Something You Should Know - The History and Future of Human Transportation & How to Speak Your Mind

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Starting point is 00:00:42 getting people from point A to point B in a speedy fashion. In fact, people were worried about the effects of speed. They thought, you know, will our brains stop working? And so there are these experiments that are done in the 1830s where, you know, they put passengers on trains and they make them do things like crossword puzzles to see if their brains still work properly at the unheard of speed of 35 miles per hour. Also, what does a burglar look like? Would you know one if you saw one? And getting the courage to speak up, say your piece, and be heard.

Starting point is 00:01:13 It's important. Think of all the opportunities that are lost, all the great ideas that never are said and never worked on and never come to fruition because somebody is reluctant to speak up. All this today on Something You Should Know. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives,

Starting point is 00:01:43 and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person

Starting point is 00:02:26 Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome to Something You Should Know. Have you heard of the pink tax? It's where women pay more than men for what appears to be the same product. In a survey of drugstore products like shampoo, shaving cream, razor blades, and deodorant, many products seemed identical, but they had very different prices.

Starting point is 00:03:10 And the only difference was that one product was for women and the other was for men. And almost always, the women's products were more expensive, sometimes a lot more expensive. But it's not just personal care items. A few years ago, the New York City Department of Consumer Affairs analyzed almost 800 items in 35 product categories. And they found that the items for female consumers cost more than the products for men in 30 of those 35 categories. For example, in the category of toys and accessories, the same toys for girls were 7% more than the same toys for boys. In children's clothing, girls' clothes were 4% more than boys'. In adult clothing, women's clothes were overall 8% more than men's.

Starting point is 00:04:04 And in that category of personal care items, women's products were 13% more than men's for the same product. Compare for yourself the next time you're at the store, and if you're a woman, you may find yourself buying men's razors and shaving cream and deodorant to avoid the pink tax. And that is something you should know. There's a pretty good chance when you got up this morning, part of your plan was to go somewhere else. Because that's what humans do. We like to move. Sometimes we have to move to go to work or

Starting point is 00:04:41 go to the store or we go out for fun or go on vacation. We move around a lot. It wasn't always that way. I mean, if it weren't for the wheel, you wouldn't go many places. And we've come a long way since the invention of the wheel. And so how will we get to places in the future? The evolution of personal transportation is really interesting and something Tom Standage has studied. Tom is deputy editor of The Economist. He's author of six

Starting point is 00:05:13 previous books and his latest is called A Brief History of Motion, From the Wheel to the Car to What Comes Next. Hey Tom, welcome. It's great to be here. So this topic of transportation, it's really one of those topics that dominates our lives, and yet we don't think about it too much. We want to go somewhere, we just hop in a car, get on a bike, go on a train, and off we go. It's just part of our lives. We don't really think much about how we got here. So why do you think it's important that we understand this now? What I was particularly struck by reading about the history of transport and the history of cars, and I've always been really into cars, was the familiarity and the similarity of the 1890s to the situation that we have today.

Starting point is 00:06:03 So essentially in the 1890s, in the big, fast expanding cities of the Western world, places like London and New York, it was becoming apparent that the dominant means of urban transport, which was based around horses, was becoming unsustainable and that things had to change. But no one was quite sure what would come next. And I think we're in a similar position today. We've recognized that cars are not sustainable environmentally, and we've given half of the area of most cities over to roads and parking and space for cars. And there's a growing recognition that we can't go on this way. So we've got to do something different, but it's not quite clear what. So I would imagine that as you look at the timeline of transportation,

Starting point is 00:06:46 the point at which the wheel shows up has to be like the big thing. Because without the wheel, not much is going to change. So is that the case? Well, we think of the wheel as a sort of, you know, the greatest invention in history, it's quite often called, because we are surrounded by wheeled vehicles. We use them of one kind or another probably every day. And whether it's a train or a bike or a car, we're used to a world of wheels. And this is actually quite recent. Although the wheel was invented more than 5,000 years ago, it was invented about 35, 3600 BCE, most people didn't get to go on wheeled vehicles. They were very, very big, they were very expensive, and they weren't personal transport devices. The first ones were probably built to move ore, copper ore, around in copper mines. So it looks as though

Starting point is 00:07:37 the first wheels arose in Eastern Europe in a region called the Carpathian Mountains. And the idea of the wheel does spread quite quickly. It spreads to Mesopotamia. So what's modern day Iraq. But even in Mesopotamia, it was just sort of the kings who would go on these wheeled vehicles that were sort of, you know, for ceremonial purposes. They might use them as observation platforms in battle. But wheeled vehicles in those days, they had these big, big, thick, heavy wheels. You couldn't steer them. They were very slow moving. And so it wasn't something that most people would ever use as a means of transport. Most people would still have to walk. And in fact, most people have walked for most of history. And it's only very, very recently that wheeled

