Something You Should Know - The 5 People Who Will Ruin Your Life (If You Let Them) & How to Make Motivation Work For You

Episode Date: April 5, 2018

Could some freaked-out passenger actually open the door on an airplane in the middle of the flight? There have been news reports of attempts to do so – but is it possible? That is one of the things I discuss regarding how things work on commercial airliners to begin this episode. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3023336/The-answers-question-ve-flying.html) There are five types of people who can ruin your life. All five are what you would call “high-conflict” types of people. Bill Eddy has some ways for you to handle these people so they DON’T ruin your life. In fact when you implement his strategies, these people won’t bother you much you at all. Bill is the president of the High Conflict Institute and author of the book 5 Types of People Who Can Ruin Your Life. (https://amzn.to/2JjIBOH)  Ever been in an elevator where some guy is wearing way too much cologne? That happens because a lot of men are clueless about HOW to apply it – they think the more the better. So I will explain GQ Magazine’s recommendation on how men should apply cologne in just the right way. (http://www.gq.com/style/blogs/the-gq-eye/2013/04/how-to-put-on-cologne-guide.html) You know what motivation is – right? It’s that thing that gets you to your goal. But where does it come from? Why do some people seem more motivated than others? Jeff Haden knows. He is a speaker, researcher and author of the book, The Motivation Myth: How High Achievers Really Set Themselves Up to Win (https://amzn.to/2q8Dvg4). Listen and you will have a much better handle on how motivation works and how to make it payoff for you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today on Something You Should Know, there have been a few cases in the news of people trying to open the door on an airplane mid-flight. Is that actually possible? Then, how to deal with people who make your life difficult. And you know exactly who I mean. They're really preoccupied with themselves. They're just looking at their own self-interest. They lack empathy. They feel entitled. And they want everyone to think they're superior.

But they're really like everybody else. Also, a lot of men have no idea how to apply cologne and they use way too much. Let's fix that. Plus understanding motivation so you can use it to get the things in life you really want. Motivation is actually something you can create on your own through effort, and it isn't something that you have to find through some external means or sources or inspirational posters or however you want to frame that. All this today on Something You Should Know. As a listener to Something You Should Know,

I can only assume that you are someone who likes to learn about new and interesting things and bring more knowledge to work for you in your everyday life. I mean, that's kind of what Something You Should Know is all about. And so I want to invite you to listen to another podcast called TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks. Well, you see, TED Talks Daily is a podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday in less than 15 minutes.

Join host Elise Hu. She goes beyond the headlines so you can hear about the big ideas shaping our future. Learn about things like sustainable fashion, embracing your entrepreneurial spirit, the future of robotics, and so much more. Like I said, if you like this podcast, Something You Should Know, I'm pretty sure you're going to like TED Talks Daily. And you get TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts.

Something You Should Know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. You know, I was on the radio for many years before doing this podcast, both at local radio stations on the air as well as doing national programs, including the radio version of Something You Should Know, which ended about a year ago.

Never in my radio career did I get the amount and the high quality of listener feedback that I get from doing this podcast. Whether people write to me to tell me their story or to argue with what a guest said or just to say hi. It is tremendous and I love it. It's so fun. And if you ever need to get a hold of me, you can get me at mike at something you should know dot net. The question I'm often asked by listeners is, you know, how can I support this podcast? And what I tell people, my answer is that if when you listen, if you happen to hear an advertiser that sounds interesting to you, check them out, try them out. Many of them give free trials or deep discounts

in the beginning so you can try them out with little risk. And, you know, we vet all of our advertisers. In fact, pretty much every advertiser now, when they come on board, we have a phone call, a conference call, so we can talk to them and they can talk to us and I can vouch for every advertiser on this program. So if you want to support the podcast, that is a great way to do it. First up today, I'll bet you have questions about how commercial airplanes work. I know I do. Most people do.

