Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: Why Parallel Universes Could Exist & How to Deal With A Bullying Boss

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Starting point is 00:00:17 You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, next time you have to make a big decision, dim the lights first. Also, the realities of the universe can boggle the mind, even the smartest minds. The example with Einstein is a good one.

Starting point is 00:00:47 Around 1918 or so, his math was shown to give rise to black holes. These are regions in space that would have such powerful gravity that nothing could escape, even light. When Einstein saw the implications of his math, he said, no way, I don't believe it. And yet we now have a mountain of evidence that black holes are real. Then, why do people blush? And how to deal with bullying in the workplace? I have experienced it. I see it go on. I talk to many people when I'm doing my events who come up to me and say, hey, I'm in this situation where it's not so much the job,

Starting point is 00:01:23 but it's either their boss or a co-worker. All this today on Something You Should Know. This is an ad for BetterHelp. Welcome to the world. Please read your personal owner's manual thoroughly. In it, you'll find simple instructions for how to interact with your fellow human beings and how to find happiness and peace of mind. Thank you and have a nice life. Unfortunately, life doesn't come with an owner's manual. That's why there's BetterHelp Online Therapy. Connect with a credentialed therapist by phone, video, or online chat. Visit betterhelp.com to learn more. That's betterhelp.com. Something you should know. Fasc the world's top experts and practical advice

Starting point is 00:02:08 you can use in your life today something you should know with mike carothers hey welcome to something you should know you know years ago i remember having this conversation with someone about this program we were just getting started and I was explaining what we were trying to do and how difficult in the beginning it was to put together great shows. And I remember they made a comment that has stuck with me. And the comment was, well, you can't hit a home run every day. And I remember thinking then, and I've kind of used this as a guiding principle, why can't you hit a home run every day? Or why can't you at least try, hit a triple?

Starting point is 00:02:57 I mean, some shows are going to be better than others, but we really put a lot of effort into making this show a home run every day. And I think today we have succeeded. First up today, when you have a big decision to make, you won't believe this, but the lighting in the room matters. And the suggestion is that you dim the lights. A study at the University of Toronto found that bright light can actually let emotion and drama influence your decision.

Starting point is 00:03:27 Researchers had participants make decisions and judgment calls in different lighting conditions, and what they determined is that under bright lights, emotions are felt more intensely. When we're exposed to bright light, the brain perceives that as heat, which tends to fire up our emotions, both positive and negative emotions. The majority of big decisions, especially in business, are made in bright light. But if you would like to make a more rational decision, consider finding a darker spot in which to mull it over. And that is something you should know. I love looking up at the night sky and wondering about all I see and wondering about what I don't see.

Starting point is 00:04:14 And, you know, we're this tiny little speck in the universe, but what all else is out there beyond what we can see? Astronomy and really all of science fascinates me. And one book that I read that really made me think was a book called The Hidden Reality, Parallel Universes and the Deep Laws of the Cosmos by Brian Greene. Brian Greene is a theoretical physicist, mathematician, string theorist. He is a professor at Columbia University. And if you're a Big Bang Theory fan,

Starting point is 00:04:46 you've seen Brian as a guest star on The Big Bang Theory. He's one of those people that can make all that complicated science stuff interesting, understandable, and really relevant. Welcome, Brian. So when you talk about parallel universes and hidden realities. What are you talking about? We have evidence from mathematical investigations that our reality may be a small part of a much grander whole that itself may contain other universes. It's not a proven fact by any means, but there's enough mathematical evidence to at least take this idea seriously.

Starting point is 00:05:24 Well, what's mathematical evidence? Well, what we do in physics is we look at the universe around us, we gather data, we take observations, and we try to explain those observations, that data, using mathematical equations. The mathematical equations, however, then can allow us to look further into the nature of the universe, looking beyond those things that we can actually test today and reveal hidden features of the cosmos. And this is a tradition that Einstein, Newton, Galileo all followed in one format or another.