Starting point is 00:08:20 vehicles have proliferated. And we've come to the idea that wheels are an obvious thing in retrospect. But that hasn't always been the case. And my favorite example of this is the Egyptians. The Egyptians managed to build the pyramids entirely without using wheels. And it's only when the people to the north of them, the Hittites, invent the war chariot and start conquering big chunks of the Middle East that the Egyptians suddenly wake up and go, okay, we've got to find out about wheels. It surprises me when the wheel showed up, light bulbs didn't go off everywhere. Like, hey, my God, this is fabulous. But it didn't.

Starting point is 00:08:58 It didn't catch on for the longest time. And I guess partly because of the way wheels were made. But you would think that somebody would have gone, hey, wait a minute. Well, it was very complicated to make the first wheels of the first vehicles. I mean, you needed to basically chop up pieces of wood. And in these days, people didn't have tools because you had to make tools out of metal, and they were only just figuring out how to make stuff out of metal. If you remember the opening sequence of the Flintstones, the wheels in the Flintstones, and the idea that a lot of people have about the origin of the wheels is that someone sawed a slice

Starting point is 00:09:31 off a log and that would give you a wheel, right? Only the problem is the saw isn't invented until about 2000 years after the wheel, because it's much harder to make a saw. So early wheels were not made by chopping slices off logs. They were made by splitting logs and sticking them together in planks. And this is all complicated stuff. And then building a whole vehicle around them, this is something that would take people a long time. So yeah, when people saw wheels, they'd go, wow, that's really awesome. But they weren't in a position to make their own wheels or have their own wheels. Well, in addition to the wheel being a game changer in terms of transportation, I would imagine the horse

Starting point is 00:10:05 has got to be up there pretty close to the top of the list as well. Again, the horse kind of shows up a bit later than you might think. So the first wheeled vehicles that are pulled by animals are pulled by oxen. And the Mesopotamian vehicles that we see are pulled by these, they're called onagas.'re sort of like, a bit like donkeys, but they're smaller. And then the war chariot is, you know, they start to pull those using horses. And that means that they can suddenly go a lot faster. And so war chariots are interesting. They've got two wheels, so you can steer them easily because you just steer the horse, basically. You don't have this problem with a four-wheeled vehicle where you have to be able

Starting point is 00:10:43 to turn some of the wheels sideways. And war chariots also had spoked wheels, so they were much, much lighter. But that also meant they were really complicated to make. And if you look in Tutankhamun's tomb, he was buried with a chariot, very, very lightweight, 35 kilograms, big spoked wheels. It's like the Ferrari of its day. I mean, it would have required skilled artisans a very long time to build that vehicle. It would have been incredibly expensive. And this is why war chariots became associated with people of high status, this idea that you are what you drive. The faster your vehicle, the more high status that you are. But then the war chariot fell out of favor because horses were bred to be large

Starting point is 00:11:19 enough that they could carry warriors. And obviously, you can take a horse places you can't take a chariot. And so then the war chariot kind of became obsolete and people switched to having cavalry. And the wheel sort of, you know, fell from favor again. It's sort of a bumpy ride. One minute, people are really into wheels and the next minute they're not. And for the most part, even when people are into them, most people can't afford to use them. And so what was the next big innovation that moved personal transportation forward? What was the next big thing? Well, weirdly, it's actually gunpowder weapons, because gunpowder weapons,

Starting point is 00:11:53 so guns and cannons and things like that, meant that knights on horseback suddenly looked really out of date and old-fashioned and obsolete. And at that point, the idea that men shouldn't be going on wheeled vehicles gets overturned, because in particular, you can mount cannons. So this is what some countries started to do. You mount cannons on wheeled vehicles, and then you can shoot at knights. So suddenly, the knights look old-fashioned, and you want to be the guy on the wheeled vehicle with the cannon. And this coincides with the rise of a new vehicle called the coach, which is basically a fast carriage, a four-wheeled carriage. So it's fast open wheeled vehicle and this originates in eastern europe and um it spreads

Starting point is 00:12:31 all over europe and the idea that if you're a man it's no longer cool to be riding around on a horse it's now cool to be riding in a in a coach with you know pulled by two or four horses as fast as you can and again speed is you know it's a way of four horses as fast as you can. And again, speed is, you know, it's a way of showing off. It's a way of demonstrating your status and your wealth and so on. So this idea that you are what you drive. So suddenly wheels are cool again, and they've been cool ever since. When I think about the 1800s, I think of stagecoaches and railroads, steam engines, then that was how people would get around. Yeah, stagecoaches were surprisingly slow. I mean, they didn't go much faster than walking.

