Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: Why Complainers Complain and How to Stop Them & How Gaslighting Works

Episode Date: November 7, 2020

If you would like to feel really good, then watch this YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHiKxytbCWk. It’s a dull and boring video about folding towels and will make you (or at least many people) get chills and give you a “brain orgasm.” Why? No one really knows for sure but I’ll explain what is known about it as I start this episode. Do you know a complainer? It’s a trick question because you probably know a lot more than one. In fact, you might be a complainer without realizing it. Cianna Stewart has studied the subject of complaining in great detail and even wrote a book on it called, No Complaints: How to Stop Sabotaging Your Own Joy (http://amzn.to/2CNYU1M ). Listen as she reveals why some people complain about every little thing and strategies to stop yourself from complaining and to stop complainers from complaining. A lot of the time you use the word “that” in a sentence, it is totally unnecessary. Oh, and so is “totally” as in totally unnecessary. I’ll have a list of words you probably use that you don’t really need to – in fact you really shouldn’t. https://www.themuse.com/advice/15-words-you-need-to-eliminate-from-your-vocabulary-to-sound-smarter You may have people in your life who “gaslight” you. It is a form of manipulation and it is very toxic. Therapist Robin Stern, author of the book, The Gaslight Effect: How to Spot and Survive the Hidden Manipulation Others Use to Control Your Life (https://amzn.to/2M8RzyP), joins me to explain how it works and how to defend yourself from gaslighters. PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! https://monday.com https://bestfiends.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As a listener to Something You Should Know, I can only assume that you are someone who likes to learn about new and interesting things and bring more knowledge to work for you in your everyday life. I mean, that's kind of what Something You Should Know is all about. And so I want to invite you to listen to another podcast called TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks. Well, you see, TED Talks Daily is a podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday in less than 15 minutes. Join host Elise Hu. She goes beyond the headlines so you can hear about the big ideas shaping our future.

Learn about things like sustainable fashion, embracing your entrepreneurial spirit, the future of robotics, and so much more. Like I said, if you like this podcast, Something You Should Know, I'm pretty sure you're going to like TED Talks Daily. And you get TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts. Today on Something You Should Know, there's a YouTube video you have to watch because it'll make you feel so good you won't believe it. Then the problem with

complainers. They often don't even know they're complaining. I think a lot of people do feel that it's just they're saying things the way that it is, that my life just sucks or this is simply bad. I think that most people are pretty unconscious of the fact that they are complaining. Also, there are some words people use in speech and writing that are usually unnecessary. I'll tell you which ones. And have you ever been the victim of the gaslight effect? The gaslight effect describes what happens to you when you begin to second-guess yourself because you've allowed another person to define your reality

and to erode your sense of self, your confidence, and your judgment, or even their character. All this today on Something You Should Know. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like Something You Should Know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this

issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed, critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know.

Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. So, I just finished watching. Well, I didn't finish it. I watched most of it. It's an 18-minute YouTube video on how to fold towels. And it's narrated by a woman who barely speaks above a whisper.

And about 2 million people have viewed this thing. And it's not because people really need to know how to fold towels. You probably mastered that a while back in your life. Instead, people watch it because an increasing number of people report experiencing something called Autonomous Sensory Meridian Response, or ASMR. It's a whole body tingling sensation that listening to a soft, monotonous voice can trigger. ASMR is a neurological experience that causes people to experience what has been termed a brain orgasm. It's a tingling, pleasurable sensation,

similar to goosebumps, that begins at the head or neck and works its way throughout the body. The most common triggers of this sensation include educational videos, like how to fold a towel, having your hair cut. Yeah, I've had that. I've had that kind of tingly sensation when I've had my hair cut. Feeling empathetic, enjoying music or art, listening to slow, enunciated speech, and experiencing close personal contact. It feels so good that people keep re-watching this incredibly dull video just to have that experience over and over again. What's interesting is that science doesn't recognize this as a real thing. It doesn't ever appear to have been studied or written about scientifically.

And it doesn't happen to everyone. It is a self-reported experience, meaning some people say it happens to them, doesn't happen to everyone, and no one really knows what it is or why. Nevertheless, if it happens to you, it really feels good. There's a link to that video in the show notes. And that is something you should know. I was watching an episode of The Bates Motel on Netflix the other day, and Norma Bates was talking to her son, Norman Bates, and she said something to the effect of, we live in a world filled with complainers.