Starting point is 00:05:59 We're following in their footsteps, following the math, and see where it leads. But if, by definition, the universe is everything, how can there be more than everything? That's a great question. Certainly the traditional notion of the word universe does mean everything, the totality, the whole shebang, if you will. So what could it mean to have more than one everything? And it's really, in some sense, a question of language. Since our investigations have shown us that what we have always thought to be everything,

Starting point is 00:06:28 by that I mean all the stars and all the galaxies that we can see with our most powerful telescopes, once we have learned the possibility that that everything is a small part of something much bigger, we face the dilemma of language. What do we call that bigger whole? And that led to this notion of multiverse, multiple universes, in which our universe would indeed be a small part of this grander landscape of possibilities.

Starting point is 00:06:52 As fascinating as this is to talk about, I mean, what you just said about there potentially being multiple universes and our reality is just a small part of all reality. And it is fascinating, but so what? Life goes on, so why is this important? Well, my own feeling is that we as a species, for thousands of years, have been trying to figure out, in essence,

Starting point is 00:07:21 why we're here, why there is a universe, and is there something that we're meant to be doing? These are the deep questions of existence that we all ask in one way or another. And it's my feeling that you can't really investigate those questions fully if you don't even know what the rock-bottom nature of reality is. And that's what these investigations are trying to reveal. So if we do learn that we really are one of many universes, if that idea is really true, I think it will have a deep and profound impact on how we see ourselves in the grander whole.

Starting point is 00:07:57 And so when you look at all the research we have so far, what does your gut tell you? What do you think is going on? Well, there are certain multiverse proposals that only rely on some very basic assumptions to be true. For instance, there's an issue of whether space goes on infinitely far or not. If you got into a spaceship and head out into space, would you hit a brick wall at some point? Would that be the end of the universe? Would you say, circle back to your starting point, as you would if you took a journey on the surface of the Earth and went far enough? Or would you simply go on forever? If you go on forever, there's a really startling conclusion along the lines of what we're discussing, and it's simply this. In any given finite region of space, matter can only arrange itself in finitely many different

Starting point is 00:08:45 ways. It's kind of like a deck of cards. That's my favorite analogy here. If you shuffle the deck, the cards will come out in different orders, but there are only finitely many different orders that are possible. So if you shuffle that deck enough times, sooner or later, the order of the cards will repeat. Similarly, in infinite space, sooner or later, the particle arrangements have to repeat, which means that our reality that we know of particle arrangements have to repeat, which means that our reality that we know of, you talking to me, people listening, whatever, that's just a configuration of particles. If that configuration repeats, then we are out there having this conversation in some distant location in the cosmos. That's pretty startling.

Starting point is 00:09:19 What are we talking about? Are we talking about this conversation we're having in this reality? Yeah, I mean, if the particle arrangement literally was identical to the one here, then we would be having the same conversation. But the particle arrangement could be very close but not fully identical. Maybe we're having a conversation about football, or maybe I'm the person on the radio interviewing you, and you're the physicist. I mean, these kinds of alterations really just are a matter of particles being in a different arrangement. And in an infinite universe, there are just so many regions of space that particles would fill that these possibilities would be realized. Now, look, you could say, are there loopholes to this? Of course there are.

Starting point is 00:10:04 Maybe way out there in the cosmos, the laws of physics are there loopholes to this? Of course there are. Maybe way out there in the cosmos, the laws of physics are so different from the ones we know about that we can't sensibly say anything about what's happening out there. That's possible. No evidence for it. Maybe space doesn't go on infinitely far. It's possible too. No evidence for that. If those features are not the case, if space does go on infinitely far, and if the laws that we know of are the right laws everywhere, then this startling conclusion follows. But when you get into discussions of forever and infinite and everything, it's so hard to grasp that it almost becomes unimportant,

Starting point is 00:10:42 because as far as my life is concerned, none of this matters. I mean, it just, it seems so hard for me to understand everything and anything and infinitely particles that, so what? Sure, I understand. You know, my mom, you know, I dedicated my first book, The Elegant Universe, to her and my father. And she read, as far as the dedication, tried to go a little bit further and said the book basically gave her a headache, which is perfectly understandable. This kind of thinking, this kind of investigation into the deep nature of reality is not everybody's cup of tea.