When you get on an airplane, you wonder about the systems and things. How does it all work? For example, how does the pilot start the plane? Is there an ignition key? Well, no, there is no ignition key on commercial airliners. It's a little more complicated than that. An air start motor rotates the jet engines before adding some fuel,

and then that starts the ignition, which means that for the pilot there are some levers and buttons that need to be pushed and moved, but there is no ignition key. Does the crew eat the same food as the passengers? Well, for pilots, the food typically is the same as the food served in business class. Some airlines provide a menu for pilots to choose from. And while it is recommended that the pilot and the co-pilot eat different entrees in case of food poisoning, it's not a hard and fast rule. Now, it's rare for flight attendants to be provided meals on flights under 12 hours, but they are allowed to eat meals that are left over from the passengers, and they can bring their

own food. How much fuel does an airplane use? Well, the amount of fuel that's consumed depends on the aircraft type, the altitude, the flight path, and the weather. A Boeing 767 on a flight from London to New York would burn about 75,000 pounds of jet fuel, while a Boeing 747 or an Airbus A380 might use twice that amount. Why do airplanes leave long, white trails in the sky? These condensation trails form when humid exhaust from a jet engine cools very quickly in colder, drier, higher altitudes. It's not unlike the fog that results when you exhale

on a cold day. Could the plane's door be open mid-flight? This ranks among passengers' biggest fears, but it is extremely unlikely, if not impossible. The pressure inside the plane is much greater than the pressure outside the plane, which means the door is constantly being forced closed. You would have to be Superman to open that door in mid-flight. And that is something you should know.

When I say the phrase high-conflict personality, I bet somebody pops into your head, someone you know. Perhaps several people you know come to mind. These are the people who can really make your life difficult. And I suspect all of us have people like this in our lives. Family, friends, people who, for all their good qualities, can have this high conflict personality that can make life difficult. So what's the best way to deal with them? Well, Bill Eddy is a guy who has the answers. He's analyzed these people closely. He's the co-founder of the High Conflict Institute. He's an attorney, a family law specialist, and he's author of a book called Five Types of People Who Can Ruin Your Life.

Hey, Bill, welcome. Thanks so much, Mike. Looking forward to speaking with you. You know, there's that old saying, or I don't know if it's an old saying, but I've said it a few times. You know, life would be so much easier if it weren't for people. But maybe what people really mean by that, if it weren't for the kind of people that you're talking about, the high conflict people, the people that cause the problems, who are these people?

Well, we find basically five different types, and they pop up anywhere. They could pop up in family conflicts, workplace conflicts, neighbor disputes, etc., even with strangers. And they seem to all have in common a lot of blaming other people, all or nothing thinking, unmanaged emotions, and extreme behaviors. So they all kind of have that. They usually catch you by surprise. It's almost shocking. It's like, oh, wow, I didn't realize he or she was going to be like that about this. Oh, yeah.

Who hasn't had that experience of, well, where did that come from? What? And so now these people, these five types of people, they have names. I mean, the world of psychology has identified these people and put labels on them. So can you run through them real quick? Yeah, real quick. But one thing I want to say about putting labels on people is don't do it openly with people. Don't tell them, I think you're a high conflict person or one of these five, because they'll make your life miserable. So the five

overlap with five personality disorders. And it doesn't mean they have a personality disorder, but they usually have some traits. So narcissistic personality, that's one a lot of people are aware of nowadays where they're really preoccupied with themselves. They're just looking at their own self-interest. They lack empathy. They feel entitled, and they want everyone to think they're superior, but they're really like everybody else. They're not superior. Then we have your sociopaths or antisocial personalities

who are really con artists. They're manipulators, bullies. They like to dominate other people. they lack remorse, etc. Then you have people with borderline personalities, and this is a confusing name, but basically think of them as on the border between love and hate. For practical purposes, that's what happens. You see them sudden mood switch. And sometimes they're just super friendly, affectionate maybe, and then they're outraged and ready to punch you or

storm out of the room or something like that. So the wide mood swings. Then people with paranoid personalities who are really suspicious. They think everyone's got a conspiracy against them. They think you're out to get them, so they're going to get you first. And then there's the histrionic. That's the very dramatic, emotional, everything's exaggerated. So you put those together with those four characteristics of preoccupied with blaming others, all or nothing, thinking, unmanaged emotions, and extreme behavior of high-conflict people. And we have five types of high-conflict people. And one thing that they do, the high-conflict people, is they tend to target somebody, and they pick on that person. And it might be someone they're getting divorced from, or someone at work.

