Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: Why We Dream & How to Be Personal in a Digital World

Episode Date: December 24, 2022

There are a lot of theories and myths about alcohol and how not to fall victim to its effects. For example, mixing caffeine with alcohol will make you feel less sleepy or that light beers are healthier than regular beers. I begin this episode with an examination of which of these and other commonly held beliefs about alcohol are true or false. http://www.purewow.com/wellness/Alcohol-Myths Why do we dream at night? Do those dream serve a purpose or are they random thoughts that occupy your brain while you are asleep? Journalist Alice Robb, author of the book Why We Dream (https://amzn.to/2LmMMuy) explores the science of dreams and offers some proven ways that you can use your dreams to help you in your waking life. What is the best tasting ketchup? Is it some fancy organic gourmet ketchup or is it Heinz or Hunts or maybe Del Monte? When you test them side-by-side, there is an obvious winner. Listen and discover which ketchup is the best according to almost everyone. (The New Best Recipe cookbook by America’s Test Kitchen – (https://amzn.to/2LmL9gd) You probably have a lot more electronic friends on social media, texts and email than you have real friends. And while electronic friends are fine, having traditional friends and connections is probably more important than ever before. Susan RoAne author of the book How to Work a Room (https://amzn.to/2ElLcrk) explores the importance of friendships and offers practical ways to find and make new friends. PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! Shopify grows with your business anywhere. Thanks to their endless list of integrations and third-party apps - everything you need to customize your business to your needs is already in your hands. Sign up for a FREE trial at https://Shopify.com/sysk ! If you think you’re okay to drive after a few drinks, think again. Play it safe and plan ahead to get a ride. It only takes one mistake to change your life, or someone else’s, forever. Drive Sober or Get Pulled Over.  PAID FOR BY NHTSA Did you know that driving under the influence of marijuana is illegal? If you feel different, you drive different. Drive high, get a DUI. PAID FOR BY NHTSA Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Download June's Journey now on Android or iOS. Today on Something You Should Know, some facts about alcohol you really need to know if you're drinking this holiday season. Also, why do we dream and why are so many of your dreams so upsetting? There was one recent study where scientists put recording devices in people's rooms while they were asleep and they found that these utterances that they made during sleep talking were very negative and people just seemed to be in distress. Then what's the best tasting ketchup by far?

And how to make friends and be comfortable in a room full of strangers. If you want to be an expert at working a room, you do not look over someone's shoulder when you're talking to them. That's a very off-putting behavior. Just focus on the person that you're talking to and maintain eye contact. They'll be at ease, then you'll be at ease, and then conversation flows. All this today on Something You Should Know. This is an ad for BetterHelp. Welcome to the world. Please read your personal owner's manual thoroughly. In it, you'll find simple instructions for how to interact with your fellow human beings

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The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, happy holidays. Merry Christmas. I hope you get everything you asked Santa for this year. Because we are in a festive time of year, people are drinking a lot, and a lot of what people think about alcohol turns out to be more myth than fact. For example, beer before liquor never been sicker. Well, the truth is, it's actually the total amount of alcohol consumed and how quickly you consume it that makes you sick, not the combination of booze. All you really need to do is pace yourself about one drink per hour and you should be fine.

Mixing in caffeine will make you less sleepy. The truth is that when caffeine, especially diet soda, is consumed with alcohol, it can actually alter your perception of how drunk you are, leading you to drink way more than you planned. Instead, it's better to alternate your cocktails with water to feel less sleepy. Old wine is the best wine. Well, the truth is a lot of wines are actually meant to be consumed right away, or at least within the first year or two of production. A good rule of thumb to keep in mind for any bottles collecting dust on your shelf, the cheaper the bottle, the faster it should be consumed.

