Something You Should Know - The Mysterious Impact Strangers Have On You & Why You Are Bombarded By So Many Ads

Episode Date: July 5, 2018

Getting kids – or even some grownups – to eat their vegetables can be frustrating. However there are some simple techniques that researchers at Cornell University have studied that appear to be quite effective Listen and I’ll tell you how and you’ll discover the fascinating side effects of improving your reputation as a cook and a human being amongst your family members. And who wouldn’t want to do that? http://foodpsychology.cornell.edu/OP/Loving_Cook You likely don’t give a lot of thought to how important strangers are to you because, well, they are strangers. However, certain strangers can play a far more important and seemingly mysterious role in your personal and professional success. Melinda Blau, author of the book Consequential Strangers (https://amzn.to/2NdVWKv) joins me to discuss this. Do you or someone in your circle get motion sickness? Ever wonder why that is and the best cure for it? I’ll discuss some interesting findings from a leading researcher on motion sickness that can offer some real relief. http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/features/how-to-beat-motion-sickness?page=2 How many ad messages do you think you are exposed to every day? The number will astound you. Journalist Ken Auletta, author of the book Frenemies: The Epic Disruption of the Ad Business (and Everything Else) https://amzn.to/2tL09x8 joins me to explain why the advertising business is in turmoil and the rather serious consequences it can have on you as a consumer.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today on Something You Should Know, if you want to get your family to eat more vegetables, I'll tell you how and it's really easy. Then there's this mysterious influence strangers have on you. Not any stranger, but consequential strangers. You know the person who you play golf with on occasion is a consequential stranger. I'm just saying pay attention to them. You will end up getting more information, more support, and more companionship than you realized before. Plus, if you're traveling this summer and get motion sickness, I have something to tell you

that will help you feel a lot better. And it seems that the more advertising you see, the less effective it becomes. Facebook has done studies that say that if you do a video ad on Facebook, if you don't capture someone's attention in the first two seconds, they will tune out. Two seconds? Oh my God, how do you do that? All this today on Something You Should Know. As a listener to Something You Should Know, I can only assume that you are someone who likes to learn about new and interesting things and bring more knowledge to work for you in your everyday life. I mean, that's kind of what Something You Should Know was all about.

And so I want to invite you to listen to another podcast called TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks. Well, you see, TED Talks Daily is a podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday in less than 15 minutes. Join host Elise Hu.

She goes beyond the headlines so you can hear about the big ideas shaping our future. Learn about things like sustainable fashion, embracing your entrepreneurial spirit, the future of robotics, and so much more. Like I said, if you like this podcast, Something You Should Know, I'm pretty sure you're going to like TED Talks Daily. And you get TED Talks, wherever you get your podcasts.

Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. As you might imagine, the majority of the audience for this podcast is American. United States, Canada. And it makes sense. I mean, I'm American. Many of the guests and the other content is all from Americans. There's certainly an American focus to this podcast. But with that said, it is amazing to me how many people listen all over the world. We get reports from our hosting company and we can see where all the downloads happen.

And I think literally, or almost literally, every country on the planet, at least somebody is listening to this podcast every month. In fact, last month, the report showed three downloads from Vatican City. So I don't know if the Pope is listening himself, but it's pretty cool not only how big this audience has grown, and it has grown a lot over the past year, but also how vast the audience is from all over the planet. First up today, here's a sentence that no parent has ever said in the entire history of the world.

My child is eating far too many vegetables. So if that is a concern in your house, if your kids or anyone in your home is not eating enough vegetables, here's some interesting information from the Cornell University's Food and Brand Lab. It turns out that children are more willing and more likely to eat vegetables at dinner than at any other time of the day. Yet only about 23% of home-cooked dinners contain a full serving of vegetables. So if you want your family to eat more vegetables, dinner is the place to start. Secondly, by serving vegetables as part of a family meal, the whole meal is then perceived as tastier by the people at the table who are eating it,

even if they don't particularly like vegetables. Thirdly, people who serve vegetables with meals are perceived as more thoughtful, attentive, and capable, even if those vegetables are frozen or come out of a can. So, to sum up, by serving vegetables with dinner, you'll be thought of as a better cook, more attentive, and a more capable human being. And your family will eat more vegetables. Not a bad payoff. And that is something you should know.

