Something You Should Know - The Fascinating Science of Joy & Surprising Ways Technology Distracts You From Life

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Starting point is 00:00:17 You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, do you know what's the most depressing day of the year? Well, we just passed it. Then, understanding joy. There's some real science here that can make you more joyful.

Starting point is 00:00:45 For example, I discovered that there were certain things that were universally joyful. There are things like bright color, round shapes that we see in bubbles and balloons and merry-go-rounds, hula hoops. Round shapes are something that's universally joyful. Things that float and fly. Then, how well do you clean recyclable jars and things before you leave them out for pickup? And we spend so much time on our smartphones and devices, it makes you wonder what we aren't doing so we can do that. People on their smartphones swipe it between 3,000 and 5,000 times a day.

Starting point is 00:01:20 Seventy percent of the people that we research, the first thing they do when they wake up in the morning is check their phone, and the last thing they do at night. All this today on Something You Should Know. Metrolinks and Crosslinks are reminding everyone to be careful as Eglinton Crosstown LRT train testing is in progress. Please be alert, as trains can pass at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals.

Starting point is 00:01:47 Be careful along our tracks and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome to Something You Should Know.

Starting point is 00:02:14 I didn't want to say anything at the time, and now that it's over, I think it's okay to talk about it, but a couple of Mondays ago was Blue Monday. Supposedly, it is the most depressing day of the year. Blue Monday is a phenomenon that occurs once a year on the third Monday of January. This was developed by scientists at Cardiff University. They came up with this formula that takes into account six factors. These six things all tend to intersect on this one day, the third Monday of January. Dreary weather, high debt level from Christmas, the time that has elapsed since Christmas, the time elapsed since you failed on your New Year's resolutions, low seasonal motivation levels, and the lack of something to look forward to.

Starting point is 00:03:07 The good news is that Blue Monday is the one day each year that you can feel totally free to sit down and feel good about feeling lousy. And even better is the fact that it's all over. We've passed it and now we can all move on. And that is something you should know. I always love it when a topic and a guest come along, and it's all about something I never knew or ever really thought much about, and it turns out to be really interesting. Well, here comes one of those right now, and it's coming at a good time, too. The topic is joy. We tend to lump joy and happiness together, but they're not the same thing. That's why we have two different words.

Starting point is 00:03:54 Joy is something different than happiness, and in some ways it's a lot easier to be joyful, which I think of as being kind of a temporary thing, than it is to be happy, which is more of a state of being. When you find joy and bring joy into your life, great things can happen. Joy can make you happy. And while that might sound kind of obvious and maybe a bit fluffy, there's more to it than that. Meet Ingrid Fel Lee. She is an expert on design and joy, and she's been featured in the New York Times' Wired and Fast Company. She has a blog called The Aesthetics of Joy, and she's author of a book called Joyful,

Starting point is 00:04:41 The Surprising Power of Ordinary Things to Create Extraordinary Happiness. Hi, Ingrid. Welcome to Something You Should Know. joyful, the surprising power of ordinary things to create extraordinary happiness. Hi, Ingrid. Welcome to Something You Should Know. Hi. Happy to be with you. So if you ask people to define joy, I think most people could come up with a definition of the word joy, and everybody has experienced joy in the sense that they've experienced the joy of a sunset or the joy of sitting around a fire with friends or whatever it is. But what is that thing we're experiencing? What is that feeling? We often confuse the ideas of joy and happiness in our culture. And I think that's actually helpful to pull them apart. So happiness is a broad evaluation of how

Starting point is 00:05:24 we feel about our lives over time. It broad evaluation of how we feel about our lives over time. It involves things like how we feel about our work, whether we feel like we have a sense of meaning and purpose in life, how connected we feel to other people. Whereas joy is much simpler and more immediate. When psychologists use the word joy, what they mean is an intense momentary experience of positive emotion. So it's that little burst, those little moments that we feel in both our minds and our bodies that let us know we're alive and we're happy to be alive. But they are usually somewhat momentary, right? They don't have any big lasting effect, or do they? Little moments of joy might seem trivial and small in the moment, but they add up over

Starting point is 00:06:06 time. I think that's what's really powerful about these little moments of joy. So yes, each one is a fleeting moment, might last a few seconds or a few minutes and maybe an hour at the longest. But when you add those moments up, they have big effects. They can influence our stress levels, our physical well-being. They can make us feel more connected to other people. When we share joy with other people, we feel a greater sense of trust and connection and intimacy in our relationships. They can even make us more productive. When I think of those joyful moments, you know, the beautiful sunset, oh, look at that view, or you taste something that tastes like so good you've never tasted anything like it before. There's a surprise element to it, that those moments just kind of creep up on you, and then they're gone.