Light beers are a healthier option. Well, the truth is beers are only light compared with their counterparts. In other words, a Corona Light is lighter than a regular Corona, but that's all it tells you. The only way to really know if a light beer is low in calories is to check the calorie count on the container. It takes one hour to sober up for every drink. The truth is that is true only for the first drink. For every drink after that, add an extra 30 minutes, since the effects are cumulative. For example, if you have three drinks, you'll need to allow four and a half hours to sober up. And that is something you should know.

I know something you do every night while you're in bed. You dream. And if your dreams are anything like my dreams, they often don't make a lot of sense, they're hard to remember, and seem as if they don't really have much to do with real life. But dreaming has been studied scientifically, not necessarily regarding what dreams mean,

but why we do it in the first place. Does dreaming really serve a function? And if so, what is it? And can we better use our dreams based on that research? Here to talk about this is Alice Robb. Alice is a journalist and columnist for New York's Science for Us, and she's author of a new book called Why We Dream. Hi, Alice. So, first of all, does science know really why we dream, or are there just theories

and possible explanations of why we dream? Well, there are lots of theories, but some of them do have a lot of science to support them. One of the main ideas is that, which comes to us from evolutionary psychology, is that we dream in order to rehearse for things that will be stressful during the day. That would explain why our brains are subjecting us to something that's often so unpleasant. People notice that they have many more anxiety dreams and you're more likely to be falling down and flying through the sky. So scientists were wondering why would we have to go through something so unpleasant every night and the solution that they came up with was that if we go through this unconscious practice session then we're more prepared to face that situation in real life. I mean, there was

one recent study where scientists put recording devices in people's rooms while they were asleep, and they collected the utterances that they made during sleep talking. And when they analyzed them, they found that these utterances were very negative, that they used the word no four times often during sleep as they did in real life. And they cursed all the time. Dreams were very profane and people just seemed to be in distress. Couldn't it just be though that while you're asleep and your body is repairing itself and sleeping because the human body requires it, your brain has to do something. So it just fires off these random things and there's nothing more to it than that. Could it not just be that? It seems unlikely because there are so many patterns in dreams. I mean,

they're not just random. There are studies showing that, for example, when rats run through a maze and then they fall asleep, that they're actually replaying that sequence in their brains. Their neurons are firing in the same pattern as they did while they were running through the maze during the day. So they're learning it. The dreams are, they're replaying salient things that have happened to us during the day, not just random things. There are studies of humans showing that when you're going through an intensive learning experience, like when you're learning a new language, you actually have more REM sleep. And REM is the time when you are dreaming. There was actually a study of English speakers learning French, and it found that the students

who were incorporating French into their dreams were the ones who were mastering it. And there was actually a correlation between dreaming in French and improving in real life. Really? You know, you know, it's something I've always wondered. I've heard that blind people dream, even though they've been blind since birth. So what do they dream about? Have you ever looked at that? Yeah, it's interesting, actually. So some blind people do have sight in dreams. It tends to depend at what age they lost their sight. So if they lost their sight before the age of five, they probably don't have sight in dreams. And for most of us, our dreams are very visual. Sight is the most common sense in dreams.

In dreams, we tend not to feel things. We don't really feel pain usually. Even hearing things is pretty unusual. I mean, if you're a musician, you might have more auditory dreams. But if people have lost their sight after around the age of five, then they do tend to continue to experience sight in their dreams. Wait, we don't hear things in our dreams typically? We do, but those tend not to be the most salient experiences.

