positive experience. All of them said that they enjoyed their commute more than they did previously when they just sat alone. They enjoyed it more than a control group that just didn't talk to people. Their conversations went longer than they expected them to. They liked the people more than they expected them to. When you do this stuff enough, you do find that it really is enjoyable. And oftentimes it's more enjoyable than just sitting in silence. You have to do it in order to understand it, in order for it to land. Me telling you that will probably be met with skepticism, but I think if people try it enough, they'll actually find that actually is, it's kind of a, kind of a wonderful experience. Well, it's interesting too. One of the reasons we justify to ourselves to not have these

Starting point is 00:46:32 conversations is that, you know, fear of rejection. If you're sitting on a plane and the person next to you says he doesn't want to talk to you and gets kind of grouchy at you, now you're stuck next to him for the next five hours. So, but when I think about, I can't really remember too many times where I've gone up to a stranger in an appropriate setting and, and had them reject me. And when you think how it works, like if someone talks to you, as long as they're not trying to sell you something and they're not harassing you and they seem to be genuinely curious and I can talk a bit about like how you can do this, how you can do this stuff. It's kind of nice. It's kind of nice that someone like asks you a question about something. You have like your bag and they're like, oh, I really like your bag. And I'm looking for a bag myself. Can

Starting point is 00:47:15 you mind telling me where you got it? That kind of means something to you. That's kind of nice. You're like, well, I put effort into this. I bought this thing. I like this thing. And here's someone who appreciates it. I'm like, okay, I'll talk to this person for a bit. People generally do once you get past that initial hump, they'll try to be polite, they'll try to be game, and they might actually appreciate someone being respectful and curious and not being a creep about it. My experience is that there's always a tiny bit of resistance at first. And then once they realize that you're sincere, there's a light behind the eyes. It's a really funny thing to watch, but it's almost like they're like, oh, okay, we're doing this. You've noticed something. We're talking to each other and you're looking me in the eye and you're not being a weirdo.

Starting point is 00:47:55 And okay, okay, I'm game. And then people will really come to life once you get to that point. If I wanted to make myself better at this, what are some things I should know that would, things I could do that would make me better at it? There was a pretty ingenious idea that I got from literally taking this class in London on talking to strangers with a woman named Georgie Nightingale, who's like a communications expert. It was actually a great, pretty great class. Georgie's best idea to me is this idea of the pre-frame. So what the pre-frame is, is you're saying, say you're on a train with somebody and they have glasses and you're looking for glasses and they have glasses that you think are nice glasses. Instead of just saying,

Starting point is 00:48:36 like, I like your glasses, you have to acknowledge that you know that you're breaking the norm, right? And this is actually really powerful because you're on a subway, no one's supposed to talk to each other. And so we're immediately suspicious of people who just like blurt something out and start talking to us. We think that there might be something wrong with them. Like, don't they know that we're not supposed to do this? The pre-frame shows that you know what you're doing, that you're self-possessed, that you have like a functioning mind and that you're overriding any misgiving you might have about the social norm because you're so interested in this person. So you say, look, you can lean over and say, I'm sorry. I know we're not supposed to talk

Starting point is 00:49:09 to people on the subway, but I really like your glasses. I'm in the market for a pair of myself. Do you mind telling me where you got them? Something like that just registers in a very quick way that you're not nuts. The whole point of this game is to demonstrate as quickly as possible that you're not a threat and you're not dangerous and you're not unhinged in some way. But by acknowledging that you know what you're doing and going forward anyways, I find that people kind of appreciate the sort of light audacity of that sort of thing. And it will alleviate the wariness just enough to start a conversation. What else? Another good thing to do is, this is another Georgie Nightingale idea too, which I've used a lot and I find it almost like on the level of magic in terms of how well this

Starting point is 00:49:51 works. So Georgie's idea with the script is when someone asks you a scripted question, answer with specificity. So if someone says like, how are you doing today? Georgie will say, I'd say I'm about a seven out of 10. And then would say, how are you doing today? Georgia will say, I'd say I'm about a seven out of 10. And then would say, how are you doing today? Now, what does this do? This shows that she's engaged, much more engaged than people usually are when they have these kind of mindless interactions. But it also sets the terms for the interaction that's going to follow. Because if someone says to you, I'm a seven out of 10 this morning, and then asks how you are, what are you going to say? You're probably going to say, I'm something out of 10 because she's just said, she's modeled what this thing's going to be. And so someone will say, well, I don't know, I guess, you know,

Starting point is 00:50:31 probably an eight out of 10. And she'll say like, well, what's it going to take to get to get you to a nine today? And this stuff works really well. And what happens when you do that is that you've acknowledged the humanity of the person, right? People who work in service jobs often are just treated like service modules, right? They're barely even human to a lot of people. When you're kind of playful with them and you're asking them a real question and you're treating them like a human being, they'll notice it and they may appreciate it and they may give you a pretty good answer back that surprises you. And you just, in this passing interaction, you get like a little glass bottom boat tour of the life of someone that otherwise you would have paid absolutely no mind to. Well, this whole discussion makes you think because we tend to dismiss the impact strangers

Starting point is 00:51:13 have, but clearly from what you've said, you know, strangers have a huge impact on our lives and it's important that we pay attention and make the most of it. Joe Keohane has been my guest. He's a journalist and author of the book, The Power of Strangers, The Benefits of Connecting in a Suspicious World. And you'll find a link to that book in the show notes. Appreciate you coming on. Thanks, Joe. Mike, thanks so much for having me on. It's been a real pleasure. It's great talking to you. Integrity.

Starting point is 00:51:44 It's defined as the perceived pattern of alignment between words and actions. There is apparently a real payoff to leading a life of integrity, according to researcher Tony Simons. Tony surveyed employees of 76 hotels, all part of the same hotel chain. It was a total of about 6,800 people. He asked each employee to rate the integrity of the hotel manager on a scale of 1 to 10. He then compared those scores to the profitability of each hotel. As you might imagine, the higher the integrity score, the higher the profits for that hotel. But more specifically, when a manager scored one quarter of one percent higher in integrity than another manager, his hotel profits were $250,000 higher.

Starting point is 00:52:37 So a little integrity goes a long way. And that is something you should know. And now that we're at the end of the episode, there's no better time to take a moment and leave a rating and review of this podcast. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Do you love Disney? Do you love top 10 lists? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. The parks, the movies, the music, the food, the lore. There is nothing we

Starting point is 00:53:16 don't cover on our show. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed. I had Danielle and Megan record some answers to seemingly meaningless questions. I asked Danielle, what insect song is typically higher pitched in hotter temperatures and lower pitched in cooler temperatures? You got this. No, I didn't. Don't believe that. About a witch coming true?

Starting point is 00:53:40 Well, I didn't either. Of course, I'm just a cicada. I'm crying. I'm so sorry. Danielle, you didn't either. Of course, I'm Justin. Cicada. I'm crying. I'm so sorry. You win that one. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a co-founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited

Starting point is 00:54:05 to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lightning, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. During her journey, Isla meets new friends, including King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, and learns valuable life lessons with every quest, sword fight, and dragon ride positive and uplifting stories remind us all about the importance of kindness friendship honesty and positivity join me and an all-star cast of actors including liam neeson emily blunt kristin bell chris hemsworth among many others in welcoming the search for the silver lining

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Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: Understanding the Dimensions of Love & The Power of Strangers

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