When you look at where you are in your life today, you got here in large part as a result of the people in your life. Your family, your friends, your colleagues and mentors and other important people helped you get to where you are today. But what you probably haven't considered are the seemingly unimportant people, the strangers, the casual acquaintances. It turns out that these people have had a huge impact in your life and continue to, and they're worth paying attention to. Melinda Blau has researched this and wrote a book about it called Consequential Strangers. Hi Melinda, thanks for being here. So, start by explaining, if you will, exactly how these seemingly inconsequential people

really have an important role to play in our lives. Let me give you an example. You have a mechanic, and you don't think much about him until your car breaks down. But having that mechanic is a very, very important part of your life. You go to the office. You have many coworkers or your neighbors. You may not have a lot of words with your neighbor, but he or she might tell you about a sale that's going on in town.

The thing is that our intimates know what we know, and they think the way we think. Consequential strangers, by definition, are different. So they bring us novelty, new information. Studies have shown that they really matter when we're sick because it's a fresh perspective. It's someone else to rely on than just the family, because our families tend to get burnt out when we're sick. And so consequential strangers are important and do matter. So it is what it is that these strangers, these inconsequential people we run into will tell us about a sale or give us new information when we're sick, that kind of thing. But why is this so important to talk about?

What's the big so what here? One of the things is that, you know, when we walk through the world, many of us have so many things to do and so much on our minds. And there are a lot of choices to make every day. You cannot simply depend on your intimates for that information and those choices. It's also a very, very important spiritual act to know that you're not alone in this world, that there really are people that are connected to you. However tenuous those connections might seem, you really aren't alone.

And if you avail yourself, people are like resources for you. And so it maximizes your resources. People who have an awareness of their consequential strangers are more likely to get through difficult times in their lives. They're more likely to hear information earlier than someone who's isolated. And they also tend to live longer. I mean, there's some wonderful epidemiological research that suggests that people who have broader social networks

live longer than people who are isolated. People who are depressed, for example, many of them are depressed because they just don't have people in their lives to talk to. So it's very important to have intimates. You know, that's been established for a long time. But what we're just getting to in science is the realization that it's not just the intimates, it's our so-called weak ties that also matter. But isn't there a progression?

Because a lot of the people in your life now started as strangers. In fact, many of them, by definition, must have at one point been strangers, and then they became maybe acquaintances, and then maybe they became friends. So consequential strangers often don't stay that way. There's a range of consequential strangers. You know, the person who you play golf with on occasion is a consequential stranger consequential strangers are people who you usually have one thing in common with not whereas your intimates you do a lot of different things within your lives overlap in a lot of

different ways so you know we can't possibly have 500 best friends for example if you think of Facebook most of the people on Facebook are consequential strangers, and they're very happily, they stay at that level, and that's a good thing. So it's not a matter of, like, oh, my God, I can't handle all these people in my life. They are already in your life. I'm just saying pay attention to them. You will end up getting more information, more support, and more companionship than you realized before.

So what you're saying, I think, is that we don't take these relationships with these consequential strangers too seriously, because by their nature, they're strangers, so we don't give them a whole lot of thought, but maybe we should. Right. That is exactly my point. And consequential strangers are usually different from us, and we can learn something from them. I don't mean just the information. We can learn something about the differences.

