Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: Why You Have Your Unique Personality & Proven Ways to Create A New Habit

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Starting point is 00:00:17 You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, why buying a new car on a sunny day may just be a horrible idea. Then, what if you don't have a personality, but instead many of them? People have this idea that there is a core self and that they might be able to behave in many different ways but in the middle they stay the same and it doesn't feel like that.

Starting point is 00:00:53 But there really is no core self. There is just lots of different selves and everyone is as real as the next one. Plus some ridiculous business jargon we need to obliterate from the language. And if you want to change a habit, you have to understand how they work and how to modify them. I've never seen someone consistently stick to positive habits in a negative environment. Take the habit of watching television. Many people think they watch too much TV, but if you walk into pretty much any living room, where do all the couches and chairs face?

Starting point is 00:01:23 They all face the TV. So it's like, what is this room designed to get you to do? All this today on Something You Should Know. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like Something You Should Know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years.

Starting point is 00:02:02 She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show

Starting point is 00:02:22 one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life.

Starting point is 00:02:55 Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. You know, this part of the podcast where I'm speaking to you right now is actually the last thing I do before the whole episode is put to bed, just because it makes more sense to do it that way. And I just finished the final touches and edits on the segment you're about to hear with Rita Carter about your personality. And I think you're really going to enjoy that. But first up, if you're planning to buy something big like a car or a house, take the weather into account before you do. It can actually have a big impact on your choice. This phenomenon is known as projection bias, and it can influence purchases that you might regret

Starting point is 00:03:40 later. A convertible car, for example, may look a lot more appealing on a warm, sunny day than the one you should probably consider for good gas mileage and other practical reasons. You can fall in love with a house that has a really nice fireplace if you go see it on a gray or chilly day and miss the one down the street that has a pool, which you really might prefer. It may not be as much fun, but experts say the best days to go house hunting or car shopping are not bright and sunny days. We're much more likely to take safety and security features into mind on rainy days, and less likely to splurge on unnecessary features. And that is something you should know.

Starting point is 00:04:29 Who are you? Think about that. The you at work is a very different person than the you when you play with a child, or the you when you're relating to your significant other. So which of those is the real you? Or maybe they all are. Maybe that's what really constitutes your personality, the ability to be different in different situations.

Starting point is 00:04:55 Rita Carter is a science writer who's written a couple of books about this, including The People You Are, The New Science of Personality. Hi, Rita. So since you've written a couple of books about this, obviously this topic is of particular fascination to you, so why, where did that come from? A few years ago I was writing a book about consciousness, which is a really tricky subject, and I was looking for a way to kind of get a handle on it,

Starting point is 00:05:23 and so I started to look at people who kind of had very odd consciousness, where, you know, like they just didn't experience the world in the same way as most people do. And one of the people or types of cases that I looked at was this very strange condition of multiple personality disorder. These are the people who kind of will be one person one moment and there might be somebody else with a different name, even a different sex, the next, and with no memory of the previous personality. It seems really weird when you first come across it. But when I looked into what was happening in the brains of these people, it occurred to me that far from being really strange, what the difference between them and the rest of us is a matter of degree.

Starting point is 00:06:08 What is really surprising is that the rest of us manage to have a continuous personality at all. And that was what led me to this subject. Well, that's interesting that it's a matter of degree. But people with multiple personality disorder isn't one of the hallmarks of that, is that the individual personalities don't know the other ones. Whereas I, I may be different people in different situations, but I'm aware of that. When you look at what is happening in the brain of these people, what's happening is that they're not joining up what they are in one moment to what they are in the next. And what is amazing is that the rest of us manage to do that so well.

Starting point is 00:06:49 And, of course, we do it because we have memories that are continuous. We remember what we were thinking and what we were doing before so that here we are today, and we remember being ourselves yesterday, and we can imagine being ourselves tomorrow. And what happens with some people is that they just can't do that. And we all have that ability to a greater or lesser extent. And some of us, I mean, I believe that all of us are many different people. We have like a group of people within us. But most of those people can remember being each

Starting point is 00:07:26 other. And that is the only thing that makes us different from somebody with multiple personality disorder. And because we have different personalities in different situations, it makes us very flexible. So it's not such a bad thing. It only gets really bad if you do have these memory glitches with it, which, as I say, most of us thankfully don't have. And so to be clear, for example, when you're at work and say you're the boss, you're very much in command and control, and maybe there's not a lot of joking around, whereas when you're with a child, you're more playful and fun. And yet, even as an adult, when you're with your parents,

Starting point is 00:08:06 you feel more like a child. So those are the kind of different personalities you're talking about, right? Yeah, it's exactly that. And today, much more than in the past, we have to change to different roles and be different things with different people in different situations the whole time. So, for example, a mother, you know, like she has to be mom at breakfast time. She has to be thinking about the kids. She has to be sympathetic, think about little things the whole time. Three hours later, she might be in a board meeting where she's got to be very assertive and think about big things.