And by the way, people at work now say the biggest problem is other people, certain other people. So what we're seeing is this pattern, and it seems to be growing. So where do you suppose this comes from? I mean, people develop these personality traits that are outside what we consider normal, but why? How? Is it something from childhood? Are they born this way? Where does it come from? Well, it seems to be very much part of personality development, which surprisingly occurs mostly by the age of five or six. By then, we're kind of the basic framework of who we're going to be. And so every case I've seen with adults goes back to childhood. Technically, since I'm a therapist, a licensed clinical social worker, I can diagnose people and I'm not supposed

to diagnose them with a personality disorder until they're adults, because up to then are formative years. For example, all teenagers on any given day are narcissistic, borderline adults, if they're stuck in that pattern, yeah. But it goes back to childhood. So let me say something about that. Part of it seems to be genetic. We have a tendency towards certain characteristics that we're born with. And so someone might have some personality traits that make them more introverted or more extroverted or make them vulnerable to becoming an alcoholic or vulnerable to becoming a narcissistic personality. So part of it is genetics at birth, but part of it is what happens, especially in early childhood,

that tilts people more towards or more away from these characteristics. So it's tendencies, but life experience then fills in the gap. So in a way, you might say it's nature and nurture, you know, genetics and environment. Do you think that people who fall into these five categories know there's a problem? No. That's one of the big problems is they don't know there's a problem. And for them, it's really, this is who I am, this is fine. And if you have a problem with it, it's all your fault. So that's part of the problem is they don't reflect on themselves. They don't go, oops, I shouldn't have done that. I better do it different next time.

Instead, what they go is, oops, you messed up. You know, you better change. You better quit being that terrible person you are to somebody else without looking at themselves. But isn't there a risk of being too far the other way where everything's my fault and, oh, I'm so sorry, and I'm sorry you're upset, and, oh, it must be me? Yeah, yeah. And the ideal with everything about human behavior and human personality is balance.

And so, yes, you want to reflect on yourself, but you don't want to be so self-critical you're immobilized. And as a therapist, I've worked with some people like that. As a lawyer, I've worked with people like in high-conflict divorces where one person does all the blaming and the other person is depressed and blames themselves. Neither one of those is a healthy thing, but people don't become high-conflict personalities that blame themselves all the time. You basically don't hear from them because they isolate themselves and they're discouraged and they don't bother people. So yes, you could go too far with that. So the question is balance. That's the key. So in dealing with high conflict people and these five different types of people who can ruin your life, is the strategy the same across the board for all of them or does each one have its own individual strategy?

Well, the answer is yes to both of those. Across the board, there's some things, there's a method I call the CARS method. It's connecting analyzing responding and setting limits what that is is across the board it helps first of all calm them down by connecting with them tell them you you know you have some empathy attention respect for them even if that's the opposite of how you feel that's what calms people down. Second is helping analyze their choices, your choices, their choices. Focus on the future rather than the past behavior. Third is responding. Usually they have misinformation. They distort information.

So responding with accurate information. Don't say you're distorting. Just say, look, here's some information that may be helpful and the fourth thing is setting limits because high conflict people don't stop themselves so the people around them have to stop them stop them from talking stop them from hitting stop them you know society has to stop them at some to some extent so these four things with all of them, but there's some refinements with each of these personalities. So let's say you're dealing with a narcissist. It's real easy to engage in an argument with a narcissist about who's superior because they think they're superior, but the behavior that they have makes everyone around them think they're inferior. And so the temptation is

to say, you're not so hot, buddy. You're the idiot. I'm the smart guy here. And don't do that. That doesn't work. So that's specialized for narcissists. Don't engage in arguing over who's smarter. Focus on what to do next. So that's just one example. But I would imagine that that applies to everybody. I mean, to sit and talk about what the problem is with them is fairly pointless. Let's figure out how to fix this. Yes. And in fact, all the principles like the CARS method I just described can be applied with anybody.

And that's the thing. It's safe. It's harmless. It's really positive human relationships. So in many ways, it's like emotional intelligence. When you have emotional intelligence, you aren't busy criticizing people. You're sharing problems. You're looking at things from their point of view, your point of view, etc. High conflict people are the people with the least emotional intelligence. And it's kind of sad because they stay frustrated and stuck in their lives.

