Something You Should Know - The Magic of Building On Your Strengths and How to Better Handle the Admin of Daily Life

Episode Date: January 17, 2019

Should you really get an annual check-up or go to the dentist twice a year? What about wearing sunscreen everyday? Are all these things really necessary? We begin this episode with a look what the experts say about common health advice you’ve heard all your life.(http://health.usnews.com/health-news/health-wellness/slideshows/do-you-reallyneed-to-cover-the-toilet-seat-with-paper) If you got a bad grade in school, then that was the subject you were told to work on. Fix your weaknesses – get that grade higher. Is that really good advice? Maybe you are better served by focusing on what you are good at rather than trying to improve your abilities for things you don’t like and are not particularly skilled at. Tom Rath, senior scientist and adviser to the Gallup organization and author of the book Strengths Finder 2.0 (https://amzn.to/2TUQ2jI) explains why focusing on your strengths rather than trying to fix your weaknesses is a much better life strategy.  Want your kid to eat healthier? It’s all in the packaging and presentation. Listen as I explain some fascinating research from Yale University that explains how cartoon stickers can help you get your kids to eat right. https://www.chicagotribune.com/living/ct-xpm-2012-08-22-sns-rt-us-stickersbre87l0li-20120822-story.html Ana amazing amount of your day is devoted to the little details of life. Everything from errands to filling out forms, writing emails, taking the car in service – you know what I mean. Elizabeth Emens, a law professor at Columbia Law School has identified all these tasks as – Life Admin. And she has some great ways to deal with all those tasks effectively and efficiently so you can get on to the bigger things in life. Elizabeth is author of the book, Life Admin (https://amzn.to/2syggwZ) and she joins me to discuss and offer some great advice.   This Week’s Sponsors -LinkedIn. For $50 off your first job post, go to www.LinkedIn.com/Podcast -ADT. Go to www.ADT.com/smart to learn how ADT can design and install a smart home system for you. -Quip. Get your first refill free when you buy a quip toothbrush at www.Get Quip.com/something -Care/of Vitamins. For $25 off your first month of personalized vitamins, go to www.TakeCareOf.com and us the promo code: something -Geico. Go to www.Geico.com to see how Geico can save you money on your car insurance Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today on Something You Should Know, do you really need an annual physical or see the dentist two times a year? I'll tell you what the experts say. Then, is it better to improve your weaknesses or grow your strengths? If your child shows up at home with the following grades, an A, a C, and an F, which grade deserves the most time and attention? 75-80% of parents say the F deserves the most attention. And based on the research that we've looked at, if the parents spend even more time focusing on the A, that might result in a better return 20-30 years down the road. Plus, how to get your kids to eat what's good for them. And how well do you handle all the little details of life every day? It's called Life Admin. So naming it has been helpful to me and to a lot of people. People have told me, you've given me now a word for this thing in my day, in my life.

You don't have to feel like, I don't know what happened to my day, because it's possible to say, oh, I know what I did. I did admin all day. That's what I did. All this today on Something You Should Know. As a listener to Something You Should Know, I can only assume that you are someone who likes to learn about new and interesting things and bring more knowledge to work for you in your everyday life. I mean, that's kind of what Something You Should Know was all about.

And so I want to invite you to listen to another podcast called TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks. Well, you see, TED Talks Daily is a podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday in less than 15 minutes. Join host Elise Hu. She goes beyond the headlines so you can hear about the big ideas shaping our future. Learn about things like sustainable fashion, embracing your entrepreneurial spirit,

the future of robotics, and so much more. Like I said, if you like this podcast, Something You Should Know, I'm pretty sure you're going to like TED Talks Daily. And you get TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts. Something You Should Know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome to Something You Should Know. And we start today with a health-related

topic. From childhood, you're told to do certain things to stay healthy, but do we really need to do them all? Well, let's see. Do you really need to wear sunscreen every day? Yes, even if you're only going to and from work. Doing so can help protect you against sunburn, early skin aging, and skin cancer, according to the American Academy of Dermatology.

Do you really have to wash your hands after you use the bathroom? Yes. Hand washing is one of the most effective ways to avoid getting yourself and others sick. Still, in a study of 3,749 people, 10% of people did not wash their hands at all after using the bathroom, 33% did so without any soap, and nearly everyone didn't lather long enough. Do you need to filter your tap water? In most cases, probably not, since tap water in the U.S. is already treated.