It's a different perspective. So if you, for example, you have a problem, and you mull it over with your family, if you take that problem to someone else, he or she may suddenly have a totally different slant on it and say, did you consider this or did you consider that? And that's what consequential strangers are good for. You know, we often tend to either think of relationships as either close or not close,

but you can feel close to a consequential stranger. You may not see the person often. You may not be in each other's lives. You may not invite the person ever to your house for dinner. But when you see him or her, it's a very enjoyable time. And he's always in your life. You know that he's there if you need him. And it seems, like I was saying earlier,

that most close friends pretty much had to start off as consequential strangers. Absolutely. You know, there's a progression. You go from stranger to consequential stranger to friend to best friend to soulmate. You know, there's a continuum of relationships. And relationships are very fluid. They don't stay the same, and if your circumstances change, your consequential strangers often change. For example, I moved up to Northampton, Massachusetts out of Manhattan many years ago, and when

I first got there, I was totally at sea. I didn't realize why, but I suddenly found out that what it was is that I lost all my consequential strangers. The green grocer who knew that I liked Concord grapes and told me when it was in season, people who I'd run into on the street and have a 10-minute conversation with and really enjoy those 10 minutes, none of those people were there anymore. So when you move to a new town or in a new office or you get divorced, your life situation

changes. You need to replenish your supply of consequential strangers. I'm speaking with Melinda Blau and the name of her book is Consequential Strangers. If you wanted to learn something new, where would you go to learn it? Well, if you were to ask me that question, I would say, without hesitation, Udemy.

As you can imagine, as the host of Something You Should Know, learning new things inspires me, and Udemy is the place to learn whatever you want. I bet there's something you wish you knew or knew better, and I'm virtually certain there is a class or two or more to teach you at Udemy.

Udemy is the largest and most accessible online learning marketplace, with over 65,000 courses, from coding to comic book art to just about anything you can imagine, created by diverse and fascinating people from all over the world, all available to you anywhere on their website and app. When I got a new DSLR camera a while back, I took a Udemy course to help me take better pictures with it. I know there is something you want to learn,

and Udemy has helped me set up this exclusive offer for my listeners only. Go to ude.my slash something right now and get 90% off when you sign up for classes. You will not find a better price. So sign up for classes now using my link. And this link is a little unusual, so make a note. It's ude.my slash something. And get access to life-changing classes for 90% off. With this offer, you're looking at getting some excellent classes

for literally just a few dollars. That's ude.my slash something. ude.my slash something. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and

radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker.

Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Contained herein are the heresies of Rudolf Buntwine, erstwhile monk turned traveling medical investigator. Join me as I study the secrets of the divine plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth that ours is not a loving God and we are not its favored children. The Heresies of Rudolf Bantwine,

wherever podcasts are available. So, Melinda, I'm wondering if you can go backwards. Can you go from consequential stranger to friend and then go back to being a consequential stranger or not? I would say once you're a good friend, I don't think you can because when you share certain intimacies, you can't. I think it depends on what the relationship was before. I had a funny experience with my college roommate

when I was talking about this book years ago when I first was planning to write it, and I referred to her as a consequential stranger, and she said to me, Hey, I knew your mother and father. I knew who you dated. I lived with you. How could I ever be a consequential

stranger? And she's right. In that case, of course, you can't go backwards, even if the person is out of your life right now. But there do seem to be people in my life that are inconsequential strangers. There is no consequence to the relationship. I'm thinking like when I walk my dog down the street street and there's the neighbors down there and we wave to each other because we all know we live on the same street, but there's never anything more than that. And there likely never will be anything more than that. Those relationships are really just baloney. I mean, there's nothing there. I mean, I say hi to them, they say hi to me as if we care, but we really don't care.

There's no relationship, and there never will be. It seems very phony. Well, listen, every relationship is different, and I don't think it really is phony. I think that when you live in a town or you live on a street, you live in a building, and there are people that you pass by every day, and you may not know what they do, you may not know their name. You're all part of, just by circumstance, you're part of the same, quote, community. And it's a nice thing to actually know that person's name.

You don't have to share a lot of time with the person, but say, hi, Mac, how are you doing today? I don't think it's phony. I think it's about connecting and courtesy and feeling that you're part of something bigger, as opposed to, you know, most of us go about our day and we're very focused on what we have to do. And it doesn't take a lot of time to be nice to people. And I'm telling you that it makes you feel better. I've had people where I've tried an experiment with a friend who is chronically depressed

and I said to her, try to go through the next week and just don't even speak to people if it doesn't feel right, but at least smile at them and nod hello. And she did that and she really felt better after that week. And this is somebody who was chronically depressed. Well, it's kind of nice to hear that it's okay for people to have people who are just in the periphery, that you never really pull them into your circle of friends, and that's fine. That's right.