Starting point is 00:11:18 And it isn't something that literally will affect your moment to moment life. It won't put food on the table. It won't build a new gadget and so forth. I agree with that. On the other hand, I make two points. Number one, if you are interested in the deep questions of reality, you need to know what reality is. That's what we are trying to ascertain. But the second point is this.

Starting point is 00:11:40 Back in the 1920s, if you would have spoken to the people that were pioneering quantum physics, you could have spoken to the people that were pioneering quantum physics, you could have said to them, look, guys, you're spending all this time and effort thinking about molecules and atoms. That doesn't affect my life. Who cares? But now, 80 years later, quantum physics has given rise to every fantastic gadget that you use in your everyday life. Your cell phone, your personal computer, MRI machines, all manner of medical technology, all use integrated circuits, which themselves rely upon quantum physics, which is just to say that you don't know where basic research will lead. So it's really close-minded to somehow say, if what you're doing right now doesn't affect my life, I'm not interested. It could be that 10,

Starting point is 00:12:21 100, I don't know, 500 years later, it will affect the lives that are living then. Theoretical physicist, mathematician, and string theorist Brian Green is my guest. He is a professor at Columbia University. One of his many books is called The Hidden Reality, Parallel Universes and the Deep Laws of the Cosmos. And he's also been a guest star on The Big Bang Theory. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and

Starting point is 00:12:57 one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts.

Starting point is 00:13:47 Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years.

Starting point is 00:14:18 She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back. And in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker. Check out the Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, Brian, what is it you think we're peeking into? When you say that there are parallel realities, what is a parallel reality as opposed to?

Starting point is 00:15:11 Yeah, I'll give you another concrete example. We all know of the Big Bang, which is meant to be a description of how our universe began. A long time ago, 13.7 billion years ago, the universe was really tiny. It underwent a rapid expansion, cooled off in the process, allowing stars and galaxies to coalesce. That's a thumbnail sketch of the history of our universe. Now, the little dark secret that we maybe should emphasize more than we do when speaking in public is that the Big Bang leaves out the bang. It leaves out what happened at time zero to get this whole thing off and running in the first place. We've been trying to fill in that missing piece.

Starting point is 00:15:49 And as we have done so, the mathematics that we've developed to fill in that missing part has suggested that the Big Bang may not have been a one-time event. The Big Bang may have been something that happens many times. There may have been a bang here, a bang there, a bang way over there, each giving rise to its own expanding realm, each giving rise to its own universe, our universe just being one aftermath of a single bang. The image I like to have in mind is, think of it like a big cosmic bubble bath, where each of the bubbles is an expanding universe, our universe is one bubble,

Starting point is 00:16:24 and there are other bubbles out there, other parallel universes, other parallel realities. It's in that sense, in that concrete sense, that there could be other universes out there. Is it possible, though, that, as you mentioned a moment ago, the laws of physics could be so different out there in different universes that we can't even know what we're talking about? That's possible. So a big assumption of this whole undertaking, and frankly the reason I call my book The Hidden Reality,

Starting point is 00:16:53 The Hidden Reality really refers to mathematics as a potent guide to revealing things that we can't yet directly see. Now if the mathematical laws that we have developed through our observations here, through our experiments here, if those laws are irrelevant anywhere but here, then you're right. It's very hard to make any sensible statements about what could be going on in other universes, whether or not those other universes even exist. So that is a big assumption, but it's an assumption that has hundreds of years of support behind it. I mean, Albert Einstein developed his general theory of relativity in the early 1900s.