Starting point is 00:13:11 It was about four or five miles an hour. So it's about the same as walking. And the main thing was you didn't get rained on and you could take luggage. But yeah, trains are completely different because they go so much faster. In fact, people were worried about the effects of speed. They thought, will our brains stop working? And so, there were these experiments that are done in the 1830s where they put passengers on trains and they make them do things like crossword puzzles to see if their brains still work properly at the unheard of speed of 35 miles per hour. It's that kind of thing. But yes, it is incredible because when you have a rail link between two cities, in effect, you've moved those cities so that they're very close together.

Starting point is 00:13:46 And they're closer to each other than they are to other cities that may be geographically closer, but don't have rail links. And so you start to get all sorts of economic effects. You get cities like Chicago, where the economy is able to go in new directions because it's got these railroad links to other places. So that really is a game changer. And it's the first time that people can travel faster than you can on a galloping horse. And then what happened? Is that pretty much it until the car? Or were there other things that were innovations that maybe we don't know about? Well, the other one that, you know, it seems obvious in retrospect, but the other big innovation of the first half of the 1800s

Starting point is 00:14:26 is the bicycle. The first bicycles are made about 1815, 1816. And they are like kids' bikes, balance bikes. They don't have pedals. They're made of wood. And you kind of sit on it. And then you kind of push it along using your legs. And that idea doesn't really catch on.

Starting point is 00:14:46 But gradually, people refine it. They make the wheels out of metal. They add pedals. They add brakes. They start off with the penny farthing, the huge front wheel and the tiny back wheel. And then they realize if you make the two wheels the same size and use a chain, then actually that's much more efficient. By the 1880s, we get to what looks like a modern bicycle. And these are also revolutionary because they're a personal transport device, rather like a horse, but much, much cheaper. You don't have to feed it. You don't have to look after it. And this means that the ability to have a vehicle, you can visit the next town. You've got the freedom to travel when you want, but you don't have to be rich enough to own

Starting point is 00:15:18 a horse. That's suddenly available to a much larger number of people. And so if you look at the 1880s, 1890s, the sort of golden age of the bicycle, there's this bicycle mania, and it is hailed as a great sort of leveler of, you know, social inequality, women can travel more easily, and so on. And so that is also very, very radical shift in transport in its own way. Except when it rains or snows. Well, quite. So this is when people start asking themselves, is there a way we could have something that could go on existing roads like a horse or a horse and a coach, a horse-drawn carriage, that could go as fast as a train and have a roof like you do on a train carriage, but could also be as personal as a bicycle. Of course, that is what the automobile promises. And so when people start to use these new internal combustion engines that have just been invented and fit them either onto existing carriages

Starting point is 00:16:13 or build new vehicles around them, suddenly people look at them and go, wow, that, now that is cool, because it's combining the best of all of these previous modes of transport. Which is what I want to talk about next, because the car is such a game changer, and this is where we are in this history of motion, and I want to talk more about that in a moment. Tom Standage is my guest. The name of his book is A Brief History of Motion, From the Wheel to the car to what comes next. Contained herein are the heresies of Redolph Buntwine,

Starting point is 00:16:54 erstwhile monk turned traveling medical investigator. Join me as I study the secrets of the divine plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth that ours is not a loving God and we are not its favored children. The heresies of Redolf Bantwine, wherever podcasts are available. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger

Starting point is 00:17:25 Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes.

Starting point is 00:18:03 Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, Tom, before we talk about the car, as you say, the bicycle was a big deal, and we maybe tend not to think of it as a big deal, because by today's standards, a bicycle is more of a kid's mode of transportation,

Starting point is 00:18:38 you know, almost a toy in many ways. I mean, a lot of people, grown-ups, ride bicycles, I get that. But at the time, when they first came out and people really started riding them, it wasn't just a kid's toy or means of transportation. Everybody was using them. People would join bike clubs to meet members of the opposite sex. And so it really was a game changer socially. But it also literally paved the way for the car because cyclists campaigned for better roads, smoother roads, paved roads. They also campaigned for the right to take this newfangled vehicle into places that previously had been reserved for horse-drawn carriages. So places like Central Park, were you allowed to take a new vehicle into Central Park? Well, eventually they won the right to do that too. And what that meant was by the time the automobile was invented, that there were smooth roads starting to appear. And it was also the precedent set that you could take a new vehicle into these places that were