However, the quality does depend on where you live, the source of your water, as well as the quality of the pipes in your home. People with a private well should have their water tested annually to make sure it is free of contaminants. Do you really need to get a physical every year? Maybe. Evidence is mixed on whether yearly checkups with a primary care physician do more harm than good, despite the fact that 92% of Americans believe it is an important part of their health care, according to a poll. If you have no ongoing health conditions and you are feeling well, you probably don't need an annual physical, says Dr. Christine Lane, who is editor-in-chief of the Annals of Internal Medicine and senior vice president of the American College of Physicians. What about going to the dentist twice a year?

Do you really need to do that? Maybe. If you smoke, have diabetes, or have a certain genetic marker for gum disease called interleukin-1, you're likely to benefit by going to the dentist twice a year, according to a study in the Journal of Dental Research. Otherwise, it may not make much of a difference whether you see the dentist once or twice a year, according to the study. And what about putting that protector on the public toilet seat before you use it?

Well, if it makes you feel better, it's a good idea, but toilet seats are not a vehicle for transmission of infectious diseases. It's probably a lot more important to use a paper towel to cover up your contact with the faucet handles and the bathroom doorknobs than it is to use a toilet seat cover. And that is something you should know. I heard my first guest talk about this subject some years ago, and I've not only remembered it all these years, but I have really applied it to my life and my kids' life. It's this whole idea of what you're good at and how do you capitalize on that,

rather than the idea of what are your weaknesses and how do we improve on those. That, I think, is kind of school-based thinking. You know, when a student comes home with a report card, the concern and the emphasis is on what classes you didn't do well in, what courses are you weak in, so we can help you get those grades up? And that thinking sticks with people. Fix and focus what you're not good at. And as I think you'll hear, doing that makes very little sense and pays very small dividends. And it's actually more serious than that, because by focusing the spotlight on weaknesses that need fixing, we're not giving enough credit or attention to our strengths, what we're good at. And that is where the magic is and the big payoff in life, to play to your strengths.

And here to explain why this is so important, and probably more important than you ever realized, is Tom Rath. Tom is a researcher and writer with several books to his name. He also currently serves as a senior scientist for and advisor to the Gallup organization. And the book he wrote that applies to this topic is called Strengths Finder 2.0. Hi, Tom. So start by talking about the consequences of not focusing like a laser beam on what you're good at. What's the downside? Well, it's amazing how people kind of wind up in jobs and careers that follow perhaps what a parent had done or what they kind of got slotted into in high school or college and find themselves at age 30, 40,

realizing that they don't spend much time in their areas of strength. And, of course, not only the way our schools are set up, but also as you get into professional development programs and management, it's always about how can you fix what you're not good at and kind of become more well-rounded and good at all kinds of things. And as we started to study human behavior 30, 40 years ago, my colleagues at the Gallup organization did, we found that people actually have a lot more potential for success and growth

in the areas where they do have that natural talent instead of trying to create kind of a well-rounded person, essentially. Yeah, it is so interesting to me that when you look at the best people, these aren't people who sucked at something and just by sheer determination got good at it and became great. The people who are great at something have that natural interest, talent, and ability for that thing. They didn't have to move the needle from sucky to great. They probably only had to move the needle from good to great. Yeah, you know, when we study whether it's the best teachers, the best salespeople, the best nurses, or the best managers,

we always see that they always have more room for growth. So if you have a salesperson who's currently bringing in $9 million of business a year versus a salesperson who's bringing in $1 million, if you put more development and effort and attention toward the one making $9 million, she's much more likely to bring in another $10 million instead of trying to bring the person who's only making $1 million a year up to $9 million or $10 million. So we see that time and time again. We look at it with students and their ability to read quickly and nurses and their ability to treat patients properly and to get good customer satisfaction scores and so on. Well, don't you think it starts in school? You know, we go to school to learn lots of things and we hope we're really good at lots of things,

but people often aren't good at lots of things. They're good at some things, and when they're not good at some things, that's the focus. You know, it does start with parents. We asked a question, and we asked this in about seven or eight countries now, and the Gallup poll question we asked of parents was, if your child shows up at home with the following grades, an A, a C, and an F, which grade deserves the most time and attention? And you can probably guess in every single country we've studied, about 75-80% of parents say the F deserves the most attention. And, of course, if a student's failing a course, it's a real problem. But based on the research that we've looked at,