Starting point is 00:07:00 So how do you make this more deliberate, more a real part of your life? Let me make it really concrete. So when I first started studying joy, I thought of there were certain things that brought joy the world over across genders and ethnicities and ages. There were certain things that were universally joyful. And as I started to look at those things, I noticed that there were certain patterns, certain repeatable patterns. I call these the aesthetics of joy. There are things like bright color and round shapes that we see in bubbles and balloons and merry-go-rounds, hula hoops, round shapes are something that's universally joyful. Things that float and fly are often considered joyful. So

Starting point is 00:07:58 there are certain things that if we start to pay attention, we can notice that as we look around us, there are these little moments of joy that are embedded in our surroundings that are almost hidden in plain sight. And as we start to look for these things and bring them into our lives, we can actually create more moments of joy for ourselves and for others. And so how do you look for them? How do you, like you say, I mean, it's balloons and bubbles and round things and bright colors and all that. And, you know, I can see that. I can look around the room and look out the window and I can see some of those things. But in my mind, I'm probably thinking about something else. I'm not really focused on that. They just, they are there and they are what they are. I call this practice joy spotting. You can go out into the world. Maybe it's while you're walking your dog, or maybe it's just in the room that you happen to be in this moment right now and start to tune your senses, start to see where your attention goes and notice the things that bring you joy. A pop of bright color,

Starting point is 00:09:05 maybe it's something out in nature that you see, like a sunset that gives you this uplifting feeling and start to notice the connection between what you see around you and what you feel happening inside of you. If you feel a sense of a little lift, if you notice yourself smiling without really realizing it, bring your attention

Starting point is 00:09:26 to the connection between the things that you see around you and the feeling you get and start to reinforce that connection. I want to go back because you said that there are some things that are universally joyful, that everybody finds joy in them, and they're like, you know, bright colors or bubbles or balloons. But what is it about those things that inspires this joy so universally? That was my question when I first started delving down this rabbit hole of trying to understand what are the things that bring us joy. And what I discovered as I pulled on that thread is that there's a really good reason why we find joy in things in our surroundings. And it has to do with our evolution. We evolved to find the things in our environment that would help us thrive or our ancestors evolved to find things in our environment that would help them thrive. And those things are things like sources of nourishment, which in nature often had

Starting point is 00:10:33 vibrant colors, like ripe fruits in the treetop canopy, sources of lushness, right? Lush environments draw our attention. When we see flowers, again, they signal the locations of future food. So there are lots of reasons why these particular things that we see in our environment give us this little rush, this little feeling of joy. And the reason is that they are signals of an environment that can help us thrive. Isn't that interesting? Because it's not like you're thinking about that consciously. When you see blossoms on an apple tree or, you know, flowers on an orange tree, you're not thinking, oh, I love those flowers because one day they'll be fruit there. That's not a conscious thought, but that's exactly

Starting point is 00:11:26 what it does signal. And so we find joy in that. That's kind of amazing. Absolutely. And I think what's so fascinating to me is that even though we're not consciously aware of the reasons why we're attracted to these things, our brains carry the vestiges of that evolutionary journey. So for example, the reason we are so attracted to circles and spheres and round shapes can be seen in neuroscientific studies. Neuroscientists have placed people into fMRI machines and shown them pictures of angular objects and round ones. And what they find is that when people look at angular objects, a part of the brain called the amygdala associated in part with fear and anxiety lights up. And that part of the brain

Starting point is 00:12:15 stays quiet when we look at round shapes. And they speculate that because we evolved in a world where angular things might be antlers or thorns or jagged branches would be dangerous to us, we evolved an unconscious sense of caution around those shapes. We go subtly on the alert, whereas when we see round shapes, we're at ease and we're free to play and move joyfully and engage with the world in a free and open way. And so even though we aren't thinking about that when we look at a sharp angled table in our homes or a round table in our homes,