Starting point is 00:08:39 And she kind of needs to keep those things separate. And the ability to do that, to switch one type of personality off and to become another, is actually a very useful thing to be able to do. What isn't good, though, is when, like, the mother suddenly intrudes into the boardroom and the, you know, hard-headed director suddenly kind of takes over when she's meant to be mom. That's when you get the problems. And by recognizing that you have these different personalities in you, you can start to make sure that the right

Starting point is 00:09:10 one comes out at the right time. Well, that seems to confirm something I've always thought, because I get pitched often people who want to come on the podcast and talk about how you, the listener, can be your authentic self. And I've always thought, well, wait a minute. There's no one authentic self, right? I mean, that's what you're saying, is we're different people at different times with different people. There is no authentic self. Absolutely. People have this idea that there is a core self and that they might be able to behave in many different ways, but that in the middle they stay the same continuous. And it does feel like that.

Starting point is 00:09:51 But actually there are a lot of really good psychological experiments that have been done that show that people don't stay stable, even the way they think, the way they feel. Even physically, their physiological reactions to things change according to what situation they're in. So there really is no core self. There are just lots of different selves, and everyone is as real as the next one. It's only because of the shared memory, the fact that they can always remember being each other, that makes us feel as though there is something continuous there. It's a kind of illusion.

Starting point is 00:10:26 So you're describing in a very different way than I think most people have heard before what normal human personality is and how it works. And assuming you're correct, so what? What's the big deal here? Okay, the big deal is that you can say, oh, but we knew that. We know everybody's different in every situation. And yet at the same time, we spend billions of dollars every year on things like personality tests, which are meant to give you a particular category.

Starting point is 00:10:57 They're meant to tell you what the real you is. Or we spend time trying to do astrology and personality tests, all of which are about making each one of us think that we are a particular type, that true self, the core self that we're always trying to get to. What's important is I'm saying, no, forget that. When you look at the results of, say, personality testing, which gives you a particular category, say, that's the kind of common thing, you look at that and you see that when a person does that test again, the chances of them coming out as the same category are no more than chance. And yet, as I say, we spend billions of dollars every year on that particular industry. In fact, any sort of job nowadays, you will probably have to do a personality test. And yet it's kind of arbitrary what category you turn up in. It just happens to

Starting point is 00:11:49 be the one that you are at the time you do the test. So it's important for that reason alone, many, many other reasons as well, to understand that there is no core self, to stop this crazy quest for the core self, the real you. It doesn't exist. And once we realize that, we can then start to use what we have got, which is much more useful, a whole team of people in each of us, to our best advantage. When I think, though, of the different people that I am in different situations

Starting point is 00:12:21 and with different people, it's not like I can call them up at will. Maybe I can call them up if I really, really try, but usually it's more of a default. This is who you fall into when you're in that situation with that person. Exactly. Until you recognize that you have got lots of different people inside you, you will never get control of it. Because at the moment what happens is we go around thinking, oh, I'm going to be me, the same me tomorrow. And so when another personality takes over, is triggered by a new situation, we are completely taken by surprise. So I don't know if it's happened to you, but it often happens to me. I will wake up at sort of 4 o'clock in the morning and think back to something I did the night before. I think,

Starting point is 00:13:09 God, why did I do that? What was I thinking of? And that's because another personality has come out, triggered by a particular situation, done something that, you know, maybe the personality now looking back on it is really embarrassed by. And the reason that that keeps on happening time and time again in our lives, that kind of thing, is because we never knew that personality was there. The moment it was kind of out of mind, we didn't believe it was there. So we never expected it to pop up and hijack us again. And so we go on and on, making the same mistakes, doing the same things, and never quite understanding why we can't change.