And it caught my ear because I thought, you know, she's right. I mean, if you pay attention to what the people around you say during a day, a lot of it is complaining. I think we don't realize how much we complain, but I think it's a safe bet that all this complaining isn't doing anybody any good. Because by definition, complaining is talking about a problem without actually doing anything to fix it, which is pretty pointless when you think about it. Sianna Stewart is a documentary filmmaker, and she's a self-described complainer who decided to do something about her own complaining, and she really spent 10 years getting to the bottom of this whole topic. And she's written a book called No Complaints, How to Stop Sabotaging Your Own Joy. Hi, Sianna.

Welcome. Thanks, welcome. Thanks, Mike. I'm glad to be here. So tell me how you got on this journey of stamping out complaining. Well, it started with 10 years ago, I basically got sick of my own complaining. I noticed that my life was going really, really well, but I actually hadn't noticed because I kept complaining mostly about a relationship that I had had that had a disastrous breakup several months before the moment when I noticed my own complaining. And I realized I kept complaining about that relationship, which got in the way of me seeing that my friends were very supportive, that where I was living was great, that my job was great. And I decided to stop putting all of my energy into that past obsession and refocus myself on what was going on right here and now. But when I decided to stop complaining, I noticed that it

was actually very, very difficult. And I kind of had to keep quiet instead of saying anything, because the thing that immediately came to mind all the time was a complaint. And then when I was being quiet, I noticed that a lot of other people complained, pretty much everyone, and that people were complaining about complainers. And that's what really caught my interest, that it seemed that so many people were doing something that pretty much everyone hated. And I got really curious about why. Well, I've certainly noticed that there is a lot of complaining in the world, and then there is a lot of people who complain about the complainers and their complaining.

Do we have a sense of how many people would fall in the category of chronic complainers? That's a very hard thing to give a number to, partially because complaining hasn't formally been studied in any way. What I have noticed is that there are a lot of people in the world who are chronic complainers, habitual complainers, especially, you know, I'm an American and here we have a culture of complaining. It's so unconscious that people don't know that they are complainers and other people are talking about them, essentially behind their backs or gossiping about them. And they're unaware of why they're getting ostracized or people, you know, it's hard to get close to them. Do you think that complainers, chronic complainers, know that they're a member of that group? Or do chronic complainers tend to be people who just think

that they're just commenting on life, that that's the way they see the world in very negative terms? I think a lot of people do feel that it's just they're saying things the way that it is, that my life just sucks, or this is simply bad. And I think that most people are pretty unconscious of the fact that they are complaining. When they say things, they just say, that's just the way it is. That's just how I am. Why do you suppose, if you have a sense of this, how this starts? Does it start in childhood? Is it the result of just, you know, living in a negative environment where you just start to see the world negatively? Does it serve a purpose? Do some people think, well, you know, if I complain, I'm being a

critical thinker and that makes me look smart. I mean, where does it come from? You're touching on several points that I think are actually where this comes from. One of them, so a lot of the work that I was doing is trying to extrapolate from other scientific studies. And so some of the work is about explanatory style, which is how you say the world is treating you and whether or not you're basically expressing things in an optimistic or a negative way. And do you think that the world is likely to be nice to you or horrible to you? And that actually really comes from your family of origin. Wherever you were raised, you learn that way of explaining how the world treats you from the people that

raised you. But there's also something else, which is that we are really used to using complaints as small talk and as a way of bonding. And so even however you explain things to yourself, a lot of people, you know, you go out for drinks and complain about your job or about, you know, politics or about your family or whatever. And that's sort of just normalized. And I think that we just learn over time that that's how you interact. You show up at a party and as you're taking off your coat, you complain about the parking or traffic or whatever. And so I think that we have to actually break social norms in order to be able to stop complaining. Do you think that the typical complainer would agree if I said to them,

you know, you're a real complainer? Or would they take offense and say, no, I'm not? I think most people would take offense at being told that they were a complainer. But there's also a lot of people who start to recognize that they are negative. I find that especially if you were in a relationship that was struggling or if you got some, you know, now we're in the world of 360 feedback at work, you start to learn that people see you as being negative. And I think that the common way of referring to being negative is just saying that you're a complainer. So I think directly calling

somebody out, they would get offended. But more and more people are recognizing themselves as complainers, especially once you start to get into some specific examples, like, you know, somebody who says all the time, oh, I'm so cold, but they do nothing about it. Then that's... Well, we all know those people. Oh, it's so cold in here. Every day it's cold. Well, put on a sweater. Try that, you know, do something about it.