In fact, I say in the book, I have the line, it's not an insult to call someone a consequential stranger. And it's not. It's saying, I have these people in my life who come in and out of my life. They're there for a very, very small purpose. They may not have huge effect on my life, but some of them do. I mean, sometimes you don't know how a consequential stranger is going to affect your life.

So, for example, you might go to a Christmas party every year, and you know the hostess, and you've met some of her friends. So friends of friends are consequential strangers, and you have small talk at the party. Now, you might label that small talk phony, but it's social grease, let's put it that way. And you go home, and months later,

you realize that you have to go to India. And suddenly you remember that Sally's friend's husband does business in India. So you call up Sally and say, could you give me your friend's husband does business in India. So you call up Sally and say, could you give me your friend's husband's telephone number? And because he met you at one point, he's very happy to give you telephone numbers of people in Mumbai. And that's how, when you're aware of those connections,

as I say, you have all these resources at your fingertips, which if you're not aware, you don't even realize it. You think of yourself as I'm in this little tunnel with me and my loved ones and the people I work with, and I come and I come, and that's it. But we're really attached to many more people than we realize. So perhaps if you snapped your fingers and all of your consequential strangers disappeared, you'd really notice it. But unless you did that, you don't notice the role they play and how important they can be. That's right. Really, before I even read the term consequential strangers,

I experienced that loss when I moved up to Massachusetts. And I had no consequential strangers. And for lack of a better word, I called them acquaintances and I went on an acquaintanceship campaign. I decided I didn't need good friends. I just needed to be able to walk down the street and recognize somebody, to walk into a store and have them know something that I liked or to be able to call up a doctor to ask my neighbor, look, I'm going to be out of my house for two weeks.

If you see anything strange, could you call me? I couldn't do that when I first got to Northampton because I had no consequential strangers. You know, as you just said that, I mean, that is like the perfect example of a consequential stranger that matters. When you walk into your, whatever, your favorite coffee shop or your favorite restaurant or your favorite store and the person knows you by name,

there's something nice about that. It doesn't mean it's on its way to a friendship. It's just nice to have a person know who you are and maybe what you like, and that's it. But because no one of these consequential strangers makes that big a difference in your life, we kind of don't think much about them. Right. As far as I know, there's no laybook about this.

There are some professional books that have been written about sociability in public places. So they talk about things like cafes and ballparks and places. Sociologists have looked at those kind of places where people socialize in public. And the truth is consequential strangers are mostly in public. They are public friends, many of them that you will never, ever invite to your home. And the interesting thing is that one of the things that happened to me writing this book is that I stopped trying to categorize relationships. There's no way to say this is an X kind of consequential stranger as opposed to a Y kind of consequential stranger

because, as you say, the relationships change. And the other thing is that sometimes you can have a consequential stranger, and this happened to me this past summer. I met a woman who, she was friends of friends. I had never talked to her. And at the time I met her, she had stage 4 bone cancer. She was always smiling, and I couldn't understand why. And we started having conversations on the beach.

And I was astounded at how much she could tell me. And she said to me at one point, she said, you know, I can't talk this way with my intimates because i know i'm going to die and when i say that they think i'm being morbid but i can say it to you and by the same token i i was um more relaxed talking to her about her treatment and what she was going through than a close friend who's going through cancer because I had this emotional knot in my stomach every time I talked to my friend. And by the end of the six weeks, I really felt like, this may sound strange, I really felt like I loved this woman.