Starting point is 00:13:50 But once you recognize that you've got that personality, say the personality that will lose temper or something, once you know it's there and you know what sort of situations brings it out, you can guard against it, but only once you know they're there. We're talking about personalities, and my guest is science writer Rita Carter. She's author of the book, The People You Are, The New Science of Personality. Hi, this is Rob Benedict. And I am Richard Spate. We were both on a little show you might know called Supernatural. It had a pretty good run. 15 seasons, 327 episodes. And though we have seen, of course, every episode many times,

Starting point is 00:14:32 we figured, hey, now that we're wrapped, let's watch it all again. And we can't do that alone. So we're inviting the cast and crew that made the show along for the ride. We've got writers, producers, composers, directors, and we'll of course have some actors on as well, including some certain guys that played some certain pretty iconic brothers. It was kind of a little bit of a left field choice in the best way possible. The note from Kripke was, he's great, we love him, but we're looking for like a really intelligent Duchovny type.

Starting point is 00:15:03 With 15 seasons to explore, it's going to be the road trip of several lifetimes. So please join us and subscribe to Supernatural then and now. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more.

Starting point is 00:15:41 A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today.

Starting point is 00:16:06 Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. So Rita, even though we all have these different personalities inside of us that come out at different times and with different people, it would seem that they would all have to more or less get along, that they would have to be compatible enough for us to have that experience of having a continuous personality. Unlike someone who, say, has multiple personality disorder, who has many different personalities

Starting point is 00:16:44 who don't even know each other or if they do know each other don't get along it depends everybody varies um uh in the extent to which their personalities are integrated and the extent to which they are quite separate and as you say if they're too different that can can be bad. On the other hand, if they're very different, and that's because they have been created by you having very different types of challenges in your life. So for example, take somebody who is brought up in one culture, maybe a foreign culture where like you're very repressed, you have to be very quiet and submissive or something like that. And then you go to another country, to England or to here or wherever, where you can say what you like.

Starting point is 00:17:30 There's a lot more freedom. You can, you know, behave in completely different ways. Well, you soon learn to do that. But many, many people who have that sort of too cultural thing, once they go home, the personality they were before, a more submissive or a more repressed personality, will click back in. And it's very useful for a lot of people who have to jump between two very different cultures to maintain those personalities quite separately. Because you don't want them to be mixed. You actually want to be able to jump cleanly from one to the other. I think the perception that most people have, and myself included until talking to you, is that this is more vague, that it's not different personalities so much as different tendencies within a personality, that we're this way, it's more of a behavioral thing.

Starting point is 00:18:22 Yes, I think if you ask most people how they saw themselves, they would say, oh, well, yeah, I've got lots of different sides to me. But kind of inside, I'm solid because that's how it does feel. What I'm saying is, well, no, actually, there isn't anything in the middle that stays the same. All those different what you call sides of you really are best seen as different personalities, as quite separate. Because it's simply an illusion to believe that there's anything in the middle. And as I say, that's not an opinion. opinion, if you look at the psychological experiments that have been done on people in different situations, it shows that their ways of thinking, their ways of feeling, and their ways of reacting, all these things change in different situations. The only thing that stays the same, that all their different personalities have in common, is the conviction that they

Starting point is 00:19:22 are one and the same person. So even the person, you know, with multiple personality disorder, to go back to where I sort of first got into this from, even those people believe at any moment that they are just one person. You never find anybody, unless they've come to recognize their different personalities, who will say, oh, no, there are lots of me, because at any moment you feel as though you are just one. So that's what keeps the illusion going. Well, if these are true and distinct personalities,

Starting point is 00:19:57 and let's say there's one of them that I don't like, I don't like who I am when I'm in this situation with this person, can I ask that personality to leave? Yeah, the point is that once you know it's there, you can then start to say, well, what triggers this? What brings it out? And what's it doing coming out at that time? Because all your personalities were created for a purpose. They don't come into being for nothing. because all your personalities were created for a purpose.