Starting point is 00:19:40 previously reserved for horse-drawn traffic. And so in that sense, the bike really did prepare the way for the car. And also, if you look at the first car made by Carl Benz, the motor wagon in 1886, it looks much more like a bicycle than anything else. It's basically a tricycle. It's got enormous great spoked wheels. He basically built it out of bike parts around an internal combustion engine. So the bike is in many ways the father of the car. I never would think that. You would think that that was just a whole different set of thinking

Starting point is 00:20:11 to come up with the car. But when you explain it that way, it makes perfect sense that here's this kind of cool thing people are pedaling around. Let's put a motor on it and make it more sophisticated. That's pretty cool. Exactly. And in fact, an internal combustion engine is put on a bicycle before. So the year before Benz builds the motor bargain, someone else has attached a small internal combustion engine to a bicycle. So actually the motorbike comes before the car, and it is the intermediate step between the bicycle and the car.

Starting point is 00:20:42 So yes, that's all exactly the way it was. Also, these first cars, we call them cars. The word car, that's all exactly the way it was. Also, these first cars, I mean, we call them cars. The word car doesn't become popular until the 20th century, but these first cars didn't have roofs. They didn't have windows. They were outdoor. You had to dress up to go in them. And the idea of having things like windows that close and locking doors, that all comes much later. So yeah, I mean, they are much more like bicycles in that sense. You are really exposed to the elements. You know, what's interesting is that as the time progresses and the new innovations come, the old ones kind of fall away.

Starting point is 00:21:14 I mean, we still have horses, but people don't ride them to work too much anymore. I mean, it's more of a recreational thing, I think. But from the bicycle, the motorbikebike and the car, people still use all of them. Well, this is because horses are expensive, right? I mean, they're really, really expensive. And it's a rich person's hobby to ride horses now. But it was a rich person's, you know, privilege to have horses and you have to have stables. And then, of course, they were producing all this horse manure, which takes me back to where I started because that was a real, real problem. And one of the reasons that people were so enthusiastic about cars is that they promised to get rid of this problem of horse manure that

Starting point is 00:21:53 was literally piling up in cities. It had to be swept up from the streets every day. They tried selling it to farmers, but eventually there was so much of it, no one wanted to buy it. And so you have this big problem and the car seems to solve all the problems, right? It's going to get rid of the pollution. It's going to get rid of the traffic because a car takes up, as a horseless carriage, as it's first called, takes up half the amount of space as a horse and a carriage because you've only got one of them. So the idea was that was going to fix all the traffic problems. And Thomas Edison makes this prediction right at the beginning of the 20th century that downtown New York, Manhattan, is going to look like a ghost town because the automobile is going to reduce traffic so much. And then it's also going to be

Starting point is 00:22:29 much quieter because you're not going to get the steel ribbed wheels going across the cobblestones. Automobiles have rubber tires, so they're much quieter. And they're also going to be safer. There's going to be no more accidents because a horse can be scared by a loud noise, but an engine can't be scared. And so road deaths were going to plummet as well. And of course, all of these things turned out to be wrong. So tell the story about traffic lights, how red came to mean stop and green came to mean go. How did that all come about? Well, red originally made stop because a lighthouse was being built on the English coast and it was near to another lighthouse. And the problem was that sea captains were going to get the two lighthouses

Starting point is 00:23:08 muddled up. So this second one had to have a new colour. So Stevenson, the engineer who was building it, did a whole load of experiments to see which colour you could get light... If you put coloured glass in front of a light, which colour reduced the brightness of the lighthouse to the least and the lighthouse the least, and the light would travel the furthest. We now know that it's red because red has the longest wavelength. So that's why red is the answer. But he came up with red. And so red became associated with the warning for that lighthouse, and then ships started carrying red lights on one side and white lights on the other side as warning lights at sea. That way, if you saw another ship approaching, you would pass on the side of the white light, not the red

Starting point is 00:23:50 light. White comes to be associated with go and red with stop. This is adopted by railway companies in the 19th century, starting in England. They use green to mean caution. But there's a problem with this. When red means stop and green means caution and white means go, if you see another light and you're on a train and you're driving the train, you see a white light in the distance that's actually not a railway signal at all. It's just someone's house or something like that. You may misinterpret it as a go light. And if you see a red light or a green light where the glass filter in front of it has fallen off, it becomes a white light. In other words, it means go when it should mean stop or caution.