Like they tend to be much more visual. I mean, we certainly, we have conversations in dreams, but we're more likely to remember these kind of hallucinatory visual scenes. Over the years, I've been offered people to come on and talk about dream interpretation. And I've resisted because it does seem to me that if you ask 10 dream interpreters to interpret a dream, you'll get 10 different interpretations. And this idea that, oh, if you dream that you're flying, that means this. And if you're eating in your dream, that means that. What's your take on

all of that? Yeah, I mean, I think your instincts are correct. There is there's really no such thing as dream interpretation. I mean, you can try to understand where the dream is coming from. You can look for correlations between the dream and an old memory or between recent experience. But you know, we don't, there's no such thing as a dream dictionary, you can never say this isolated element of a dream always means a certain thing. I mean, humans have certainly tried their dream dictionaries, dating back to ancient times, know their interpretations like people would try to use dreams almost as fortune telling devices that you know if you dream of your teeth falling out it means you'll come into a fortune or you know sort of random thing um

but it is it i'd say it is possible to meaningfully look at your own dreams. If you pay attention to your dreams and you start recalling them frequently, you can look for emotional patterns or patterns in which characters are turning up. And we do tend to have our own idiosyncratic dream languages, but we have to figure that out for ourselves. But there have been studies of people who kept dream journals over decades that find that there are certain things that stay constant. So I'm thinking of one woman who kept a dream journal for 50 years. And there were certain motifs that recurred in really similar ways. So her mother appeared in one out of four dreams. And in one out of 10 dreams, she was running after a bus. So do most people dream the way I dream in the sense that they

don't really seem to make a lot of sense? You know, you're in a car, and then it turns into an elephant. And then it and it's all very strange and surreal. Is that the typical dream or or am I just nuts? Yeah. So we have different types of dream over the course of the night. So you're dreaming every REM phase. So that happens about every 90 minutes. And towards the beginning of the night, you're having shorter REM phases, be as short as 10 to 15 minutes. And during those early dreams, they tend to be very story-like and intense. And then ones that we're more likely to remember, both because they happen closer to when we wake up and also because they're just more memorable. And in those dreams, we're making these more random associations because the part of the brain, the frontal lobe, the logic centers are less activated and the emotion centers, the amygdala

are fired up. So you have a sort of chemical brew of it's like almost designed to have emotional experiences that don't make that much sense. Like you're not stopping yourself from making connections that during the daytime you would dismiss. It's sort of on a spectrum with mind wandering and free associating that we might do during the day. I want to ask you whether it's really possible to solve a problem in your dream that you can't solve when you're awake, because that seems really strange to me. I'm speaking with Alice Robb. She is author make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat.

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I don't think I've ever had a dream that I woke up the next morning and, aha, there's the answer. Is that common? I mean, I think it varies. Do you remember your dreams often? Yeah, sometimes. Sometimes I remember dreams, but I find that as I try to remember them, they slip away. Yeah. Do you keep a dream journal or do you have any practice like that? No, I don't do that.

But I also find too that some dreams really stick with me the next day. That as most of them, I don't remember much about. Some of them have a real profound effect, maybe because something horrible happened in them, like it's almost nightmarish-like. But they really kind of cloud my day the next day. Yeah, I mean, they can absolutely affect our mood. There was one study that I read about a couple of people in relationships that found that if they dreamed about having a fight with their partner or like about their partner cheating on them, that they

were, they reported fewer feelings of intimacy in the morning and were more, even more likely to actually have a fight. So they definitely can exert influence on our behavior and certainly our mood, even if we don't remember them. Sometimes you just wake up with a kind of hazy feeling. Right. Like, I don't know why I feel this way, but it's a profound feeling. And it's usually negative. Yeah. I mean, I would recommend keeping a dream journal if you are interested. And it doesn't have to be like a pen and paper journal. It can be, but you can just speak your dreams into your phone in the morning. You could type them up. If you do want to recall them, just intending to recall them, saying before bed that you want to, and then reaching for your dream journal first thing in the morning can really, really help.

But what about this idea that Einstein and other people have found the answer in their dreams? Because I never do. Yeah, I mean, we tell a lot of these spectacular stories about scientists making breakthroughs in dreams and artists using dreams to, you know, come up with new ideas. And there are fantastic stories of musicians, everyone from Beethoven to Paul McCartney, composing in their dreams, which sounds amazing. But for most of us, our problems are a little more down to earth. But our dreams can still definitely give us

insight into them. There was one study by a Harvard psychologist called Deirdre Barrett, who gave students the task of, they had to pick a problem that they were having in their lives. So for a lot of them, it was something to do with a relationship or indecision over career path, and think about it before bed and set an intention to try to dream about it. And she found that many of them were actually able to, that they dreamed about the problems and that they gained some insight into them. And sometimes the solutions were in metaphors that they had to unpack for themselves.