Starting point is 00:17:31 And for instance, it predicted that the universe should be expanding. He did not believe the math and tried to change the math so that it wouldn't yield this conclusion. But a dozen years later, Edwin Hubble turned a powerful telescope to the sky and found that the distant galaxies are all rushing away. The universe is expanding. The math really works. There are many examples of that sort, where math is the gateway to a fuller understanding of reality. And that is the approach that we are taking. Is it possible that another parallel universe could actually exist where, if we could get this down to some sort of basic level, where two and two doesn't equal four? Where the math could be fundamentally

Starting point is 00:18:17 different from our math. Yes, it is conceivable. People have investigated this possibility, not in any real rigorous sense, almost more in a philosophical sense. But in my book, one of the last multiverse proposals that I discuss in the second to last chapter is along those lines. It asks the question, could it be that every kind of mathematical equation, every kind of mathematical logic may be real in the sense that it's realized in one or another universe. It's an interesting speculation. And it really comes from a question that people have asked for many, many years, which is this. Is math a good description of reality, allowing you to make predictions and understand, you know, why the moon goes around the earth, why the earth goes around the sun and so forth? Or is math actually reality itself? Is math the substrate of reality?

Starting point is 00:19:14 If your notion that you suggest that other kinds of math might be real, it might lend some credence to the possibility that math is not just a description, that math really is the nature of reality. Math is reality. It's a possibility. I consider it a far-out one. It's not one that really moves me personally, but people do think about it. This whole discussion, though, of other universes, of other realities, is it part science and part philosophy, or can you separate those two? Yeah, it's always hard to know exactly what one means by philosophy. If by philosophy one means,

Starting point is 00:19:54 you know, an interesting collection of ideas that have a logical coherence, but have not yet been observed or proved through observations or experiments, then in some sense what we are talking does straddle science and philosophy. So from that perspective, I would say yes. But I would also say all cutting-edge science is in the same boat. I mean, the definition of cutting-edge science is that you are wandering into the darkness where we are trying to illuminate with our intellect, with our mathematics, ultimately with our experiments. So cutting-edge physics, cutting-edge science, in some sense, is always in this boat of not knowing whether it's right or wrong, and trying to understand things well enough to ultimately perform tests that will tell us whether it's

Starting point is 00:20:42 right or wrong. So when you get into areas where you're not really sure that the physics works, math is kind of your flashlight. Yes. And again, you know, the example with Einstein is a good one. You know, Einstein gives us another example. In around 1919, 1918 or so, his math was shown to give rise to black holes. These are regions in space that would have such powerful gravity that nothing could escape, even light. When Einstein saw the implications of his math, he said, no way. I don't believe it.

Starting point is 00:21:18 That's just mathematics gone haywire. And yet we now, many years later, many decades later, have a mountain of evidence that black holes are real, that they are really out there in space. We believe there's a black hole in the center of our galaxy that may weigh three million times as much as the sun. So again, it's another great example where the math says something, people may be resistant to it because it seems very far out, but then decades later, it's experimentally established. When you think about this, you, Brian Green, think about this, as opposed to someone like me who thinks about it. And when I hear you talk, I mean, some of it makes my head spin.

Starting point is 00:21:56 I mean, it's like it's so far out. It's so inexplicable. You kind of shake your head and go, oh, man, that's like spacey. But do you do that where there are holes in the explanations? Do you feel pretty good about those holes or does it make your head shake too? Well, it's not that the holes make my head shake. The ideas make my head spin much as they make yours and many people, because the ideas are so fantastically interesting and so wondrous and so unexpected. And to me, what makes the subject so exciting is we're not led to these possibilities by wild-eyed imaginings.

Starting point is 00:22:36 You know, a Hollywood screenwriter just comes up with some idea from their own imagination, and if it's interesting, they get it made and they have some sci-fi film that may get made and people watch it. We're not doing that. We're not just letting our imaginations run wild. We are sitting at our desk using the techniques that have been established over hundreds of years, namely mathematical investigations. And lo and behold, some of the things that we're led to are more wild than anything that you've seen in science fiction. That certainly makes my head spin. At the same time, what brings me down to earth is we don't know whether these ideas are correct yet.