Starting point is 00:24:30 This led to rail accidents because if the filter falls off, people are going to misread the signal. So right around 1900, the colours are swapped and green is used to mean go and white is used to mean caution. That way, if a filter falls off either of the red or the green lights, it defaults to caution rather than defaulting to go, which is much safer. And so those colors are then adopted when street lights, electric, sorry, when electric traffic signals are introduced, those colors are then introduced. So now we have the car. We've had the car for a long time. It has gotten better and better. But so what's next? Is there going to be another big thing? Are we going to have

Starting point is 00:25:12 flying cars? What's the next big thing? I think we are at an inflection point. If you look at what's happened in the last 15 years, there's been enormous innovation. We've had things like ride hailing, so Uber and Lyft and DD, the equivalent in China. We've also had things like these bike rental schemes that you have in many cities now where you have docks and also dockless bike rental schemes and then the e-scooters and so on and so on and so on. The thing that's really changed all of this and changed the outlook, I think, for transport is the smartphone. The smartphone itself, obviously, is not the sort of outlook, I think, for transport is the smartphone. The smartphone itself, obviously, is not a means of transport. I can't climb onto my smartphone and fly around. But in effect, I can because it makes public transport in my city much more usable.

Starting point is 00:25:56 I can look up when the next bus or the next train is going to come. I can see the quickest way to get across town by using a variety of means of transport. I can hail a car using an app, a ride hailing app. I can unlock a bicycle or a scooter using it. So you can basically, in a way that's never been possible before, combine all of these other kinds of transport to make something that is, in many ways, preferable to owning a car in a busy city.

Starting point is 00:26:20 And the general trend is that car ownership is becoming more and more expensive and more and more inconvenient. Young people are less likely to learn to drive. And at the same time, the alternatives to car ownership are becoming easier to use and more convenient because the smartphone stitches them all together. So I call this the internet of motion. And it's essentially this combination, like the internet's a network of networks, this is a combination of different transport networks tied together by the phone. So that's sort of what I think is coming next. And over time, owning a car is going to make less sense for a growing number of people who live in cities.

Starting point is 00:26:53 And I think the overall number of cars that people own is going to go down. And what's your sense about the self-driving car? Well, I think the self-driving car and the flying car could fit into my internet of motion quite easily if we can get them to work and if they're safe. I've been in self-driving cars. I've been following the field very closely. The problem is you can make a self-driving car that can cope in traffic with other people, with other vehicles, and it can manage 95%, 97% of the time. It's that last five, that last 3% that's really, really difficult because drivers have to deal with very unpredictable environments.

Starting point is 00:27:33 And so this is why the self-driving cars are tested in very predictable environments like Phoenix, Arizona, where you've got a grid system where it never snows, where there aren't any cyclists on the road to speak of, etc., etc. So that's the real challenge, getting to the point where you really can put these things on the road without endangering other people. Well, the story of motion, this history that you tell is so interesting, makes you really want to hear what's in the next chapters to come. Tom Standage has been my guest. He's deputy editor of The Economist, and he is author

Starting point is 00:28:06 of the book, A Brief History of Motion, From the Wheel to the Car to What Comes Next. And there's a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Thank you, Tom. Thanks, Mike. It's been great fun. Hey, everyone. Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong?, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong?

Starting point is 00:28:43 And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney.

Starting point is 00:29:13 There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. How many times have you been in a situation where you thought about saying something to someone, or you wanted to say something, or you felt you really should speak up and say something, but you didn't. Then maybe later, you wish you had.

Starting point is 00:29:51 There are times when you really should speak up. So how do you do it, courageously and purposefully, rather than sit back and say, eh, what's the point? That's what Mary Nestor is here to talk about. Mary is a communications expert, an award-winning speaker, business consultant, and author of the book, Say It Now, Say It Right, How to Handle Tough and Tender Conversations. Hi, Mary. Hi, Mike. Thanks so much for having me.

Starting point is 00:30:19 So I've been in that situation. I think everybody's been in that situation where you think you should probably say something, but you think, yeah, but what's the point? It's not worth it. It's just going to cause trouble. So you don't. And I imagine sometimes it isn't worth it. It probably will just cause trouble. So how do you know when you should speak up and when you shouldn't speak up? Excellent, excellent questions. It's true. There are some times when you shouldn't speak up? Excellent, excellent questions. It's true. There are some times when you don't have to say something. And that's the times when you can be silent. But in many cases, people are not even aware of some of the things they're doing. And I'll give you an example. I gave a presentation early on in my career. And it was very well received. And

Starting point is 00:31:04 afterwards, I went into the ladies room and just to freshen up, and I noticed that I had a big piece of broccoli stuck in my front tooth. And I went back to my assistant. And I said, Oh, my gosh, I'm so embarrassed that I had this in my tooth. She said, Oh, I know it. And I said to her, you knew it. And you didn't tell me. And she said, Oh, I was so embarrassed. I didn't want to say anything that was negative to you. Now, the time for her to say it now was before I gave my presentation. And so many people are not aware of the fact that they have broccoli in their teeth.