I'm speaking with Bill Eddy. He's the author of the book, Five Types of People Who Can Ruin Your Life. You know, for a while now, I've been taking vitamins I get from Care-of. Care-of is a monthly subscription vitamin service made from effective quality ingredients that are personally tailored to my exact needs. What you do is you take this really quick online quiz that makes it really easy to figure out what vitamins and supplements you specifically need. And the recommendations you get are based on clinical research and traditional medicine, with input from doctors and nutritionists.

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pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation.

And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed, critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network

called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. So Bill, it seems from listening to you that all these strategies to deal with these high conflict people, this sounds like a lot of work. It's a bit exhausting, it seems, to have to be so deliberate in how you deal with these people. Well, part of it, I think, is getting these skills as a routine. So since I work in this field as a lawyer and a therapist and a mediator, for me, it's kind of like, oops, okay, high conflict person. I got to give them some empathy, attention, respect, focus on what to do next.

And it's pretty quick. I mean, within a minute or two, some of those kinds of things you can do and move on, even though they may be the opposite. You may feel like strangling the person. It makes your life easier to just engage briefly this way. But that's the other part of it, is don't engage too deeply with high-conflict people. If you realize this is a high-conflict person and they're spouting some kind of nonsense, don't argue with the nonsense. Just say, you know, hey, you know, I can see you're frustrated, but I got to go now. So catch you later. So you don't engage. You don't get stuck.

Don't try to change how they think. Don't focus on their past behavior and try to give them insight into themselves. It'll save you a whole lot of time and stress, and sometimes you want to completely get away from the relationship. So it's a question of managing relationships, avoiding relationships, rather than changing this other person. But while that may be relatively easy for you to do, it's easier said than done for a lot of other people who would immediately start to argue the facts and the points and what the person said rather than take that kind of high road approach that you take and move on. Well, the thing is, I think we have to all develop a little bit more self-restraint. So we realize, oops, this is somebody I'm not going to engage with.

This is somebody I'm not going to engage with. This is somebody I'm not going to argue with. There's no point. I won't feel better after five minutes of arguing, and they won't have changed their mind. And so while it may sound like or look like it's taking the high road, it's really self-survival. Walking away sometimes is the smartest thing to do. Well, it may be smart, but it's also hard. Yes, it takes some practice. And is there any sense that if you deal with people that way, that you set a new standard with that person so the next time they come back,

we don't have to start all over again, that they understand that you're not going to put up with this shenanigans and the relationship gets better? Or is it a new problem every time? It's kind of in between. They're more, you know, in a sense, a thick skull. They don't get things because they don't reflect and they don't try to change. So to some extent, it is like a new day. You're just starting over. It's like Groundhog Day. It's the same thing day after day. But my experience is five times or 10 times and the person starts to get it that, oh, okay, I'm going to leave you alone. They don't get it about

themselves. They just get it about their relationship with you. So, for example, if you have someone, let's say it's a family member, that you just don't engage and you kind of make it shorter and shorter and shorter interactions, they start realizing you're not the person to go to and complain to, so they're going to find somebody else. And it does get easier over time. It just takes sometimes a longer time than with other ordinary people. Because all of those people, all five of those types of people, have people in their life that they don't screw with. It's either their boss or somebody that they know there are limits with those people, and they don't pull this stuff with them.

To some extent, that's true. But for some of these folks folks they even do it with everybody even their closest family members who are the ones trying to help them out but you're right also to some extent there's people ago up i'm just gonna avoid so-and-so when you see this like with a workplace bully is workplace police start out picking on anybody but the ones they keep picking on, they find out they can get away with it. And it may be because management tolerates it,

or it may be because the person they're picking on tolerates it. So it's really, it's kind of a slow process, but you've got to be able to set limits. That's why that's so important, even if it's just walking away. But in that case, where it is the workplace bully picking on someone, and as you say, some people tolerate it and other people don't, what does it mean to not tolerate a workplace bully? What do you do to shut them down? Well, partly it depends on how extreme it is, and we certainly have to put responsibility on the organization, like people that have been dealing with sexual harassment. As an organization protects the perpetrator for that, that's their fault. That's not the

individual victim's fault. But some individual victims are able to say, you know, that's enough, Joe, or just walk away. They don't get stuck in some of those conversations. The problem is people don't feel allowed to be what they would think of as rude. So a lot of really nice people get picked on because they try to be nice to high-conflict people. And high-conflict people don't care whether you're nice to them or not. They just keep doing what they do because that's their habit. That's their personality. So part of it is just saying, even in your own mind, I'm not going to listen to this.