Other times they just almost received answers to questions they were thinking about and then felt that those answers did resonate with what they wanted, but didn't know that they wanted. One of the things that always fascinates me about dreams is how you can surprise yourself in a dream. You know, you go around the corner and there's that thing you never thought could be there, but it's your dream. How can you surprise yourself in your own dream? It's your dream. Yeah, I mean, one of the trippiest aspects of dreams, I think, is that you're creating other people and they're talking to you. And you're like telling yourself this whole story. But

yes, you are, you are the producer of it. I mean, Freud would say that, that every figure in a dream represents some aspect of yourself. So you might be turning your fear of something into a person who then comes to represent it. But there's definitely a lot that's still kind of mind boggling in dreams. One of the things that that I remember hearing a long time ago, it was an interview with Paul McCartney. And he said that he looked at it as when he dreamt about his myself in times of trouble, Mother Mary comes to me, is exactly that. That in his dream, his mother comes to him and he views it as a chance to see her again. And I love that. I just thought that is so great. And so when I dream about my mother, who has also passed away, I view it that way.

And it's like you get to see her again. Yeah, I didn't know that about Let It Be. We tend to have more vivid dreams when we're going through times of stress and transition and loss. And an extreme example of that is when someone you love has just passed away. And most people who are in mourning describe very vivid, personally meaningful dreams of the person coming back to them. I mentioned before that there have been stories of people like Einstein having dreams and finding the missing piece of the equation that solves all the world's problems. Are these stories true, do we know?

Are these myths? How often does it happen? What's the sense of what that's all about? There have been studies that show that people give more creative answers to problems, to word problems, when they've just woken out of dream sleep. So there was one study by a researcher called Robert Stickgold who woke students out of REM sleep or they were just awake and they were given a word problem where they would have to match pairs of words and some of the word pairs were very obviously linked together,

like short and long, they would just be simple opposites, hot and cold. And then other sets of words were a little bit more obliquely related. So thief and wrong was one set or cowboy and rough. So typically, links that you would have to think a little bit harder to make. But what the study found was that the people who had just woken out of dream sleep actually made those more oblique connections more quickly. So they were coming out of dream sleep and still working in this kind of looser, wider network of associations that we have in dreams. What about the idea of deliberately trying to do things with your dreams? I know there's loose people claim to be able to dream and be aware that they're dreaming in their dream and then be able to do things in the dream.

I've never been able to do that. I always wake up as soon as I realize I'm dreaming. And but I hear people say that you can use your dreams deliberately. Can you really? Yeah, absolutely. I would say that if you have had the experience where you realize that you're in a dream while you're in a dream, I would guess that it would probably not be that hard for you to improve at lucid dreaming. That's already like on the way. And there are techniques that people use to prolong their lucid dreams and kind of stabilize them so they don't get startled and just wake up. There's one technique that's recommended by Stephen LaBerge, who's a very expert lucid dreamer. And he suggests that

you do that you just do anything to physically engage with the dream world and like use your body. So rub your hands together, really try to feel, feel the floor, feel your surroundings. And that can also just help you calm down. So you don't get so excited that you wake up. And for people who master lucid dreaming, absolutely, they can use lucid dreams to practice for things. You know, a lot of athletes report using lucid dreaming to practice for their events or to stage encounters with people from their lives and get some emotional satisfaction from that in a way. Did I read somewhere that you can do that? Yes. So this is actually how I got interested in the topic of dreams in the first place. Dreams hadn't occupied that much of my mental space when I was growing up probably I think I had a similar