We had shared a very, very deep emotional bond, but we were still consequential strangers. We really weren't in each other's lives, and yet it was a very, very meaningful relationship for me. I learned a lot, and it was very emotionally satisfying as well. So we can't really categorize relationships as either-or. You know, either they're emotional and intimate or not. You know, I've read and talked to people about this idea that when you look at the things that have happened in your life,

so much of it is the result of happenstance, right place at the right time, chance encounter with someone. And what you're talking about is a big part of this, that so much of the opportunities that present themselves to us are the result of people we don't really know. It's not the friend that gives us a job. It's a friend of a friend that gives us a job, or something opens up because you meet somebody on the train or the plane or the bus or whatever.

Exactly. And we have much, much research that really shows that that's true. You talk about jobs. In 1973, a sociologist named Mark Granovetter first talked about what he called the strength of weak ties. And Granovetter was the first to show

by interviewing people who had recently gotten jobs, and this is people at all levels managers uh workers you know rank and file people and when he was interviewing them at that time the conventional wisdom was you get a job through connections it's who you know but everybody assumed that the who you know meant you know your father your-uncle Pete, people who had a vested interest in helping you get a job. But every time he interviewed people, all the workers kept saying to him, so I guess you got this through a friend, and they'd say, no, not a friend, an acquaintance. And when he heard it enough times, he started looking at that,

and he realized that these weak ties were really where the information and the job opportunities lay, not in the intimate circles. And since then, many, many studies have been done to show the strength of weak ties. So you're absolutely right. It's not so much chance encounters. We think it's chance encounters, but really it's part of this broader social network that we forget we're part of. Right, because these people are so easy to overlook and forget, but you've pointed out quite clearly that they do matter, that they have a real role to play in your life

and not one to ignore. Melinda Blau has been my guest. Her book is called Consequential Strangers, and you will find a link to her book in the show notes. Thank you, Melinda. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet.

Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person

Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney.

There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. You are bombarded every day by advertising. It is everywhere. It's on your phone, TV, radio, podcasts, billboards, bus benches, shopping carts.

Everywhere. Why? Is it really that effective? Something has changed. And in fact, the changes in the advertising industry are so profound, the whole industry is in turmoil. And that affects all of us because advertising is the fuel for a lot of businesses. And advertising subsidizes things like TV, radio, podcasts. And if it all stops working, then what? Ken Oletta is a journalist

and author, and his latest book is called Frenemies, the Epic Disruption of the Ad Business and Everything Else. Hi, Ken. So explain how the ad business is changing and what it means and why it's important to people. The most used device we have today is no longer our desktop or our laptop. It's our mobile phone. The mobile phone is as personal to us as our wallet or our purse. We don't lend it to someone. And an ad on a mobile phone feels like an interruption. So advertisers say, well, God, what I have to do is figure out something that doesn't feel like an interruption. So advertisers say, well, God, what I have to do is figure out

something that doesn't feel like an interruption. And actually, you know, the more I know about you and I have all this data, I know, you know, what you read, what you watch, what you purchase, what time you wake up, what you eat, et cetera. So the more I can use that information to send message, personalized messages to you that maybe you will find useful about sales or about a discount we can offer you. Maybe that will replace the ad. And you say, well, that's interesting. So, Ken, you're walking down the street. We know you bought at Barney's a sport jacket two months ago. If you walk into Barney's, which is only two blocks away from you,

and I know that because I can locate you on your GPS, if you go into that Barney's today, we'll give you 20% off on that sport jacket. So the question is, how will I respond to that? Will Ken say, hey, that's great, that's a real discount, that's a service to me? Or will Ken say, how the hell do you know so much about me? What about my privacy? And that's a fundamental question in the future, privacy. From the consumer point of view, though, I don't know how people respond to that message from Barney's. I find them annoying because usually they come right after I've left Barney's and I

was just there. Why didn't you give me the deal 20 minutes ago? And then for the next five days, I see all these ads for Barney's, and I'm not going there anymore because... You want to kill, right? Yeah. And there has always been, I guess, that fight with the consumer that, you know, a little advertising is good, but it's easy to cross the line, and then people just hate it. And there's this whole

movement of how do we block the ads? Let's fast forward over the commercials. Let's get rid of this. And you look at the data, 20% of people have a cell phone in the U.S. block ads. They use an ad blocker. And in Western Europe, it's one third of people who use an ad blocker. Or you look at, you mentioned skipping the ads, 55% of the people who record programs skip the ads when they watch those programs. I mean, that's stunning. So people are basically voting how they feel about advertising in that. And so they're empowered to actually kill the ads. But when they kill the ads, they kill more than just the ads. Sure, because if they're not watching the commercials that are basically supporting those TV shows, those TV shows will go away.