Starting point is 00:12:56 that's something that's going on below the surface. It seems like it would be pretty universal, but are there people who can look at a beautiful thing of flowers and say, yeah, it doesn't do anything for me? They're obviously very individual variations. So the way that I like to think about it is that joy occurs on three levels. We have our own individual experiences and personalities and preferences, and we all have things that we individually love that someone else might not understand. Maybe that's, you know, the t-shirt from the concert that you went to 20 years ago that your partner would love you to throw away, but you just can't

Starting point is 00:13:36 seem to let go of. We all have those things. Then there's a cultural level, which large groups of people who grew up around the same influences will find joy in certain things. Maybe that's a sports team or a particular food. And then there's this universal layer underneath all of it. And many of these preferences, these universal preferences are unconscious. So as we go out in the world and we learn. Sometimes these preferences get modified by our own individual experience. But deep down, most of us react to most of these things on a pretty primal level. We're talking about joy and what could be more joyful than that. Ingrid Fatel-Lee is my guest. She's author of the book, Joyful, the Surprising Power of Ordinary Things to Create Extraordinary Happiness.

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Starting point is 00:15:28 So, Ingrid, I want to go back because you were talking earlier how we sometimes confuse joy and happiness, that we use those words somewhat interchangeably. But when I think about it, we don't use the word joy very often. We say that that old T-shirt makes us happy. But it's really making us joyful, right? Yes, exactly. Those little moments of joy are things that we can find even if we struggle to find happiness in life. Right now we're in the midst of a very difficult time in world events and in many of our own lives. And yet, we can still find these

Starting point is 00:16:08 moments of joy. We don't have to be happy to find joy. Do you have to be joyful to find happiness? That's a good question. I'm not sure. But I think that it helps. And I often say that finding little moments of joy can help us become happier. And I think the reason is that often when we focus on happiness, we think about big achievements, big milestones, getting married, having a baby, getting a promotion at work, and those things are not guaranteed. And often when we do get them, then we start looking at the next milestone. Whereas when we focus on the little moments of joy, we stop worrying so much about these big milestones in life and we become more present.

Starting point is 00:16:55 We become more connected and more resilient. And these things over time start to spiral. They create these upward spirals, psychologists call them, toward happiness. So it's as if moments of joy are like the building blocks of happiness. That's the way that I see them. Yes. So what else is there in the world of science, neuroscience, and about joy? Because, I mean, if anybody anybody would know you would, and you don't, certainly don't hear this talked about very often. What else do we know that that might be interesting to talk about? Well, joy actually makes us more attractive. That's something that

Starting point is 00:17:36 I think might be surprising. But when psychologists do studies of faces, they show people's faces, and they create these computer generated faces, faces that are really, really good looking, like supermodel good looking, and then faces that are average looking. And what they find is that average looking faces that are smiling in a genuine way that are exhibiting joy are more attractive than supermodel good looking faces that are stony face that have no expression on them. So when we exhibit joy, we become more attractive to others and that can have powerful ripple effects. Joy is contagious. When we project joy, we actually give our emotions to the people around

Starting point is 00:18:21 us through our tone of voice, our gestures, our facial expressions. Even our walk can convey that kind of emotional information and can rub off on other people. And it can spread throughout our social networks. So just by having a little moment of joy, it might feel selfish, but actually it's something that you're doing that can enhance your life, but it can also enhance the lives of the people that you interact with on a daily basis. Yeah, and as you describe that, I think people can relate to that, that when you have those joyful moments, it puts a little spring in your step. It makes you feel better, which probably projects outward and other people can sense it. Absolutely. I think that's why we're more attracted to people who are in a state of joy, because we know that that emotion is going to

Starting point is 00:19:09 rub off on us. And we want that. We want to feel more joy in our daily lives. Well, and the reverse is also true. People who are joyless are not easy to be around. I think it's true that it can be challenging to be around someone who's struggling to find joy. But the reality is that we all have the potential to find joy within us. If you look at kids, you can see that we're all born knowing how to find joy. No one has to teach a child how to be joyful. They can turn an ordinary walk in the park into a magical adventure. Play is something that just comes very easily to children. And as we get older, we often find that we are judged for our joy, or we are made to feel that the things that we find joy in aren't worthy or valid, and we're pressured to