And that's the thing, right? It's really complaining is, as you were saying earlier, it's really just talking about the problem with nothing about the solution. That's exactly right. And that's what gets so frustrating and what's exhausting to the people who are listening to the person who's complaining a lot. And that's really the target of this entire effort is to move people from complaining to problem solving, to being more active participants in their lives and to having a greater skill set as well as an attitude towards knowing that they

can tackle the things that are bothering them. But if, as you say, complainers don't recognize themselves as complainers, how are you ever going to get them to pay attention when they don't even think they are the target of what you're talking about? You have definitely struck on one of the problems about writing something for people who aren't looking for a solution. Right, yeah, they're right. However, there's a lot of people who actually are looking for a solution, especially if you know that your relationship feels strained, or your workplace is unhappy, or the classroom is, you know, really resistant, or those sorts of environments where people, there's some, at least maybe one person who recognizes that there's

a problem. What I advocate is creating what I call a no-co zone as a way of getting people to become more aware of their own patterns. So you can declare in any environment that you're in control of, like at your home, in your dinner table, maybe you're inside your car that you're the driver in your office if you're a manager or something like that. Say this particular time or this particular location is a no complaining zone. I also invite people to create no-co clubs, say that, you know, okay, let's all do this together. A really great example, there was a woman who has two kids that were like in fourth grade and third grade. And I met her at a party, this was several years ago. And a year later, I saw her, it was a holiday party, so I saw her again at my friend's house.

And she said, oh, my God, I have to tell you what happened. I got inspired by your idea. I went home and I told my kids, because I'm so tired of my kids complaining all the time. I told my kids that dinner time and from when I got home from work, that this was going to be a no complaining zone. It was going to be no complaining time. And, you know, I was expecting them to fight back, but they got super excited and they said, oh, that sounds great. And it was in that moment that she realized that she was also a complainer and was, they heard her as a single

mom on the phone with her friends complaining about how exhausted she was or her job or the kids or whatever. I kind of invite everybody to join in and say, hold themselves accountable. We're talking about complaining and complainers who complain and people who complain about complainers who complain. And my guest is Sianna Stewart. She is author of the book, No Complaints, How to Stop Sabotaging Your Own Joy. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a co-founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at How to stop sabotaging your own joy. young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. During her journey, Isla meets new friends, including King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, and learns valuable life lessons with every quest, sword fight, and dragon ride. Positive and uplifting stories remind us all about the importance of kindness, friendship,

honesty, and positivity. Join me and an all-star cast of actors, including Liam Neeson, Emily Blunt, Kristen Bell, Chris Hemsworth, among many others, in welcoming the Search for the Silver Lining podcast to the Go Kid Go Network by listening today. Look for the Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on

science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts.

So, Sienna, isn't it interesting how when you stop and think about the people in your life that you look up to and that you like to be around and who are fun to be with, nobody says, oh God, complain some more. Tell me what else is wrong. Tell me how the rest of your life is all screwed up. Everybody loves the guy who's Mr. Positive, Mr. Wonderful, Mr. Who's interested in me and how's it going. And yet we don't see that. We don't see that my complaining is driving people away. That's exactly right. And I feel that people also tend to, for whatever reason, we've associated being cynical with being smart and being positive with being naive. And so people feel like, oh, I can't sound too positive because then I'll just sound dumb. Really? Yeah. Or there's like some kind of ways like, oh, it just feels so cheesy to be all happy all the time.

And I'm like, well, and maybe I have a, you know, I have an urban bias. I've been raised in cities. And so that's, it's very much an urban trait, but this overall sense of like, oh, I don't want to be Pollyanna-ish. I mean, you know, when you say no complaining, do you mean like you think that the world is perfect or something, or like, you're not really noticing that things are actually crazy? And I'm like, no, actually that's exactly the opposite. I, I don't want to sit around and complain without fixing what's going wrong out there um I think it's a eyes wide open approach to the world but yeah I it really is true that if you if you look at it people think that um

oh there's an assumption that if you're super positive that you're probably either ignorant or naive but those people who say that who who say that, well, you know, I don't want to be positive all the time because that's not, that doesn't make me look smart. Those people don't like being around complainers. I mean, you can probably try to out-complain a complainer and they would go, oh my God, this person is just so negative. Well, you know, it's just a more intense flavor of you. It's just, it's just, it's like, nobody likes this. It's not productive. It doesn't do anything, except maybe, as you said earlier, it's kind of a way to bond. Oh God, the traffic and the bond.