Starting point is 00:20:26 They don't come into being for nothing. They were always created because they were initially a reaction to a particular type of situation. And I know myself, I've got a very argumentative personality, which can be quite useful at times because there are times when you need to assert yourself and you need to be argumentative. The trouble with this particular personality is that it would often click in at times when it wasn't necessary. It would just suddenly take over and I'd be arguing with somebody and afterwards feel really bad about it. And in the course of writing this book, I discovered, I started to think, well, okay, I'll try it on myself first. And I discovered that this argumentative personality, it was kind of there to protect me. And what triggered it was actually a

Starting point is 00:21:12 feeling that I was being overwhelmed, a feeling that I was being bullied. And once I recognized that, if I ever found myself in a situation where I started to feel it coming on, it gave me the chance to say, hang on, is this really a situation where I need to assert myself against a bully? Or is it just kind of pressing some buttons? Is it because this person who's talking to me reminds me of somebody who once bullied me, but actually it's just a superficial thing about them? They're not really trying to bully me. There's no need to come out fighting. Sometimes it'd be quite good to allow the argumentative me to come out. Other times I could say, hey, no, this isn't appropriate. And so I started to get control over that particular personality and to use it to my advantage instead of kind of being hijacked by it.

Starting point is 00:22:01 And so that's the kind of way in which I think that learning about your personality can be really useful. You can start to get them under control. You said a while ago that it's a fairly universal experience that people will look back at something they did last night, another personality took over, and they look back at it now and go, I can't believe that I did that. It's interesting that I've never heard anybody, and it wouldn't seem right to say, oh, well, it wasn't my fault, it was that other personality that showed up. Because our experience is a continuous experience of a single, although multifaceted, single personality?

Starting point is 00:22:46 Well, I think that the reason that we have this very strong illusion that we are a single, continuous personality, and why it's so difficult to break it, is because I believe that has evolved precisely to make us responsible for ourselves. Because we think we have evolved in a very social, we're a very social species. We absolutely depend on each other to take responsibility for each, for our own actions. And we depend on ourselves to take responsibility for our own actions. And if we didn't do that, society would fall apart. So I believe that we have evolved this illusion of being continuous. And it's a very good thing that we have that illusion.

Starting point is 00:23:28 But just because it's very useful doesn't mean to say it's the truth. And although it has this great advantage in society that it automatically makes us responsible for what we do from moment to moment, it has the disadvantage that we also find ourselves blaming ourselves. You know, personality A, right, blames itself constantly for what personality B does. So it has both advantages and disadvantages. And no, I am not saying that in realizing that we are made up of multiple personalities, that means that it's okay to say, hey, it wasn't me that did it. Because, you know, that'd be just crazy.

Starting point is 00:24:11 Even though that does happen, you know, in courts, quite often in this country, and starting to happen in my country in England as well, it's now quite a common defense for people to claim that they were not responsible at the time because they were in such a different state of mind. Temporary insanity. And that whole issue is coming to the surface increasingly. I think it's going to be, in the future, a really big issue that we have to start dealing with. That phrase you just used, though, state of mind, I think that's what most people think this is all about.

Starting point is 00:24:49 That it's not a personality, it's just your state of mind in that moment, in that situation. But that's all that a personality is. My definition of a personality is external behavior, that is the things you do, what other people see, internal thoughts, the kind of thoughts that are going through your head, emotional reactions, the kind of emotions you are having, and the memories that you have at any time. Now, I don't know what there is to a personality other than those four components. If you can tell me what I've left out. I can't, but I have another personality that I think could.

Starting point is 00:25:38 It does seem, though, that by changing the words that we use to describe what we're seeing when it comes to personality, kind of opens up the discussion to a new level. You see, I have this idea also that we are hanging on to the notion of, we like the idea of the core self because it's not always done nowadays to talk about the soul. The soul has kind of been degraded, you know. People might laugh at you if you start to talk about the soul. The soul has kind of been degraded, you know. People might laugh at you if you start to talk about the soul. So I think we've kind of shifted to talk about self in the way we used to talk about the soul. And all I'm saying is, you know, look really

Starting point is 00:26:16 carefully at what you mean. It's very difficult to say what you mean by the self when you take out the things I just listed. There isn't very much left, really. Well, just as you've been talking, I've been thinking about different personalities that I have in different situations. And I think you're right. I mean, I think it's more than just tendencies. It's in essence, you become almost a different person in different situations. And that is what you just said, those things that make up your personality. Rita Carter has been my guest. She's a science writer.

Starting point is 00:26:53 She's written several books. And the one we're talking about is The People You Are, The New Science of Personality. And there is a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks for being here, Rita. Hey, Rita. But Am I Wrong?, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong? And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday.