Starting point is 00:23:13 We have to work hard. We have to understand things better in order that hopefully we can test some of these ideas. It's only at that point that we can say that we have some confidence that these ideas describe reality. When you look at this stuff, how do you keep yourself from jumping to conclusions? Don't you ever see, like, I really think it's this? Well, we often make conjectures in our day-to-day work. You know, when I'm working with my students and postdocs, we're constantly making conjectures and then following up to see whether the conjectures are borne out by more rigorous mathematical analysis. But the bottom line is, none of our ideas will see the light of day. We don't write a paper

Starting point is 00:23:55 on conjectures. We write papers on things that emerge from the rigorous analysis. So it's in some sense, there is imagination involved, but it's imagination it's in some sense, there is imagination involved, but it's imagination that is in some sense within the straitjacket of mathematics. And it's that straitjacket that allows us to keep along a straight and narrow path, hopefully walking toward truth.

Starting point is 00:24:19 Every time I talk to you, well, first I feel stupid, and then by the time we're done talking, I always feel a little smarter. So thanks, Brian. Brian Green has been my guest. Brian is a theoretical physicist, mathematician, string theorist, and a professor at Columbia University. One of several books he's written is The Hidden Reality, Parallel Universes and the Deep Laws of the Cosmos. You'll find a link to his book in the show notes. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown.

Starting point is 00:24:52 I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, join me, Megan Rinks.

Starting point is 00:25:19 And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong. And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we

Starting point is 00:25:45 catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. As you've heard, and I'm sure you know, bullying is a problem. But when I think of bullying, I think of it as a school problem, that it's young people who are bullied for the most part. But there is bullying in the workplace too. Bosses can be bullies. But what's the difference between being a tough but fair boss and being a bully? Where's the line?

Starting point is 00:26:24 And are people becoming too sensitive that every little slight or anytime someone raises their voice or gets mad, all of a sudden that person is a bully? Well, here to discuss that is Tracy Jones. Tracy is the president of Tremendous Leadership. It's a professional development and management consultancy that advises Fortune 500 companies. And she's author of a book called A Message to Millennials, What Your Parents Didn't Tell You and Your Employer Needs to Know. So Tracy, what's your interest in this topic of bullying? Why is this important to you?

Starting point is 00:27:02 Well, I've worked in four different industries. This is my fifth in the workplace since I got my work release papers at 14. So I have quite a few years under my belt. And workplace bullying is something that I have seen and I have had done to me. And I think it's important because we focus on children a lot. I do a lot of youth programs with elementary school programs, and we really hit them up about being kind. Psychologists call it one of the big five personality traits is called being agreeable. And agreeableness means you have an empathy, you're collaborative, you're able to get along with people.

Starting point is 00:27:43 And when you don't have that trait, then you tend to go into the bully realm where you exhibit really self-oriented behavior. So I have experienced it. I see it go on. I talk to many people when I'm out and about doing my events who come up to me and say, hey, I'm in this situation where it's not so much the job, but it's either their boss or a co-worker. And, you know, my dad used to say that all the time.

Starting point is 00:28:10 He's like, Tracy, my problem isn't me staying motivated. It's keeping other people from demotivating me. And I had to laugh about that. But it's sad. I've seen that, too. A job is just a job. But the people you work with can make you or break you. But are there statistics on how big a problem this is?

Starting point is 00:28:28 Well, I think the one that they just did, the one survey that a lot of folks have called me on, is that they say it is 60% of the people have either seen it or experienced in the workplace. And primarily it comes from the bosses, but I've talked to plenty of people that say it can come from coworkers or even underlings. Mike, one of the things I noticed is in the larger organizations, there's a quote by Noel Coward, and it says, the higher the bigger the building, the lower the morals. And what that kind of means is when you get these really huge

Starting point is 00:29:05 mondo companies or organizations, there's a lot of good things, a lot of great talent they attract, but there's also a lot of bad stuff that comes in. And it can hide and it can be moved from position to position rather than somebody dealing with it. They'll just say, oh, well, you two can't get along. I'm just going to move you someplace else. And they fail to really route out that toxicity or that cancer. So it holds up sticking in the organization. And that's quite unfortunate because as leaders, we should have zero tolerance for bullying in the workplace in any form. So when I think of bullying, I think of the schoolyard bully and, you know, kids get stuck with the schoolyard bullying because they have to go to school, what does workplace bullying look like?