But that's not really, don't you think that those kinds of complaints of, you know, oh, the weather's bad or the traffic's bad i mean those are kind of water off a duck's back kind of complaints it's not that that's so bothersome it's the everything you know it's what's wrong now tell me what's wrong now yeah that's the kind of thing that wears on people it's always what's wrong now that That's exactly right. And you're totally right that what we, the people that we want to hang out with are not the people that are saying what's wrong now all the time. And that it's, you start to pull away from people who are, I like that, what's wrong now? You know, you pull away from them. You don't even want to ask them like, hey, how's it

going? Because you just know that you're going to get a storm right yeah that's like the last thing you would want to ask them because you know here it comes well let me tell you what's wrong now and what was wrong yesterday and then it's like so you don't even want to talk to them there's two things going on in almost every complaint one of them is you can pretty much rewrite a complaint as, wow, I wish reality wasn't happening. I like that. Yeah, it's just like, oh, this is reality. I hate it. And, you know, well, it's reality. So that's where you are living right now. Just like that's just being aware of what is true. And the other thing is that most of the time, people who are chronic complainers are basically in a monologue. They're

just talking about themselves and what they care about and what's bothering them. And they don't really have much empathy or even awareness of the person that they're talking to. They're, you know, as you say, no matter what is going on, no matter what, you know, time of day or anything, you ask them anything and it's going to come back with a, this is what's happening and it's terrible. And after a while they get really isolated because, you know, who wants to give that person a call on the phone or who wants to invite that person along on a vacation or even over for dinner because they're just going to be complaining right and then that then they'll just complain about like nobody calls me everybody i don't understand but they're they're dumb but there's

also the the complainer and maybe this is all part of the same thing but there's even complainers who in a positive situation you know we, we are, we're all going to the baseball game and everybody's having a good time, but that person always finds the one thing that didn't go right. And they don't enjoy the game because, or they don't enjoy the moment because it's almost as if they're looking for something to go wrong. That's so true. One of the more weird things that I've noticed, you know, because of course I'm now attuned to this all the time, is a lot of people when they come back from a vacation, you know, it's a really amazing trip. They were gone for a week or two weeks in this incredible place. And you say, how was your

vacation? And they say, oh, it was really great, except the hotel did this thing. And they spent a long time telling you a horrible part of the vacation, whether it was the way there, the way back, the hotel, the something, some singular incident. And then I'll say, how was the rest of your vacation? They're like, oh, it was amazing. It was da-da-da. But if I didn't ask that follow-up question, they wouldn't have talked about it. Yeah, right. And I think you're right. It's as if we just look for the thing that's negative.

That's somehow our comfortable place of speaking. This all kind of begs the question, because I mean, I don't want to sit here and sound like I never complain. I complain plenty. And I'm sure you do too, maybe less than you used to. So what's the difference or where's the line between, you know, normal life complaints and being a chronic habitual complainer? I mean, I know it's all very different and all, but what's your sense just, you know, generally speaking, if you're complaining how much, I mean, you're complaining too much?

I do feel that a lot of the chronic complaining is linked to a sense of your own personal power, your sense of empowerment or ability to change things in your world. So the more that you feel stuck as if you don't have choices anymore, the more likely that you're going to get into this chronic mode. So this feeling of being stuck in a job or a relationship or a health problem is going to predispose you to being in a chronic point of view. In every situation, we do have a choice. We have a choice to make a change or accept what's happening. But the chronic complainer is stuck in that middle zone, which is neither of those, which is I'm not changing anything, but I don't like it. And I'm going to keep talking about it and not accept it.