Starting point is 00:27:47 Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney themed games,

Starting point is 00:28:05 and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. As I'm sure you know, making changes in your life is difficult because we are essentially set in our ways. We've developed habits over our lifetime, good habits and bad ones. And habits are hard to change, especially if it is a big change you want to make. I'm sure you and everyone else on the planet has tried to make a change and failed because it's so easy to fall back into the old ways of doing things. Well, James Clear has a solution.

Starting point is 00:28:50 James is an expert on the subject. He's been studying personal change and habits for a long time. His work on the subject has appeared in the New York Times, CBS This Morning, Entrepreneur Magazine, among other places. And he's author of a book called Atomic Habits, CBS This Morning, Entrepreneur Magazine, among other places. And he's author of a book called Atomic Habits, An Easy and Proven Way to Build Good Habits and Break Bad Ones. Hey, James, welcome.

Starting point is 00:29:16 Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's great to talk to you. Thank you for having me. So I think people have heard for a long time that big change is hard and that in order to make the change, you have to break it down into doable chunks. Is that your message here? I mean, just do baby steps, slow and steady wins the race. People have heard things like this before, right? Like take small steps or take baby steps. But even if you know that you should start small, it's still really easy to start too big. And often what I find is that it's not that the

Starting point is 00:29:45 intention is wrong, but the direction of change is wrong. So here's what I mean by that. People are often outcome oriented. So the direction of change that they want is to achieve a result like lose 60 pounds in six months. But instead, I think it's often more useful to be identity oriented or build what I call identity based habits. So rather than trying to lose 60 pounds in six months, you can ask yourself, well, who is the type of person that could lose weight? Well, maybe it's the type of person who doesn't miss workouts. And so then you're focused on building that identity. So the shift is not saying, oh, just choose a lower number or lower your ambitions or lower your goals. The shift is focus on the process and the identity, focus on being coming

Starting point is 00:30:25 that type of person, and then the results will fall naturally. So like, you know, the, the goal is not to run a marathon. The goal is to become a runner. The goal is not to write a book. The goal is to become a writer. And there's something very different from saying like, I want this to, I am this. And so if the focus can be on becoming the type of person that you want to become, the results can fall naturally. However, you may not know what if you want to be a writer, you may not know what it means to be a writer. You may not know what to do or you want to be a runner. You may not know exactly what that means in terms of daily habits. So how do you know what you don't know? A really simple way to back into this is to just kind of reverse engineer from the outcome.

Starting point is 00:31:09 So people know that they want things like, I want to double my income, or I want to lose 60 pounds, or I want to write a book. And then so you just ask yourself, well, who is the type of person that could write a book? Well, it's probably the type of person that writes every day. So I have one friend, another writer, who his habit is to write one sentence each day. And of course, there are plenty of days where he will write more than that and write a full page or something. But there are also days where things just get really busy and life is crazy. His kids are sick or something's crazy at work. And on those days, he can only manage to write one sentence. But this is where I think small habits are more useful than maybe they appear on the surface. You know, like when people,

Starting point is 00:31:50 if you're trying to build a workout habit and you do five pushups a day, that's your small habit. Well, it's really easy to dismiss that and say like, well, you know, what is five pushups going to do? That's not going to get me in shape. What is writing one sentence going to do? That's not going to finish a book. But the point sometimes is not about the result. It's about reinforcing being that type of person so that you can get to the end of the day and say, you know what? I had to travel today. I was on the plane for six hours. It was a crazy day. All I could manage to do was five pushups when I got to the hotel, but I'm still the type of person who doesn't miss workouts or my kid was sick and you know, I had to babysit them all day or take care of them. I

Starting point is 00:32:25 had to go run an errand for my parents and I barely had any time to write, but I still got one sentence in and I'm still the type of person who writes one sentence every day. And it's really about reinforcing being that type of person. And that seems to count for very little on a daily basis, but it ends up counting for a lot in the long run. And that's one of the lessons of building small habits is that on any given day, they're very easy to dismiss. I mean, what is the difference between eating a salad or eating a burger and fries for lunch? It's almost nothing. The scale looks the same at the end of the day. Your body seems the same in the mirror, but it's only when those choices, those daily actions compound over two or five or 10 years, that the difference

Starting point is 00:33:06 between a choice that's slightly better or slightly worse becomes like very apparent. One of the things that concerns me always about when people say, you know, you just set this intention to do this little thing every day, that you kind of set yourself up for failure, because there are going to be days where even writing one sentence isn't going to be possible. And then I didn't write my sentence today. And then the house of cards tumbles. Yeah. So this is a very common thing, especially with habits. Diet is the most common one where you see this kind of all or nothing mindset. You know, people start a diet, they do it for four or five days, then their friends want to go to happy hour and they, you know, have a bunch of drinks and binge eat.