attitude towards dreams that most of us have that they're maybe they're kind of interesting but really we should shouldn't talk about them too much they're a little embarrassing you know educated people shouldn't take them too seriously uh but then when I was in college I was uh I was on an archaeological dig which was a requirement for my major and I was staying in this very small town in Peru and there was no reliable internet and I read all the books I'd brought and a friend of mine who was on the dig had this book that was a guidebook about lucid dreaming by Stephen LaBerge who I mentioned before but the way he LaBerge described it sounded extremely cool I'm just becoming aware in a dream that you're in a dream so not having much else to do I started practicing the exercises that he suggested. So first improving my general dream

recall by keeping a dream diary and talking about my dreams throughout the day, which being on an archaeological dig where you just don't have a lot to do and you have people around to talk to, that was a very good place to try that. So improving your dream recall, and then you start doing exercises like throughout the day, you ask yourself whether you're awake or asleep. And you know, you do something to check. So you might plug your nostrils and see if you can breathe. And if you can breathe through your plug nostrils, then you know you're in a dream. And the idea is this habit becomes ingrained. And so you pose the same question in your sleep. And if you're sufficiently aware, you'll answer that you're in a dream and a lucid dream will begin. So I started having lucid dreams that summer in college

and just found them kind of mind blowing. and from there got further into dreams. Can you do it at will? Can you say I'm gonna have a lucid dream tonight and you will? Sometimes it's not perfect for me. I mean people are very different. Some people, I've met people who lucid dream naturally. I met one woman who has lucid dream every night without making any effort. For me, it's like I have to get into the mindset, I have to do my reality checks. And then yes, also say before bed, you know, think about my desire to have a lucid dream. And it's more than if I do that diligently for a few days, I'll probably have one. But it's a bit of effort.

When you look at all the research that you've looked at, at dreaming, what is the one or two things that really kind of blow your mind, that really fascinate, that really like, wow, if we haven't talked about them already, that any studies, anything that like, man, this is wild. Hmm. There's a lot. There was one study that I found very, really kind of inspiring about how the role that dreams can play in helping us psychologically. And this is a study by a woman called Rosalind Cartwright who decided to study people who were going through a divorce.

So she would have people come in right after their separation when they were, you know, most depressed and then come in again about a year later. And she asked them about their dreams at both points. And she found that the people and, you know, took other measures of their well-being. And she found that people who were dreaming about their exes, there was just a lot going on. They were confronting them or bringing in different experiences, as opposed to people who were having more passive dreams. Since you're someone who has not only studied dreaming, but also really participated in lucid dreaming and recalling your dreams. Any last piece of advice for people? I think everyone, even if you think that dreams don't mean anything, just why not make a little bit of effort? Just say to yourself before bed, I would like to remember my dreams.

Maybe try to keep a dream journal and just see what's going on in your brain. I mean, you're spending two hours, about 20-25% of your time asleep in dreams. And, you know, it's this whole aspect of human experience that many of us are just ignoring. And it's very easy to tap into and see what meaning you can wring from that. Right. I mean, what could it hurt? And who knows what you might uncover? Alice Robb has been my guest. She is author of the book, Why We Dream, The Transformative Power of Our Nightly Journey. There's a link to her book in the show notes. Thanks, Alice. Thanks so much.

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Maybe by this new definition of friendship they are. But many would argue that real friends, people you spend time with in the same room, that's what constitutes friendship. And if you have a lot of electronic friends, maybe you're crowding out time for your real friends. So is there a balance here? Is there real value in having lots of electronic friends you never meet? What purpose do they serve? And just how important are real friends, by the more traditional definition? Here to discuss this is Susan Rowan. Susan's a speaker and author of several books, including Face to Face, How to Reclaim the Personal Touch in a Digital World.