Starting point is 00:20:05 put play aside and focus on work. And I think that can often separate us from our joy. And so, I think the important thing to remember is that there are no joyless people. There are only people who may have lost their connection to joy, and it's always something that can be rediscovered. What's interesting when I think about this, and I have to admit, I have not really thought about this at all until you showed up. But it's kind of contagious in the sense like, I can remember when my son who's now 16, but when he was a baby, and he'd be sitting in his little baby thing, and there'd be like little butterflies and stuff and he and he was fascinated with or no they were bumblebees they were little stuffed bumblebees that were attached and he was fascinated and he would look and touch them and this smile would come on his face and it would make everybody else smile? And there was something very contagious about that joyful moment, simple though it may be,

Starting point is 00:21:10 and this is just a little baby. Absolutely. I can relate to this so much because I have a six-month-old, and he is just such a, you know, we call babies bundles of joy, right? But it's true. They beam out joy from their face when they encounter something new or something exciting or something that's just delightful in the world. And they transmit that to us. And we're so lucky when we get to be in the presence of someone who exhibits and exudes

Starting point is 00:21:43 joy because it's an opportunity for us to capture that and take that on as well. I remember a time when my son was very young and we were at the Vermont Country Store in Vermont and I was holding him and we were walking around the store and somebody popped a pop gun, made that noise. And my son went into absolute hysterics. He thought it was the funniest thing in the world. And so we kept popping the pop gun. He was laughing so hard and he had a very, he had a very nice laugh, a very contagious laugh. The entire store, everyone in the store was laughing. It was just this joyful moment that

Starting point is 00:22:34 he created and everybody picked up on it. And everybody was, I mean, you couldn't see anybody in the store who wasn't smiling, if not laughing out loud. You've just described an experience of that incredibly powerful, contagious effect that joy can have in one of those moments. And I think the thing to remember is that it's not a thing you have to pursue. We often talk about the pursuit of happiness. I think with joy, it's much more about allowing it to happen. You notice that the pop gun created this moment of laughter and delight for your son, and then you repeated it to allow that moment to continue. I think that's really what I'm talking about is allowing yourself

Starting point is 00:23:25 the space to notice those moments and let them expand into your life. Since he became a teenager, we've been back to that store and made that noise and he doesn't find it the least bit funny anymore. It's not funny now. It was funny then. It was really funny then. It was wonderful. But that's one of the interesting things, too, I wonder about joy is it's hard to recreate it in those kind of situations. Like, you can't, like, go back and do it again. It just doesn't quite have the magic. Some things, I think, are a moment in time like that. And part of that has to do with the fact that

Starting point is 00:24:05 I think the joy in that moment was a novelty. It was a sense of something. It was a discovery. It was something that was new. He'd probably never heard or seen that before. And that was what made it so delightful and funny. But I think there are certain things that are repeatedly joyful, things like sunsets, you mentioned, flowers, certain celebrations can be incredibly joyful, even though we do them again and again and again. Your garden coming back every year can be a joyful experience or the return of summer or spring, the first dip in the ocean. There are lots of things that can be repeatedly joyful. Well, all you have to do, it's interesting, as I said,

Starting point is 00:24:46 I haven't given this any thought my entire life until I'm talking to you about it. All you have to do is think about this for a little bit, and it kind of reveals itself, like, oh, yes, of course, this joy is wonderful, and it isn't that hard to find. But nobody ever thinks about this, except you, and it isn't that hard to find but nobody ever thinks about this i guess except you and it's pretty interesting it's often dismissed as trivial or self-indulgent or superficial right these little moments but i think that that is their deceptive power, that just by focusing on these little moments, we can unlock something that could really be the secret to happiness.

Starting point is 00:25:32 Yeah. Well, if joy shows up more or less in everybody's life at certain times with virtually no effort, imagine if you made the effort, how much more joyful your life could be. Exactly. My guest has been Ingrid Fattel-Lee. She is an expert on design and joy. The name of her book is Joyful, the Surprising Power of Ordinary Things to Create Extraordinary Happiness. And there's a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. Thank you for being here, Ingrid.

Starting point is 00:26:03 Thank you. Have a good one. From the kitchen to the laundry room for being here, Ingrid. Thank you. Have a good one. From the kitchen to the laundry room, your home deserves the best. Give it the upgrade it deserves at Best Buy's Ultimate Appliance Event. Save up to $1,000 on two or more major appliances. Shop now in-store or online at bestbuy.ca. Exclusions apply. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives,

Starting point is 00:26:35 and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool.