Starting point is 00:33:48 And all of a sudden it's like, well, why even bother? It seems like I must not be built to follow this diet. I guess I should just quit. And this all or nothing mindset is, you know, it's a toxic kind of thing to mix into the formula of trying to build a better habit. And the key that I like to keep in mind is that all habits streaks. So doing a diet four days in a row or writing one sentence for a month in a row, um, all habits streaks come to an end at some point. And the mantra that I like to keep in mind is never miss twice. So, you know, okay. I wish I hadn't been jade with my friends and

Starting point is 00:34:21 fallen off course of the diet, but let me pour all of my energy into making sure the next meal is a healthy one. And I think that mantra of never miss twice is a healthy way to deal with the fact that life will throw unexpected emergencies your way, and you can't predict the future. So you need to be willing to adapt and not slide into this all or nothing pitfall. It sounds a lot like what you're talking about is self-discipline rather than habit. And I imagine at some point it becomes a habit. Like, I brush my teeth every day because it's a habit. I just brush my teeth. There's never a day that I don't.

Starting point is 00:34:55 I just do. But sticking to a diet every day takes much more effort and is much more likely to fail than brushing my teeth. So, so what's the difference between self-control and habit and does it lead the self-control lead to habit or what, what's the process there? Technically speaking, a habit is a behavior that you can perform more or less automatically. So like you just described, you brush your teeth without really thinking about it. So, you know, in a sense, people don't really feel like they're using self-control there because it's just an automatic response to a specific situation.

Starting point is 00:35:30 Self-control, you could think of as being more effortful or more a more conscious process where you're like actively thinking or resisting temptation or pushing yourself to do something that maybe you don't feel like doing. Interestingly, although you just said like, oh, it sounds like we're kind of talking about self-control here. I actually don't think self-control or willpower is a very effective way to push change. So one way that I will phrase it is that I've never seen someone consistently stick to positive habits in a negative environment, you know, like a negative environment being defined as an environment that is running against the grain of what you're trying to achieve. Take the habit of watching television. You know, so many people think they watch too much TV.

Starting point is 00:36:11 But if you walk into pretty much any living room, where do all the couches and chairs face? They all face the TV. So it's like, what is this room designed to get you to do? If you don't want to watch TV in that environment then you have to overpower or use a lot of self-control and I don't think that's a good recipe for watching less TV so to speak so the question is well what can you do and I think it's much more effective to redesign the environment so that it does not require self-control so in the television example you could there a variety of

Starting point is 00:36:41 things you could do you could take the the chair and turn it away from the TV. So it's, you know, maybe facing a bookshelf or something like that, or the couches face each other to promote social conversation instead friction of watching television. So you could like take the batteries out of the remote control so that it takes you an extra five or ten seconds to turn it on. And maybe that's enough time for you to say, do I really want to do this or am I just kind of mindlessly turning on the television? You could unplug the TV after each use and then only plug it in if you can say the name of the show that you want to watch. So you're not allowed to just like turn Netflix on and find something. I don't know what the number is, but we've all heard that, that for any action to become a habit, you have to repeat it. Well, I don't know, what is it? 30 times, 20 times, something like that. Are you on board with that? Yeah. So this is a really common question I get, you know, how many days does it take to build a habit or how many times you have to do it? Um, you'll hear 21 days, 30 days, a hundred days right now, 66 days is going around as the current, uh, hot

Starting point is 00:37:49 number because there was one study done that showed that on average it took about 66 days. But even within that study, the range was quite wide. Um, you know, if it was an easy habit, like drinking a glass of water at lunch, that take three weeks if it was a difficult habit like going for a run after work each day that might take eight months as a general rule of thumb that it's gonna be like a few months I think that's a reasonable thing to keep in mind but I think there's actually a deeper issue here which is that when we ask questions like how long does it take to build a habit there's this implicit assumption behind the question of, well, how long do I need to work until it's easier? Like how long until I can stop working or stop focusing on this?