Starting point is 00:29:50 And if people are getting bullied, why don't they just leave? Well, first of all, that's a great point about what it looks like now versus when we looked at it as kids. And you still can have the adult bullies that do carry on that really juvenile behavior. They haven't matured to the state where they have to realize that they have to be more collaborative and they're a leader now, so they have to act like it. But the big difference, Mike, is you first of all have to determine, is your boss tough or are they bullying? And so the tough boss is going to insist that you work hard, give your best effort, consistently deliver high-quality work all the time,

Starting point is 00:30:30 follow workplace norms like dress code and showing up on time, and the tough boss is going to expect you to exhibit a really healthy dose of self-awareness, self-discipline, and self-restraint. In other words, they want to break you down to build you up. So that's a tough boss. And sometimes people are like, oh, my boss is so tough on me. I didn't do this. And they yell and they, I don't ever advocate yelling, but they corrected me. And it's like, well, they should because you didn't meet the standard. But what we're talking about is when you have an abusive

Starting point is 00:30:57 or a bullying boss, and that is a different animal. They are going to deliberately provide you with false or misleading information. They're going to humiliate you in public. They're going to call you names. They're going to put the blame on you. And if you don't go along with what they want, they're going to try and exact retribution or revenge. And so that is, they're going to try and break you down to destroy you. So the tough boss gives you constructive feedback, but the bullying boss gives you destructive criticism, and their role is to break you down. Why people don't leave? Many different reasons. Some of it is they feel that they have to have that job, but when you really go through this and see the toll that it takes, once you determine,

Starting point is 00:31:44 is it annoyance, or is this really keeping me from doing my job and making me physically sick? I mean, some people are pretty good at when they come out of the parking lot, they don't think about it again. But other people really take it home with them and take it much more. They're more sensitive, and they take it to more of a personal level. So why people stick around? Some people have a higher threshold for tolerating dysfunction.

Starting point is 00:32:09 It may be a situation where the boss, I had one situation where I had a bullying boss who literally would snap in my face and scream, but he was located in a different state. So I was able to take time to find another position, but I still was not sticking around. It just wasn't immediate. I didn't have to deal with it all the time. So these are all things you have to consider. But nobody making you feel that way is worth sticking around for. But is bullying the behavior of the bullier?

Starting point is 00:32:41 Or as you just said, if you feel like you've been bullied, have you been bullied? Oh, well, it really depends. And like I said, and this is where... No, no, wait, no, no, but it shouldn't depend. It's either the behavior of the bullier or the perception of the bullied. It's one or the other. Well, what I was saying, it depends on the motives of the person. Okay, for example, it depends on the motive of the person, the quote, are they a bully or not? And I say one of two things. Either somebody is woefully ignorant, and what that means is maybe they're a new boss, and maybe they're not sure how they're supposed to lead, but they think the expectation is to be overly tough on people. For example, when I first got

Starting point is 00:33:18 commissioned in the military, and then I was a captain, I had some of my enlisted folks come up to me and say, you know what, captain? We know how smart you are, but the way you come across, it is not cool. I was being overly tough on them. And so they got with me and realized that it was not my intention to degrade them. I just was young and inexperienced. But the other thing is you're either woefully ignorant or willfully ignorant, in which case the boss that would snap at me, he knew exactly what he was doing.

Starting point is 00:33:47 He was trying to do it, and there was an element of just power and control and what I would say evil in him. So that is when you need to look at that. But I would highly recommend, back to your point, Mike, when this happens to you, go to the person and say, what did you say, what did you mean, or are you aware of that behavior, how that is coming across, or what that's doing to you. Go to the person and say, what did you say? What did you mean? Or are you aware that behavior, how that is coming across or what that's doing to me? Because you want to make sure that you have done everything within your power to let the person know, hey, this is an issue. And one of two things is going to happen. They're either going to look at you and go,