And that's the thing that is terrible for their health and for their mental well-being, as well as for the relationships around them. And everybody knows that when you have a problem that you complain about, taking action to fix it feels pretty good. I mean, it certainly beats sitting there whining about it. When you take action, you feel more empowered, you feel like you're doing something, and it's working towards fixing it rather than just sit there and moan and groan and make everybody else upset who's sick and tired of listening to your complaining. That's exactly right. Even taking a small step

gives you energy and it makes you feel more powerful. The small step can simply be making That's exactly right. even that is an action, and that is enough to start to break the cycle of resisting what is happening and feeling stuck, basically. And any sense of forward movement will build on itself and make it more and more possible to make the change at the other end. Well, it's a message I think is so needed when you think about all the time that we waste complaining about what's wrong, not doing anything to fix the problem, and driving people away in the process. Wouldn't it be great if everyone just complained a little less? Sienna Stewart has been my guest. She is author of the book, No Complaints, How to Stop

Sabotaging Your Own Joy. There's a link to her book in the show notes for this episode. Thanks, Sienna. Thank you. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle.

On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong?, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice.

Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong? And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. feel wrong all the time. There's actually a name for that. It's gaslighting. It's the way people manipulate you, and it's really fascinating. Therapist Robin Stern coined the term gaslighting, and she wrote a book about it called The Gaslight Effect,

How to Spot and Survive the Hidden Manipulation Others Use to Control Your Life. Hi, Robin. So explain the essence of the gaslight effect. The gaslight effect describes what happens to you when you begin to second guess yourself because you've allowed another person to define your reality and to erode your sense of self, your confidence, and your judgment. Gaslighting is a form of manipulation that consciously or unconsciously seeks to sow seeds of doubt in the individual who's being targeted or members of a group. With the hope that those people who are being targeted will ultimately question their own memory, perception, and sanity, or even their character. So give me an example.

Let's say you say to me, I'm going to meet you tonight at 7 o'clock. And I say, great. Then I show up and it's 7 o'clock and it's 7.30 and it's a quarter to 8 and you are late and you apologize and I say, no problem. And then it happens again tomorrow and then it happens the next time.

And I say to you, you know what? I really don't like the fact that you're keeping me waiting and you're late so much of the time. And you say to me, what is your problem? You're so uptight about time. Who hasn't had that happen? Everybody's got that person in their life that nothing's ever their fault. It's your fault because you're like, you're so uptight about time. I love that. So exactly right.

And so it's about deflecting responsibility, not taking responsibility. It's also about never really addressing the issue. I often tell a story that goes like this. I say to my friend, or you may say to your friend, hey, you know what? Really been trying to make plans with you, and it's really hard. Did I do something? Are you upset with me about something that happened, or is there some reason that we're not getting together? Hey, come on. you are so sensitive. And you know what?

Maybe I am so sensitive, but that still doesn't change the fact that you haven't been wanting to make plans. It still doesn't change the fact that you didn't address what I said to you. Right? And so things don't get resolved and things continue to stay in the loop where you, the victim or the target of gaslighting, are beginning to question yourself. So that over time, you're thinking, well, initially you might have been thinking, wait a minute, you didn't answer my question. Over time, you're thinking, you know what, I'm so sensitive. Maybe somebody else wouldn't be so uptight about that.

Maybe somebody else would have just let it go. And it happens in any kind of relationship. The pairing that I've seen most often is women talking about the men in their life gaslighting them. But I certainly have seen women talking about their friends or men talking about women gaslighting them or people talking about their family members engaging in this kind of psychological manipulation. So you've mentioned that this is a problem when things happen over time, which I suspect means that you can't make a big deal necessarily about one instance of this. If you're 15 minutes late, well, you're 15 minutes late.

But if you're 15 minutes or half an hour late every single time, that's when it becomes a problem. You're exactly right, Mike. So the three stages that I identified after working with people for many years and noticing this dynamic were the first stage being disbelief, the second being defense, and the third being depression. So an example of disbelief is you're on a movie line or you're walking down the street and somebody says hello to you and you say hello back. And the person you're with, your boyfriend at the time, may say, or your girlfriend, why are you flirting with that person?

Or don't you see how he's flirting with you? And you think, God, he's being so silly. That's kind of crazy. And you dismiss it and you say, oh, don't be silly. That's not happening. But then every single time you go out and somebody says hello to you on the street, your boyfriend or girlfriend accuses you of flirting or tells you you're being naive if you don't know that somebody is flirting with you. And over time, you get caught up because the relationship is so important to you, because you believe in the person. In some way, you've given them power to assert their reality, and you start to defend yourself.