Hi, Susan. So, I don't think there's anything wrong with digital friends, those people you never meet in real life. Everybody has them. That's not going to change. And in fact, I suppose there's some real value in those kinds of connections, right? Right.

And, you know, Joseph Epstein, in his book on friendship, came up with something that I think is true. We now have something called techno friends. I have a friend in India we've never met, we've never even talked. It's been strictly talking on email. But we both feel an affection and a kinship beyond business. And I think a lot of us have that. But, you know, we also in our life want friends whom we can call when something

goes wrong and something is good. Sometimes we need the friend that we can call when we need the ride to the emergency room. That's that close-knit friend. And we can meet those people and work, but not if we're just staying in touch through gizmos. It's got to be something that happens not only on the phone, but in those rooms over the cup of coffee or even the bottle of beer. Often, though, people will complain that there aren't the opportunities, there aren't the places to go to meet people, unless you go to a bar, which a lot of people don't want to do. And, yeah, you could meet people online,

but then that gets back to the whole electronic thing. But really, the opportunities aren't what they used to be. And then this is me sounding like my mother. Go out, you'll never meet anyone sitting at home. For this century, you'll meet everyone sitting at home, but it won't have the same value. What we need to do, especially because a lot of us work in such isolated situations, is make sure when that invitation comes that we put ourselves in situations. All of our communities have chambers

of commerce. We have rotaries. How about this? Go to your community bookstore that brings in a local author for a book event. Here's who you're going to meet, people who read. How could that possibly be bad? You know, and I know people that do. They meet people in bars and jazz clubs. They join hiking clubs. You've got to put yourself in situations where there are other people, or this is a very isolated world, and the result of being isolated is it doesn't contribute to our health. The research shows people who live longer and live healthier have social connections. Well, and many people do find themselves in situations, in rooms with other people, but there's often that kind of petrifying fear of actually talking to someone. And I wonder, you know, what is that fear?

It is the fear of what? What stops people from saying, hi, how are you? My name's Mike, and it's nice to meet you. Oh, actually, what's been interesting is Dr. Philip Zimbardo and Dr. Bernardo Carducci have done a lot of research on shyness. They're shyness experts. And what has been found over at the Stanford Shyness Clinic, when I first wrote How to Work a Room, 80% of American adults, according to research, self-identified as shy. Now it's up to 93% of us. Dr. Zimbardo said he attributed that very high statistical jump to technology.

So first of all, a lot of us are shy. Even I am. Sometimes you walk into a room and you go, oh, what am I doing here? You know, there's so many other things I should be doing. So one thing is shyness. The other thing is there's some what I call mother's or even father's dire warnings. And one of them is we were taught don't talk to strangers. You walk in a room, it's an event, it's a party, it's a business conference, it's a fundraiser,

and you see all these people and go, who am I going to talk to? What am I going to talk about? It is very daunting. The important thing to know for all of our listeners is 93% of the people in the room feel the same way. You can even start the conversation about that. First time you're here, you're a member of the organization. You can even say, boy, am I glad I made it. You know, I had an extra hour on the freeway and I found it hard to find a parking space. You know, it's the little throwaway

lines that we don't practice about the things we have in common that we call small talk. That's the place that we start. If you remember, everyone feels the same way and you came there to meet people and the chances are, if there are a hundred people in the room, there are like 95 lovely people who'd be happy to talk to you. Well, I imagine it's partly that fear of rejection that if you start a conversation with someone that they'll not want to talk to you and reject you, and that never feels good, so you don't start the conversation. But that almost never happens. Sometimes we fear that, and you know, they say, think of the worst thing that could happen and it usually doesn't. Some people are shyer than you, so they don't know exactly what

to say. But I kind of give this tip that I think really works. If we walk into every room and we make it our goal to make other people comfortable with us instead of worrying about our own comfort. That kind of switches that thing in our brain. And then you become or we all become a little more outgoing if we see what we can do to make other people comfortable. And that links to one of the roadblocks and the remedies, which is instead of waiting for people to come over to you, act like the host. This is according to Dr. Adele Shealy. And hosts do what they can to make other people comfortable.