Absolutely right. And then you look at something like things that accustom us to watch things without ads, like Netflix. Netflix has no ads. It not only has no ads, but it changes the way we view television. For instance, I don't have to wait until 9 o'clock to watch a show, as the network wants me to do. I can watch it when I want. By the way, I can watch as much as I want.

I don't have to wait a week to watch the second episode. And third, I can watch it without commercial interruption. And so it trains a whole generation of people to think of television in a very different way and television without advertising. And that's what Amazon does, not just Netflix. And that's what Apple TV is doing and YouTube does. And that becomes a big deal. Now, they're a subscription model, and people can do that, but in part they do that by

relying less on cable. So people do the skinny bundle of cable and decrease the amount of money they spend on cable and put a little more into the Netflix. It does seem, though, and I don't know what the statistics are, that I'm bombarded by far more advertising messages today than I used to be. So I get the sense that everything is fine because these advertisers keep spending money to come at me, so it must be working. But they're frantic. They're basically just throwing stuff up against the wall and seeing what sticks.

And a lot of those ads are just ineffective. I mean, you're bombarded by roughly 5,000 ad messages a day. And the proliferation of different platforms means that there are many more places where those ads can appear, but you pay much less attention to them. I mean, Facebook has done studies that say that if you do a video ad on Facebook, if you don't capture someone's attention in the first two seconds, they will tune out. And two seconds? Oh my God, how do you do that? But it seems right, doesn't it? If you're the viewer, you think, you've got two seconds

and I'm moving on. Yeah, and in fact, increasingly we do move on, and we're annoyed by those interruptions. And we get more and more annoyed. I mean, I spent many, many years in the radio business before doing the podcast, and one of the big complaints about radio has always been there's so many commercials. And when I was a disc jockey back in my day, you know, maybe you would play four commercials in a row. I now hear 10, 12 commercials nonstop, back to back in a row. And if you're spoiled, having watched Netflix or Amazon or YouTube, where you don't have to watch

commercials, you say, my God, I can't stand them. Actually, it makes you more angry with the commercials because you've been spoiled by the fact that you don't have to watch them in other places. And it's a real problem. And so what do they do? Then the advertisers, the agencies, and the clients, they say, well, wait, we have to do different things. Hey, what if we did six-second commercials instead of 30-second or one-minute commercials? And think about that. So let's say you take a two-minute block, an advertising block of two minutes

that normally would be four commercials, four 30-minute, 30-second commercials, or two one-minute commercials. But let's say you take that two-minute block and you do each six-second ad, so you have 20 ads within two minutes. Would you like to be the seventh or eighth six-second ad? I mean, sandwiched in between that? It's kind of another pipe dream. It ain't going to happen. It ain't going to work.

You talked earlier about your Barney's example and asked the question, and I'd like to know what the answer is if you know it, and that is, generally, when people get those messages that, hey, if you go in today, you'll get 20% off because we know where you are and we know where you like to shop, do people generally like that, or do people generally find that intrusive? I don't think we know enough yet. I think this is something that is just coming online now and in a much more aggressive way than it has in the past, because in part because of the desperation, the advertisers are desperate to figure out

what the hell will work here. And they don't quite know. So they're literally trying lots of different things. They're trying to figure out how do we entice you to pay attention to us and not feel like we're intruding or interrupting you. And they're going to try lots of different things in that regard, including basically the equivalent of a discount. 20% sounds pretty good. It sounds like a lot. On the other hand, if you just bought a sport jacket, why don't you