if the parents spend even more time focusing on the areas where the student already has an A, that might result in a better return 20, 30 years down the road. Well, I know I used to always think that way, that you make better what you're not good at, that that well-rounded person idea is good, until I heard you talk about this a while ago. And it was like, you know, a light switch went on. Like, well, of course, because that's where the real potential is, is to build on what you're already good at, not try to get good at something you're not good at, or that you don't even like. Right. And of course, it's always important to manage around your weaknesses and to find ways to make sure that your weaknesses don't pull you down and

prohibit you from working in areas of strength every day. But if you just think about it from an investment perspective and where you invest your time, your energy, and your attention over a lifetime, all too often we just get caught up in the fix-it mode and neglect our strength. So how do you figure out what your strengths are? I mean, I think some people know what their strengths are. They know what they're good at. But I suspect a lot of people still aren't sure or don't really have a real strong strength that they can go, yeah, well, see,

I'm going to be a lawyer because I'm really good at that. I mean, so how do you figure that out? Yeah, well, a few things are to look for things that you learn rapidly. So what are the things you pick up on naturally? What are things you've done over your lifetime where people say, you know, you're really good at that and you stand out in a crowd? So I think some of the things that we looked at would indicate that most people have the potential to be better than 1,000 or even 10,000 other people in some specific area. So if you're naturally great at listening and comforting someone who's upset and dealing with a problem, do you have a better chance of customer service. If you're naturally very competitive and have that drive to win against others, you're better

off in a sales role. And sometimes we accidentally take people who are great in sales roles and promote them to management instead of allowing them to build more title and status and recognition in a sales role, for example. Don't you find, though, that when you ask people, you know, what are your strengths, that people kind of shrug their shoulders and give you a blank stare? Yeah, most of the time it does result in a blank stare. And that's why we developed the StrengthsFinder assessment that the book's really based around, where people go through about a 30-minute assessment. And then we look at out of the 34 most common human talents we've found over 30,

40 years of study, we give each person their top five talents. And so that gives you a language to start talking about. Do you naturally have competition? Are you an achiever? Is empathy in your top five? Or what are those strengths that kind of bubble up to the top when you sort that in a rank order? So we found that that language really catches on with people, and that's what's being used in workplaces all around the world right now. Interesting. I'm speaking with Tom Rath. Tom is a scientist and advisor to the Gallup organization

and author of the book Strengths Finder 2.0. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most.

Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed, critical thinker.

Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, Tom, don't you think this applies, because I know your focus is on career, finding the right career based on your strengths, but don't you think this applies to everything in life? You know, it sure does. One of the most refreshing lines of business that I think we're in at Gallup is we built a strengths program around this StrengthsFinder assessment for college students. And in the last couple of years, we've had a quarter million college freshmen go through in their first few months of classes to figure out what areas they might want to study, how they can build better relationships, how they can achieve a little bit

more in class each day. And so it's probably even more important for kids at that age to learn about their strength than it is for people who are a little bit older and have already, they're a little bit more set in their careers because at that age, you're still trying to figure out what you want to do, and you have a chance to build a career around your talents. Is there any sense, and I'm not sure you've looked at this, but is there any sense that the sooner in life you identify and grab onto your strength, the better you end up being at it later on in life? Yeah, absolutely. I think the earlier on you can kind of clarify and begin to not only explain, articulate, but then build on your strengths earlier on in life,

the better off you are down the road. And what's interesting is, of course, people change to a degree over time, but there have been some pretty compelling studies I've looked at suggesting that you can look at pretty early traces of personality, at least by the age of 13, that show remarkable stability at ages 23 and 33 and 43. So I think you could start to see those early traces of talent at a pretty young age, at least between 10 and 15, let's say. So are you saying that if you're completely stumped and you don't know what you're good at or what you'd like to do, that you could look back to when you were 13 and get a clue?

Or just some of your natural tendencies. And from a personality perspective, I think you can see the early traces of someone who naturally has a lot of harmony and brings peace to a group in comparison to someone who's naturally competitive and has a lot of achievement drive at those ages. So you start to see those traces in children somewhere around that range. Well, that's interesting because when you think about a lot of college freshmen who don't know what they want to major in, they don't know which direction they want to go,

when in fact if they were to take a look back to their early teens, the seed may already have been planted. Yeah, I think in many cases that seed is already planted. Sometimes it's having a conversation with a person who's been a great mentor and advisor to you over the years and just asking them to reflect on where have they seen you excel. Because I'm amazed by how many people kind of go through this assessment and look at their talents and a few of the things that come out will make sense. Then there are others who will say, well, this doesn't seem like me.