Starting point is 00:26:59 And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. And then there's social media coming at you. You're really bombarded by all of this if you allow yourself to be. There's nothing wrong with information. It's the side effect of not being able to stay focused on important things

Starting point is 00:27:54 because of all these distractions coming at you. Messages on your phone. Oh, now you've got to stop and check Instagram or Facebook. And then there's email messages. You've got to stop and check Instagram or Facebook, and then there's email messages. You've got to read and answer those. These are what my guest calls weapons of mass distraction. Joseph McCormick has really studied this problem, and he's written a book called Noise, Living and Leading When Nobody Can Focus. Hey, Joseph, welcome.

Starting point is 00:28:22 Thanks for having me. So at first glance, you might think, well, we've got access to pretty much all the information you can imagine, that that's a good thing. So talk about how it's a problem. The problem is, you know, if you look at the world that we live in now, we are consuming, constantly consuming information. A lot of it's useless. It's not timely. We're on our digital devices 24-7. We're multitasking. There's a lot of distractions. I mean, it seems like to live and to work means it's equated to consuming information. And a lot of that I consider to be noise or very noisy in the world that we live in. And yet, a lot of that useless information

Starting point is 00:29:06 and time spent on devices is a choice. And people could put it down much of the time. They don't need to be on it. They choose to be on it. Yes and no. I think a lot of people, with the advent of smartphones and pervasive connectivity and 24-7 information dissemination, I think a lot

Starting point is 00:29:27 of people feel like they have to. I think people subconsciously or just unwillingly or just don't really realize that they actually have a choice. And they feel like, well, when I go to work, my job is to be on all the time and I consume information. Or when you're at home, if you don't have anything to do, you pick up your phone. And at some point people made this subconscious decision that they consume information 24 seven. And the reality is you do have a choice and you need to choose when and where and how much you consume. But how is that different than say, you know, 20 years ago, 25 years ago, if I didn't have anything to do, I'd sit and consume the TV. What's the difference?

Starting point is 00:30:07 The difference is the sources of information are, they're more readily available. So before it's like I had to go on television. If they didn't have anything on, I would stare at a test pattern. Or the news came out at six and it was over, you know, five or six and it was over at seven. Now we live in an information age where in your pocket, in the palm of your hand, you have the source of all information. I can check social media. I can check news feeds. I mean, I can check anything, the barometric pressure of what it is in the Philippines if I wanted to. So that's significantly different than it was 20 years ago. And we're

Starting point is 00:30:39 living in an era of pervasive connectivity where anywhere you go, everywhere you go, you have access to information. Which sometimes is a good thing and maybe sometimes not such a good thing. I look at information like food. Food's a wonderful thing. And it always has been a wonderful thing, but I don't eat all the time. I eat breakfast and I eat lunch and I eat dinner and I choose what to... So if I look at information like food, it's like eating all the time. And a lot of that information is empty calories. So if you look at like our most precious commodity nowadays is our attention. More than time and money, it's our most precious resource.

Starting point is 00:31:18 And we squander it. It gets depleted and divided and distracted and diminished by paying attention to everything that comes my way moment to moment. So it seems the way you frame it, that what you're describing is a problem, but how do we know it's a problem? Is there research that supports that this really is a problem? Or is this just the new normal? And it may not be the good old days, the way people consumed information. And wouldn't it be great to go back to that? But we're not going back to that. This is just new and different. And maybe it's a problem.

Starting point is 00:31:52 And maybe it's not a problem. Well, I think that if you look at if you look at the level of harm of the amount of time in a day, a person spends consuming information. Let's look at social media, for example, social media is a wonderful thing, but people spend an incessant amount. The research that I had drawn in the book is people on their smartphones swipe it between 3,000 and 5,000 times a day. 70% of the people that we research, the first thing they do when they wake up in the morning is check their phone, and the last thing they do at night. So when you look at the harm, it's like where I'm spending so much of my time doing this. Well, it starts depleting.

Starting point is 00:32:26 One of the things that starts doing is depleting my attention. There's an enormous amount of research on multitasking. And actually, some research says it lowers your IQ. So there's substantial research in the effect of incessant information consumption on the brain, on the ability to focus, and on, you know, sustaining relationships, and the list goes on and on. So what are we to do? Because, you know, those people who check their phone as the first thing they do in the morning and the last thing they do at night, they're not going to stop doing that

Starting point is 00:32:59 because you tell them to. I mean... Maybe they will, maybe they won't. The question is, are they doing that consciously and willfully? Or are they doing it habitually? There's a book called Addicted by Design, and it's that apps are designed to be addictive. So there's qualities in information consumption that are quite addictive. So I think are people waking up saying, okay, I want to check my phone. This is what I want to do. Do I want to spend an extra half hour on Instagram? So these things are not necessarily willful, mindful, conscious decisions. They're instinctive.