I don't believe them. Or you might say something out loud. Well, I disagree. We're going to have to agree to disagree, and I've got to get back to work. So just shutting them down, even briefly. You don't have to say you're being a bully or you're being inappropriate. Just say, I've got to go. And my last question is, is there any sense of what percentage of the population these five people combined make up?

Well, it seems to be about 10%. We don't have research on this at this point. There is research on personality disorders in the United States, and it comes out about 15% of the population meets the criteria for a personality disorder based on large random studies. But not all people with personality disorders are high conflict people. They don't all have a target of blame, someone that they put this all on. So that's why I think it's probably about 10%. and it's a lot that overlap, preoccupied with blame, but also traits of one of these five personality disorders. Well, given that it's one out of 10 people, we're all likely going to interact with these people throughout our lifetime. So it's good to have some ammo to deal with them when the time comes. Exactly. And one thing I want to say is I think they may be increasing because of the nature of

society. We're rewarding this kind of behavior in many ways through the shows we like to watch, through, you know, anger at the news and all of these things. So I think that getting the tools now is real important because the more people that know how to kind of manage and distance themselves from this, the less it's going to bother all of us. My guest has been Bill Eddy. He is the co-founder and president of the High Conflict Institute. He is a certified family law specialist

and senior family mediator at the National Conflict Resolution Center in San Diego. And his book is Five Types of People Who Can Ruin Your Life. You'll find a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks, Bill. Sure. Thank you. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives,

and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today.

Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast disney countdown i'm megan the magical millennial and i'm the dapper danielle on every episode of our fun and family-friendly show we count down our top 10 lists of all things disney there is nothing we don't cover we are famous for rabbit holes disney themed games and fun facts you didn't know you needed but you definitely need in your life so if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic,

check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. In order to accomplish your dreams, your goals, you need to have motivation to get you through. So it's important to understand just how motivation works. Does motivation strike like lightning or does it come from within? Is it the driver of your efforts, or the result of your efforts? Jeff Hayden has researched what motivation is, how it works, and some of the myths people believe about it.

He's the author of a book called The Motivation Myth, How High Achievers Really Set Themselves Up to Win. Hi, Jeff. Welcome. Oh, thanks for having me, Mike. So since it's the title of your book, let's start there with what is the motivation myth? I think most people have a sense of what motivation is and how it works. So what's the myth? Where did that come from? I was talking to Venus Williams, which if you're going to drop a name, that's a good one to drop. And clearly she's a world-class tennis player, but she also does a variety of other things.

She owns a design company. She has a fitness wear line, and she's actively involved in all of them. So here's a person who is achieving tremendous success in a variety of pursuits. And not once does she ever mention this lightning bolt moment where she had discovered her life's purpose and had all the motivation she needed to go out and conquer. And I thought about all the other really successful people that I'm fortunate enough to talk to, and none of them ever described that moment. So contrast that with lots of people I talk to that say they feel stuck, that feel they're kind of in a dead end spot, that can't figure out what they want to be and do, don't have the motivation to do anything. And they're all waiting for that lightning bolt to hit them that says,

this is who you are, this is what you should do, and you are now filled with all the motivation and determination you need to go achieve it. And so that really became the premise of the book, which is that highly successful people don't wait or don't expect to have the motivation come to them. They actually go out and create it by trying something they're interested in, working hard at it, enjoying a small amount of success, which makes you feel good about yourself, which motivates you to get up the next day and keep going. So motivation is actually something you can create on your own through effort. And it isn't something that you have to find through some external means or sources or, you know, inspirational posters or however you want to frame that.