I haven't noticed this in myself. But then when they share it with another person who knows them real well, their best friend or spouse or a parent, the other person gets it right away. Yeah, you know, that sounds right, because I bet a lot of people are good at something, have a real strength in something, but because it comes so easily to them, they discount it to some degree. So to have someone else say that you're really, this is what you're really good at is probably a good way to see what your strengths are.

Yeah, I think for part of the equation there, it's good to get feedback from others about where they've seen you really differentiate yourself from a crowd. What about people who are a bit older, in their 30s or 40s or older? And so they're not trying to figure out what course to take in life. They've already taken a course, and they know they're pretty unhappy in the course they've taken.

What do those people do? That's where it's key to evaluate what you spend your time doing in kind of a tactical way on a day-to-day basis and think about in your job, what are the moments where you're actually having a good time? Is it when you're spending time with your colleagues and socializing about things? Is it when you're really winning over a customer? What are those moments in the day where you do experience quite a bit of satisfaction and enjoyment? And then try and figure out if there's any way you can carve out a little more time each month in those areas where you're enjoying your time and your work. And in most cases, that can help a little bit.

And in other cases, of course, you need to reevaluate and say, if this is a job that you really don't have much passion about and you're not spending even 10% of your time in an area where you have a lot of strength or talent, then maybe you need to reevaluate the line of work you're in. Well, and I imagine, too, that there are people who do know what their strength is or knew what their strength was and chose it and followed it, but the thing they've chosen has now become obsolete or it's, you know, hard to make a living doing that anymore.

So now what do they do? Right. I mean, that's why it's even more important probably to know your kind of natural tendencies and personality so you can be more adaptive as not only new jobs come up, but new assignments within your current role. So you can step back and say, how can I connect what I'm naturally good at to these three things, A, B, and C, that I need to get done every week on the job. Do you find, though, that there are still people who go through this process, who try to figure out what their strengths are based on all the criteria you talk about, and come out at the other end and go, no, there's nothing.

Nothing really grabs me. Sure. You know, I think there are some people who just really struggle with the specificity of identifying what they're good at. In some ways, I think that's kind of a theme of personality, too, when you're really not sure and you don't, some people might describe you as not being the most decisive person, but yet you can really step back and take in a lot of information, soak it in. Sometimes that really works to your benefit if you can turn it in the right direction,

and other times it's very challenging because you spend a lot of time in your life trying to figure out which way to go. What if the way you want to go, what if the thing you uncover that's your strength really has no marketable value? I think that's an ongoing challenge. If there are things that you're very interested in, very good at, and you can't figure out any way to get paid to do that, then out ways to connect their talents to things that they can do well and spend a lot of time in those areas if they find the right job. But in some cases, it is important to step back and evaluate if you're in the line of work you're in because you love it and you're good at it, or if you're in the line of work you're in because you wound up there because you need to get a paycheck or because it's what your parents did or someone recommended it during college.

Is it the case that people, when they stop and go through this process and really think about what their strengths are, that they tend to gravitate towards one thing? Or can you gravitate to multiple things? Could you take your assessment, for example, and come out the other end and say, well, you know, this guy could be a really good barista or a really good astronaut? Well, yeah, I think that, you know, the assessment that we've developed doesn't get into specific careers. that in general people could go in different directions that could lead them to being either a barista or an astronaut because they have interests and talents and strengths in multiple areas? I think most people could go in multiple directions in terms of specific careers. There's a way to apply, let's say you're extremely analytical,

there's a way to apply that in myriad jobs, whether you're talking about being a stockbroker or an astronaut or a science teacher in high school. So there are many applications based on your kind of unique personality and talents we've found. When you talk to people who claim to know their strengths, they have no question about it, are they usually right? Yeah, for the most part,

they are right. Sometimes it's good to get validation from others to make sure you're on the right track. But when people find that area where they're naturally engaged in their jobs, not only do you find they get more done, but they're a lot more satisfied with their lives as well. You know, one of the big challenges in the workplace today is that from a management perspective, I think managers are one key to fixing the problem we have today where in the workplaces we study around the world, about 20% of people are actively disengaged or real negative about their jobs, don't like what they're doing, tell people how they hate working at their company and so forth. Whereas if you have a manager who regularly helps you to focus on your strengths, the chances of you being real angry or actively disengaged are just one in a hundred.