So now you've moved from disbelief, like that's kind of silly, to defense. And you're saying, don't be silly. You know, no, it's not really happening. Can't you see I'm just being friendly, and I at people and I always like to be friendly. And then when that continues over time and you're caught up in ruminating, you're also beginning to stop reaching out to your social circles because they're arguing with you about your boyfriend or your girlfriend's perception. And you're staying in the relationship and buying into that dynamic and you begin to get depressed. And in the third stage, you're staying in the relationship and buying into that dynamic, and you begin to get depressed. And in the third stage, you're almost trying to make his or her case.

Well, I am actually flirting. Well, you know, can't I just own it? Like, I really, I was smiling. Maybe I didn't realize I was flirting. He's probably right. And so that's a drastic oversimplification, but it is the progression. So in the first case, something happens and you're right. You're not making a big deal about it. It happened once. It sounds so silly and it's not really who you are. In the

second case, you're defending who you are. And in the third stage, depression, you've fallen so deeply into this dynamic that you begin to argue his side. All of the examples that you've fallen so deeply into this dynamic that you begin to argue his side. All of the examples that you've given to illustrate the point, and it's smart to do this, to illustrate points, are very black and white. There's no culpability on the one person. I mean, the guy that's accusing you of flirting is really being a jerk because you're not flirting. But there's a lot of gray areas in real life where maybe, yeah, maybe you were a little too flirty this time.

So it isn't always that black and white. It isn't always that black and white. And often the thing that, or the accusation that leads the gaslighting is something that's true of you. Maybe you were, in fact, flirting. Maybe you were more friendly than you might be if it were somebody who you didn't have that kind of energy with. But to be slammed with or accused about something that you were doing

rather than your friend or partner saying, hey, you know what, I was uncomfortable with the way you looked at that guy. Can we talk about it? That's a very different conversation. That's a very different lead to a dynamic where then you're having conversation about what did he feel? What did I feel? What was I doing? Gee, I didn't want to make you uncomfortable. Rather than you, rather than somebody saying, being on your side of the net and telling you what you were doing in a way that then you need to defend yourself. It's very hard to walk away from that dynamic. When you are caught up in wanting to make sure that your friend, your boyfriend, your girlfriend doesn't think ill of you,

it's really hard to walk away. It's really hard to stop the power struggle and say, you know what, we're just not going to agree about this. Or, you know, maybe I gave them a little extra smile. It's okay. Do you think that people who do this, who gaslight, who manipulate this way, know what they're doing? Or this is just their way of communicating that's very manipulative?

I mean, what's the difference between influence and manipulation? Yeah, so that's a really good point. I'll answer it by starting with telling you where I got the title from. So in 1944, there was a very popular movie called Gaslight, starring Charles Boyer and Ingrid Bergman, where the husband in the movie diabolically manipulates his wife with the intention of ultimately stealing her inheritance and sending her to a mental institution. So in that case, he really was out to prove that she was crazy. So he would literally manipulate objects in the house and then she would notice that they were moved and or they were missing and ask him about them. And he said, no, no, no, you're making it up. Or he would move objects and then ask her where they were. And she wouldn't know because he had moved them. And she began to think she was losing her mind, which is

what he was telling her. Oh, you're so forgetful. You know you're not feeling well. You know you haven't been yourself. And over time, with all these missing objects and his manipulation, she began to think that, including the manipulation of the old English gaslight in the house, which is where the movie got its name. And in that case, there is an intent to undermine the person. But often, it's not that intentional. It's often not that diabolical. It's just the way you learned how to do it. So when I'm uncomfortable, I can either take a deep breath, notice my feelings, name my feelings, manage my feelings, and talk from that place of wherever I am or whatever I see is going on. doing right, or the way you should be acting, or something about you, undermining you rather than

talking about myself. And oftentimes when somebody who's doing gaslighting is triggered, in order for them to regain their psychological stability, they will engage in this kind of behavior where they're controlling the dynamic by asserting that their reality is right and there's something wrong with you. Well, we all like to think our reality is right. It is right for us. That's our reality. So, sure, we're trying to, we want them, it would be so much easier if the whole world would see it, see the world the way I see it, but they don't, it turns out.

Sure, but then the person who's trying to gaslight will not be successful if you hold on to what you just said to me, which is, I'm going to see the world the way I want to see it. The first example that you used in our discussion here was the person who's chronically late, you know, and then gives you a hard time for bringing up the fact that they're chronically late. And I've known people like that. I've known people who are chronically late, and I've said something about their lateness. But that's an example of a behavior that's hard to break, at least my experience.