But I've heard people say they had that lightning bolt moment that you're saying doesn't happen, but I know people who say it did happen. Well, I do think there are some. You can run into some people that when they were 14 decided that they wanted to be something. I have yet to meet one, and I have met a ton of people who say they haven't found that yet. So if you're fortunate enough to be that person that had the lightning bolt, well, you don't need me. You can skip me and just go on being a tremendous success. But if you're struggling or unsure or haven't had it, then this is a good place to start. And everything that I have ever accomplished, I have done that way. I have some sort of lightning bolt moment, where does the idea come from? I mean, you mentioned, okay, so you're going to run a marathon. Well, where did that come from? It had to come from somewhere.

Something spurred you to decide to run a marathon. Right. And so what you do is you just stop and say to yourself, what am I interested in? A great example is Kirk Hammett. He's the lead guitarist in Metallica. You would think a guy that plays in a band that sold 100 million albums and still somehow, even as a dinosaur band, can sell out 50,000 seat stadiums, was this guy who always had a plan and a purpose. But the sole lightning bolt moment he had was he had played for a little while and stuck his guitar in a closet because he was tired of it.

And one day he happened to look at and he said, you know, it would be really fun to play that better. And so that was his whole goal. And that has always been his goal. He's never set out to be a rock star. He just wanted to be a musician that got to play with his friends. And of course, it's become something else. But you can pick things that you're interested in. We all have things we're interested in and just say, you know what, I would like to get better at that or I would like to become whatever that thing is. And you start and you keep your head down and you do the work. And at some point you will figure out, is this right for me? Is this not right for me? I think people get stuck with the idea that they have to pick something that will be a lifelong pursuit. And I think it's a lot more fun to be what I call a serial achiever, where you set out to do something and maybe it takes you four or five years and you reach a

really high level or you've accomplished something really great. And if you get to that point and say, you know, this isn't as fulfilling or fun as it used to be. And I'm really interested in that, whatever that may be, then you can shift and you can start that process all over again. And you haven't lost anything. You haven't wasted the four or five years that you put into the other thing, because all of the skills, all of the discipline, all of the mental perseverance and character and everything else that you develop through that time, you can apply to the other pursuit. So you could actually have four, five, six things over the course of your life that you achieve at a very high level that are really, really fulfilling. Not always. For example, I know several lawyers who have put in a lot of effort to become a lawyer

and find out they hate it. And they're really stuck. It isn't like they can just go, oh, well, let's go try something else. They can't. They wouldn't make enough money. There's no way they could start over. Possibly not, although I would argue that my wife is a really good example of someone who did start over. She had a career in finance, worked for a Fortune 500 company and was a director of finance for them. And then one day decided she was interested in health care

and went back to school. And now she puts people to sleep for a living. So it's not impossible. But there are other ways to look at that. If you're a lawyer and you really don't like what you're doing, it is still possible within that field to find other things that you can do that might be more interesting. I disagree that you are truly stuck. I think there is usually a way. It may be a hard way and it may not be the fun way, but I feel like there is a way. And I've done something similar too. I decided in, I worked in manufacturing and I decided I wanted to run a plant. That was my goal. And I got to the point where I was running a plant. It took me 17 years to get there. A lot of hard work. Three years into that, I thought, you know what,

whatever my dream was, it didn't turn out to be quite like I hoped it would be. I want to do something different. And so I shifted and I started writing and I had no writing background, didn't go to school for that or anything else, but I decided I would work hard and put in the effort and I've been able to do some really cool things. So I do think it's possible. It's really hard though. I'm not going to deny that. If you have a goal of, let's say you want to lose weight and you see other people losing weight and you think, gosh, those people have such willpower. I don't think I could do that. So you decide to lose weight and the effort to lose that weight comes from where if it's not coming from motivation?

That's a really good question. Well, you have to have a reason. And that's the problem with a lot of goals. Lose weight is a great one. If your goal is to lose weight, there's nothing quantifiable about that. It doesn't mean anything. It's like saying, I want to get in better shape. You know, what does that mean? How do you judge that? How do you measure that? So like for me, when I decided I wanted to get in better shape, because I felt like my cardio conditioning was pathetic, I decided that the best way to do that was to go off and ride this 100-mile Grand Fondo that had 11,000 feet of climbing in it and all this stuff and only had about four or so months to train for it.