So a lot of the responsibility here lies on managers and organizations to sit down with the people who work for them and help them to figure out what are their natural talents and how can they apply that in the job they're in today. Well, I think this is such an important topic because we all come to that fork in the road early in life and then other forks in the road as life goes on. And to have an idea of which road to take at the fork, I think, really helps. Tom Rath has been my guest. He's a researcher and writer, and he is a senior scientist and advisor to the Gallup organization. And he's author of several books, including Strengths Finder 2.0. You'll find a link to his book in the show notes for this episode. Thanks, Tom. Appreciate you being here. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a co-founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go,

putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lightning, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. During her journey, Isla meets new friends, including King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table,

and learns valuable life lessons with every quest, sword fight, and dragon ride. Positive and uplifting stories remind us all about the importance of kindness, friendship, honesty, and dragon ride. Positive and uplifting stories remind us all about the importance of kindness, friendship, honesty, and positivity. Join me and an all-star cast of actors, including Liam Neeson, Emily Blunt, Kristen Bell, Chris Hemsworth, among many others, in welcoming the Search for the Silver Lining podcast

to the Go Kid Go Network by listening today. Look for the Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. People who listen to something you should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more.

A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for.

Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. When you listen to all the success gurus and read the books and watch the TED Talks and even listen to podcasts like this, there's often a lot of talk about achieving the big goals in life. But the fact is, life is full of other stuff. Sure, it would be great if you could apply all your time to work on all the big things you want to accomplish, but you still have to go to the grocery store, the dry cleaners, you got to take your car in and pay your bills and a million other things. That's life admin. It's how you handle all the day-to-day life stuff. And not a lot of people talk about it because it's kind of mundane. It's not very sexy and exciting. Yet,

it's critical to your success when you think about it. Elizabeth Emmons has decided to dig really deep into this. She is a professor of law at Columbia University, and she's author of the book, Life Admin. Hi, Elizabeth. Welcome. Hello. Happy New Year. I love this topic just because not a lot of people talk about it. It isn't very flashy and exciting to talk about the administration of day-to-day life, yet it's so important. So why did you decide to take a look at this? This project started for me because I was feeling completely overwhelmed in my own life. And at first I thought it was just my problem. And then I looked around, looked at what other people were doing, and I realized that everyone around me seemed to be overwhelmed as well. And

I saw that there was this kind of invisible layer of work that everyone was doing, this kind of office work. You know, we were aware of the chores we had to do at home, the physical chores, cooking and cleaning and that kind of thing. But it was like we hadn't really been prepared for all the managerial labor and secretarial labor of filling out forms and making decisions and planning and all the kinds of everyday things, both paying bills and doing taxes, but also lost luggage and broken technology, admin, and big life events like having a child, getting married, or also hard things like a health crisis. These all come with huge amounts of admin. And so those little things you're talking about, they can really add up. And yet, in an office, you know, who is the hero?

It's the office administrator who can really, you know, make things fly or not. I mean, we celebrate it at work. We see it at work. But we don't recognize the importance of it all in our personal lives. Absolutely. And at work, this kind of labor is often distributed among multiple people. So there is the manager, there's the secretary, there's human resources, who's also figuring out how people feel about it. And there may be some kind of, you know, research operations division that looks into things or committees, whole committees are created to pursue a particular project. And at home, this may be

handled by two people or one person. And so it's not surprising, it's overwhelming. But this stuff isn't going to go away. This is stuff that has to get done. And yes, you're shining a light on it and saying, yes, it's really important, but how do you do it differently? How do you get a handle on it better so that it isn't such a burden? Well, so naming it has been helpful to me and to a lot of people I've talked to. People have told me, you've given me now a word for this thing in my day, in my life, in my marriage. You don't have to feel like, I don't know what happened to my day because it's possible to say, oh, I know what I did. I did admin all day. That's what I did. I did something. So for starters, that can help. It can help with the feeling of guilt or embarrassment

of it seeming as though you're just not getting things done because you're actually getting all these other things done. But there's more we can do than just feel better. We can also make changes in the choices that we make. So from the interviews I did in brainstorming sessions, I have identified four main admin personalities. We tend to each center in one of these personalities, though we may be different across different kinds of life events. And then there are strategies we can learn from each of the four personalities.