Starting point is 00:31:42 They're doing something or they're coming across in a way that they're not even aware of themselves and you don't tell them. That's really not being very nice. Think about this. If there's something that is going on, say in an office, you've got one person who always interrupts everybody or is very hard to work with. Well, everybody else knows that, but that person may not know it at all. Who are you hurting? You're hurting the person that you're not telling because if they were aware of it, then they could do something about it. Yeah, but I've been in situations where there are people who if they had broccoli in their teeth, I would have no trouble telling them, hey, you've got broccoli in your teeth. You might want to move that. And that's probably most people.

Starting point is 00:32:30 But there's always those people who, I don't know, they're a little volatile. You don't know what kind of response you're going to get. And I figure, well, then what's the point? You know, I don't feel safe in their response. So I just don't say anything. And you're right. You can't predict the responses you're going to get because there's a lot of different responses.

Starting point is 00:32:53 They could say, oh, this is great. Thank you so much. Or they could say, who do you think you are? And that is something that you can't control. The person who is really going to benefit in that kind of a situation is you. Because think about it. If you have a situation with a person, a relationship problem, or maybe a problem at work, and you let it go, and you let it go, and you let it go, who is it really bothering? The other person may not even be aware of it. But every day, you have to go into that situation and you are in, there's a turmoil,

Starting point is 00:33:27 there is a stress going on. And so what I say is to find your voice and take a risk to speak your truth. This is how I'm feeling. This is the situation as I see it. And this is what I think, you know, I would like you to do, or this is the way we should approach things from now on. And after you have that conversation, you're absolutely right. You can't control what the other person is going to do, but think of how you're going to feel. The stress, you don't have to confront that situation anymore. What about the situation where you've not said anything for a long time, and now you've decided to say something, and there's so much anger and resentment behind it. You've got to

Starting point is 00:34:15 be really careful what you say, because it may all come out in a ton of bricks. Right, absolutely. And you know, say it now doesn't mean say it immediately off the top of your head when you're really angry. What if you're angry, that is not the time to talk to anybody and not to bring up a situation. So let yourself cool down a little bit. And you had to look at it also from your perspective, you know, criticism, nobody likes criticism. And we tried to dress it up and call it constructive criticism or constructive feedback and all those things. But nobody likes to be criticized. But I can come and I can speak from my perspective about something. And the anger builds up, again, because we are reluctant or afraid to approach a situation

Starting point is 00:35:06 or a certain person. So I would say, cool down before you blurt something out and really think about it. Think about how you're going to approach that person and the situation. One of the things that I have found that's very, very helpful when you have a situation like that is to think of something that you can say that's positive first. All right. I had a situation one time when I was and it wasn't an angry situation, but the a friend of mine gave a presentation and I listened to it and it was wonderful, brilliant. But she kept speaking very, very soft. And she said a lot of ahs and ums.

Starting point is 00:35:47 And after the presentation, I thought, well, you know, she's going to give it tomorrow to a big group of donors. And I had some, I have a suggestion. So what I did is I went up to her and I said, you know, I really enjoyed your, your presentation. There's so much content. It's just so this information is so important. I observed something while I was listening to you and I would like to share it with you. Would you mind if I did that? So I, what the technique is to give the person the opportunity to give permission for you to speak. And I have to say that if I've used that technique before, I've never heard the word no. She said, sure, and so I went on and explained what I saw, and again, I said, you know, it was a great presentation. I said, I had trouble hearing you in some places when you spoke very softly.

Starting point is 00:36:38 How about trying to speak loudly and do that in a consistent manner. And she said, great, thank you so much. So that's one way of approaching someone who you think might be angry, because once they've given you permission to speak, then you have the floor. Well, but something that you did that I think is really important is you said, can I tell you what I observed rather than say, can I tell you what I think you should do? Absolutely. That's a big difference because I'm not sure I want to hear what you think I should do, but I might be interested in hearing what you observe. Exactly. Exactly. And that's what, that's what I call speaking your truth. I can always, and you can always speak your truth because this is how,

Starting point is 00:37:34 this is how I see the world. This is how I see the relationship. This is how I see the situation. But when you start using the word you and you're absolutely right, Mike, if you were you, this is what you you, and you're absolutely right, Mike, if you were you, this is what you should do. I could have said, well, you know what you ought to do? You ought to not speak so soft all the time. And I think you ought to speak up. What a different message that is. And yet I think that's the message most people give when they do give feedback is they say this is either in the exact words or the message is, this is what I think you should do.