So that became my goal. Can I go ride that thing? As a byproduct, I lost weight. So that was how I approached that fuzzy goal and made it a concrete one. I'm wondering if maybe some of this is just semantics. I mean, if you, all right, so let's say I want to lose 20 pounds. And in that process, I have those times where I don't want to go to the gym or I want to eat that chocolate cake.

And the thing that keeps me on track, you call it working the plan, but I would call it motivation. Well, and you can get motivation, though, by working your plan. Because if you start on your plan and you go for four or five days, if you commit to yourself that no matter what, for four or five days, I'm going to work my plan. And I think anybody can do anything for four or five days. And if you can't, then you probably don't want to achieve whatever the goal is that you're even talking about. So if you do that four or five days and you follow a realistic plan that will help you lose weight, you'll get to the end of the four or five days. And if you get on the scale, you will have lost some weight.

And that in and of itself is gratifying because your hard work paid off. You can see the results. You know you're on the train and the train is heading towards the right direction or destination. And so then that, I feel like, motivates you to say, you know what, this works. I'm going to get up tomorrow. I'm going to do the same thing. So it sounds like what you're saying is that motivation doesn't push you. Motivation isn't the cause, it's the result. Motivation is a result of achievement and of feeling good about that achievement. And then you feel motivated to go and do that the next day. So it just gives you that push that's enough to make you get up the next day and do whatever your plan is. But it doesn't give you enough of a push that you're going to stick with it for six months without any gratification and without any fulfillment and

without any of those moments where you feel good about yourself. I understand what you're saying, not to wait around for the motivation to strike you, that you need to make your plan and work your plan. But the idea of running a marathon or being a tennis star or writing the great American novel has to come from somewhere. And the reason it bubbles up to the surface is it's attached to motivation. You may have other ideas that don't have the motivation attached, but the ones that you decide to pursue, you decide to pursue because the motivation's already there. Otherwise, where does this come from? Well, let's turn it around. If I asked you if there are things that you've always thought you might like to try but haven't, would you have

some items on that list? Sure. There it is. If you've got those little nagging things that are on your list or on your bucket list or things that have always seemed interesting to you or that you've always thought you wanted to achieve or the best way I like to look at it, if there are things that you would like to become, because I think when you get far enough on a path of achievement, you actually become that thing. So like the guy that wants to run a marathon, say at first he's a guy who goes out and runs, but at some point he starts to think of himself as a runner. People that start a business at first, they're just slogging along and trying to create something. But at some point they start

to see themselves as entrepreneurs and it, you get to become that thing. If you're a supervisor at first, you're just delegating and trying to establish authority. But at some point you start to see yourself as a leader. So if you think about things that you have always wanted to become, then everybody has a few of those things on their list. And that's the perfect place to start because it's something you're already interested in. It's something you already think you would like to try. You just haven't. So try. I mean, I know that sounds incredibly simple, but it's true. When you're looking back someday, when you're 80 and sitting on your rocker, I do this with myself all the time.

I don't want to look back and think, I wonder what would have happened if I had tried that. I would rather look back and say, you know, I tried a bunch of stuff that didn't really work out, but I did try some stuff that did and it was really fun. And I feel good about that. I always regret the things I didn't do a lot more than the things I did, even if they turned out wrong, because you can fix what turns out wrong, but you can never fix what you never tried to do. Sure. And there's been plenty of research of people in their later years that have said that exact thing. I regret the things I didn't try, not the things I tried and failed. Yep. You learn from your failures. You don't learn anything from not doing anything.

But I always wonder about those people. Well, you asked me if there are things I've always said I've wanted to learn to play the piano, and I've never done it. And so I start to think, well, do I say I want to learn to play the piano, or do I really want to play the piano? And it's kind of like people who want to write the great American novel, but they never do. And maybe they don't really want to do. little bit of time of trying to learn to play piano. And you'll find out, not within the first week, but within a few weeks, you'll find out whether that's actually something that you're interested in and that you have some kind of knack for, or that you just have enough interest that you're willing to put in the work to get better. And you can find out. And if you do find out after a month that, you know what,