So quickly, what are the four personalities? Sure. They are the super-doer, the reluctant doer, the admin avoider, and the admin denier. The names may help convey something to you, but basically the first two are both doers. They're both getting it done. And the last two are mostly avoiding or denying they're not getting this kind of stuff done. And then the differences have to do too with how you feel about it. So the reluctant doer is doing it, but really wishing that they didn't have to. I'm generally a reluctant doer. It sounds like a hierarchy, but each of them actually has something to teach us. So an avoider, a great avoider strategy that I write about is trusting. So trusting that the neighbors near your new home know when to put the garbage out.

So rather than calling up the sanitation department or going online and searching to try to figure out, you just look out every day and see, oh, you know, did they put their garbage out today? Okay, I'll put it out today. So trusting is a strategy we can learn from avoiders. I am probably the same as you. I'm reluctant, but what's interesting about it is that when I get all that stuff done, it feels so good. I mean, it's like, oh, wow, now that the slate is clean,

but the next time I'm still just as reluctant to do it. That was one of the big surprises of my research was how many people I interviewed found that at least some of the time, when they made time for it, they could actually get some kind of pleasure from it, either from the done-it pleasure of having completed it, if you've ever made a list and crossed things off, enjoyed crossing them off so much that you put things on that you'd already done on your list just so you could cross them off, then you understand done it pleasure. But also sometimes from the process of it. One of my proudest avoiders talked about being on a plane overseas once and doing his taxes on the plane and actually kind of enjoying it, even though he was

really an avoider and really tried not to have to face this stuff. But it can be a little like a crossword puzzle when you make the space for it. And that's part of the magic of seeing it as real, is it makes it more possible to make the space for it. But regardless of the type that you are, are there some strategies to tackle this stuff and handle it and weave it into your life so that it's easier? Yeah. For starters, a simple to-do list is a strategy that I learned actually from super doers. I was surprised how many of my super doer interviewees had gone back to paper or what

I use. I use paper when I have a huge amount to do in a day, then I'll make a list for that particular day. But otherwise, I use the notes app in my phone. I've tried a lot of different apps for to-do lists, and I just found that for me it was often more of a drain dealing with them, and they were glitchy or they didn't do quite what I wanted, and a simple list in my phone works even better. Other things we can do is you can bypass the to-do list altogether

by taking care of something right when it's coming at you, right when somebody says to you, oh, who's your eye doctor? Can you give me your eye doctor's information? Instead of saying, oh, sure, I'll send that to you, oh, who's your eye doctor? Can you give me your eye doctor's information? And instead of saying, oh, sure, I'll send that to you, you can say, here, I'll do it right now, while the person's standing there in order to give you their email address or their phone number to text it to them. And so you don't ever have to put it on your to-do list. So they're small strategies, but the personalities help us not just if you're that personality, but we can learn from the other personalities and we can try on a new admin personality as a kind of shortcut to trying a new approach to this.

Yeah, well, I imagine it is personality dependent to some degree, but it would seem that perhaps there are some ways, like since you know you're going to have to pay the bills every month, is it better to sit down and pay them all at once, or do you, you know, stagger it, pay three bills a week? Is there any sense of, you know, what feels better or is it just too independent? One thing I found is that for some people, and this really has helped me, actually planning it with someone else. So I created admin study hall when I was going through a particularly intense admin onslaught. So once a week for an hour, sometimes more often than that, I would plan with a friend that we would show up on

video conference with easier. We couldn't meet in person and just do our admin together for an hour, not together, but just side by side, like in a study hall. So that it was possible to really see it and appreciate it and appreciate that it takes everybody a huge amount of time. Now, for some people, they don't want to get together with somebody else. But I do think that setting aside that hour, I have a solo study hall kind of chart in the book that one can use just to say, okay, here's an hour. Here's what I'm going to try to do or half an hour. Here's what I'm going to try to do. I'm going to try to set goals and take these steps and yeah, and make it real. Where's the line between this is just life admin and this is bigger stuff?

Or is it even important to make the distinction? By bigger stuff, you mean? You know, getting a new job or starting your business. I mean, bigger goals rather than just get the electric bill paid. Yeah, so admin can be part of any life goal. I think of admin as the means to the end though. And it's a particular kind of means. It's the office type of part of the means rather than the physical labor of say doing dishes. And so you can actually make something more or less admin like, so I wrote a blog post for Psychology Today last month

about giving gifts for the holidays. If you go online and you look up best gifts for people in their 80s to buy all the gifts for the old people in your family and order the same gift for everybody off of that list, that's really admin. If you spend hours shopping in stores and you like doing that, you can turn that same activity into not admin. So depending on your time, how much time you have and how you want to do it, you can make it be faster and more admin-like or slower and more pleasurable.