Pretend it's your party. Well, sure. When you're the host of the party, there's a very different mindset. You're much more, I don't know, in control and confident because it's your party. So why not pretend this is your party? Right. You know, I have an aunt who I won't name. She was a guest everywhere. Bring me food. Tell me amusing stories. We all know people like that. Make me have a good time. Well, and then there are the other people. They introduce you to other people. Even if they

just met someone, they say something nice. They make the introductions. They make you feel comfortable. They notice what you're wearing. They tell you that what they're eating is delicious. You should try one. They're just that kind of person. And we all really have had host training. Most of us know how to treat people when they're invited in our homes. So we just need to take those transferable skills to those events where we're not actually the host, but we can act like one. How important do you think it is if you're going to go to an event to actually deliberately sit down and come up with some things to talk about, to have them on the tip of your tongue? Mike, you're talking to a former school teacher.

We must prepare. You know, that's what makes us more comfortable if we do our homework. And when I say prepare, you know, not word for word, but read your paper. Read a local paper. Read an online paper. Prepare. Prepare your attitude. Prepare a conversation.

You know, the other thing you can prepare are some strategies for getting into a group of people. Well, let's talk about that. That's a universal problem of, you know, walking into a room and trying to fit into a conversation. Oh, my God. That's the worst. Everyone's in a group and you're thinking, nobody for me to talk to. They all have their people. What you can do when you see a group, and this is what I advise,

in all my presentations, I say this to all my audiences, go over to the group that's having the most fun, the one that's a little more boisterous and outgoing. A, they'll be more open to someone joining them, and B, why would you pick the group that looks like they're not having fun to go over and talk to? Stand in the periphery, do agreeable body language, smile, nod your head if you agree with them, and when someone looks your way, you can step in. But here's the magic of the mingling maven, the person that people remember. When you see someone in your periphery when you're in a group, step back, and then you'll have included that person that was excluded,

and they will always remember you kindly. I remember hearing a piece of advice. It may have been from you from one of our earlier conversations, that if you're intimidated by walking into a room full of people, make the attempt to get there early so when you walk into the room, it isn't full of people, there's just a person or two. Oh, that was me. This is what we learned from shy people. A person that thinks of themselves as shy, the shy people never go to an event later than 15 minutes after it's called. And the reason is it's easier to be in the room

when other people come in than to walk into the room that seems already full of people. So when you're already in the room and someone has to walk past you to go to the bar, the dessert table, a smile, a nod, that's easier. But if you have to walk into a room full of people, that's tough. So shy people, there's a lot we can learn from them. But that one is probably the golden nugget. Don't go and make the grand entrance. Shy people just don't do a grand entrance. What about those people who do make a grand entrance, who do effortlessly walk

into a room full of people and they're everybody's best friend? Who are those people and what is it they have that the rest of us don't have? Well, some were raised by my mother. No, I'm kidding. You know, there's some people that just are, they're just natural in that they're comfortable in their own skin. Maybe they didn't get all those warnings that they shouldn't talk to strangers. But the other thing is, if you're around and you see someone, if you consider a magnificent mingler, watch what they do. They seem natural because they don't think they're working the room. They don't think when they're networking, they don't say, well, I'm networking.

They're just out there being. And they are wonderful teachers for the rest of us. They're the good role models. You see, you know, in fact, one of the gentlemen that I know, PJ, who said he was shy, so shy as a kid he thought it was a disease, he watched a teacher of his who he thought was great at it. And what he did is he observed what this person did, and he emulated him. And that's a way we learn how to be.