I've gotten, I actually can play a few things. I'm figuring out how this works, but I don't really like it like I thought I would. That's cool. And you will never think about it again. And you can focus on some other goal that's on your list as well. And you won't have that thing nagging at you every once in a while. I like that idea because, you know, I don't do it and I don't know why I don't do it. And now I'm thinking, well, you know, I should have done it years ago. And now I, so it just perpetuates that I'll never do it, but why not? Why not go give it a shot and see what happens? My example of that, and I'm committed to doing something about it soon, is I've always wanted to play guitar. And, you know, I'm lucky enough to have hung out with some pretty accomplished guitarists, and I watch them, and I think,

wow, that would be awesome. And then, you know, I have picked up a guitar and tried to strum it, and thought, what, how did they even start to do that? But I've got that nagging thing, and I'm going to scratch that itch and see where it goes. And it's okay if you find out that it turns out that it's not something you really want to do. That's cool. And I actually think that's good because those little nagging goals that we all have, they do nag at us. And so clean them off your list. If it turns out to be something you really love, that's awesome. If it turns out that it isn't, that's awesome too, because then you can focus on something else. Are you really going to do it? Why haven't you done it by now? I am. Because the truth is that I am afraid I will be horrible. And so I, you know, fear of

failure affects us all. And so I am afraid that I will be just a disaster. And so I've not, but I've finally decided to quit being such a chicken. And I will try. You said at the beginning of our conversation that you've never met anybody who had that lightning bolt moment that provided the motivation to be successful. It happened to me. You personally? And when I was a teenager, I walked into a radio station and I decided then and there at that moment, this is what I'm going to do. And I've never done anything else. Really? Yep. Oh, that's awesome. Let's see. I think you're a, I, I find that I, how do I say this? Um, I, you're a lucky guy. I think, I think that's really awesome because, you know, I floundered around for quite some time and still sometimes flounder to think, you know, is this the right path? Is that the right path? I still struggle with that. I never did.

To some degree. I never did anything outside of the radio business until two years ago when, you know, the radio business is not doing very well. And I segued over to podcasting, which is doing very well. And, but, but it's similar. So I've never done, never had a job, you know, working retail or pumping gas, or I've never done anything that wasn't related to radio. That's awesome. I wish that was true for me. I wish it was true for more people. Well, life would be a lot simpler. Well, if you're going to accomplish great things, you got to get motivated. And it certainly helps to understand how motivation works and how it doesn't work and how to use it to your advantage.

Jeff Hayden has been my guest. The book is The Motivation Myth, How High Achievers Really Set Themselves Up to Win. And if you check the show notes for this episode, you'll find a link to his book at Amazon. Thanks for being here, Jeff. All right, take care, man. I know you've had the experience of being in an elevator or a room with some guy who's got way too much cologne on.

And so to prevent being that guy, I want to pass along GQ Magazine's recommendations for how men should apply cologne so as not to offend or overpower. The preferred method is the spray and dab. You deliver one squirt to each wrist and then dab your neck. Why? It doesn't have anything to do with pulse points or anything. It just happens to be where your skin meets the air most often. Next, if you're wearing a really powerful cologne, spray a burst into the air in front of you and walk through it. But only do that once, and that will prevent you from going overboard. You should never spray directly on your chest or your clothes or your neck,

because that is what makes you overpowering, and everybody in the elevator will hate you. And that is something you should know. If you haven't left a review of this podcast yet on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts, here's your reminder. Please leave a review. It only takes a second. And it's a great way to support this podcast. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper.

In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer,

unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook. Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan.

Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Rob Benedict. And I am Richard Spate. We were both on a little show you might know called Supernatural. It had a pretty good run. 15 seasons, 327 episodes. And though we have seen, of course, every episode many times, we figured, hey, now that we're wrapped, let's watch it all again. And we can't do that alone.

So we're inviting the cast and crew that made the show along for the ride. We've got writers, producers, composers, directors, and we'll of course have some actors on as well, including some certain guys that played some certain pretty iconic brothers. It was kind of a little bit of a left field choice in the best way possible. The note from Kripke was, he's great, we love him, but we're looking for like a really intelligent Duchovny type. With 15 seasons to explore, it's going to be the road trip of several lifetimes,

so please join us and subscribe to Supernatural then and now.