Starting point is 00:34:20 holy cow, I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was coming off like that. Or they're going to go, yeah, what about it? And you're going to know this is a bully, if that makes sense. Right, sure. The concern I think a lot of people have is that, especially with younger people coming into the workplace, that they don't like the way they're being treated. And in other words, they're lowering the bar and calling it bullying when it's just life. No, absolutely. And you know, there is, there is a self-assessment online. It's called the brutal boss questionnaire. And you go through, and like I said, it has checklists where if your boss is just, it just corrects you for not doing what the bare minimum is, that's not an abusive boss,

Starting point is 00:35:08 okay? That's just a tough boss. Because what young people have to realize coming into the workplace is you are being paid to come in and do one of two things, either solve problems or create solutions. And when you sit there and push back on the organization who is trying to get you to come into the workplace norms or to teach you new things and you balk at that, that's not bullying. That's being, in my opinion, that's being overly sensitive. So, I mean, when I was in the military, I had a couple times where I misused the chain of command,

Starting point is 00:35:42 i.e. I didn't use it at all. And boy, did I have some people really, we used to call it, light me up, really get a hold of me. And you know what? I didn't like it, but they were absolutely right. I had done something wrong. So that is up to the individual to be able to accept constructive feedback. Is this problem getting worse, or is it getting better, or what do you think? I think it's growing growing and I'll tell you why. Because I think people now are going into the workplace and not everybody and certainly not a

Starting point is 00:36:12 lot of the people I deal with, but it's a matter of when you go into the workplace, do you have an attitude that you are owed everything and deserve nothing? Or do you go in with an attitude that you deserve everything and owe nothing? Because if you go into the workplace with an attitude of gratitude, and I know that sounds, you've heard that a million times, but if you go in and you're thankful for the job and you're willing to learn and you're willing to start morphing into the best that you can be, you are going to see things in a different light. Rather than getting offended at everything, you're going to look at this and say, you know what, I see this as an opportunity to learn.

Starting point is 00:36:48 But if you have people that come in and think, oh, the job has to cater to me, then that's really kind of an entitlement mindset. So it really depends on who's entering the workforce and where their head and where their heart is. What about when you see or you experience bullying of, you know, going over the head of the person or going to the HR department or, you know, rather than trying to reason with a bully, which can sometimes just result in disaster, just, you know, go somewhere else and complain. Right. I always recommend resolving everything you can at the lowest level. And I have done this several times and it has blown back on me hard, but you know what it showed them, Mike? It showed, as I did use the chain, it showed the people that I was the professional and I tried to

Starting point is 00:37:37 resolve things at the lowest level. Because in the event, in the 1% that the person really just didn't know, maybe they had a bad day, maybe they were operating under some misinformation, and maybe they just came across, who knows, maybe their cat got hit on the, I'm not sure. But you've got to give everybody the benefit of the doubt, even the bully. And try and resolve it at the lowest level, because the first thing I do when somebody would come to me when I was in supervision and they'd talk to me about it, I'd say, did you address this with the individual? Because you have to get the people in the room because you have to clarify what's going to be said.

Starting point is 00:38:12 So sooner or later, you're going to have to sit there and say to this person what happened. And I highly recommend that you do it at the lowest level. But my experience is that people like that, people who bully, when you talk to them about that, nobody ever says, oh, gee, I'm sorry, let me just change everything about my personality and just be the nicest guy in the world. A bully's a bully, and trying to reason with them is usually a colossal waste of time. It is, because that's on them. But we're talking about us and we're better than the bully. So what we do, this is wholly for us and for the organization. And by the way, in the event we do separate and want to go through legal recourse, everything we show that we can say that we try to resolve this in the most collaborative,

Starting point is 00:39:00 the lowest level reflects better on our professionalism. So yeah, the assumption is, and like I said, in the 1%, they do listen. So trust me, Mike, I know most of the time they're not going to. But then you keep going up the chain. You go to their boss. You go to their boss. You go all the way up to the CEO, if need be. And you bring HR in the loop because you need to know what your organization's policies,

Starting point is 00:39:21 written policies are as far as how they handle bullying in the workplace. So I would recommend, first of all, before you go into the organization, ask people, how is that dealt with? Is there screaming in meetings? How do they deal with people that violate principles? Do they not hold them accountable? So you can get a feel for that culture before you get kind of into the organization. But no, I would keep using the chain. I would keep using HR. And it is going to become very obvious pretty quick on if somebody takes your stuff serious or if they say to you something like, I've heard, well, what do you want me to do about it?