And so I decided, you know what, the relationship is worth it to me. I know they're going to be late. They're always going to be late. And so that I took aside and I moved over here. And I don't make it an issue anymore because I know they're going to be late. And that's fine with me because I'm willing to pay that price. Exactly. And there's nothing wrong with that

because you've decided that whatever it means for that person is not either hurtful enough or intentional enough or is just about who they are and it's not about you and you're going to look it aside. And that's your choice to make. Right? That's your choice to make. right? That's your choice to make. But if you decided to have the conversation and the result of that conversation was that

person turned the tables on you and told you there was something wrong with you for even bringing it up, how would you feel then? Well, I'd feel terrible. But there is a difference between gaslighting and, you know, if somebody says you're too flirty or you're always late, well, maybe it's because you're too flirty and you're always late. In other words, maybe the conversation is warranted. The conversation may very well be warranted. Honey, what's going on that you're feeling so insecure? You know, I've always flirted with people. Like, why now? Or really tell me more. I didn't realize it. Did I do something that hurt your feelings? Or,

hey, I'm not aware that I'm doing it. Thanks for pointing it out. Or, you know what, I don't agree with you and you have a right to your opinion, but that's not the problem. The problem is really not whether you're flirting or whether you need to take a look at that. The problem is what's actually happening between the two people. So in that co-created moment, you're telling me about myself without asking me. You're telling me either what I'm feeling or what my character is like or that I don't know how to think straight. When somebody begins to tell you about your experience or why you should or shouldn't feel a certain way, there's trouble in that dynamic. Ultimately, though, do you find that gaslighters, when they're called out on it, will say, oh, geez, I'm sorry, or that they don't change, they don't even see it?

30%. 30% will apologize and say, my God, I had no idea I was making you feel this way. Yes, let's go to therapy. Yes, let me read the book. Let me recalibrate. 30% will stay the same. And 30% get angrier. Well, those are your odds. One in three. Yeah. But I have seen people move away from this dynamic with a lot of intention, a lot of commitment to being their best selves, a lot of self-awareness, and a lot of practice.

But it requires that decision to make each interaction a healthier interaction, to call the person out if they're intimidating you, if they're manipulating you, if they're spinning your reality, when that's happening, and not wait until three days later. Well, as I said in the very beginning, when you describe the gaslight effect and use the example of the person who's always late, I mean, that just, I know people like that. Everybody knows people like that. And now it's good to be able to put a magnifying glass

on that interaction and see what's really going on and the problems it can create. My guest has been Robin Stern. She is a therapist and author of the book The Gaslight Effect, How to Spot and Survive the Hidden Manipulations Others Use to Control Your Life. And there's a link to the book in the show notes. Thanks, Robin. Thank you, Mike.

Whether you're writing a blog or sending an email or a tweet, there are a lot of words that you can do without. For example, the word that. That is superfluous most of the time. Find a sentence with the word that in it and then read it out loud. Then read it again without the that and see if it works. If it still works, then delete the that. An example might be,

The boss told his employees that they were getting a raise. Or it could just be, The boss told his employees they were getting a raise. You don't need the that, so take it out. The word honestly. People use honestly to add emphasis. The problem is, the minute you tell your reader that this particular statement is honest, you've implied that the rest of your words were not honest.

The word absolutely. Adding this word to most sentences is redundant. For example, something is either necessary or it's not necessary, but absolutely necessary doesn't make it more necessary. The word amazing is overused to death. Amazing is synonymous with wonderful, incredible, startling, marvelous, astonishing, astounding, remarkable, miraculous, surprising, mind-blowing, and staggering. Maybe one of those words would work better. The problem is if everything is amazing, then nothing is amazing.

Literally. Literally means literal. Actually happened as stated without exaggeration. More often than not, when the term is used, the writer really means figuratively, not literally. Whatever is happening is being described metaphorically. No one literally waits on pins and needles because that would be very painful. And irregardless.

Irregardless and regardless mean the same thing. Regardless has always been correct in the English language. The word irregardless pretty much bullied its way into the language because so many people use it. But regardless is preferred. And that is something you should know. And that's the podcast today. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening to Something You Should Know.

Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer,

unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook. Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts.

Contained herein are the heresies of Rudolf Bantwine, erstwhile monk turned traveling medical investigator. Join me as I study the secrets of the divine plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth that ours is not a loving God and we are not its favored children. The Heresies of Redolph Buntwine, wherever podcasts are available.