Starting point is 00:38:07 Yes. Yeah. Since you've been doing this a while and you talk to a lot of people who theoretically, hopefully try your process out, how often does it go off the rails versus how often is it not the disaster people think it's going to be? You know, it depends on the situation. I always applaud anyone who will try it out. Most of the time I have found it has gone very well. I had someone talk to me just recently and she said, you know, I have used the techniques and I am speaking up more with my family.

Starting point is 00:38:48 And it's not that it's a difficult situation. I just feel more comfortable speaking my truth. I feel more comfortable saying what I think and not being quiet because I'm afraid that it's going to go against someone else. I had a situation where a woman had relatives who would come every summer and they would stay for two weeks and they expected her to do everything, feed them, drive them everywhere. And it just wore her out. So she had a conversation with them and she didn't say, don't come. She just said, it's a long time. And I really would love to have you stay. If you can come and please come for, you know, maybe a week or five days or something like that. And we can pack a lot of information in there.

Starting point is 00:39:31 Well, the relative didn't take it very kindly and decided not to come at all. Goes back to controlling the other person's response. And so over time, the relationship has come back, but making that first, maybe at the first time you confront someone, it's not always going to go so well. And one of the reactions that people will have is that they may go back, even though they were maybe angry or upset in the beginning, they go back and they think about it. And then they think about it. And I've had more people tell me that someone will come back maybe a week or a month later and say, you know, you were right. And I appreciate you're telling me

Starting point is 00:40:15 that. Yeah. Well, how can you be wrong when you're just saying, this is what I observed? You can't say that's wrong. I mean, that's what you observe. That's your experience. Exactly. Exactly. So there is no wrong. It's just they just don't like your observation. So when people are afraid of speaking up, what is it you think they're afraid of? Just the reaction?

Starting point is 00:40:44 Oh, so many things. And it depends on the person. They're afraid of looking stupid or looking silly, giving out an idea. Take a staff meeting where it's like, we all want all your ideas. And someone stands up and gives an idea and say, oh, someone else says, oh, we've tried that before. That's not going to work. So you get shot down right away. So why should I speak up if I know that people are going to shoot me down and I'm going to look foolish and nobody's going to think that my idea is very good? Why would I want to risk that? Why would you? So what would you do instead?

Starting point is 00:41:21 What I tell people is that it take the risk. There's three components to this. There's say it now, which is the right timing. And there's say it right, which is the right body language, the right phrasing, the right words. And the other one is the right motive. You've got to stand up and come from a place where you're not trying to put anybody down, you're not trying to make people look stupid, you're not trying to make yourself look so important. You have to come from a place where you really want to share this idea because you think it's valuable and it's important and it could be beneficial. So if I stand there and say that with that kind of a motive, then I don't have to worry about what other people think. And I'll tell you one other situation that I had when I started my consulting business.

Starting point is 00:42:11 I had a great idea for a program. It was called Me, Inc. I thought, wow, that is really great, yourself as a business. And I mulled it over and I wrote it out and I drew pictures about it and everything like that. And then I let it go. And about a month later, I was at a bookstore and I wanted to get a magazine and I saw all the magazines that were on the display. And here was the Time Magazine front cover. And guess what it said? The front cover said, Me, Inc. That was my idea. And here it was on the front of Time magazine. Now, that was a great idea, but I didn't do anything with it. I didn't speak up. Think of all the opportunities that are lost, all the great ideas that never are said and never worked on and never come to fruition because somebody is reluctant to speak up. There are people, though, who just are timid. That's their nature. It's not that they're

Starting point is 00:43:15 afraid or maybe it is, but their whole life they've been timid. It's part of their personality. What do you say to those people who just have never spoken up? This is a big change to consider. You don't have to change your personality in order to, you know, be more forceful. You can speak very softly and very quietly and very, you know, at very opportune times, and maybe not very often. But, you know, someone who doesn't speak up much or is very quiet or is very thoughtful, when they do finally speak up, it makes a huge impression. Think about that. There are some people that they will speak up all the time. They don't have any problem with that.