I mean, maybe there's 7% to 10 percent of us that are really comfortable in such situations. And by the way, the person that looks comfortable in a business situation may not be comfortable in a social situation and vice versa, because we're each shy in different kinds of situations. But those people seem natural. You know what it is. Those are the people that can spill wine on themselves and other people, make a comment about it, and move forward. They just seem at ease. But the most important thing is, Mike, they make us at ease with them. Yeah, and I think it's my theory anyway that that's a big element of likability,

that you like people who you feel at ease around, who make you feel comfortable, who want to hear what you have to say. You know what? And here's the hint for our listeners. When someone's talking, what we need to do is not be planning our next words. We should do something, and it sounds very easy, but it often isn't when we're worried about what to say next, and that is listen to people as they talk. Those people that make us feel comfortable, they pay attention to us. When you are really paying attention,

you'll hear the cues people give you for the conversation, and you won't be worrying about what your next words were, because you could pick up on what they've said. Well, it seems simple, but I think it's harder than it looks. It's harder than it looks, because we really are worried, am I going to say the right thing? And I don't want to offend this person. But here's the other thing that I think is very interesting is when we look at leaders and people who are very adept at this, and we had two former presidents that were skillful.

One was the late Ronald Reagan, and the other is Bill Clinton. And when people talk to them, what they've always said is, both of these people made you feel as if you were the most important person in the room, even if they only talked to you for two minutes? We can adapt that to us. How about this? If you want to be an expert at working a room, and I mean by being nice in a room and meeting and mingling

and creating relationships and connections, what you do is you do not look over someone's shoulder when you're talking to them. That's a very off-putting behavior. Just focus on the person that you're talking to and maintain eye contact, and you'll make them feel important. They'll be at ease, then you'll be at ease, and then conversation flows. So here's a situation I think people often find themselves in when they're at a party where they don't really know a lot of people.

Mostly it's strangers and whatever is being discussed, maybe it's politics, maybe it's some other kind of touchy subject, and you're not agreeing with what's being said. Do you keep your mouth shut or do chime in, or what's your recommendation? Depending on, you know, some people love to say, I think you're wrong. They like the contentious conversation because that sometimes can be fun. This isn't the place to do it. You've got an hors d'oeuvre in one hand and a beverage

in the other. But there are other ways to say I think you're wrong. There's ways to say, well, that wasn't my understanding of it. I have a different perception. there's ways to say, well, that wasn't my understanding of it. I have a different perception. It's been my experience that. And you can say what you think and feel and have observed, but I think the words you choose wouldn't be.

And maybe people can say, Susan, you're not direct, and you should just flat out say what's on your mind and disagree with people. But you know what, Mike? There are people I know that say what's on your mind and disagree with people. But you know what, Mike? There are people I know that say what's on their mind, and they pride themselves on it, and there are times I want to say to them, you know what? We don't care. Don't say it. Be a little bit more gracious. Well, I think there's a lot of wisdom in that. I think graciousness in many ways is a lost art, and maybe it's worth bringing back. Susan Rowan has been my guest.

She's the author of several books, including How to Work a Room and Face to Face, How to Reclaim the Personal Touch in a Digital World. And I've got a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes for this episode. Thanks for being here, Susan. Americans consume over 600 million pints of ketchup every year. In addition to ones in the grocery store, there are also all kinds of organic and gourmet mail-order ketchups. But of all of them, which is the best ketchup? Well, the people at America's Test Kitchen held a blind taste test of 13 different brands of ketchup, including their own homemade ketchup. And the clear winner was Heinz.

Heinz ketchup was the best. Second place went to Del Monte. And third place to Hunt's ketchup. What about the fancy mail-order brands? Well, they didn't rate very well at all. They were described as too thick, not smooth enough, or too vinegary. Even the homemade ketchup that America's Test Kitchen made themselves didn't come close to Heinz in their blind taste test, which tasters often described as perfect. And that is something you should know.

And let me take a moment during this holiday season to thank you for being a listener, for sharing this podcast with your friends, and helping us be so successful. It means a lot to me. And so Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, and enjoy the holidays. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity.

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