Starting point is 00:38:34 And the honest answer to how long does it take to build a habit is forever, because once you stop doing it, it's no longer a habit. And I think that that needs to be like a mental shift that we make. Habits are not a finish line to cross. They're a lifestyle to be lived. You're really looking for a sustainable change that you can live with long term. And I think that is another reason to focus on small habits, these little atomic habits that are not intimidating and actually sustainable. Do you think it's pretty obvious if I say I want to be a writer that to get started anyway, I probably have a pretty good idea of what that means? Or do I really need to go and study what writers do to become writers? Well, I think it depends on what level of

Starting point is 00:39:20 performance you're talking about. So for the fundamentals, the fundamentals are often unsexy kind of because they're well known, like everybody sort of knows them. So that, that part, uh, yeah, most people could probably figure out. But the problem is we often get like off course with, um, with all these, we try to optimize the last like 2% of stuff that, you know, doesn't really make much of a difference. Take working out. People want to get in shape. And so they're like, well, what's the best and so they're like, well what's the best workout program? And like, what kind of protein powder should I have?

Starting point is 00:39:48 What are the best knee sleeves? What kind of running shoes should I get? And all of that stuff, it makes the last 2% of difference. The thing that makes 98% of the difference is, are you not missing workouts? Are you putting your reps in? And yeah, I think most people can figure out

Starting point is 00:40:04 the equivalent of, what does it mean to put in my reps? Now, as you get closer to elite performance, then the details and the strategy start to matter more. In a sense, habits create the foundation for mastery. So, you know, if you think about like playing chess, if you want to be a grandmaster, you already have so much of the game on autopilot. You know how all the pieces move, you know, all the opening moves and sequences, um, you have automated and

Starting point is 00:40:30 habitualized so much of that process that now you have the mental space available to think about, okay, if I make this move, my opponent will do this and then I'll do that and back and forth. So when you get to the elite levels of performance, it's not as obvious, uh, than that, that maybe requires more strategy. But for the average person, most of the time, I think the fundamentals are quite clear. I think, though, as I look back on my own life, the decision to make a change is one thing. And then to actually start, to actually go to the gym for the first time or to whatever it is, to actually start can be a little scary and maybe hard to do. I think that's true in a broad sense.

Starting point is 00:41:16 Like, yes, we are just kind of talking about how to get started. And on a daily basis, habits are really an exercise in getting started each day. If you can start a behavior day in and day out, then effectively it is a habit. But there's something about, uh, there's something in me that resists that idea of like, just do it or just get started. It just sounds so, uh, kind of like flippant or just like it dismisses the process. And this is one of the reasons I wrote atomic habits is that I felt like we needed a framework or a playbook for actually putting this into action. You know, I mean, what does this what does it look like?

Starting point is 00:41:49 Everybody knows like, yeah, just do the work. But OK, but what should I actually do? One thing to just like build on this concept that you just laid out there. One of the strategies I shared is what I call the two minute rule. And the basic idea is you take whatever habit you're trying to build and scale it down to just the first two minutes. So, you know, read 30 books a year becomes read one page or do 20 minutes of yoga every day becomes put, take out your yoga mat, um, or run three miles becomes put on your running shoes and step out the door, whatever you can do in two minutes or less. And the idea is to habitualize that, to habitualize the beginning of it. I had a reader who actually

Starting point is 00:42:26 did this. He ended up losing over a hundred pounds. Um, and one of the things he did early on was he went to the gym, but he wouldn't allow himself to stay for longer than five minutes. And so it sounds silly. It sounds crazy, but he would drive to the gym every day, get out, do like half an exercise, work out for five minutes and then leave. And he did this for like six weeks. And eventually it was like, you know, I'm coming here all the time. I kind of feel like staying longer, you know, doing more. And it sounds silly, but the thing that he was mastering was the art of showing up. And so often people try to optimize for the finish line for like losing, you know, a hundred pounds or, um, meditating for 30 minutes

Starting point is 00:43:03 a day or whatever the outcome is they want before they optimize for the starting line. And the key insight here is a habit must be established before it can be improved. If you don't master the art of showing up, if you're not there every day, there's nothing to optimize. And so in a sense, yes, I'm saying just do it or just get started. But in a more practical or actionable sense, I'm saying, what are the tactics we need to employ here? And one of the tactics is, let's scale the habit down to two minutes or less

Starting point is 00:43:31 and just focus on mastering the art of showing up. And then once you do that, once you're there every day, you have options. Talk about the Goldilocks rule, because I think that's really important. One of the most motivating things is to feel progress, to experience progress. And humans actually, you can map this out.