buy another one, even with the 20% discount? Right. Well, but that's the coupon mentality always. When you go to the grocery store and you buy 10 frozen dinners, you walk out of the store with a coupon for more frozen

dinners. Well, I just bought 10. I don store with a coupon for more frozen dinners. Well, I just bought 10. I don't need a coupon for more frozen. And you're giving me a coupon as I'm leaving the store. I don't need it. But, you know, then what if they say instead of that frozen dinner coupon or the sport jacket coupon, what if they say, how about a free ticket to a Paul Simon concert? I mean, there are things, or how about, you know, we'll give you free this for a month or something.

They're going to try lots of different things that they haven't tried yet to try and corral you to buy their product. And is this on its way to a new norm, or is this frantic, let's try everything, just going to keep continuing? I think it will keep continuing. Basically, if you think about it, they're kids throwing spaghetti against the wall

and seeing what sticks. And throw more spaghetti. Let's just see what sticks. We don't know what works. This is a new world, and we're trying to figure it out. And so we'll experiment. The truth is, that's what they have to do.

I'm sure there are people, and I've heard this discussed, it's often with people that have been in the advertising business for a long time, that say, despite all this noise, you know what? Direct mail is still very effective for a lot of businesses, and that's very old school. It couldn't be more old school, and yet a lot of people continue to use direct mail. Oh, there's no question about that.

You know, the truth is, if advertising, people argue about how big advertising marketing is. It's between a $1 trillion worldwide to $2 trillion worldwide industry. But only about a quarter of that money is spent on actual advertising as we think of traditional ads. Most of it is spent on what's called marketing. Direct mail is marketing. Public relations is marketing. Design is marketing.

Coupons is marketing. Design is marketing. Coupons is marketing. So increasingly, the bet is that you could reach people not through traditional 30-second or intrusive ads, but other kinds of marketing devices. Now, most people, when they get a direct mail, throw it in the garbage. It doesn't feel personal. But it will be done now through instant messages, for instance. And of course, they have data on you that will be more personalized to you. So maybe, maybe it will gain your attention. Well, one of the vagaries of

advertising that I've always noticed is everybody's definition of success is different. You know, when Coca-Cola runs a commercial, it's not that they're expecting and going to measure how many people run out and buy a Coke in the next 10 minutes, but companies that advertise on podcasts, a lot of them are direct response advertisers that use promo codes. That's exactly what success is going to be determined by. But ultimately, the ultimate measure of success is whether your product is selling or not. And the assumption is that marketing or advertising will help determine. The assumption is that that's an investment, not an expense.

So where does this leave us? I mean, is this just a spectator sport and we'll watch what happens? Or what are the ramifications of all of this? Well, first of all, the consumer is in the driver's seat. I mean, the ultimate frenemy, which is one of the reasons I use that as the title of my book, is the consumer who basically is empowered to say, I accept or I reject your advertising. And so the advertiser needs the consumer, and yet the consumer is the biggest competitor. So that's why the consumer is a frenemy. How that shakes out, this is a

jump-off question. I mean, for instance, one of the basic questions is, will the consumer say that you have too much data on me and I worry about my privacy, and therefore will government respond by saying we have to intrude and pass some legislation to protect privacy the way they have recently in Western Europe? The 28 nations of Western Europe got together and said, people have to opt in to allow companies to use their cookies. In the U.S., you have to opt out in order to prevent people from using the data that's contained in your cookies. And if they change it and made the rule here the way it is in Western Europe,

that would profoundly affect advertising. If, for instance, the government weighs in and says, hey, wait a second, we think that Amazon and Google and Facebook and Apple have too much power. They're monopolies. And we have to pursue them as potential monopolies the way we pursued Microsoft in 2000 and brought them to an antitrust trial. So government is the 800-pound gorilla here, which potentially could decide to become much more aggressive or not. And in part, that depends on how the public feels. If the public is not concerned about their privacy,