You know, we've been talking for the most part under the assumption that for most people, this kind of life admin stuff is boring, drudgery, would rather not do it kind of stuff. But are there people who really enjoy tackling these kinds of things? I think some people like it more than others. But I think each of us has ways in to pleasures around admin that may surprise us. And most of us steel ourselves against it to make sure it doesn't take up more time than it should and that we want it to so it doesn't distract us from our other goals,

which can be a good approach. But when we have to sit down to do it, it's helpful to find out our admin pleasures. And then I think those are pretty particular. And so in the pleasures chapter, I give some different axes along which we can vary. Like some people like to do it with other people. Some people like to do it alone. Some people prefer paper. Some people love new technology. If you can find which ways are yours into those

pleasures, then when you have to face it, it doesn't have to be as bad. Are there things from all the talking with other people and looking at this, are there some particular tasks or admin tasks that people particularly have trouble with? Insurance admin is particularly burdensome. That's one of the areas too where I think we could really have reform. Insurance industry is very highly regulated already. It should be regulated for how insurers spend our time, not just our money. Like how so? Like what do you mean? Well, we should be able to know in advance if we have a choice about an insurance company or if it's a public entity, insurers should be evaluated based on how many minutes of your time it takes to submit a claim, to get reimbursed, to contest a denial that turns out actually to have been valid. But right now,

it's on the insurer's side. If they do what's called rationing by hassle, by just making it hard for you and you give up, then that's money in the bank for them. There should actually be costs to insurers of wasting our time. And speaking of costs, I mean, what are the costs of this? What are the costs of this? If you don't do this well, what's the price you pay? Well, it depends on the kind of work. One obvious cost is just the huge amount of time that it takes. I mean, the free application for federal student aid, the FAFSA form that people have to fill out if they're applying for financial aid or have to fill out for their kids, cost U.S. families 30 million hours last year. And people also don't refinance their home mortgages

when they could. One study found that approximately 20% of U.S. households that could benefit from home mortgage refinancing don't do it. And there's a foregone savings of $5.4 billion. And this often happens just because someone fails to open their mail. So there can be big costs to not doing this. And as somebody who has a pile of mail in my hallway, I can understand. Right. Well, that's an interesting part of this. When I hear the term life admin, I think more of the day-to-day drudgery of just getting through life. But there are bigger issues here, and that's a big one. If you don't refinance your house and could save a lot of money, I mean, that's a real cost. It's a real cost. Are there others? You mentioned the insurance and the applying for financial aid. What are some of the other things that maybe we're ignoring

because it's just such a hassle that we need to keep our eye on? Well, if people don't pay their taxes, you know, there can be huge consequences to that. I signed up for identity theft protection, which I don't think is any foolproof scheme, but from the person I interviewed who'd been through identity theft and the huge time costs that came with that, it seemed worth it to me to sign up for identity theft protection, we can just be clobbered by this work when we didn't do it. I don't know if you've seen Mary Poppins Returns. I just saw it with my kids yesterday. And the whole frame of the movie is they can't find a stock certificate from their father, who is the, and so they're going to have to lose their house because they can't find it buried in their attic. And they do, you'll be glad to know, well, I shouldn't, spoiler alert, they do eventually find it. But losing that stock certificate, right, could mean losing their house. But more seriously, for people who are on public benefits, if you don't open your mail, you may lose your housing.

And I did interviews with a clinic that works with people dealing with benefits who, a lot of what that legal clinic does is help people try to keep their housing or their food stamps when small admin errors can lead to these huge costs. Yeah, it is so. The more I listen to you and the more I think about all the things, I mean, keeping track of important papers and, you know, where's the ownership certificate for your car when it's time to sell it and where's your birth certificate when you need that.