Starting point is 00:33:33 And in that regard, what I'm trying to, and many people are for this matter, making an issue of how much time do we actually spend consuming information versus choosing to spend time consuming information? And that spend time consuming information. And that's the distinction. It's like, in this sense, it's like eating. I'm not against eating. I think it's wonderful. But I need to eat healthy. I eat at a scheduled time and I eat stuff that's good for me versus just consuming to consume. Okay. So I get the problem, but what's the solution? I mean, in a practical sense, what are you supposed to do? So I have a rule. One of the practical things that I do is I call it the seven to seven rule. So generally speaking, I make

Starting point is 00:34:11 a decision not to check my digital device, not until 7am in the morning and that after 7pm. Do I break it? Yeah, I break it. But it's like a store. Stores open at nine, they close at five, you know, the store hours. What am I proposing is some level of moderation and what I call noise is the source of all this distraction. So the way I look at it is either I'm managing it or it's managing me. Does the smartphone work for me or do I work for it? And I think some people feel like, well, when it calls, I answer. And I think that there's a better way of looking at it, which is set store hours, set limits. There's some practical things that people can do to manage the noise level. You can't get rid of it, but you lower it. But here's the thing. As long

Starting point is 00:34:54 as your phone or your computer or whatever it is, as long as it's set so that some message comes in, some notification comes in, it makes a noise, you're going to pay attention to it. I mean, you know, back before cell phones, when people just had home phones, when the phone rang, everything stopped to answer the phone. Especially, you know, if it rang in the middle of the night, well, boy, you made sure to answer the phone. There's something about the noise, the immediacy of a device making noise that makes everybody stop what they're doing and run to it. When I grew up, when the phone rang at dinnertime, we didn't answer it. We had answering machines and I call it the illusion of immediacy, that everything has to be now. It's like, well, no, things can wait. So if a person calls you, well, if I called them back in 10 minutes. So one of the things that I say is very powerful is say no, but no doesn't mean never. No means not now. So if the phone rings in dinner, I'm not going to answer right now. Well, what if it's an emergency? If it's an emergency, I'll call back. People think that everything is at the sense of like somebody's going to die and it's really, really dire. It's really not that at all. Most of the information we consume that we think is urgent is an alert from my bank saying that there's a new APR on my mortgage that I don't

Starting point is 00:36:19 care about. I'm talking about that realm. Most information is consumed as sort of useless in that regard. It's not life-threatening. And people treat it like it is only to find out that it isn't. But they spend all this buildup to answer the phone during dinner. And it's like, I remember, I have a teenage son, and I remember when he was younger and he got his phone, he'd get in the car and I'd be driving and he'd get on his phone and I'd say, no, no, no, no, we don't, we don't, no, no, and I didn't want to battle. So now he gets in the car and he puts his headphones on and he listens to his phone and I expect it and I don't like it, but it just wasn't worth the fight. Yeah. I mean, so there's, I mean, as a parent, I share that sentiment with you, where it's like, it's not worth the fight. And I, and I, I understand. And I agree with that. It's, it's the, one of the conversations that I have with my daughter who's in high school is, you know, what do you love about social media and what do you hate about it? And one of the things that she'd said to me is one of the things that she hates about it is that she always feels like she's at school because she's constantly connected to

Starting point is 00:37:38 school. So when we were, when I was in high school and college, I could leave school and go home. They can't anymore. They're always at school. They're always under the microscope. They're always in the public eye. They always have to look good. They always have to be connected. And that's exhausting for them. And they recognize, not even kids recognize it. It's exhausting to be on social media 24-7 because you're afraid of missing something and being left out by people. So there are things that they love about it and there's things they hate about it. You've mentioned a couple of things throughout our conversation here of things you do and things people can do to help disconnect from technology some of the time. And let's talk about some more of those specifics, because I think when you tell people in kind of vague terms about how they need to disconnect, well, like by doing what? It seems so hard to do.