Starting point is 00:43:49 Researchers have mapped this out where we experience kind of peak levels of desire or peak levels of motivation when we're working on a task of just manageable difficulty. So this is the Goldilocks rule. Not too hard, not too easy, just right. So the example I like to give is, you know, say you're playing tennis and you're playing against someone who's really good, like Roger Federer, Serena Williams, a professional. Well, that's going to get boring pretty quick because you're going to lose every point. Conversely, if you play against like a five-year-old, that's going to be boring because you're going to win every point. But if you play against someone who's like your equal,

Starting point is 00:44:19 they win a few points, you win a few points, you have a chance to win the match, but only if you're like really trying. That actually is very motivating. It gets you engaged. Same thing is true in the gym or with other habits, which is first, you need to do what I just said a couple of minutes ago. Master the art of showing up. Make sure you're there so that you have options and can improve. But in the long run, to stick with a habit, to continue to make progress, to feel

Starting point is 00:44:45 motivated, you need to kind of live in this Goldilocks zone where you're just advancing a little bit. You're kind of living on the perimeter of your abilities. You're winning enough to feel motivated to still show up, but you're being challenged enough that you're still engaged and you want to try hard to advance. So they're, you know, reading is a reading habits are a good example of this. Some of the most effective reading programs in schools are the ones that tailor them to the students so that the student is just on the edge of their reading ability. You know, if it's something that is like two grade levels below them, well, it's boring. They can just read it all day long. And if it's two grade levels above, then maybe they're getting kind of upset

Starting point is 00:45:21 and frustrated because it's too challenging. But if you're right on the edge, then they have a reason to keep learning because they're interested and engaged. Well, it's a refreshing look at how habits and change work, and it makes a lot of sense, and you've clearly done your homework. James Clear has been my guest. His book is Atomic Habits, an easy andes. There's a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes and his website, jamesclear.com, and there's a link to that as well. Thanks, James. Great. Yeah, wonderful. There is certainly no shortage of business jargon.

Starting point is 00:46:02 It's everywhere. So a writer at Inc. Magazine published a list of corporate phrases that we could all probably live without because they're pointless and unnecessary. For example, outside the box. At this point, outside the box is such a cliche that using it shows that you're really thinking inside the box. Move the needle. I actually use move the needle because I think people know exactly what you mean when you say that. But anyway, he doesn't like move the needle because we live in a digital world and we don't really ever see needles on analog dials move much anymore. I don't have the bandwidth.

Starting point is 00:46:43 What you mean is you're too busy, so why not just say that? Touching base. Well, what does that mean exactly? What is touching base? Does that mean we're having a quick meeting? Are we having a discussion with no agenda or what? On my radar screen. That's a phrase used largely by people who have never actually seen a radar screen. Value added. I hear that one a lot. But he suggests that why don't you just say added value? Out of pocket. Well, when are you ever in pocket?

Starting point is 00:47:16 Saying out of pocket is just a convoluted way of saying that you won't be taking calls or answering emails during a time that you normally would. Core competencies. Oh, that's a big one. And again, that's just a fancy way of saying stuff I'm really good at, but that wouldn't sound so good in a corporate meeting room. And that is something you should know. Tell a friend about this podcast.

Starting point is 00:47:42 Help us grow our audience. Help us move the needle. I'd really appreciate it. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager,

Starting point is 00:48:07 but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot,

Starting point is 00:48:33 and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook. Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Contained herein are the heresies of Redolph Buntwine, erstwhile monk turned traveling medical investigator. Join me as I study the secrets of the divine plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth that ours is not a loving God

Starting point is 00:49:04 and we are not its favored children. The Heresies of Randolph Bantwine, wherever podcasts are available.

Something You Should Know - SYSK Choice: Why You Have Your Unique Personality & Proven Ways to Create A New Habit

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