And, yeah, maybe it should be in a bank security box, but who has the time? And so I stuck it in a drawer and now I don't know where it is. And it just goes on and on and on and on. I think one helpful thing actually for really important papers, some people are really good at filing and they like filing and they get pleasure from the organization of it, and that's great. But I also interviewed somebody who keeps a box for the year of papers, and that's because he always knows where to look because they're always in the 2018 box. I have a fireproof safe where I put really important things. So I know if it's really important, it's going to be in that fireproof safe. Yeah. And, you know, often it takes, I think, you know, something bad to happen to wake people up about this, like you really can't find your birth certificate. And now you've got to go through the huge hassle of getting, you know, another copy

of it. copy of it, and then it's like, oh, wake-up call. Maybe it's time to organize this stuff so this doesn't happen again. And it's helpful if we can pay attention to it and see it so that we do it up front, or when that moment comes and we have to face it, we at least don't feel so bad about the hours that we lose putting that system together. The ideas to try section I have at the end of the book is organized by when you're in an onslaught, here are some tips and ideas to try,

and when you are at a moment where you can make a system improvement, like what you're talking about, like saying, okay, it's really time to organize my important documents so I have them when I need them, because those aren't the same moment. And when you're suddenly dealing with an ailing parent, it's not the moment where you're going to go and reorganize your attic to find all your paperwork and put it neatly into files. It just isn't that moment. And so we need different kinds of techniques for those different periods of time. So for someone listening who's listening to you and thinking, yeah, you know, I hadn't really thought about this. This is important.

But so where do you start? What do you do first to kind of get your head in this game? Well, of course, I would say you go and buy the book, Life Admin. But more seriously, I do think the starting point is naming it and naming it in your relationships with other people and starting to talk about it so that you see where it is and where the difficult points are for you. And then I think to start with a simple list, just finding a simple way to keep track of things if you don't have one already.

There are also some New Year's ways we can use an admin perspective that have been helping me out lately too. For example? Well, if we see that most goals that we have have an admin component. So if I want to exercise more this year, which let's just say hypothetically, I do, I want to exercise more this year, then I could make a plan to play tennis with a friend, but then I'm going to have to always plan with that friend. We're going to have to schedule. So one of the things I do is I make default plans.

And the best way for me to do that is if I can make a plan, like I'm going to go to the gym every Friday morning at 7 a.m., and I'm going to be there, and if I can make a plan with a friend, we're both going to be there at 7 a.m., great, but we're still going to go even if the other person cancels. So I'm going to put it in my phone on repeat so I know it's supposed to happen. It's an appointment and I'm not going to cancel just because my friend doesn't show up. Because the rescheduling admin is often one of

our big hurdles. If you're somebody who's trying to change the way you're eating, you may not think about how much admin is involved in finding a new way of eating. You have to find new recipes. You have to find where to get the food you're going to eat. And that takes time. And so zeroing out some other area of life for that period, like I'm not going to deal with social media for two weeks while I just actually try to get the new diet going, can carve out the space where otherwise admin can be a kind of invisible drag on whatever you're trying to do. Well, life admin, it seems to be an invisible drag on everything people are trying to do unless they actually kind of look at it and say, you know, this is a real thing.

It's not just something in the periphery that I need to get to. It really does need attention rather than just default attention. And if we can all pay attention to it, we can collectively make it better. I now write on the end of my text, often when it's true, I write NNR, by which I mean no need to reply. So the person knows, they don't need to send another email in response. They don't have to write back and say, thanks, I got it, or whatever it is. And so, you know, we can find some ways to make things end and spare other people some of this extra labor, and then they may also return the favor. Oh, I like that idea, the NNR at the end of texts and emails. I'm going to start doing that and hope that people either know what it means or ask what it means,

because I get a lot of those emails that just say, thanks, or got it, and they're just not really necessary. Elizabeth Emmons has been my guest. She is a law professor at Columbia Law School and author of the book Life Admin. There's a link to her book in the show notes. Thanks, Liz. It's great talking to you. If you're going to go to the trouble of packing a lunch or a snack for your child, you might want to pack some stickers too. Some interesting

research at Yale University found that kids ate and enjoyed food more from a package that was decorated with cartoon characters. The experiment involved clear bags with an assortment of things like graham crackers, fruit snacks, and baby carrots. Some of the bags had been decorated with a sticker of Shrek or Dora the Explorer or Scooby-Doo. More than half the kids went for that bag first and even said it tasted better than the identical snack from the plain bag. The sticker trick was more effective on sweet snacks —vegetables were a tougher sell— with kids liking the fresh fruit snacks the best

and that is something you should know i like to mention from time to time that if any of the advertisers in this podcast sound interesting to you you can get their websites and all the promo codes the discount codes for discounts in the show notes for each individual episode. It is the advertisers who keep this podcast going, so by doing business with our advertisers, you support this podcast. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community.

Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn

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