Starting point is 00:38:27 So specifically what? One of the ones that I practice is I call it's like the first and last thought of the day. So when I wake up, I don't grab my phone. It's like that's my first victory of the day is to sort of consume information, whatever that information might be. What I do is I wake up and I have a thought and I have quiet. So I have a cup of coffee. It's my routine. And I schedule. There's no technology. It's just 15 minutes of just quiet and I prepare my day. And I feel a victory in that moment. I have a very intentional thought when I wake up. I grab a cup of coffee and I have quiet. I don't feel like I'm enslaved to information consumption. I do that at the end of the day. So I have a way of starting the day and

Starting point is 00:39:10 ending the day. I've been doing this for a few years now while writing the book Noise and also after the book came out. It kind of sets my day on the right track. That's one thing that I do. The other thing I mentioned earlier is setting tech timeouts or time for technology. For example, email. In working with people in the military and special operations, I ask them, this is really remarkable, how much time does a special operator spend in email? Between a third and a half of their day. Well, they feel like they have to, but I'm like, could you schedule time? I check it in the morning, middle of the day, and the afternoon. Many, if not most of them say, yes, they feel like they have to, but I'm like, could you schedule time? Like I check it in the morning, middle of the day, in the afternoon. And many, if not most of them say, yes, they could. They just don't. So that's just like scheduling when you're on and when you're off. That's another thing. At work is giving some indicator to the people around you that you need

Starting point is 00:40:00 quiet. Because a lot of people work in open, now with covet it's a bit different but when people are you know go back to work in these open environments it's like the open collaboration open floor space it's like putting up like a do not disturb or quiet sign or maybe wearing a pair of headphones in the office that i work in people wear headphones even though they're not listening to music as a sign to like i'm focusing and concentrating right now. I can't be interrupted or distracted. That's another mechanism. A simple one, very, very powerful is just, I mentioned earlier, is to say no, but not never, just not now. I'm doing hard work. I'm focusing on something. Let's say I'm reading something and then then checking, you know, my phone or doing something online might be easier and more interesting and entertaining, I'm going to delay

Starting point is 00:40:49 that. I heard a piece of advice some time ago that I've always tried to do, or at least keep in mind that, you know, when people text you or email you and you text them right back, you're training them that you're always available and to expect an answer right back. So I don't answer right back. And I mean, unless it's a real emergency, I sometimes deliberately don't answer right away because I don't want people to think I'm that available, even though sometimes I am that available. That is great advice. Just think about like for the people listening right now to do that, you're telling a person, I call this the illusion of immediacy, that it's an illusion, that you're always available.

Starting point is 00:41:34 You're not always available. So giving people that response that you're always available, you're not going to hurt their feelings by responding in a half hour. So you're going to do two benefits. You're going to benefit them that the world is not always available. And you're going to benefit yourself that you have mastery of that moment that you should be doing something else. But like when the text message come doesn't mean that's when I respond. So that's a great bit of advice that if imagine if a person just did that three times a day, that makes you feel more, more centered, more focused, less overwhelmed.

Starting point is 00:42:06 Like the next test match is going to send me into a, no, I'm not going to answer right now. It's things like that that give people a sense of hope. Like I can live with pervasive technology and have it not be overwhelming to me. They call this to like infobesity. It's like I'm just overwhelmed with this. And I think some of those things can be very encouraging for people. Well, and two, when that, when people will text and say, and then later say, well, I, I texted you 20 minutes ago.

Starting point is 00:42:37 And I think, yeah, it was only 20 minutes ago. I mean, so like, they're trying to make me feel bad. And so I've just taken the stand that I'm, I'm not going to feel bad. It's 20 minutes. What you asked wasn't that important. And I'll get, I'll get back to you. Don't worry. It's okay. The, the, you're absolutely spot on the, I think in that regard, we need to be all need to be more unapologetic. Our attention is precious, our time is precious, and we don't need to respond right away. So don't, but don't apologize for it. It's okay. A person can wait 20 minutes. Nothing bad is going to happen. Nothing bad is going to happen. If it really, really, in fact, is an emergency, you'll know. There's a funny story

Starting point is 00:43:23 that happened to me a number of years ago. I was on a family vacation in Mexico. And this was before all hotels and condos had internet connections. So when we'd go on vacation, I'd have a smartphone, but it didn't really work. And the hotel didn't have internet connections and the condo was staying at. So we were there for seven days and I had literally no connection to the Western world. And I remember thinking my only connection to the world of something really, really bad happened, like a natural disaster in Europe or some crazy thing was the cleaning lady. I'm like, my tether to the world right now is the cleaning lady who cleans the condo every morning. Like if she tells me something bad happened, that was the only way I would know. And guess what happened?