as, for instance, many Facebook users were not over the years. It does seem to me, and it's just my experience, that, again, going back to your Barney's example, that'd be nice if that was one of five advertisements I saw all day. But, you know, there are so many websites I go to where I get a couple of pop-ups, 16 banner ads, and yeah, maybe that cool Barney's thing is in there, but it just becomes another annoyance because there's just so much of it. No question. There's advertising fatigue. And advertisers know that, but they have a hard time acting on it because they're so reliant

on advertising and so anxious that advertising may not work, that they have to try it in new ways and therefore besiege you even more with ads. Don't you think that part of this is, you know, it wasn't all that long ago that if you were going to advertise, it was, you know, direct mail, newspapers, radio, TV, and probably one or two things I'm not thinking of. Now there are so many possibilities. We could try Facebook. We could try Google. We could try banner ads.

We could try that. There's no, the rule book's thrown out, and so nobody knows what to do. We can try ads on the sidewalk. Yeah, I've seen those. On buildings. I mean, novelty becomes real important when you're convinced that your business is being threatened. you say, what can we do in a new way that maybe will have an impact? And so different ways of advertising, including on the street, become a real possibility. And on the other hand, if everywhere you turn, you're bombarded by an ad, the danger is that you turn off the public. Well, it is so important, not only for people in the ad business, but for all of us, because the role of advertising is changing, the effectiveness

of advertising is changing, The method is changing. So there's a lot at stake here. Ken Oletta has been my guest. He is author of the book, Frenemies, The Epic Disruption of the Ad Business and Everything Else. And there is a link to his book in the show notes. Thanks, Ken. Thank you, Mike.

Why do some people get motion sickness? Well, mostly it has to do with sensory mismatch, says Robert Stern, a professor of psychology at Penn State, who has studied motion sickness for many, many years. Normally, about a million times a day, the vestibular system, which is the body system that helps regulate balance and motion, and the vision system send corresponding signals to the brain. But when those signals don't match, you get motion sickness. For example, if you're in the back seat of your car, your body is feeling the bumps and the acceleration and the turns that the car is making,

but your eyes don't see them. All they see is the back of the front seat, which doesn't move in relationship to the person and always remains the same distance away. And this is why the driver almost never gets motion sickness, because he is seeing what he is feeling. Aside from the standard medications, Dr. Stern recommends that you sit in the front seat, if possible, and look out the window so you see what you're feeling,

and you feel what you're seeing. Also, it's important not to travel on an empty stomach. Any small, low-fat meal should help. Fat is very bad because fat and grease, that helps bring about changes in the body that can contribute to the development of nausea. And that is something you should know. Reviews are always appreciated. Wherever you listen to podcasts, you can probably leave a review on iTunes or Stitcher or tune in wherever you listen. Just take a moment and review this podcast. I'm Mike Carruthers.

Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. shows every week designed to entertain and engage and, you know, possibly enrage you. And don't blame me. We dive deep into listeners' questions, offering advice that's funny, relatable, and real. Whether you're dealing with relationship drama or you just need a friend's perspective, we've got you. Then switch gears with But Am I Wrong?, which is for listeners who didn't take our advice and want to know if they are the villains in the situation. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events and present situations that we might even be wrong in our lives. Spoiler alert, we are actually quite literally never wrong. But wait, there's more. Check out See You Next Tuesday, where we reveal the juicy results from our listener polls from But Am I Wrong? And don't miss Fisting Friday, where we catch up, chat about pop culture, TV and movies. It's the perfect way to kick off your

weekend. So if you're looking for a podcast that feels like a chat with your besties, listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a co-founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lightning, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla

who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. During her journey, Isla meets new friends, including King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, and learns valuable life lessons with every quest, sword fight, and dragon ride. Positive and uplifting stories remind us all about the importance of kindness, friendship, honesty, and positivity. Join me and an all-star cast of actors, including Liam Neeson, Emily Blunt, Kristen Bell, Chris Hemsworth, among many others, in welcoming the Search for the Silver Lining podcast to the Go Kid Go network by listening today. Look for the Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.