Starting point is 00:44:02 Those are some of the people that hog the meetings. Yeah, I'm pretty sick of those guys. Yeah, we're sick of those people. But think about this. When you've got a group of people and you know this one person on your team hardly ever says boo anytime. And all of a sudden they put their hand up and they stand up and have something to say. The whole room is going to be silent. Because once they do stand up, it's got to be really important for that person. They're going to have a huge impact. Yeah, that's a really good point. And what that illustrates, what that kind of says is that maybe you shouldn't speak up all the time just because you have something to say, that if you do that, then people don't take you as seriously as when you're very

Starting point is 00:44:51 selective, and that maybe, maybe there are times not to speak up. Maybe there are times to just let it go because it's not worth it, or that no good will come from it. And I have a story with that. I had a son, when he was a teenager, he had a bad case of acne. And, you know, being the mother, I thought, oh my gosh, you know, he's going to just suffer and go to school and people are going to make fun of him and all that. So I was all worried about it. He was pretty cool about it.

Starting point is 00:45:22 He didn't really bother him that much, but I made an appointment. I dragged him to the dermatologist. So we're in the doctor's office and he's sitting on the exam table. And the doctor asked a question of my son and I chirped up and I answered it. And then the doctor asked him another question and I answered it again. Now, after the third or fourth time, the doctor finally looked, turned around and looked at me and said, Ms. Nestor, I think your son can speak for himself. And wow, now he said it now and said it right to me. Because there are times when you have to stop talking and you have to let people speak for themselves. You know, kids, we're always rushing in to do everything for them

Starting point is 00:46:06 instead of letting them figure things out themselves. And the message you're actually giving when you do that is that I don't think you can handle it. I don't think you're smart enough. I don't think you have what it takes to figure things out. And that can be a huge detriment. So there are times when you need to just stop the helicopter, helicoptering parents, and you can be a helicopter manager too, and being trying to fix everything all the time for everyone else. So there's a time to be silent and let people figure them out for themselves, a huge confidence builder, and let them speak up.

Starting point is 00:46:40 Let them find their own voice so they can speak up. And it just makes sense, particularly in business, in organizations. You want people to speak up. They might have better ideas or they might see a big problem with your idea. And if everybody's afraid to speak, then that could be a big problem. One of the things that we used to do in meetings is to appoint a devil's advocate. This person, their job during the meeting was to really listen and to come up with opposing points of view. Because if you don't, then you don't have anything to bounce

Starting point is 00:47:18 your ideas off of. There's a quote that says, if two of us always agree, one of us is unnecessary. So managers and leaders can do themselves a great favor, and especially going into this new, this post-COVID workplace, is to make it a place where people feel safe to speak up. They're encouraged to speak up. When you've got people that can find their voice, you're going to have a much more productive and a much different and a much safer and comfortable workplace. Well, I think this is really a valuable discussion because I think everyone has been in that

Starting point is 00:47:57 situation where they didn't speak up. They later regretted it, wish they had. What would have happened if they did? And I think this conversation really helps give people permission and validation for speaking up because it could really do some good. Mary Nestor has been my guest. She's a communications expert, an award-winning speaker, and a business consultant. And the name of her book is Say It Now, Say It Right. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Mary.

Starting point is 00:48:26 Thanks, Mike. It's been a pleasure. Picture in your mind what a burglar looks like. And if your image is a guy dressed in black, wearing a ski mask and holding a flashlight, you are way off. A real burglar is more likely to carry a clipboard or a rake and dress like a meter reader or a landscaper. If you don't answer the door, he'll check it anyway, and if it's unlocked, he'll probably walk right in. If it is locked, he'll go look in the window to see if he sees anything valuable. It could be worth breaking a window for. After all, neighbors probably won't react to one loud sound. Alarm systems do deter burglars, but only if they're activated. Most burglars will tell you that a sticker in the window or a sign in the

Starting point is 00:49:18 yard saying you have a burglar alarm isn't that convincing, and many are willing to take the risk that even if you do have an alarm, it's probably not on during the day, when most burglaries actually happen. It's key to have blinds and shades drawn on all ground-level windows, including the basement, when you're not at home, because it's riskier for a robber to enter into a space that he can't see. And that is something you should know. If you're a regular listener to Something You Should Know,

Starting point is 00:49:49 you have heard me ask you many times to tell someone you know about this podcast, recommend it to a friend, and the reason I keep doing that is because it works. It helps us grow our audience, and it's really a great way to show your support for this podcast. So please recommend Something You Should Know to a friend. I'm Micah Brothers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager,

Starting point is 00:50:30 but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot,

Starting point is 00:50:55 and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're

Starting point is 00:51:17 so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Something You Should Know - The History and Future of Human Transportation & How to Speak Your Mind

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