Starting point is 00:44:11 Nothing bad happened. I went back and I looked at the news for the week. And if we look back in the hindsight of like all the news that's produced in a week that we think is critical, I went back and I looked at it all. None of it was earth shattering. None of it. Very, very little of it. So I've changed my media consumption habits quite about COVID. For me, I was like noise, being sufficiently informed is better than being well-informed. That was my big takeaway is like, don't consume it 24 seven because it's not going to help me. I can't hear the same story told 27

Starting point is 00:44:43 times. I got it. I know what the CDC is saying. I understand. I know what I need to do. I'm good. Listening to it 25 more times isn't going to make my life better. So it's things like that that can make us feel like, oh, I can actually breathe again. I can focus on what's really important, like a conversation I'm having with this person, like you and I are having right now. I mean, I'm not talking to 10 people. It's you and I are talking and, and this is great. And that's what I'm really, I want people to feel encouraged. Like this is, yes, this is the way the life seems to be, but it can be a, it could be a different way, slightly different way and much better. You know what happens? I think everybody has their version of this story, but one day you leave your phone at home. You forget it. You don't have it. You go to the store and your wife texts you,

Starting point is 00:45:32 oh, don't forget to get some broccoli, but you don't have your phone, so you don't get the broccoli. Now you have to go back to the store and get the broccoli and you say to yourself, see, I've always got to have my phone with me and I've always got to have it on. Otherwise it's going to cost me. I think that at the end of the day, maybe it was, that wasn't the, if that's the worst thing that happened, we live in this, it's, it's a bit of a fantasy that that is like, that's bad. At the end of the day, you know, we used to take trips and I used a map and we didn't have a phone.

Starting point is 00:46:08 You have to, you know, it's all these different things. So I think now it's like, it's okay. I mean, do this as a test to see how tethered we are to technology. Go to the gas station, fill up my car with gas, come back home and I'm going to leave my phone. I mean, I drove from Chicago to New York without a phone when I was 18 years old. My parents left me and nothing bad happened. Well, I think it's a conversation that everybody needs to hear and have and think about because

Starting point is 00:46:37 at some point you got to wonder, is this really good to be connected all the time? Joseph McCormick has been my guest. The name of his book is Noise, Living and Leading When Nobody Can Focus. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks for being here, Joseph. Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it. Every town and city has its own rules regarding recycling.

Starting point is 00:47:04 Most often it's recommended that you rinse out jars and cans before you set them outside for the recycling truck. But you could spend a long time getting the last of the peanut butter out of the jar. So is it really necessary? Well, actually most recycling centers can handle a bit of stuck-on food in jars and cans. The real reason for rinsing out recyclables is more to cut down on the smell and not to attract ants and rodents either at your house or at the recycling center. So as a courtesy, it's a nice thing to do,

Starting point is 00:47:40 but you don't need to spend hours getting that last drop of honey out of the jar. Now what about pizza boxes? Do you recycle those? Well, if the pizza box is covered in grease, and they very often are, then it's not recyclable. You should just throw it in the trash. If, however, the box is clean and maybe only has a speck or two of grease, then it's okay to recycle.

Starting point is 00:48:05 And that is something you should know. Please leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, CastBox, Spotify, wherever you listen to this podcast. It really helps us out, and I like to read them. And I can't read them if you don't post them. So please post a review. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep

Starting point is 00:48:31 and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very

Starting point is 00:49:05 own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Rob Benedict. And I am Richard Spate. We were both on a little show you might know called Supernatural. It had a pretty good run, 15 seasons, 327 episodes. And though we have seen, of course, every episode many times, we figured, hey, now that we're wrapped, let's watch it all again. And we can't do that alone.

Starting point is 00:49:42 So we're inviting the cast and crew that made the show along for the ride. We've got writers, producers, composers, directors, and we'll of course have some actors on as well, including some certain guys that played some certain pretty iconic brothers. It was kind of a little bit of a left field choice in the best way possible. The note from Kripke was, he's great, we love him, but we're looking for like a really intelligent Duchovny type. With 15 seasons to explore, it's going to be the road trip of several lifetimes.

Starting point is 00:50:13 So please join us and subscribe to Supernatural then and now.

Something You Should Know - The Fascinating Science of Joy & Surprising Ways Technology Distracts You From Life

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