Starting point is 00:39:56 I actually had a CEO tell me that. And that's when I knew, this is not a good organization for me to stay in. Because they were completely complicit and allowed that kind of behavior to go on. Well, something that's always fascinated me about people who get into positions where they're managing people is so often they get there not because they know how to manage people, but the great salesman becomes the sales manager, or the great engineer becomes the head

Starting point is 00:40:26 of the department. It doesn't mean they know anything about dealing with people. They were just good at being an engineer or a salesman. Absolutely. And that's why the best way to become a leader is to become a great follower. And a bully is not going to be a great follower, because they're not going to be able to take input from anybody. It's going to be my way or the highway. And so you can look at this, and that is a problem we all have because once you get into leadership, it's no longer about how well you can do the individual task, but it's how well you can inspire others to achieve their level, a completely different skill set, as you pointed out.

Starting point is 00:41:03 Any other suggestions or advice for people? Because I can imagine if you feel trapped in a job where you're working for or with a bully, it can be pretty tough. So some final thoughts? Understand this is not a reflection on your personhood. This is really hard because I've had to leave two organizations because of this. And you beat yourself up and you think, oh, my gosh, it's me. And all this stuff's going on and you try and get all this help and everybody's looking at you like you're part of the problem. And, yeah, we do have to be self-aware and you have to make sure,

Starting point is 00:41:35 I'm a work in progress, I don't do everything right, but you've got to make sure you've got to understand this is just not a good organization, okay? And there's a great quote that says, I'd rather eat crumbs with bums than steaks with snakes. And it really is where your character and values are. And I don't play that step over people, hit them over the head to get to the top. If that's your bag, have at it.

Starting point is 00:41:57 But realize if you're in an organization, it's not a reflection on you. That type of behavior was always there. You probably just didn't see it manifested to you before, and it's going to be there long after you left. And that organization will eventually implode publicly, or it'll get bought out by somebody, because eventually it does take its toll. Well, that should certainly help fortify and empower people who are being bullied, that they don't have to just take it, that there are things they can do.

Starting point is 00:42:25 Tracy Jones has been my guest. She is president of Tremendous Leadership. It's a professional development and management consultancy that advises Fortune 500 companies. And she is author of the book, A Message to Millennials, What Your Parents Didn't Tell You and Your Employer Needs to Know. There's a link to her book on Amazon in the show notes for this episode. Thanks, Tracy. Awesome, Mike. Thank you so much. So all my life, I've been a blusher. Whenever I get embarrassed or put on the spot, or do something stupid, or make a mistake, and I get called for it, I blush.

Starting point is 00:43:09 I've always done it, ever since I was a kid. What's so fascinating about blushing is that science has no idea why we do it. What we do know is that it's part of our fight-or-flight response. When we're embarrassed, our body releases adrenaline, and that speeds up breathing and blood flow. And in addition, the veins in your face dilate, so that more blood is going through the veins in your face than usual, and that causes the reddening of the face. But what's interesting is the veins in other parts of your body don't dilate, it's just the ones in your face.

Starting point is 00:43:46 There are a lot of theories as to why we blush. A common one is that it helps enforce social rules. By blushing, we are showing people that we realize we made a mistake or that we're embarrassed. Children don't blush much at all before the age of five, and probably that's because they haven't been conditioned to feel embarrassment yet. And that is Something You Should Know. That's the podcast today. You can email me at mike at somethingyoushouldknow.net.

Starting point is 00:44:17 I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership

Starting point is 00:44:50 to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan.

Starting point is 00:45:08 Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot.

Starting point is 00:45:35 Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: Why Parallel Universes Could Exist & How to Deal With A Bullying Boss

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